Manufacturing Female Victimhood, Marginalizing Vulnerable Men

Female Rapists, versus, the Helpless Female and the Demonic Male: One of the more taboo areas in modern culture. My radio co-host Typhon Blue wrote a classic essay on the subject earlier this year, and I have received her permission to reprint it here. I do so with pride.–DE

Toxic victim-consciousness is the process by which women are made into class “acted upon” by emphasizing a disproportionate victimhood where none actually exists or isn’t proven.

In “Women Do Not Benefit: The Science,” I outlined how toxic victimhood limits women and socializes them to undermine their own achievements. Toxic victimhood promotes the perception that women are “acted upon” rather than actors. When a society is promoting toxic victimhood, there is no need to limit women overtly through legal, financial or social restrictions. Instead women will limit themselves through their own mental foot-binding.

Here I will look at a recent and very successful effort to manufacture toxic female victimhood whole-cloth, the CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey.

The much publicized figure on rape from this survey is that 1 in 5 women versus 1 in 71 men are victims of rape in their lifetime. (If the rate men are raped is reported on at all.)

Let’s see exactly how the female-as-victim juggernaught churned this nugget out.

Question: When is Rape Not Rape? Answer: When a Rapist Uses Her Vagina

The first thing to note is that the NIPSVS decided that men being forced to have sex with women isn’t rape. Let’s think about this again. The NIPSVS finds that men are the majority perpetrators of rape. 98% of female rape victims and 93% of male rape victims had a male perpetrator. A woman shoving her fingers up a man’s anus is rape, but a woman shoving her vagina down on his penis is not. The latter is not classified as rape, but as “made to penetrate” and is placed in the category of “other sexual violence”.

Logically, if you define rape as penetration, but not envelopment, you are going to end up with an arbitrarily large number of male rapists compared to female rapists.

Rape could easily be redefined as forced envelopment, which is exactly as arbitrary as the NIPSVS’s redefinition of rape. In that case we would find that 80+% of rapists are female. Which is as fatuous a finding as the reverse.

So why are significantly more men than women rapists and significantly more women raped than men? Because when women rape using their vaginas it’s not rape, it’s “other sexual violence”.

Men are the vast majority of rapists and women are the vast majority of victims because rape was defined in such a way to make sure that this was so.

The Real Risk of Rape in the Last Twelve Months

It should be noted the NIPSVS presents no statistics on male victims of rape through penetration for the last 12 months. This is interesting because the 2000 National Violence Against Women Survey found that 0.3 percent of women and 0.1 percent of men surveyed said they were raped via penetration in the previous 12 months.

The NIPSVS says: “The estimates for male victims raped by other types of perpetrators were based upon numbers too small to calculate a reliable estimate and therefore are not reported.”

The NIPSVS surveyed 18,000 people; The NVAWS surveyed 16,000. Did the risk of rape of men by other men take a nose-dive between the NVAW survey and the NIPSVS survey?

Luckily the NIPSVS did track the risk of “made to penetrate” for men in the last year. It was 1.1%, identical to the 1.1% of women “made to envelop”.

If the act of forced envelopment is correctly classified as rape—namely a woman forcing a man to have sex using her vagina, the vagina being one of the two most commonly used instruments of sex—then you get an equal risk of rape between men and women in the last twelve months.

An equal risk of rape between men and women in the last twelve months.

Why then, is the lifetime risk of rape so different?

Men Rape; Women Are Raped

Researchers into the field of traumatic memory recovery note that the longer the period of time a person is asked recall a traumatic event, the less likely they are to remember it. How this works is that surveys that ask about a traumatic event in the last six months get less false negatives than those that ask about a traumatic event in the last twelve months which, itself, gets considerably fewer false negatives than lifetime prevalence.

For men this effect is even more pronounced.

16% of men with documented cases of sexual abuse considered their early childhood experiences sexual abuse, compared with 64% of women with documented cases of sexual abuse. These gender differences may reflect inadequate measurement techniques or an unwillingness on the part of men to disclose this information (Widom and Morris 1997).

Only 16% of men with documented case histories of child sexual abuse disclosed that abuse on a survey intended to capture child sexual abuse. Sixteen percent of men compared to sixty-four percent of women.

That amounts to a disclosure rate of child sexual abuse four times higher in women than in men.

Is it any wonder that the CDC’s 2010 survey (correcting for their mis-categorization of female-on-male rape) found that 18.3% of women and 6.2% of men were victimized over their lifetimes?

Comparing the lifetime rate of sexual abuse for men and women is misleading in determining their relative risk of sexual violence, simply because men disclose childhood sexual abuse four times less often than women.

There may be many reasons for this. It’s unlikely that it’s due to sexual abuse being less impactful on men because studies have shown that sexual abuse does have a profound impact on men, and this includes female-on-male sexual abuse. For instance, the link between sexual abuse and suicide attempts is stronger in boys (Rhodes et al. 2001) and sexually abused boys are twice as likely to commit suicide (Molnar et al. 2001) than sexually abused girls. In addition to that, there is a risk factor for sexually abused men to sexually abuse others is if their abuser was female (Salter et al. 2003.)

One possible reason for men not disclosing, or even “forgetting”, is quite simple: our social narrative does not allow for, nor does it depict, the sexual abuse of males. To a degree it allows for the sexual abuse of boys by men, but not boys by women or adult men by anyone.

