Guest Voice: Rudy Giuliani vs. Ron Paul I — Online Scoring

NOTE: The Moderate Voice runs Guest Voice posts from time to time by readers who don’t have their own websites, or people who have websites but would like to post something for TMV’s diverse and thoughtful readership.

Yesterday we ran THIS POST about Rep. Ron Paul, which generated a lot of interest. It was written by Alex Hammer whose blog is Politics 2.0 and who ran as an independent candidate for governor of Maine. Due to the interest in this subject, we’re running a follow-up Guest Voice post by the same writer. Guest Voice posts do not necessarily reflect the opinions of The Moderate Voice or its writers.

Rudy Giuliani vs. Ron Paul I – Online Scoring
By Alex Hammer

We had Ali and Frazier. We had McEnroe and Connors. We had the Yankees and Red Sox.

Still do.

Meet Rudy Giuliani vs. Ron Paul

While no one is calling it the reincarnation of Nixon – Kennedy in historic debate circles, this one last night has created significant buzz.

Online and off.

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In a debate labeled generally in the media as contentious, (or lively depending upon your point of view), opinion is split in regard to who got the better of the tussle.

Dick Morris writes that Giuliani won the debate.

Want to know who picks Ron Paul? Log on to Digg, or Technorati, or Google for that matter, and sift through the reams of blog posts of numerous Paul supporters.

They seem to be everywhere online.

And just like in boxing, some people think it is fixed:

Rush Limbaugh says Ron Paul is “spamming polls.”

Meanwhile, online, there is a strong buzz that Ron Paul has been ignored by the mainstream media in regard to his impressive Internet demonstrated accomplishments and/or support.

Importantly, and not surprisingly, the crux of the issue relates to a fundamental divergent world view as opposed to simply a divergence between two candidates. Is a broader examination of context, history and circumstances necessary to understand the roots of terrorism, or, conversely, does looking for such reasons or motives for terrorism instead reflect a misguided and in fact dangerous diversion from a tougher approach needed to win.

In fact, what to some is a matter of survival, is to others a matter of extremism, shortsightedness, or warmongering that in fact could contribute towards the behaviors it seeks to extinguish.

The interesting thing about the Internet is that such divergent world views can be shared, shaped, expanded and debated to a degree in which a pronounced level of citizens in this nation may choose to become engaged.

While I do not harbor illusions of outright consensus, I am hopeful that out of such examination, a true “national conversation” if that were to emerge, that together we will be able to chart a course that many, if not most, feel sufficiently reflects our common interests.

Ali and Frazier went at it I think three times. McEnroe and Connors (and Borg) probably many more.

People love (and love to hate) the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry.

Giuliani-Paul II anyone?

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  • Bones_708

    Those that like RP will think we won because they believe in what he said and respond accordingly in polls. Others who think he has his head……….in the sand…………., will think he is to much of a kook to bother responding. While he says some interesting things about taxes, govt, ect, he ends up looking like a kook. Didn’t anyone else expect him to start talking about aliens, or the Kennedy assassination? He just gives off that conspiracy theory nut job vibe.

  • willers32

    Of course Ron Paul was right. Anyone who has actually bothered to read the 9/11 Commission report, or ANY of Osama bin-Laden’s “Fatwas” would know that the attack of 9/11 were retaliation for US policy in the Middle East.
    Ron Paul has been warning us for decades that our interventionist policy would cause us to gain more enemies than friends.
    One example that Dr. Paul uses is Vietnam. The powers that be warned that withdrawal from Vietnam would have dire consequences. Vietnam would become communist, there would be a domino effect in which other Southeast Asian countries would “fall” into communism and even Australia would be in danger. Well, we pulled out of Vietnam and now we talk with them, trade with them and are well on our way to become close friends with them. There are actually US citizens who now vacation in Vietnam.
    This is what Dr. Paul wants to do with the Middle East. Many people in the Middle East, even in Iran, like and respect Americans, but hate our government’s insane policy of intervention.
    Dr. Paul is absolutely correct that the Founders’ vision of a nation firmly committed to “peace, trade and friendly relations” with all nations is the best policy.
    The tallest statue in the history of world, “Liberty Enlightening the World” proudly stands in NY harbor. She is a symbol of what the US is supposed to be: a beacon of freedom. We are supposed to lead the world by our EXAMPLE, not by force of arms.
    Ron Paul for President in 2008!

  • denveromelette

    I disagree that Paul is a conspiracy theorist. His argument in the debate come straight from the 9/11 commission report and well documented history, this is the opposite of what a conspiracy theorist would do.

  • kritter

    The problem is that it is no longer possible to have a rational debate about the causes of 9/11 ( I agree with Ron Paul on those) or the longterm affects of our short-sighted ME policies. Conspiracy theorists on the left still think GW Bush caused it or was warned and purposely did nothing, those on the right seem to be claiming 9/11 as their untouchable birthright, when we were attacked without cause- merely for loving our freedom too much.

    The problem with the rational truth is that it doesn’t make our invasion of Iraq look like the heroic thing to do. Also, Rudy’s popularity among Republicans rests to a large degree on his assumption of the role of the “hero of 9/11″. If our policies somehow led to the attack, this role loses luster.

