THIS JUST IN! Obama’s Kenyan Birth Certificate (OOPS! Wait a minute …)

straight_jacket.jpgTHIS JUST IN!!! Obama’s real Kenyan birth certificate has been discovered! OOPS…Wait a minute…Or has it?

The birthers, a growing movement of GOPers who are trying like crazy to find something — anything — to delegitimize Barack Obama’s election and presidency while being fanned on by increasingly paranoid talk show hosts such as Glenn Beck and some Republican politicians, are at it again. There is THIS BIG NEWS! about a birth certificate proving Obama was actually born in Kenya. How about that? A President not only not born in the U. S. of A but in A-f-r-i-c-a.

There seems to be one little problem so far. Just as conservative bloggers seemingly made mince meat out of the accuracy of CBS-touted documents that some insisted would supposedly politically destroy George W Bush, some maintream conservative bloggers and liberal bloggers now seem to be in the process of making mincemeat out this latest birther excercise in trying like crazy to find something — anything — to delegitimize Barack Obama’s election and presidency..

To wit:

–Political scientist Steven Taylor, about as solid an analyst and blogger as you’ll find, writes this:

For some odd reason, the document is dated 1964 (Obama was born in 1961) and yet this document appears to mean more to the Birthers at WND than do contemporaneous birth announcements in Hawaiian newspapers at the time and the official birth certificate as issued by the state of Hawaii.

It also appears to be the case that Kenya did not declare itself to be the “Republic of Kenya” until December 1964, yet the document in question is dated February 17, 1964 and uses the phrase “Republic of Kenya” (see here). Still, this is clearly a more compelling document than those issued by those good-for-nothing, untrustworthy Hawaiian bureaucrats who are obviously in on the conspiracy to install a foreigner in the White House!

Update: LGF has what might in fact be the real Birth Certificate!

–Kos himself, writing at Daily Kos, has THIS LONG MUST-READ POST with specific details (some hilarious) suggesting that this document is not going to go down in history as the document that removed Obama from the White House.
The conservative blog The Jawa Report has a lot to say including this:

Seriously – for those still clinging to the Birther fable – knock it off. It’s not good for your sanity. You’re wrong, the evidence does not support the conspiracy claims, and you’re making it harder for us out here who are trying to fight bad policy instead of chasing and battling windmills and shadows.

Step away from “the light” and come back to Earth.

--Conservative blogger Tom McGuire, who has suggested he’s open to a good argument on this issue, also seems to be shaking his head:

So where did this document supposedly come from? It was issued on Feb 17, 1964. To whom, and why? No explanation is offered. How did it happen to be saved all these years? No explanation.

FWIW, Ms. Dunham and Mr. Obama were divorced in January 1964. Why would someone from the Kenyan side of the family want Baby Barack’s birth certificate a month later? But who from the Dunham side of the family would have requested it, saved it, and eventually pitched it to Taitz?

From another direction, some font expert may be able to opine on whether the fonts in use were available in 1964. But all that can do is discredit the document. Offhand, the only way I can think of to validate the document would be to have some Kenyan official do so. Good luck.

–Media Matters is having fun with this “revelation.”
--Pam’s House Blend:

The weak-minded Birther movement cares little about facts — they accept any fantasy explanation as they go along. They watch head birthers Darth Lou Dobbs and Orly Taitz wield their store-bought lightsabers in the air and the knuckle-dragging Birthers shout “YES!” in unison. They get all stirred up by the latest “evidence” regarding the President’s imagined birth in Kenya…then the facts undo the fantasy.

Doug Mataconis has a detailed must-read debunking of the certificate and writes:

Something tells me that the birthers are going to be sadly disappointed when this one is revealed for the forgery it most likely is.

PREDICTION: The impending failure of this to be the smoking birth certicate won’t make a bit of difference.

What is really at play is not an effort to show a fact but a burning desire to find something to delegitimize Obama and cast into doubt the entire 2008 election. It’s like the intense beliefs some cling to about the grassy knoll; the assertion by racists (who claimed what they were saying didn’t mean they were racists) in the 1960s that Martin Luther King, Jr. was really, definitely, unquestionably a full-fledged Communist and working with Moscow; or Oliver Stone’s totally unproven assertion that LBJ was involved in the Kennedy assassination.