In a study on the effects of retention interval and gender on the perception of violence, Ahola et al. (2009) found that eyewitnesses rated female perpetrators less violent than male when reporting after an interval of one to three weeks as opposed to ten minutes. Ahola et al. (2009) proposed that over time eyewitnesses reinterpreted the behavior of perpetrators in order to conform to gender stereotypes regarding violence.

Widom and Morris (1997) propose that a similar process is occurring with male victims of sexual abuse (particularly by females) as, over time, they reinterpret their victimization to conform with the dominant social narrative regarding sexual abuse: that it happens to women and is perpetrated by men. They will do this by reframing their abuse as consensual or as a rite of passage or less violent than it was or by “forgetting” it completely. The more time passes, the more our memories conform to the dominant social narrative.

Gender differences in reporting and in perceptions of early childhood experiences may reflect early socialization experiences in which men learn to view these behaviors as non-predatory and non-abusive. Many of the sexual experiences considered to be sexual abuse (showing/touching sex organs, kissing in a sexual way) may be seen as developmental rites of passage, part of a learning process (Widom and Morris 1997.)

Note that this “forgetting” does not mean that there is no psychological effect; only that the source of that effect is buried, becoming a silent trigger for self-destructive behavior.

The Real Ratio of Male to Female Rapists

If we look at the more reliable statistic, the risk of rape in the last twelve months, and we fix the NIPSVS’s mistake in classifying forced envelopment as “other sexual assault” and not rape, we find that 80% of men report a female rapist and 98% of women report a male rapist. (This estimate is based on the sex of reported perpetrators for sexual assault over a lifetime. There is no reason to think the number of female perpetrators for ‘forced envelopment’ would decline between the lifetime and last year reports: if anything they would increase)

Since there were roughly equal numbers of men(forced to penetrate) and women(forced to envelop) raped in the last year, if we look at a population of 100 rape victims, 50 of which are male and 50 of which are female and apply the statistic that 80% of the male victims were raped by a woman, we get 40 male victims raped by a woman.

That works out to about 40% of rapists being female and 60% being male. A far cry from 95+% of rapists being male.[1]

Instant Female Victimhood, Just Add Media

The cautious and least sensationalistic position to take based on the NIPSVS’s findings is that men and women are most likely at an equal risk of rape and that the proportion of male to female rapists is not significantly gendered. [2]

But this is obviously not what anyone really wants to hear. Instead, the NIPSVS manufactured a non-existant female victimhood by first redefining rape to exclude the vast majority of female-on-male victimization. Then mainstream media (and other parties interested in female victimhood) followed up by selecting the statistic most likely to be fraught with reporting error while completely ignoring the more reliable statistic that suggests parity and further ignoring the ratio of female to male abusers (40/60).[3]

And so from a survey that strongly suggests that neither rape victimization nor rape perpetration is significantly gendered, we get a resounding shout of ‘MEN RAPE/WOMEN ARE RAPED!’

Men act, women are acted upon.

And the juggernaut rumbles on.

References

Ahola A. S., Justice needs a blindfold: Effects of defendants’ gender and attractiveness on judicial evaluation. 2010.

Black M., Basile K. C., Breiding M. J. , Smith S. G. , Walters M. L. , Merrick M. T, Chen J. and Steven M. R., The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey(NIPSVS): 2010 Summary Report , National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, November 2011

Rhodes A. E, Boyle M. H. , Tonmyr L., Wekerle C., Goodman D., Leslie B., Mironova P., Bethell J., and Manion I., Sex Differences in Childhood Sexual Abuse and Suicide-Related Behaviors, Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior 41(3) June 2011

Molnar B. E., Berkman L. F. and Buka S. L., Psychopathology, childhood sexual abuse and other childhood adversities : relative links to subsequent suicidal behaviour in the US, Psychological Medicine, 2001, 31, 965–977.

Salter D., McMillan D., Richards M., Talbot T., Hodges J., Bentovim A., Hastings R., Stevenson J., Skuse D., Development of sexually abusive behaviour in sexually victimized males: a longitudinal study, The Lancet, Vol. 361, February 8, 2003

Tjaden, P. & Thoennes, N. , Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey(NVAWS), Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice, November 2000

Widom C. S. and Morris S., Accuracy of Adult Recollections of Childhood Victimization: Part 2. Childhood Sexual Abuse, Psychological Assessment, Vol. 9, No. l, 34-46, 1997

[1] When same-sex rape is excluded the ratio becomes 44/56 male/female rapists. One reason why same-sex rape should be excluded for an accurate picture of the gender proportions of rapists is because male-on-male rape may be inflated relative to female-on-female rape due to the large population of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated men. The greater rate of male-on-male rape may be a byproduct of more men cycling through society’s rape-camps (otherwise known as ‘prisons’) at a greater rate then women.

[2] The moderate skew in favor of male rapists may just be an artifact of using female interviewers. We won’t know for sure until a survey is done that doesn’t require male victims of female aggressors to disclose their victimization to a female interviewer. Likely the NIPSVS used female interviewers preferentially in order to capture as much female victimization as possible; the logic being that women would be more likely to disclose to another woman.

