F-22 and F-35, Not Mutually Exclusive
Some of the arguments posed in support of continued F-22 production, both in response to my posts and in the media, attack the F-35 and the F-35 program.
For example, one reader said, in part:
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is no where near being proven. If you would do some serious research you would find that the F-35 program is all about spin and sophistry. Every claim about it being low cost, lethal, stealthy(of any worth) and sustainable, are just that: claims. With little proof to back up the big talk.
The F-35 was never prototyped. The two Joint Strike Fighter candidates in 2001 were not prototypes. They were smoke and mirrors that gave the appearance of a fighter aircraft with little to no war systems in them. They looked like a fighter enough to compete to get the mother of all gold plated defense contracts.
In discussing the Obama administration’s upcoming F-22 procurement decision, I have included the F-35 Lightning II in the discussion exactly for this reason: Rightly or wrongly—as I have stated before—it is one factor being cited by many, explicitly or implicitly, as one that is, or ought to be, included in the equation.
Beyond that, I believe that each of the two fighters has its own mission, roles and capabilities, cost, schedule, advantages and disadvantages, and justification that need to be looked at, yes, critically, comparatively and competitively, but not in a mutually exclusive fashion.
Some have voiced skepticism as to the schedule and reality of the F-35 program—”a pipe dream”.
As I mentioned before, Milcom Monitoring Report mentions as recently as one month ago that “Lockheed Martin’s F-35 production is on schedule and nearing its goal of a 2010 delivery to Eglin Air Force Base. Six F-35’s are now complete and 17 are in production.”
Apparently, two communities also believe that the schedule is real, as there are already both great expectations for the F-35s to arrive and a healthy debate over whether to host them or not:
In a February 6, Aviation Week article, “First F-35 Squadron Plans Detailed“:
The first three squadrons of F-35s – with at least 59 aircraft – will be formed at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., between 2010, when the first aircraft arrives, and mid-2013 when No. 60 is due.
Of the three training squadrons to be stood up, one will be U.S. Air Force with 24 conventional takeoff aircraft, one will be Marine Corps with 20 short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing aircraft and the last, with 15 aircraft, will belong to the Navy.
As part of a two-tier, environmental agreement – after the first 59 aircraft are in place – the Navy and the local community will consider increasing the number of F-35 training aircraft on the base to 113, according to Davis. Along with the integrated pilot school house, all JSF maintenance training will be conducted at Eglin.
The first Marine aircraft arrives in 2011. The fleet is expected to grow at the rate of about one per month. By 2014 the unit also will begin establishing its relationship with the Air Armament Center where the armed service develops its new kinetic and non-kinetic weapons and studies the introduction of new missions. For example, all initial F-35 Block 0.5 aircraft, because of their advanced electronically scanned array radars, will arrive capable of training for cruise-missile defense, Davis says.
If the number of training aircraft isn’t allowed to expand, the Corps will likely establish its own flight training center at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, S.C. The first F-35 operations base will be established by the Marines in 2013, Davis says.
There are to be at least 10 JSF training squadrons formed. The Pentagon is looking at another 156 installations to determine the remaining JSF bases for operations, additional training, depots and combined active-duty/Air National Guard/Reserve units. Production of the F-35 is scheduled to end in 2035.
And at The Pensacola News Journal they were talking concrete, dollars and cents, and numbers of people yesterday:
EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE — U.S. Air Force officials on Friday laid out the time line for the Joint Strike Fighter training program at Eglin Air Force Base.
Construction related to the move should start this fall.
Ferguson said nine construction projects — together worth about $170 million — are in the bidding process, and construction is expected to begin before October. Officials estimate total construction costs at about $250 million.
When it is fully operational, the primary training facility for F-35 aircrew and maintenance is expected to bring 113 aircraft and 4,000 military personnel and 6,000 dependents to the Okaloosa County base.
Finally, with respect to the Marines’ F-35s at Beaufort S.C., The Beaufort Gazette reports on February 6:
Beaufort’s mayor and City Council members say they haven’t heard enough about the military’s newest fighter jet to formally support basing it at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort.
The council declined to sign a resolution Tuesday in support of moving the Joint Strike Fighter, also known as the F-35 Lightning II, to MCAS Beaufort as proposed by the Defense Department.
The resolution, drafted by city staff based upon information from the Lowcountry Economic Network, touted MCAS Beaufort as “an ideal location for the Joint Strike Fighter,” as well as a home for future JSF training facilities. The Defense Department expects to divide 13 JSF squadrons between MCAS Beaufort and MCAS Cherry Point in North Carolina. The units include 10 operational squadrons, two pilot training squadrons and one reserve squadron.
The proposal to base the F-35 at MCAS Beaufort has garnered the support of local, state and federal leaders, including Gov. Mark Sanford and U.S. Rep. Joe Wilson.
Most concerning to council members was the resolution’s support for putting two pilot training squadrons at the air station.
If MCAS Beaufort became an F-35 pilot training center, the number of jets at MCAS Beaufort would decrease from 84 F-18 Hornets to about 40 F-35Bs, but the daily jet traffic at the air station likely would increase.
As I said, both great expectations and a healthy debate—as it should be.