    The GOP badly needs a hero to believe in -a larger than life figure like Ronald Reagan, because Bush has proven to be such a disappointment to most of them. Rudy is trying hard to fill those shoes. Most in the GOP won’t look at truth-telling Ron Paul as a hero, because his version doesn’t perpetuate the myth that keeps them going about 9/11 and the ME.

  • kritter

    “Michigan party chairman Saul Anuzis said he will circulate a petition among Republican National Committee members to ban Paul from more debates. At a GOP candidates’ debate Tuesday night, Paul drew attacks from all sides, most forcefully from former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, when he linked the terror attacks to U.S. bombings.”

    That is from the AP- showing the GOP cannot tolerate its Ron Pauls and Chuck Hagels.

  • Likkerish

    Regarding ten-term Congressman Ron Paul of Texas, Bones_708 writes: “While he says some interesting things about taxes, govt, ect, (sic) he ends up looking like a kook. Didn’t anyone else expect him to start talking about aliens, or the Kennedy assassination? He just gives off that conspiracy theory nut job vibe (sic).”

    For those who don’t know, “sic” is used in quotations to indicate that the error in the text belongs to the person who originally made the statement. That being said, I have to say further that it never ceases to amaze me, even as a psychologist, how easily the American population is mentally manipulated by propaganda. That’s, perhaps, a nicer way of referring to brainwashing.

    Paul ends up “looking like a kook???” I find this statement incredible. It reminds me of the people in the children’s story who were marveling at the Emperor’s New Clothes. The prevailing Neo-Conservative views that have been mainstreamed through making people so afraid that they will accept limitations on their personal freedoms and support crass imperialism throughout the world are the “New Clothes” of individuals like Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowitz that people have been brainwashed to admire. How beautiful they look! Excuse me while I shield my eyes from the ugliness of the spectacle.

    Ron Paul is speaking the truth of the young child who said of the Emperor, “He’s naked!” Our policy of aggression in Iraq (the so-called pre-emptive war–pre-emptive of what?) is what is nakedly apparent to Dr. Paul and 70% of Americans who want the killing to stop. Iraq was never a threat to our security. Most of us know that we are stirring up a hornets nest and that we and the innocent Iraqi people will continue to be stung the longer we stay there.

    There are people who swallowed the lies about Iraq’s connection with Al-Qaeda and 9-11, just as they swallowed the lies about Saddam’s having weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). Some of these people still believe that Iraq was responsible for 9-11, an assertion that has been disproved many times over, just as the WMDs were never found and still have not been found to this day.

    Ron Paul is JUST “saying some interesting things about taxes, govt…???” But, he “ends up looking like a kook….and gives off that conspiracy nut job vibe???” My mind staggers under the intellectual weight of Bones_708’s cloned pronouncements. He writes like Rudy Giuliani’s mouthpiece.

    Rudy attacked Paul in the S.C. debate for saying that American foreign policy in the Middle East over many years had fostered anger toward the U.S. and was a factor leading to 9-11, because he had to deflect attention from his liberal views and ride his horse as the hero of 9-11 (in HIS New Clothes, by the way, because his policies as mayor certainly did not help the citizens of NYC to recover–Where was his voice when the EPA, under instructions from the White House, declared the toxic air safe to breathe after three days (ask the surviving first responders)? He is using 9-11 to pander to the American people in the service of his personal ambition and, no doubt, to his indebtedness to the elitists who are destroying the American middle class. Ron Paul speaks not for himself, but in the service of the Constitution, and in so doing calls attention to the nakedness of the Neo-Cons’ avarice and obliviousness to the concerns of the American citizen.

    To call Ron Paul a “conspiracy nut job” is the kind of ad hominem attack that I expect from Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity of FLOX News. (For the uninformed, “FLOX” is urban slang for “the space inside your ears…if you say someone owns your flox, it means that they don’t shut up.”) FLOX (FOX) News never shuts up with its propaganda line, and it plays over and over, automatically in the unwary mind. The FOX pundits and propagandists own the space inside most of their viewers’ ears. Has Bones_708 been floxed by FOX?

    Because of the FLOX phenomenon, a lot of the American people still cannot think critically about the war and other issues. Dr. Paul THINKS. He has demonstrated that he has a brain. This is what is so disturbing to the power mongers and their shills like “Rudy McMitt.” Ron Paul does not cow tow to special interests. He speaks the truth. He is the only person running for President in either party who speaks truly as an American. And, that is the most important issue. It is not about Right or Left. It is about Right or Wrong. And, in this regard, Representative Ron Paul is right. How anyone with any intelligence can call a ten- term congressman, who has unswervingly followed the constitution and not special interests, “a conspiracy nut job” boggles my mind.

    In a recent interview on CNN with John King, Dr. Paul stated:

    “I’m the most conservative member of the Congress. I vote for the least amount of spending and the least amount of taxes, and they say I’m not Republican enough?