[3] The 80% rate of female perpetration of forced envelopment is based on the lifetime risk numbers. However, it’s likely that the ratio of male to female rapists who forced envelopment on a man does not change significantly between the twelve month and lifetime time frame. If there is any change, asking men to report sexual abuse by females over their lifetime likely undercounts the proportion of female rapists since female-on-male rape is not congruent with our social stereotypes regarding rape and gender. Additional data on this issue is provided by Predictors of Sexual Coercion. Although Predictors only studied college populations, it found a similar parityin rape victimization risk between men and women in the last twelve months. 2.3% of women and 3.0% of men reported forced sex, which gives a ratio of 57/43 female/male rapists.

Originally published on Typhon’s web site Genderratic. I also recommend her YouTube channel, Genderratic’s Curio Emporium.

(Note: This item also published on A Voice for Men and Dean’s World.)

Author: DEAN ESMAY, Guest Voice Columnist

Dean Esmay is a long-time associate of Joe Gandelman and The Moderate Voice. He is Managing Editor of A Voice for Men. He also blogs on a variety of issues at Dean's World, one of the world's first blogs and one of the few that was archived as Historically Significant by the Library of Congress for the 2004 elections. You can also follow Dean via Twitter here.

44 Comments

  1. Not only disgusting, but just mathematically and logically garbled and just plain incorrect. Wrapping a bunch of incorrectly-concocted statements in in-your-face anatomical descriptions does not make those statements any more true. Trying to pick through individual points in this “classic essay” is pretty impossible; they are either too poorly worded or just mathematically wrong.

    Not my site, not my decision of course, and the mods of this site are allowed to do with it whatever they want. However, I am truly baffled and disappointed that this author continues to be able to post here. The consequences of willfully misrepresenting these numbers and concepts to such an overwhelming degree just add to culture that allows rape to be ignored, dismissed, or tacitly accepted as normal.

  2. Roro, personally I find Dean’s contrarian posts interesting and a welcome change from the normal TMV diet of latest-sins-of-the-GOP stories. And the ensuing discussions, especially when you’re contributing, are lively and informative.

    So I find it disappointing you’d dismiss this one (and its author) rather than engage with it. And even if you disagree with the numbers and the claims, I’m not sure what’s “disgusting” about the thesis that rape goes both ways. That doesn’t sound to me like an argument to ignore, dismiss, or accept it; it sounds like just the opposite.

  3. I agree with Dr. J.

    This is a portion of the subject definition from the CDC report:

    Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to…..or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female….

    If I had to guess, I would think the majority of the incidents reported that fall within this category are “being made to receive oral sex from a male or female”.

  4. As Typhon and I are both victims of female predators I am saddened but not surprised to see demand that information on female predators be silenced and suppressed; the overwhelming majority of victims of females are not believed and most are laughed at or mocked.

    More links for those who may be interested:

    http://business.highbeam.com/4.....alence-and

    http://www.canadiancrc.com/Fem.....eness.aspx

    http://femalesexoffenders.com/fso/

    http://toysoldier.wordpress.co.....edophiles/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....vaS7E6Koeo

    http://themoderatevoice.com/16.....iscussion/

    The real rape culture in my view is the one that denies that boys and men have a right to say no, that marginalizes and dismisses male victims, and dismisses or excuses female predators. This is a deeply taboo area, and that taboo must be lifted if we are to have sanity in these discussions.

  5. It seems that to start, the CDC should not be “downgrading” female rape.

  6. Dean, this is an important topic you share. Thanks for the follow up post as well. While I was reading the article for the first time I thought to myself, somebody is going to be irked by this data because they will think it may lessen a horrific crime — rape of women by men. It does not; not in anyway. What it does do is alert us to the fact that boys and men are also raped and widens the scope of conversation and understanding. How can that be a bad thing. Well done.

  7. Roro… i hear you… there have been many statistical inflation and re-interpretations that it is disheartening.

    Roro this is what i do with it… i understand the healing process and know often times if one grasps a hammer when they are enraged then everyone and everything is a nail….It is an important subject but feel it discredits the objective of this much needed advocacy when it is not handled with a clear mind…

    Do you remember back in the sixties and seventies when women first began to speak for their own wounds… Often times it was not pretty… and thank God that with time and care there was a healing of the deep rage and so many have moved on to a more balanced and seasoned life. What i find interesting here is the shadow projection of victim…

    Just as there are a hundred + ways to kneel and kiss the ground there are a hundred ways + for those who have been violated to act out their own wounds with the same FY rape energetic…..sometimes words and the energy people express those words with can come with the same violation and force as rape energy.

    Roro i hope you are seeing the pattern here…the style many of these people are using is ‘gaitor baiting’….the writing is covered up through attempting to use ‘fuzzy math’ so that they sound intellectual but underneath the rage oozes towards the hatred of the feminine that violated or did not protect them… I understand and have great compassion for that… finding ways to express the anger is a big part of healing.

    And of course if anyone points out that the numbers are inflated and skewed they then jump back on you for the bait has been set…for you are then advocating for women as victims and not validating of the marginalized vulnerable males… Each time the double bind is laid and friend i dont really think there is a way to keep out of the snare except to not keep out of it and offer up the highest good for all.

    One does not need to penetrate a vagina to carry the energetic of rape towards others.. We see it every day in our politics and dominate culture.

