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Killing Competition? Yes, Really.

medicine.jpgOne member of our talented stable of writers here at TMV, Marc Pascal, published a long, detailed column on the health care debate yesterday which raises many questions currently being debated around the nation. Having taken such time and care to do so, I feel it only appropriate that a few of these points receive a full response.

Unfortunately, Marc falls into the all too common usage of phrases which I see popping up all across the web in these and other debates, wherein the author begins an assertion by saying “Some falsely claim…” or “Others facetiously argue..” This is nothing more than a modern remake of the old, evangelical style of patter wherein the preacher says, “I’m sure we can all agree…” and then goes on to say something which is patently outrageous to a portion of the listeners. It does nothing to advance rational debate when you start out by calling the person who holds a different opinion a liar. But on to some specifics.

Is the private health insurance market really competitive? Should it even be based on free-market principles? Several studies have shown that in most cases across the U.S. just one or two private insurance companies dominate any particular region or state.

How this tired argument began is beyond me, but I can personally attest that the consulting company I do a lot of work for (and through whom I get my very satisfactory health care coverage) has changed providers three times in the last seven years. It’s a pain in the butt at times, having to fill out new forms, change cards, etc. but they did it to keep getting the best rate possible and provide us with the best rates. The competition is out there. Yes, many states have one or two companies holding a lion’s share of the business, but that is precisely because of the free market, not in spite of it. The ones who operate the most efficiently and offer the best price while delivering an acceptable product will lead the market. Thus it has always been. This argument about how there is no competition in the insurance industry is ridiculous on its face. If that were true we wouldn’t be watching insurance commercials on our televisions 24/7.

Some other argue further that millions of young individuals who consider themselves indestructible refuse to buy insurance and that fact distorts the very notion of risk-spreading inherent with private insurance… Others facetiously argue, including private health insurance companies, that if these young indestructible individuals were required to buy insurance, many of the systemic financial problems would go away.

This one really deserves a blue ribbon. In reverse order, let’s first recognize that Republicans are not generally the ones saying the government should force these “indestructible youths” to have insurance… the Democrats are. But by all means go find the Republicans who are. You hold ‘em down and I’ll draw cat whiskers on their faces with an indelible marker. The indestructible youth argument comes up when we discuss the vastly overinflated numbers of “desperate people without health care” which so many Democrats quote. (”Falsely” saying that it’s 38, 42 or even 51 million when, in reality, it’s probably somewhere between 10 and 15 million who truly can NOT afford, want it badly and could use a hand from the government.) They are generally young, single or married without children couples who don’t want to spend the money for something they don’t believe they are likely to need. I see it in our company and many other places. If you don’t, then you don’t get out among the work force much. The largest of the inflated numbers also include illegal aliens. Perhaps you feel that those who pay taxes inside of the system are obligated to pay for insurance for those who do not participate as citizens, but I do not. That’s an argument for another day, however.

Many on the right believe that any activity, including the social and economic needs of the general public that cannot be met by a private for-profit company, must simply be ignored.

Talk about offensive strawmen! And you guys complain about the tone coming from conservatives on the health care debate? A lot of this nonsense comes down to a fundamental disagreement (and misunderstanding on the part of bureaucratic liberals) as to whether or not health care is a “right” and a failure to grasp the essential definition of what insurance is and how it works. For more on this, see Ed Morrissey’s guest post on this today here at TMV. Your comments about “only doing things with the expectation of future profit” as some sort of evil empire thinking demonstrates this fundamental disconnect in understanding between the concept of rights and consumer services which fill needs. Health care is not like free speech or religious beliefs. There isn’t a free, inexhaustible supply of it out there someplace. It has to be delivered and it has to be paid for. And if you don’t want the government to do it (which I don’t) then there has to be a profit incentive for private enterprise to provide it.

And then there’s this:

Others have facetiously tried to argue that healthcare is not that important to even be considered a civil right for every human being.