    “I mean, why don’t you challenge that side rather than challenging me and feed into the frenzy that say (sic) get rid of the reporter, get rid of the person delivering the information rather than dealing with the information? Non-intervention is a real political victory. We cannot win as Republicans next year if we just continue to dig our heels in, send more men and women over there to die on a policy that has failed.

    “That is the issue. Republicans are scared to death to face up to the truth. And my job is to make them face up to it and show them that the majority of Americans are with me, not with the current foreign policy that we’re following.”

    As I observe Dr. Paul’s efforts to be heard and the reactive efforts to demean and silence his voice, I say that we should be scared, not of the terrorists, but of the propagandists in the Republican and Democratic Parties, like “Rudy McMitt,” Karl Rove, and Saul Anuzis, the chairman of the Michigan Republican Party, who sought to eliminate Dr. Paul from future debates. In my opinion, they are the domestic enemy within and more a threat to our security than Islamic extremists. Besides, as the congressman has pointed out, Osama Bin Laden has said that he is glad that we are over there in Iraq where they can target us more easily. And, they have! More Americans have died (3,400+) there than died in the 9-11 disaster, not to mention the maimed veterans who are languishing without proper medical and rehabilitation care in hospitals or finding it difficult to readjust to their unfortunate disabilities. Who is concerned about that kind of American tragedy? Ron Paul is, and he is the only one of the Republican candidates to expose this naked attack on us, both from the domestic purveyors of war and their extremist allies in Iraq.

    I say, listen to what Dr. Paul is really saying. Look at the attire that “Rudy McMitt” is wearing and decide for yourself—is he, or is he not the most famous streaker of the 2008 election campaign?

    Ron Paul will bring our troops home immediately, and this will not impact our national security negatively in any way whatsoever. It will, instead, make our young, military citizens safer. They won’t die for a phony elitist cause (more oil for the U.S. oil barons).

    And, he will get rid of the oppressive, massive, Homeland Security bureaucracy that is making life miserable for Americans and not doing one iota to make us safer. Witness the FEMA fiasco with regard to Hurricane Katrina and all of the harassment of law abiding Americans, over 350,000 of which appear on terrorist watch lists, including the famous recent case of the retired Princeton professor who was placed on the list for giving a speech critical of George W. Bush.

    My support goes to Ron Paul. I can’t say that this decision is a no-brainer. We’ve had too many “no-brainers” pondering our national situation already. Otherwise, more people would be concerned as Congressman Paul, is about the $3 billion per day that we are borrowing from China and Japan just to finance the war in Iraq! That’s over a $1 trillion per year! This fact is an illustration of the Emperor’s New Clothes that are bought on credit.

    As Dr. Paul cautions, the chickens WILL eventually come home to roost. The prosperity bubble built on credit will burst. He is telling you to have some balls and gumption and to get out of the “chicken” coop before (Holy Sh**!) the “stuff” starts falling on you.

    We all have an automatic mind that operates like a computer on autopilot. It is critical for the survival of our democracy to recognize that if we do not take back control of our thought process, our autopilot becomes vulnerable to external control by those who would bend us to their goals. Then we become clones of the propagandists who will prompt us to “react” with programmed, knee jerk emotions and automatic thoughts and not to “respond” to the reality of our circumstances.

    Candidate Ron Paul challenges everyone to get off autopilot, and in so doing he makes those who seek to dominate us very uncomfortable. Make no mistake about it. The evidence is all around for anyone to see, who is not mentally and emotionally knee-jerking, that “our national experiment in democratic self-government,” as Dr. Robert Putnam, Dillon Professor of International Affairs and Director of the Center for International Affairs at Harvard University, has said, “is faltering” which makes us increasingly susceptible to the development of a police state in this country. Dr. Putnam is the author of the book MAKING DEMOCRACY WORK.

    After examining all of the candidates’ positions, it is clear to me that the only individual who will oppose the unrelenting movement toward corporatism (fascism) is Dr. Ron Paul. Yes, it can happen here. It already is happening here….

    I urge you to join me and SUPPORT RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT and thus elect a principled man who will act to preserve our constitutional democracy before it is too late.

  • Likkerish

    I stand corrected… by myself. :-)

    In my previous post, I wrote: “Ron Paul does not cow tow to special interests.”

    I meant to write “kowtow.”

    As far as I can discern, “cow-towing” to special interests would be the act of chaining a bovine animal to a car and dragging it down the highway to the offices of those who would further a personal agenda.

  • RolandoBini

    Michigan party chairman Saul Anuzis wants to ban Ron Paul from future debates. Why is he so afraid of Ron Paul’s opinions. This a very dangerous way of thinking. The guy is totally ignorant of the Constitution and the First Amendment. I think the neo-con Anuzis should be expelled from his position in the GOP. He is an enemy of Freedom and has a dictator’s mindset.
    Ron Paul represents hope of a better tomorrow. He is one of the few who is consistent in his positions and dares to speak truth to power. Giuliani on the other hand, without deserving, tries to capitalize on 911. He flips all the time on abortion and here in New York City when he was Major he destroyed many innocent children and their families by forcing those children into Foster Care and preparing those children for the prison system. Most New Yorkers do not like him. Not even his children like him.