    I would highly recommend a PBS documentary …. Half the Sky…..millions and millions of women are raped across this planet each year….and that is not a myth… and because someone is raped that does not make them a ‘victim’ as is often used in these postings.. A victim mentality is created within the mind and sadly sometimes it can become dark shadow…

    roro.. because of the set up, the pattern can only be healed by not taking the bait….

  8. The last link above, sounds very positive: FBI expands the definition of rape…

    The FBI’s decision last week to revise the definition of rape for its annual Uniform Crime Reporting Program is being praised by sexual assault advocates and the LGBT community.

    The old definition limited reports to female victims of “forcible” rape — leaving out male victims and victims assaulted while incapacitated by drugs, alcohol or other means.

    Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded.

    This definition has been in use since 1927.

    According a statement released last week by the U.S. Department of Justice, the new definition reads:

    “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

    According to the DOJ, the FBI will use this new rape definition — as it used the old one — to collect information from local law enforcement agencies about reported rapes.

    The result of the old definition, advocates and experts say, resulted in a significant underreporting of sexual assaults in the U.S.

    “The FBI’s decision is tremendously significant and an important step in acknowledging all victims of sexual violence,” said Lauren Allswede, a counselor for the Michigan State University Sexual Assault Program. “Rape is the most underreported crime in general, but men specifically often hesitate to come forward for fear their identity or masculinity will be questioned. Raising public awareness about sexual violence dynamics, including accurate information about who is victimized, is critical. Everyone is impacted by sexual violence and anyone can be a victim of sexual violence. With a more inclusive definition, we hope that male victims feel validated and that community members and service providers better respond to a previously silenced and underserved population.”

    Allswede is not alone. Nusrat Ventimiglia, director of victim services for Equality Michigan, said the new definition is important for the LGBT community. Equality Michigan, aside from providing political advocacy on gay issues, runs a program to track violence against the LGBT community. Not only does the group offer assistance for victims in navigating the criminal justice system but it also reports incidents to the FBI annually.

    “The expansion of the federal definition of rape to finally count the sexual assault of males, as well as updating the problematic ‘force’ requirement is a long overdue, but welcome, change. The updated definition not only includes sexual assaults against males as ‘rape,’ but also counts as ‘rape’ penetrative assaults without consent (including non-consent by reason of incapacity), removing the requirement of ‘force,’” Ventimiglia said in an email statement to The American Independent. “We at Equality Michigan have counted a number of sexual assaults of males and provided support to these survivors in addition to other survivors who would not have been counted under the now obsolete definition of rape. Now the stories of these survivors will finally be counted among federal crime statistics. We hope that this will lead to more inclusive policies to fully address the problem of sexual violence.”

  9. Sparrow, I’m not sure I understood your first comment. Are you saying Roro has been victimized and sort-of raped by the OP’s statistical arguments, and that that’s a manifestation of Dean’s personal healing process?

  10. An old standby shaming and silencing tactic is to accuse people of being bitter, angry, etc. In fact it’s doubly weird: let’s pretend for a moment that either Typhon or I am angry or bitter (which we’re not as it happens): what if we were? How would that invalidate anything she wrote in her essay?

    The accusation of bitterness, anger, or hatred is an especially common shaming tactic to use to silence male victims of violence and abuse, sexual and otherwise; it works less well on women like Typhon, but it doesn’t work on me either anymore. Shaming people into silence, and deciding who is and who is not worthy of compassion, by questioning their motives and character rather than the data they present and the story they tell is a way of changing the subject, nothing more.

    The current FBI and other definitions continue to use a definition of “rape” that is narrowly as possible defined as “penetration,” relegating all other forms of nonconsensual sexual activity as something else. The numbers as Typhon gives are fully referenced and can be looked at and discussed by anyone who has a genuine interest; they are not cooked or mangled in any way, and have not changed in any significant way from the latest reports: the definition of “rape” is “penetration” and everything else is relegated to something else and almost always something less serious.

    I try not to question people’s motives but it appears to me that if there is any anger here, it is coming from people angered at the notion that women are human beings and thus capable of evil.

    Women hold up half the sky; who holds up the other half?

    As Erin Pizzey said to me this morning, until we as human beings start to talk about these things as problems we have to address together as human beings, nothing will get better.

    While I’m not particularly hurt, I will withdraw from this conversation and allow people to discuss whatever else they want about what a supposedly hateful person I am, or how awful my friend Typhon is, maybe even how awful her husband must be, or my wife, or whatever. I believe the numbers speak for themselves and thoughtful readers may draw their own conclusions about what is and is not a serious sexual offense and who is or is not worthy of sympathy or compassion.

  11. Dean, I hope you reconsider withdrawing from this conversation. As a parent of two young male adults, it is something that certainly could affect me personally.

  12. First time comment here, but I have been reading off and on for a while.

    I really appreciate this kind of article, and especially Dean’s handling of some of the negative reactions, though I wish he would remain engaged.

    As a 20 year mental health professional I can personally testify to the practice of pathologizing individuals, literally questioning their mental health in an intentionally shaming way, for broaching this type of subject.

    It doesn’t just happen with people who comment on blogs, it also happens with credentialed mental health professionals who sometimes see the problem of sexual assault and other social maladies as a contest between the sexes for who gets victim status. It is very disconcerting to see that happen with such a serious problem.

    Sexual assault and abuse affects both sexes, and drastically so. We don’t need to deny male victims in order to address the problem. In fact, we can’t really understand the problem until we free it from the grip of sexual politics.