This, of course, brings us to the title and essential thrust of the original article. Does government run, owned and operated health insurance kill competition and drive the private industry out of business? Of course it does, and the number of people who keep trying to foist this argument off on us is staggering. A for profit operation will always, always, always lose out to a not for profit operation which not only doesn’t need to make a profit but can mandate what it’s willing to pay, even if that payment doesn’t cover costs.

Obama’s endless droning about, “If you like your health plan, you keep your health plan” is maddening to those of us who actually stop to think about it. I 100% agree that nobody is talking about having the government come and forcibly take away your private health insurance options. They don’t need to. If “competition” from a non-profit government plan drives them all out of business, there’s simply no other option left. This should be obvious to a third grader.

[A] public option does not require a public or quasi-governmental entity to exist. I mentioned in a prior post that a nationally required and regulation minimum health insurance plan could be offered by each private healthcare company to the general public. The premiums, coverages and patient protections would all be set by law.

Where does one even begin when trying to address such “logic?” Thankfully, the disastrous, so-called “public option” appears to be dead, but what you’re talking about as a replacement is top-down price control by the government which has always, uniformly proved disastrous. So the government is going to tell private industry what products it must provide, who it must provide them to, and what they can charge for it, regardless of the costs incurred by the company? If we haven’t been able to explain the inherent folly in such a plan by now, I doubt I will be able to here.

Many of the angry older white people screaming at Town Hall Healthcare meetings are simply sore losers who cannot accept the 2008 election results.

If you can’t construct a coherent argument against the message, attack the messenger. Check.

Democrats must understand that Republicans are masters of appealing to the base emotions of humans, and misleading many gullible and uneducated people. They must be prepared to enact healthcare, financial, environmental and infrastructure reforms with no bipartisan support. The discredited policies of Republicans have so damaged this country that it will take years to dig ourselves out of the deep pit in which they have dumped the country.

Republicans, and an increasing majority of independents from all recent polls, must understand and remind themselves that Democrats are masters of pushing populist, rainbow strewn promises where the government will solve everyone’s problems and spend money to do so like there is no tomorrow, and then turn around and tax you into oblivion as the economy collapses under the weight of their folly. They’ve done it each time they’ve obtained unbridled power in living memory and we always kick them out shortly thereafter, and they’re not acting any differently now.

See? Doesn’t sound any more pleasant when the other side does it either, does it? That kind of insulting rhetoric doesn’t advance the debate. It shuts it down. Oh… and by all means, please bring up the meme about how the last time we had a surplus and the government ran somewhat efficiently was under Bill Clinton. And then we will ask you who was in charge of Congress (and therefore, by constitutional definition, the public purse) at the time. I use that argument myself on a regular basis, except it is to argue the fact that our government runs best when the political parties share power, with one holding the executive and one the legislative. Whenever we give one of them total control for too long, things go off the rails in one policy area or another. When we gave it to the Republicans, foreign policy and social liberty issues went to hell in a handbasket. When we give it to the Democrats the economy swirls to the bottom of the drain. This is America in the modern era. Get used to it.

  • Jcavhs
    "Does government run, owned and operated health insurance kill competition and drive the private industry out of business? Of course it does, and the number of people who keep trying to foist this argument off on us is staggering. A for profit operation will always, always, always lose out to a not for profit operation which not only doesn’t need to make a profit but can mandate what it’s willing to pay, even if that payment doesn’t cover costs."

    Then shouldn't non-profit insurance plans have driven out of business all for profit insurance companies? Plus, in a free market if you can't compete then you should exit the market. If a company (whether run by the government or a non-profit organization) is willing to accept no profits (which is actually what should occur in a perfectly competitive market place) and can offer a lower price then a free market would say let them go under.

    In economic theory the government is there to address market failures, which includes adjusting for externalities that are not accounted for in the private market. Everyone having access to health care has positive societal externalities - less bankruptcies, less government paid visits to the E.R, etc. The private market won't address them because the benefits are societal and not profit driven. Thus the government should step in to address this market failure. The government is a market participant, that is why they are the consumer of last resort in economic downturns, why they regulate and why they provide various services such as Medicare, emergency responders, roads, etc.