F-35 Photo by Lockheed Martin
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f22 > f35 for now
As you correctly imply: It is improper argument to attack F-35 as a fantastic multi-role aircraft of the next 35 years starting with its Operational deployment in 2013-15 in the AF, MC, and Navy. It will significantly outperform in speed, range, maintainability and maneuverability the jets it replaces: F-16, F-18, AV-8, F-111 and A-10. For only slightly more cost than these 4th Gen jets cost today it will also give us the necessary quality to survive the modern air war: stealth. However, that said, those (ATL, PAE, DepSecDef) who falsely argue that the F-35 can do the Air Superiority mission of the F-22 are either ignorant or in denial: the very Joint Requirements document that the F-35 was designed around calls for adequate numbers of the F-22 to perform the Air Superiority mission! As previous CSAFs and the current CSAF have said–the F-35 will defend itself well in air-to-air battle against 4th Gen threat fighters out there today, but IF outnumbered by these jets or when up against the new 5th gen fighters (XXJ and T-50) that the Chinese and Russians will field in 8-10 years, we and our allies will definitley NEED adequate numbers of the F-22 flying topcover for the F-35 force, performing the Air Superiority mission, or things will turn out poorly.
Thanks for the comments MW. I agree with most of your points. I just wish that funding wasn't so tight.
Dorian
Add to this combat requirements issue a very thoughtful Atlantic magazine article out yesterday about Air Superiority in the first Gulf War and what is required now: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force Think about the implications of our potential enemies out there having aircraft superior to our F-15/16/18. Then think that if outnumbered 2:1 against the very latest 4th Gen threat aircraft, the F-35 would only enjoy a 3:1 kill exchange ratio while the F-22 will enjoy a 30:1 kill exchange ratio. More F-22s now means more Air Superiority (or Air Dominance) for the next 30 years and enables the US/Allied F-35s the ability to swarm the strategic/tactical target sets as they were originally designed to do.
Gah I find the f-22, f35 as prof of american money talks n bullshit walks. Russia almost always do it first/better & cheaper.
Yep the f22 is impressive so is f35. But they are way late. And now with the “russian cold war” similar politics we cant be sure what they have in their pocket. Just look at the little djonk they showed up when americans continued their rocket shield plans. Which came as a complete chock to American agencies. And yes it had been sailing the seas.
I'm no russian fan in fact my country fought against them in WWII just a small european country. Still able to secure our independence from the big bear.
But their war machine has historically outperformed the american. Soviet fell… so did their war machine, now with Putin on the throne I don't doubt one second that they are back in business.
Well Putin is not officially on the throne any more. But Mother Russia isn't that official anymore.
“Russia almost always do it first/better & cheaper.” Really? How so? Provide examples of what Russia (or the Soviet Union) has done first/better & cheaper. What aircraft does Russia have with the similiar characteristics of the worlds First Fifth Generation Fighter, the F-22?
“Just look at the little djonk(?) they showed up when americans continued their rocket shield plans.” To what are you refering? Are you referring to how the Russians threatened our allies in Poland when the Polish people asked to be the first country to receive the Missle Defense System? What “non-hostile” Nation would threaten a neighbor with Nuclear War when the neighboring country simply wants a weapon system that is DEFENSIVE ONLY?
“But their war machine has historically outperformed the american.” Again, where is the evidence to support your conclusion? Where is this data? One has but to look at the Russian Navy compared to the United States Navy. There is NO comparison. The Nimitz Class carriers allow the United States to put an American Airfield along with the related support craft in ANY OCEAN ALONG ANY COAST ON THIS PLANET. The sheer force projection abilities of the United States Military is second to none. Whether you look at the technology fielded by our Armed Forces, whether it be the training of our Armed Forces (of which we gladly share with our allies at places like Nellis Air Force Base, NV, Fort Benning, GA, Fort Bragg, NC, etc.), the amount of money we spend to refine our weapons to minimize collateral damage, the evolving technologies that we develop (Stealth, Global Hawk, HULC, etc.) as we continually push the technological envelope of human understanding is second to none. I witnessed first hand how American military power easily handled the alleged “Powerful Military” of Iraq and their many Soviet made weapon systems.
Russia is trying to use their Oil Wealth to rebuild & retool their military. They're anxious (particularly the KGB's own, Mr.Putin) to bring the Russian Bear out of hibernation. The people of Georgia can attest to this fact. How we deal with the Russian threat or, more importantly, how we stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies in the new, young democracies that have risen from behind the Rusty Curtain will affect the lives of millions both now and those yet to be born. Russia is eager to reestablish itself as a power to be reckoned with, however for the time being, that bear doesn't have any teeth.
djonk is a old chinees “ship” and I'm referring to their stealth ship.
Just look at ti Russian had a more successful space program. Yeah US went to moon first and that is true. But where did Sovjet send their probes. They where exploring Venus similarly to America exploring now decades later Mars. It is there just Google it. Their rocket and missile tech was at that time more powerful. Their airplanes have been more powerful. As I said that is not the present situation. But if they pulled of a stealth ship what else have they pulled of in secret.
Just check at the Mig 29 an old aircraft. Having many of the qualities of US 5th gen even not being a 5th gen plane it self. What about radar. I don't know for now but the radar system in Soviet planes used to be built without transistors. You laugh. But such a radar survives a electromagnetic shock wave. If you want to know how to produce a electromagnetic shock wave, there is several, but most efficient which could be used in warfare is to blow a nuke in space.
Why was the F15 built; it was built to meet the russian Mig-25, not comparable aircrafts though. The Mig however gets close to SR-71 speeds.
eg. check this outhttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread227983/pg1
spacehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program
Can't believe I missed this posting. Are you HONESTLY trying to compare the Soviet Union exploring Venus years ago to our current Mars missions? Do you know NOTHING about NASA's history? Not real familiar with the NASA Mariner missions? Obviously not if you are making comments like “Russian had a more successful space program.” Tell you what, do some research on the U.S.Military's Stealth Programs, NASA's exploration history, then get back to me. You've got quite a bit to learn.