  13. no… Dr. J…. that is not what i am saying…

    i have worked for many years with both female and male survivors of sexual assault… based on reliable stats these stats do not line up…i fully agree that all sexual assault and abuse effects both sexes… and no one is suggesting that male victims should not get the same care and advocacy as female survivors…but as i stated above feel that it serves the advocacy best when there is reliability of stats and that no one needs to inflate in order to justify advocacy…

    And i feel the continuous inflation and twisting of stats is coming from anger and discord which is very understandable…As one that has been in this field for many years, i have seen the patterns of going from victim to thriving for those that go through abuse…Also no problem with anger… it is part of healing.

    ” Female Rapists, versus, the Helpless Female and the Demonic Male” … that is rather angry and in truth do not know any one that thinks like this… women are not helpless and males are not demonic… geesh… it is so demeaning to the reader, those are not our boxes… many of us deeply care for the well being of both males and females.

    For years have found it interesting that often the emphasis is put on those that are violated rather than those that violate…..

    There is ZERO opposition here for advocacy for sexual assault or abuse…it is an advocacy that all can join together for the good of all men and women…

  14. Thanks sparrow, your words are sage.

    The only place where I may disagree to a small extent is on the use of the term “victim”. It’s something I’m sure you know is often debated within survivor circles. Some wish to self-identify as survivors instead of victims, but to deny someone ownership of the word “victim” is I think a misplaced sentiment. “Survivor” implies that something happened to you, and you made it through, with the implication also that you’ve come through unscathed or stronger. Rape (as you know) is not just something that happens to a person — like a tornado or a gameshow or a rough breakup. It is a crime perpetrated by one person on another person. The term “victim” clearly implies that there is a perpetrator. For those who wish to identify as such, it can be important in the healing process. Many who are raped eventually identify as both “survivor” and “victim”.

  15. personally I find Dean’s contrarian posts interesting and a welcome change…So I find it disappointing you’d dismiss this one (and its author)

    Well Dr J, it’s not all that surprising to me that you’d like an article that I do not. I dismiss this one and its author because not only is it garbled, misleading and incorrect, but it is so in service to the idea that women are creating their own victimhood, and somehow are just as often the perpetrators, which they most certainly are not. It’s disgustingly victim-blaming. I truly can’t believe such an article is here on TMV, and furthermore being defended by so many commenters. Deeply disheartening.

  16. ordinarysparrow, I think part of the problem with the statistics is that female rape of a male is not categorized separately but lumped together with other violations which could be perpetrated by either a male or female. It looks like the author had to make some assumptions in order to break this number apart between male and female perpetrators and perhaps the discrepancies between this article and your observations lie here.

    I looked at one of the links Dean provided, and it appeared that many of the incidents involve teenage boys being victimized by adult women. Personally, I was always guarded against placing my sons in a position that made them vulnerable to a male perpetrator; there is an assumption that a woman is “safe” that perhaps should not be made.

  17. roro …. thanks for the parsing of the word victim…it is a very layered word.. no matter how one turn that one… it hurts… May there healing and compassion for all that are victimized … most of all may the root cause of why rape continues to be an underlying cancer of humanity be brought forth…Why do men and women sexually exploit, rape, and abuse is a question i contemplated many times with little understanding…

    Z… please go to the stats on FBI and CDC …part of what i am responding to in truth comes from the last posting, where the stats where not aligned…and deeply skewed… with a repeating dynamics that divides males and females instead of bringing us together in advocacy for all that are victimized…

  18. Zusai… i saw this a couple of months ago on Huffington Post and was blown by the headline of the slide show….hope you can take a look… it is truly chilling…

    Teachers Behaving Badly: Student-Teacher Sex Scandals

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....94666.html

    I feel this is an excellent example that supports the double standard that Dean addresses…

    Teachers behaving badly and calling a teacher and minor student sexual violation a sex scandal… oh my!….one cannot look at this slideshow with 38 examples and not have grave concern…..

  19. “I love taking men’s macho bullshit and shoving it down their throats.”

    Those words were spoken to me once. They were expressed by MSW, LPC, just before going in to do a didactic with a group of men in a residential treatment facility.

    It was, of course, an extreme example of anti-male bias; not the norm. But it was part of a bias that I saw regularly in the mental health industry from the early 80′s to the late 90′s, progressively worsening as that time passed.

    There were countless other examples I saw from the era of “Women Who Love Too Much,” and “Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them.” It was an age of particular sensitivity to women’s issues, usually with the implication that most of their problems were caused by men in some way. Dissent from that worldview was viewed dimly.

    And by what I see going on here, it continues.

    This article shows some pretty clear insight into the governing perceptual problems about male victims, as do the comments.

    I see some vague criticism of the research and statistics, but nothing substantive, followed by a return to a female-centric view of the problem.

    I think it should be noted, with rape for instance, if you include the populations of men in US prisons, there are more men raped in the United States annually than women.

    That is hardly a reason to minimize or ignore the problem of sexual crimes against women, but neither is the need to focus on women’s issues sufficient excuse to demonize or pathologize people who try to bring men’s issues to the table.

    This article, and the reactions to it here, leave me wishing to see more material like this in the future.