    The argument that the private market can do everything better is flawed. The idea of a perfectly efficient market place is based on numerous assumptions that don't hold in reality. Such as perfect information between parties, no transaction restrictions (excluding pre-existing conditions would violate that), perfectly competitive marketplace, etc. The market has failed - we have significant numbers of people unable to qualify and/or afford health insurance and health care. When the market fails, the government should step in.
  • HemmD
    jazz

    I believe you suffer from selective concern.

    The holy competition you herald has resulted in private health industry profits rising by over 400% since 2001. Sounds to me like competition isn't so great at reducing cost for customers.

    If you're for competition, why aren't you tearing up the intertubes with outrage that drug companies have gotten laws passed that make it illegal to import drugs from Canada?
    Imported prescription drugs sell for up to 50 percent cheaper in Canada than the United States. The very drugs made here and exported to Canada cannot be re-imported by consumers at half the cost.

    When does your form of competition start translating into consumer savings and not industry profits?
  • CStanley
    Thanks for this rebuttal of Marc's post, Jazz. I read it and thought about responding but my head was about to explode- you expressed just about everything I wanted to say but wasn't able to since I was so irritated and exasperated by what he had written.

    I do agree a bit with Hemm though, and disagree with you Jazz, on the degree of competitiveness in the insurance market. You're small company might be doing what is necessary to keep their insurance companies honest, but most large employers actually self insure now and they don't shop around year to year to change the companies that they contract with. Many of us are pretty well stuck with what we've got, and it's a big problem. Plus, when people change jobs they can hardly be picky enough to decline one job offer in favor of a different one which might offer a health insurance package that would better suit their individual needs.
  • shannonlee
    My question is...why are other countries so much smarter than America? There are proven examples that private and public companies can compete within the same country. I've lived in one of those countries and I choose the public insurance.

    This whole argument that it can't be done makes us sound like a bunch of ignorant quitters.

    On one side we have weak liberals that refuse to take political risk.
    On the other side we have weak conservatives that think we are unable (IMO too stupid) to come up with a health care system that provides both private and public options.
  • CStanley
    shannonlee, I don't think it's a matter of stupidity. We currently have an example of a competitive environment between traditional Medicare and the private insurers who provide Medicare plus plans. I don't know that this system is working out perfectly and I know a lot of Dems want to end it- but it seems to me that that's the kind of dual system that a lot of the other countries have- basic care guaranteed by the public plan, with enhancements available as private options. They're not really competing but instead have been set up with different models that can coexist and survive almost symbiotically.

    But that's when these systems have been purposefully structured as a side by side relationship, so that the public plan would be enhanced by the private options and not have the structure of mandates and cost subsidization that will strangle the private market which is competing for the same customers, offering the same products.

    The thing that a lot of conservatives recognize is that not only are those kinds of competition strangling provisions evident in the bills that have come out of committees, but it's also self evident that they would be. What would the point of a public option be if it didn't attempt to force private insurers to cover all preexisting conditions, and set prices low enough to help cover more people who can't afford the current rates? These are even the stated goals of the proponents of the public option- to 'keep the insurance companies honest'. But mandating those things and inserting pressure to provide evverything to everyone at lower than market price is a guarantee that the only provider that can survive is the one that can run on a permanent deficit.
  • Almoderate
    Free market is a nice concept if we lived in a perfect world. Unfortunately, greed and laziness exist in this world, and the result-- should we leave it without restriction-- will be consumers paying more money for less product and/or service. If we were discussing something like the car industry, I'd be less likely to have an issue with this, but we're talking about leaving life and death decisions in the hands of a private corporation who's best interests are to provide you with the least amount of care for the most amount of money.

    You do a good job arguing for the interests of the vendor, but trust me when I say they are more than capable of standing up for themselves. They have very nicely paid lobbyists to represent themselves in Washington, and they can pay for commercials to convey those interests to the general public. What I don't see is how you argue for what benefits ME as the consumer, or more importantly, as the patient.

    If I can spend less money for better care (as other countries enjoy), OF COURSE it's going to hurt the health insurance industry's profits. That is indeed a no brainer. But you know what? I'm not the health insurance industry, and their profits are not more important to me than my family's health. I'm sorry, but their profits just aren't that high on my list of priorities.

    I'm sure that having socialized police protection hurts the profits of private security services. I'm sure that having socialized fire departments hurts the profits of the indoor sprinkler system industry. I'm sure that having socialized schools hurts the profits of private tutors and private schools. And even so, these industries still manage to survive against their socialized counterparts. Sure, they don't make as much money as they probably would otherwise, but some things are just more important than a corporate profit.
  • hilarys
    We should definitely be spending more on public education.
  • carolinagirl74
    You are right, we do not live in a perfect world. That is such a good point about greed adn laziness. I totally agree. However, you think insurance companies are greedy and not the US Government? I am sorry, is our government run only by those who are moral and righteous and not for their own gain? Just a thought. And, as far as competition. Yes. Some companies do stick with the same insurance companies year after year. However, I can quit my job any time I want and get another job. It is, after all, a free country for now. I, along with coworkers, can complain and have benefits changed or companies changed if the movement is strong enough. Health care is not free. It is not a right. I like being able to have the best technology money can buy. If you think that other countries are that much smarter, then why are we the place everyone comes to for health care? If you really believe that, please, by all means, move. I don't want you here.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    What a crock. Jazz betrays the entire point of his rant when he simply states that he does not want government involved in providing health care. Everything else derives from his own personal prejudice of "Government evil, government bad.". To be specific he states:

    And if you don’t want the government to do it (which I don’t) then there has to be a profit incentive for private enterprise to provide it.


    So if they are threatened in their profit motive they just tell the customer that they've found a good excuse to cut them off with no more benefits (See "recission".) and the hell with everything else. The ideological prejudices of the American conservative movement should keep millions of people unable to get affordable health care.
  • shannonlee
    CStanley, thanks for your response. While I understand what you're saying and do not support the current bills, in their current state, being worked on in Congress, I know we are capable of creating a public option that doesn't strangle private industry. It can be done...it has been done.

    CG, health care is a right if we as a society decide to make it a right. If most Americans believe it should be an American right, a right that we are willing to pay for...then it should be. That is the whole point of democracy. Our "rights" are only legal rights...and these rights can be taken away or added to at any time. We are not the only place people travel to for health care...Americans travel out of our country for health care all of the time. Believe me...if nothing changes, in another ten years, Americans will be traveling to India and China for health care.

    "If you really believe that, please, by all means, move. I don't want you here"
    And this is just a sad statement...
  • pachigordo
    Hi Jazz. I'm glad I got you and CStanley all worked up with my prior post of a similar name. The only person who likes change is a wet baby. Arguing today to preserve the current healthcare system is akin to 100 years ago arguing against automobiles because there would be so many unemployed yet previously competitive blacksmiths with those excess horses.

    I gave up my interest in the public option back in June when I read several articles discussing various foreign healthcare systems in depth. I then researched the Swiss system and wrote a favorable post on 8/11/09, which was largely ignored by the readership. However, I was merely ahead of my time as Paul Krugman has reluctantly endorsed the same system either today or yesterday in the New York Times. Politically the public option isn't going anywhere and the Swiss system is the best compromise.

    You misquoted me and twisted my words but I'll let that pass. I'm guilty of that too and we're all human. But at least I avoid silly polls that change each day and can easily be twisted out of context. I'm sorry that I feel that too many Americans are congenitally ignorant, but history and facts prove me correct.

    My problem with likely governmental subsidies for those who can't afford private health insurance is that it will merely prop up a woefully inefficient and wasteful private healthcare insurance system. If most private insurers stated that a minimum national healthcare policy for a family of 4 would cost $1,500 a month, most Americans will not be able to afford this figure without some subsidies or tax credits. Of course this figure would contain overhead for marketing, paperwork processing, and executive bonuses and shareholder profits. After a few years, won't the public start wondering why we can't do it for less? We will then go back to the argument I made that some things are so important to people and society that preserving the private sector be damned.