  20. “Manufacturing Female Victimhood, Marginalizing Vulnerable Men” that is the bait… and then watch the switch when the concern for accuracy of the stats is brought forth…

    what do you call that avfm1? you think that is not baiting? ….. female victimization is manufactured and vulnerable men are marginalized…sounds like you are not reading the same comments and post…. but then there is a tendency to hear what one wants to hear…maybe i am not hearing you, and i know you are not understanding my comments…

  21. Sparrow, thanks for the clarification. I certainly agree the OP has an angry, polarizing tone and uses language that oversimplifies…which is to say it’s much like 20 other posts that grace TMV every day.

    That anger is a sign of the healing process is an interesting idea, in that it implies the author will at some point reach a “healed” state and adopt a more broad-minded tone. Do you believe that’s true? I would like to, but the anger in Dean’s writing, and Roro’s, and those 20 other posts on various topics comes across more as an identity than a phase. For example, the use of terms like “victim” and “survivor” as statements of identity suggests someone not not moving past a traumatic event but rather clinging to it, even brandishing it as a political tool.

    I have a poor lens here, of course, since TMV posts are a snapshot of people’s mostly-anonymous writings over a fairly narrow interval. And it’s centered on the forum, not the people, so if the people’s evolving thinking causes them to leave the the forum, they drop out of view. It sounds like you have a more people-centered experience, so I welcome your perspective.

  22. It’s disgustingly victim-blaming.

    That’s an interesting statement in what beliefs it implies, Roro. Some women are victims, and the OP blames some women as perpetrators. It does not follow that the OP blames victims.

    Unless one applies blame or victimhood to a class rather than individuals. If the OP were blaming all women, or if you regard women as a class as victims, then your accusation makes sense. Do you?

  23. I have to say most of the kick back about this article has been pretty thin. I keep reading about bad numbers and math but no one bothers to show it just repeating it as if saying so often enough makes it so. OS I get that the current numbers don’t show what Dean is alleging but since a main thrust of the OP is that the numbers are wrong and why, well just repeating the numbers that he claims are skewed without addressing any of his comments on why and how they are skewed is just, well in this context it just isn’t a real and serious argument.

  24. “If the OP were blaming all women, or if you regard women as a class as victims, then your accusation makes sense.

    Uh, no. The headline says “Manufacturing Female Victimhood”. The thesis of the piece is the third paragraph. (BTW, I tried to copy it, but it seems that there is huge amounts of difficulty in copying and pasting now. What happened? I’m just trying to copy and paste…). The author goes on to make a totally different argument. Saying “men are raped too” is a fundamentally different argument than “women are manufacturing their own victimhood”. The article gives math for the former, and yet proclaims as its aim the latter. There are zero aruments that somehow 1 of 5 women somehow are NOT being raped within their lifetimes, with over 60% suffering from some form of sexual violence. ALL the numbers here point to the fact that men are raped too. This is true. I agree. It’s a problem that needs to be dealt with. That does not mean that women are “manufacturing their own victimhood”. How much more victim blaming can you get than outright saying that said victimhood is being manufactured?

    EEllis, going through the numbers takes a great deal of analysis. I started to do so on Friday and gave up after half an hour, because I had things to do. The author doesn’t even link the original study, which is extremely long. Getting too deep into these MRA articles is bad for the soul anyway.

  25. Ellis, i have gauged whether to go to the stats for both the FBI and the CDC and do a chart… but instead left the links for those that want to go and take a serious look…So Ellis if you want to take a look the links are there…. If not that is your business…I have no interest in minimizing anyone’s experience, for i know if there is one case that is one too many…And for me it is not just the stats and numbers… but many many years specializing in the field, working with both men and women… i have no need and little support for those that see the rape of women as manufactured victimhood and the poor marginalized male…both male and female are worthy of respect…

    I am a firm supporter in advocacy and personal decency that one does not make another small in order for them to be big…any victim of sexual assault, rape, or exploitation is AND/BOTH when it comes to males and females…

    And to be an effective advocate there needs to be reliable date if you are going to use it…

  26. EEllis, going through the numbers takes a great deal of analysis. I started to do so on Friday and gave up after half an hour, because I had things to do. The author doesn’t even link the original study, which is extremely long. Getting too deep into these MRA articles is bad for the soul anyway.

    I can buy that, I know I’m not delving into that pit, and I wouldn’t take umbrage at you saying you don’t trust the numbers but when you make a direct claim that the numbers and the math are wrong there should be some backing for those statements. In truth we all know there is some truth that the numbers must be under reported the argument is more how badly (on the numbers side). Now the argument that it “manufactures” victims is a different one.

    Ellis, i have gauged whether to go to the stats for both the FBI and the CDC and do a chart

    Those numbers mean nothing in this discussion without addressing the bias that Dean claims is taking place. Clearly in the OP he addresses that the numbers are overwhelming they just happen to be incorrect and he attempts to show why. Repeating again and again “but the CDC says” ignores the basis for the OP.

  27. i have no need and little support for those that see the rape of women as manufactured victimhood and the poor marginalized male…both male and female are worthy of respect…

    If your big take on the OP is Deans personal militarization over this issue then fine but the bigger take is the minimization of sexual assaults on males by females in the US and the culture that enables this. I shouldn’t speak for anyone but I think that he may believe that the desire of some to combat real abuse to female ends up hurting the cause of male victims because of the tactics used by some. To combat female victimhood they portray all males as possible perpetrators not as possible victims also.