    Private insurance companies with all their wealth and influence have been completely unable to curb the growth in Medical costs or impose procedures that would save money. You can see some of the good articles by mikkel from Cleveland, and other non-TMV sources for examples. They can't even agree on one uniform claims form to save money for everyone in the system. That is really pathetic and greatly reduces my trust in this entire industry.

    How do you propose we address controlling costs to help both the public (Medicare/Medicaid) and the private sector (everyone else)? Furthermore, how do we cover all the insured (whatever that disputed number turns out to be)?

    I do not think the Administration and many Democrats should abandon the public option until they work out another good alternative for universal coverage and cost controlling purposes. One should never negotiate with oneself - that is part of the natural give and take of politics. I further agree that healthcare should be passed by any minimum method (including reconciliation) possible.

    Elections have consequences and President Obama and the Democrats won over whatever crap the Republicans presented. They will be judged on what they accomplish, NOT based on how much they compromise to win 1 or 2 opposition votes. Essentially ALL Republican ideas are worthless at this time considering the messes they created in the past. The wing-nuts at the town hall meetings are free to shoot themselves in their feet but they bring NOTHING to an intelligent discourse.

    If anyone doesn't like what happens in healthcare and other legislation, then they can go vote for the opposition in 2010. Elections are the only reliable polls that also pass constitutional muster.

    Certainly President Bush and the Republicans didn't care less what the opposition said about even more tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, going to war in 2 foreign countries, or passing a Medicare Prescription Drug plan that was a financial giveaway to big pharaceutical companies. All's fair in love and war - and U.S. politics.

    Best regards from your fellow blogger in Phoenix - MP
  • davesnothere
    A market works BECAUSE it takes into account laziness and greed, while utopian government based solutions don't. The "profit motive" doesn't cause sellers to raise prices, it causes them to lower costs, because raising prices above market price reduces revenues. If a market isn't working properly - and the health insurance market isn't - the solution is to increase market efficiency, not to replace it with a government regulation (i.e., with commissioners who tell you what you can buy and how much you can pay for it). Get rid of employer provided insurance; make it personal. Give tax breaks to incentivize its purchase. Provide "food stamp" type subsidies for low income people. The country feeds itself on a private market for food because that market works very efficiently. Efficiency in the health insurance market can be achieved, but massive government intervention has NEVER improved the efficiency of any market.
  • You know, Marc, aside from the fact that you keep using insulting rhetoric about Republicans while wringing your hands and claiming to want more civility, I'll let the rest of your comments pass except one. You claimed, "You misquoted me and twisted my words but I'll let that pass."

    Please note that I copy/pasted that last line. I also managed to figure out how to use the copy/paste function on my computer for my quotes from your previous article. Please point out the area where I misquoted you or apologize. One or the other.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    "If you think that other countries are that much smarter, then why are we the place everyone comes to for health care?"

    They don't. This is a lie or proof of ignorance. Those days are past, CG.
  • ebj
    My Mother still thinks that W lowered her social security (and will tell anyone whether or not they want to listen).

    The Dems have been whipping up seniors with half truths for decades. Now, with a bill that explicitly calls for Medicare cuts, Grandma is getting worked up and the Dems scream 'foul'? Dude, maybe Grandma is susceptible to 'scaring' because you've been ringing her bell so long with cries of Republicans trying to take away Social Security and Medicare that she now really believes in the boogeyman. Except it's Boogeyman (D), instead of the usual Boogeyman (R).
  • pachigordo
    Sorry Jazz you don't like my posts or comments but you and many on the right live in a delusional world. There is no real free market anywhere in the U.S., unless you look at local or regional markets in certain industries. There are only large monopolistic corporations in the healthcare, financial, transportation, energy, and other fields. They artificially dictate the market and bribe politicians to keep it that way. Unless you are a shareholder or top executive of a private health insurance company, you are acting as a foolish stooge to defend them when their interests are clearly selfish, greedy, wasteful and contrary to the public good. I will never apologize for using harsh tones - that is my 1st Amendment rights. However, if you and the other founders prefer that I no longer post on TMV, I will gladly go elsewhere. You and the rest of the moronic conservative movement in the U.S. had better have a tough skin, my lawyering past makes me one f**k**g bastard and I take crap from no one. Good luck and good bye to TMV - MP in PHX
  • flint41
    I think a lot of you are badly mistaken in the notion that eliminating insurer profits will have a significant effect on the cost of insurance coverage. Just how many of you have actually reviewed the stats for health insurer profitability? They had a very good year in 2007, and a decent year in 2008. The years prior to that, though, were quite dismal. Insurance is a business of ups and downs. And how do you account for the rates charged by the tax-exempt non-profits (e.g., Blue Cross/Blue Shield)? Are we to believe that they are engaged in some sort unholy price-fixing conspiracy? And how on earth that large employers are spending fortunes to self-insure advance the argument?