  28. Exactly roro… to allow oneself to be pulled into the rahrah of these kinds of postings is not good for the heart or soul…for all to often they do not come across as a healthy or pure advocacy but rather misogamy…. No more taking the bait for me…

    Just will state clearly one final time… My heart, concern, and intent with action is to be an advocate for ALL that are sexually or physically abused, exploited, assaulted or raped… I will not allow myself to enter any kind of rahrah that splits and pits male against the feminine or feminine against male.

  29. EEllis — Let’s take a quick example to show what I’m talking about. This article specifically defines “made to penetrate” as “using your vagina to rape”. The study from which the data is taken specifically defines it not just as forcing a vagina over a penis, but the way it was defined in the survey from which the data is taken is very explicit. For male victims:

    being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

    The article is (purposefully?) misrepresenting the definition here. That’s just one example.

  30. The article is (purposefully?) misrepresenting the definition here. That’s just one example.

    Huh? There were many studies mentioned so the fact that one study, which one you don’t indicate, tends to support Deans desire to have the definitions corrected is supposed to do what? Are you saying that is the definition of rape in the NIPSVS study? If so you should say so and link it. What I believe you are trying to quote is the CDC’s definition of rape but I believe you are leaving out part of it. The part that changes based on the sex of the victim.

    Secondly, the CDC researchers defined rape as:

    -Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

    -Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also
    includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

    What! Women forcing men to penetrate them isn’t rape? Not according to the authors of the study.

    As an example of prevalence differences between the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey and other surveys, the lifetime prevalence estimate of rape for men in this report is lower than what has been reported in other surveys (e.g., for forced sex more broadly) (Basile, Chen, Black, & Saltzman, 2007). This could be due in part to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey making a distinction between rape and being made to penetrate someone else. Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.

    Look argue about the language or what it means but your example of why the numbers are wrong is illogical and without basis. I’m not saying the numbers or what Dean thinks they mean are right just that your stated reasons and examples are not persuasive at all.

  31. sigh. No, EEllis, the numbers are from one study, which I’ve already indicated as one of my complaintsthat it wasn’t linked. I do sympathize- the article is poorly written and difficult to follow, making it difficult to understand where there numbers are coming from and what definitions are used. Hence the difficulty in parsing. Go read the study, then read this article. It’s a waste of my time to explain it all to you if you haven’t done the background reading, and don’t understand what is being said here. I’m not going to argue with you on my previous comment; the definition above is one thing, the study they use to parse the numbers is another.

  32. No, EEllis, the numbers are from one study, which I’ve already indicated as one of my complaints that it wasn’t linked.

    First more than one study was mentioned second he refrenced the study you refer to so the link thing is “he didn’t make it easy enough for me” because it’s the result that comes up in a search.

    Black M., Basile K. C., Breiding M. J. , Smith S. G. , Walters M. L. , Merrick M. T, Chen J. and Steven M. R., The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey(NIPSVS): 2010 Summary Report , National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, November 2011

    I do sympathize- the article is poorly written and difficult to follow, making it difficult to understand where there numbers are coming from and what definitions are used. Hence the difficulty in parsing. Go read the study, then read this article. It’s a waste of my time to explain it all to you if you haven’t done the background reading, and don’t understand what is being said here.

    I’ve done the reading and linked where it is being discuses elsewhere. Your assertion of what it says doesn’t match what I have read. Heck the OP makes much more sense than your comments and nothing you asserted is referenced or linked at all and you condemn Dean for not doing a better job?

    Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies.

    That is a quote from the study and it says contrary to what you posted that being forced or coerced to penetrate is not rape.

  33. Here is a direct clip from the study

    How NISVS Measured Sexual Violence
    Five types of sexual violence were measured in NISVS. These include acts of rape (forced penetration), and types of sexual violence other than rape.
    • Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.
    - -Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
    - -Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
    • Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.
    - -Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.
    - -Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.
    • Sexual coercion is defined as unwanted sexual penetration that occurs after a person ispressured in a nonphysical way. In NISVS, sexual coercion refers to unwanted vaginal, oral, or anal sex after being pressured in ways that included being worn down by someone who repeatedly asked for sex or showed they were unhappy; feeling pressured by being lied to, being told promises that were untrue, having someone threaten to end a relationship or spread rumors; and sexual pressure due to someone using their influence or authority.
    • Unwanted sexual contact is defined as unwanted sexual experiences involving touch but not sexual penetration, such as being kissed in a sexual way, or having sexual body parts fondled or grabbed.
    • Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences are those unwanted experiences that do not involve any touching or penetration, including someone exposing their sexual body parts, flashing, or masturbating in front of the victim, someone making a victim show his or her body parts, someone making a victim look at or participate in sexual photos or movies, or someone harassing the victim in a public place in a way that made the victim feel unsafe.

  34. It is clear that forced penetration is considered a separate event from rape. The study says men can only be raped by other men or by women using objects only.

  35. EEllis, and in my comment, I specifically talk about the definition of one of those types of sexual violence. Why don’t go back, see which one it is, compare the definition used in this article with the one in the study. I’ve already done it for you, in my comment, but since you seem determined not to believe it, look at it, and see where you went wrong. I’m not going to get sucked into this idiotic conversation any further.