    The notion that there is no competition among insurers is poppycock. Deciding among competing proposals was always a major concern, everywhere I have worked.

    The left has worked itself into a collectivist frenzy, the better to preen themselves on playing Meathead to our Archie Bunkers, and they will simply make up whatever "facts" support their pretensions. Ultimately, it's all about "feelgood."
  • "However, if you and the other founders prefer that I no longer post on TMV, I will gladly go elsewhere. You and the rest of the moronic conservative movement in the U.S. had better have a tough skin, my lawyering past makes me one f**k**g bastard and I take crap from no one. Good luck and good bye to TMV - MP in PHX"

    So if anyone has a different opinion and takes you to task for your points, you take your ball and go home. Ok, fine. I hope you don't quit on your "lawyering" clients as quickly as you quit on a public debate over policy. Best of luck.
  • FreedomFan
    "Our "rights" are only legal rights...and these rights can be taken away or added to at any time."
    -ShannonLee

    No our rights are endowed by the Creator and are not subject to the whims of men:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."
    -U.S. Declaration of Independence

    Our rights cannot be taken away by the government, because they were not granted by the government. The purpose of the Constitution is to protect citizens from their government.

    Health care is not a "right"; it is a service provided by one person to another.

    To suggest that health care is a "right" is to suggest that medical providers are slaves.
  • FreedomFan
    "A market works BECAUSE it takes into account laziness and greed, while utopian government based solutions don't. The "profit motive" doesn't cause sellers to raise prices, it causes them to lower costs, because raising prices above market price reduces revenues. If a market isn't working properly - and the health insurance market isn't - the solution is to increase market efficiency, not to replace it with a government regulation "
    -davesnothere

    Bravo.

    As Reagan said, blaming an economic recession on "greed" makes about as much sense as blaming a plane crash on "gravity".
  • CStanley
    Gosh, MP, if you're still reading, it certainly wasn't my intent to try to drive you away. I simply reacted to the way you assume a lot of negative attributes to people who just hold opinions which aren't the same as yours.

    I actually happen to agree with most of your last comment to Jazz about the near monopoly condition in so many of our industries. I just don't believe that throwing up our hands and saying that this means that the industries need to be publicly run is the answer. The monopoly conditions didn't happen in a vaccuum, and in many instances there were points where the govt could have intervened (and should have, IMO) but didn't and many other instances where the govt did intervene in ways that contributed to the dominance of megacorporations, and those policies can and should be reversed.

    I've been saying for some time now that I wish the GOP would take on a pro-entrepreneur platform and stop opposing ALL business regulation- just oppose the kind that kills small businesses and startups. Other regulation, including regulating mergers and acquisitions, is the kind of intervention that markets need to keep competition alive and healthy. I think that the economic health of the nation absolutely depends on such a change- but I don't know how we get there from here because neither party will adopt that stance since they're financed by interests that would be harmed by it.,

    I'm just so freaking tired of the canard that conservatives are denying reality or that we think there's no problem with our current market functions. How about asking what our opinions really are, rather than assuming we're idiots?

    At any rate, you certainly have the right to express yourself any way that you choose, but the reactions you get will vary depending on the choices you make. I actually think that Jazz sometimes similarly uses inflammatory tone to make his point, and people call him on it all the time- but he seems to know that when he writes a certain way, people react, and that's part of the give and take.
  • DaGoat
    As is common I get to come in after all the excitement. Oh well.

    On the public option, I understand the concept of providing a competitor to try and drive down insurance rates. To be effective and not shut down the insurance industry, the public option will have to be cheap enough to provide competition yet not so cheap that people will be overly driven to the public option. This means the government will have to design the public option "just right" within a pretty narrow window. Since the government hasn't shown much ability in doing things just right and hitting narrow windows, there should be a healthy skepticism in their managing it with the public option.

    The public option of course will have advantages public plans do not in not having to keep cash reserves, not having to pay taxes and yes not worrying about profits. This means the public option stands a good chance of overpowering the private plans.

    So far the usual response from the left on that possibility seems to be "Good, if they can't compete they deserve to fail!' (ignoring that the reason they failed was that the government loaded the odds against them) or "Good, that means we will then have government-controlled health care!". The second response of course runs counter to the Obama position that he is not looking for government-controlled health care.

    So I really think the left is being a little inconsistent here, maybe even fooling themselves. When they are in favor of an action that may well lead to government-controlled health care, while at the same time saying that isn't their goal, you have to forgive people for being unconvinced. Add to that the widespread view on the left (judging by the people in here anyway) that the government really ought to take over health care anyway, and it's hard to take the public option seriously as anything but a move towards that.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Here is a paper from the American Society of Actuaries that was done in 2005. One of the things it notes is that many of the "voluntarily" uninsured are in fact in that category because while their employers may offer insurance they cannot afford the insurance that is offered. Ignoring these facts and making other assumptions is how the figure of 15,000,000 so beloved by conservatives, comes from. when you do a search on this information the numbers Jazz uses are found almost exclusively on right wing political blogs and news sources. That number is not found anywhere that doesn't have a purely political agenda behind it. Be honest, Jazz. The right wing doesn't give a damn about actually fixing the problems of the system. If they did they wouldn't be so busy making up numbers to make it seem like there is no problem.

    How this tired argument began is beyond me, but I can personally attest that the consulting company I do a lot of work for (and through whom I get my very satisfactory health care coverage) has changed providers three times in the last seven years. It’s a pain in the butt at times, having to fill out new forms, change cards, etc. but they did it to keep getting the best rate possible and provide us with the best rates.

    I work for a small company. Many hours are used every year trying to find the "best" deal available in health insurance. Not because they want to. Because they got a bad case of sticker shock when their current insurer told them how much money they wanted next year. What is the result? A year when things stay the same are a major triumph. Most of the time the result is paying more while receiving less. In fact this is the result the overwhelming majority of the time. The business, like many other businesses winds up with money and time that could be used to benefit the business being used instead to find the less crappy alternative. This is what Jazz either does not recognize or considers to be a triumph of the successful system we have.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    MP:

    I hope you'll reconsider. We need the balance...

    Dorian
  • Jcavhs
    carolinagirl, there is an argument that health care should be a right. "We hold these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Being health is definitely tied to life and pretty much tied to the pursuit of happiness. Not going bankrupt due to health care bills is also tied to that.

    No one things that the US Government is perfect. They are likely as corrupt as any CEO. But their incentives are different. A CEO gets rewarded based on profits in the short term. They have no incentive to build a long term plan because they can get millions of dollars in bonuses now and a golden parachute later. The government may be corrupt but they also don't care about profits. So they can run a health plan that makes absolutely no money and not care. A CEO can't - a CEO needs to make profits. And that is why a government can (not neccessarily will) run a better plan.

    And if health care isn't a right, then I assume you will not be on Medicare when you reach retirement age?
  • "And if health care isn't a right, then I assume you will not be on Medicare when you reach retirement age?"

    Can't speak for carolinagirl, but for myself: You do recognize your own red herring, right? That your question only makes sense if you're also offering to return to carolinagirl all the taxes (with interest) that she's already had to pay into the system?
  • carolinagirl74
    They are likely as corrupt. You have answered my own question. And, there
    is incentive to keep everyone dependent on them so that they can run your
    lives more and more. Actually, Medicare is a prime example of why we
    shouldn't have government health care. Thank you for making my point. And,
    NO. I don't plan on being on medicare.
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