    Can anyone else still reading see why I didn’t parse the numbers in the first place, when a clear, obvious distinction is so vehemently and ridiculously argued against? I’m tried, now I’m done.

  36. By the way, there is nowhere anywhere here or elsewhere where I have said that forced penetration should not be called rape. For the record.

  37. roro.. i have copied and pasted from 2012 and 2010….

    The assertion in the article is that there is an equal number of male female perps.. based on enveloping and insertion… what the article does not take into consideration is that males and force male to both insert and envelope..it does not mean that only a woman can force a male to envelope or insert…

    Here i will share and you and anyone else can parse through it… it seems to me the author makes the assertion that all the male victims have female perps….. in order to get anyway near those numbers… and it becomes percentages of percentages and and those are not the overall percentage which is proclaimed… as you shared it becomes very garbled and jumbled..

    This is the data sheet for 2012 CDC
    *************************************************************

    In a nationally representative survey of adults:1
    • Nearly 1 in 5 (18.3%) women and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives.
    • Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence other than rape, such as being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, or non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, in the 12 months prior to the survey.
    • 4.8% of men reported they were made to penetrate someone else at some time in their lives.
    • 13% of women and 6% of men reported they experienced sexual coercion at some time in their lives.

    A 2011 survey of high school students found that 11.8% of girls and 4.5% of boys from grades 9-12 reported that they were forced to have sexual intercourse at some time in their lives.
    In a nationally representative survey:1
    • Among female rape victims, perpetrators were reported to be intimate partners (51.1%), family members (12.5%), acquaintances (40.8%) and strangers (13.8%).
    • Among male rape victims, perpetrators were reported to be acquaintances (52.4%) and strangers (15.1%).
    • Among male victims who were made to penetrate someone else, perpetrators were reported to be intimate partners (44.8%), acquaintances (44.7%) and strangers (8.2%).

    ***************************************************************

    No where in the 2012 does it state that the male victims where perpetrated by females….that information is not listed that i can see…So began a search on reliable stats to see what is the number of male vs.female rapist or sexual assault individuals.

    I use this as an example of another study and with further research would be needed, this is just the first example of comparison that i pulled up…

    The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of U.S. rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

    “UCSC Rape Prevention Education: Rape Statistics”. www2.ucsc.edu. Retrieved 2008-01-01. The study was conducted in Detroit, USA.

    The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of U.S. rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male

    It appears to that the writer of this post is making the false assumption that all the male victims were violated by females… Whereas the stats show that when it comes to rape the overwhelming indication is that there is a higher percentage of males that rape and attempt sexual assault than females…

    Also to state that female rape victims disclose their rape but males do not is false… neither male or female readily disclose…

    _____________________________________________-

    This is from the 2010 CDC

    In a nationally representative survey of adults:1
    • Nearly 1 in 5 (18.3%) women and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives.
    • Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence other than rape, such as being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, or non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, in the 12 months prior to the survey.
    • 4.8% of men reported they were made to penetrate someone else at some time in their lives.
    • 13% of women and 6% of men reported they experienced sexual coercion at some time in their lives.

    More than half of the male victims of rape (52.4%) were raped by an acquaintance, and 1 in 7 male victims (15.1%) was raped by a stranger (Table 2.6). The estimates for male victims raped by other types of perpetrators were based upon numbers too small to calculate a reliable estimate and therefore are not reported.

    The majority of female victims of rape and sexual violence other than rape reported only male perpetrators. For males, the sex of the perpetrator varied across types of sexual violence.

    Sex of Perpetrator in Lifetime Reports of Sexual Violence
    Most perpetrators of all forms of sexual violence against women were male. For female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators. Additionally, 92.5% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape reported only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown).

  38. Look it’s obvious that the study concludes that more women than men are raped. The assertion is that, among other things, they have classified rapes of males as other types of violence. Thus when you talk about rapes of women and rapes of men there are so few rapes of men. Not because they didn’t happen but rather they were classified away.

  39. EEllis, the problem is that you continue to argue something I have not contradicted once, ever. This would be much less obnoxious if you would actually read what’s written.

  40. look RoRo you say the numbers are wrong because this of this study and I say yes that is the point of the post that the study is wrong. It honestly is like you could care less about the discussion and are just trying to muddy the thread up.

  41. The article is garbled and mathematically wrong, in service of painting women as making up their own victimization. You said saying so was a thin argument, and I should support what I saw is wrong. I gave one tiny, simple, easily verifyable example, and you refused to read it, or possibly choose not to put in the 3 seconds necessary to understand it. This is why I didn’t go through the full post showing what’s dishonest about it – it’s just a waste of time.

  42. Again you make the claim but are somehow “above” bothering to show how. You gave no example but just incorrect info. You posted what you claim they used as the definition of rape and I showed that you where incorrect. And you still have to throw a little insult into your response. Real grownup.

  43. Sigh. My example was not about anyone’s definition of “rape”. It was about the definition of “made to penetrate”. Which you would know if you took time to read the article and/or the study and/or my comment itself, as the term comes up over and over in each. The “made to penetrate” idea and definition are key to the post’s thesis. This is why I insult. You refuse to read the comment and respond to it, instead insisting that I’m saying something I didn’t say. So how many times have we gone back and forth, me explaining that you are not reading correctly, and you refusing to do so? Is it any wonder I don’t want to get into math, which is much more difficult?

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