And, yes, I know there are You Tubes about LBJ’s supposed role in Kennedy’s death. But there is also this birth certificate as well.

During the Bush administration I had someone who insisted she knew the “facts” about Dick Cheney. She rattled off a series of shocking allegations that weren’t just way out there but in another galaxy. She was convinced they were true: she heard them and they were never denied by Cheney. I’m not a fan of Cheney’s but I wondered the next time she said anything to me as fact, I tuned her totally out.

And that’s the problem for the GOP if this remains unchecked and unrepudiated. Strongly.

It’s the notion that if you don’t like someone and lose an election then you scramble in a frenzy to find some way to “get” that person personally and take them out, discredit them because that way you can stop their ideas, halt their proactive efforts to implement their policies that you hate, and discredit all of those who you feel were stupid enough or dumb enough to have voted for him (or her) — and advance your own political “sports team.”

So if something the slightest bit hazy comes up, it’s injected with several gallons of political paranoia and bile. It becomes the truth.

And if you’re challenged to come up with something that proves it’s the truth, you leap at it immediately and trumpet it for all the world to see.

This trumpet blast is turning into a massive sour note.

The bad news: Some are really into this and the movement seems to be growing as the GOP leadership and talk radio show hosts (and people such as the no-longer-mainstream CNN’s Lou Dobbs) continue to enable it, rather than use their powers or leadership or influence over audiences to halt it. It makes our political debate not about policies, but all about frantic attempts to “get” those who with whom we disagree.

The good news:
There are thoughtful conservatives who are joining with liberals and centrists to put this into perspective and who are asking pointed questions and who want no part of this.

For more reaction GO HERE and keep refreshing it.

And be sure to read THIS via Andrew Sullivan.

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  • jiggamynigga

    But this “forged” certificate has a lot more cross-reference material than Obama's short-form. Why would the hoaxer go through all this effort to produce something that could easily be disproven by opening book 44B to page 5733?

    All this nonsense would stop if Obama would produce his long-form. Why doesn't he do that Joe Gandelman? Why? For fuck's sake. Why?

  • Ohdoyou

    Just having some fun, as Joshua Simon “Oh, do you” might say, I'll keep issuing a Kenyan birth certificate until we get one that works.

  • Ohdoyou

    Just bfor fun, crank the farking bustards up.

  • MaryL

    Can someone wipe out that racist and stupid first comment? Thanks.

  • MaryL

    Ah. Blasted while I was posting. Carry on.

  • Ohdoyou

    No?

  • paullauppaullaup

    i dont think there is racial motivation behind “birther” claims (nice of you to pigeon hole people though).

    these claims were being made in the run up to the election last year. yourself and your media buddies washed over the issue then too. no facts have been aired – there simply is no proof either way whether he is eligible or not. it is the proof that people want to see!

    this new birth certificate is as unvalidated as the one obama himself issued – however it contains more information than the one he produced.

    and regarding the date 1964 – this was the date of his parents' divorce. this certificate was likely requested for use in that – and obviously the court papers dealing with this divorce are all under seal too, with obama preventing their release.

    surely by now you're getting a whiff that something is not right..

  • bonesboy

    I just wanted to weigh in here. I'm a moderate independent and have been following the issue of Obama's natural born citizen status as well as various other statements from the Obama administration that don't seem to hold water to me. I am one of many others whose political leanings are irrelevant to this issue, who are curious to know who Obama really is and what he really stands for, and aren't satisfied with the lack of information and/or contradictory information available… I don't get bogged down over it, I am not fanatical over it. BUT… I do want to have answers that I do not yet have. Because the answers to those questions could have a dramatic impact on how I live my life in this country. So I do pay attention. And I think it would be unwise to simply ignore these issues. Ignoring it won't make it go away. It has legs because it does, all on its own. The fanatics are not carrying this one, despite what the news media would have you think.

  • MaryL

    … and the racist first comment is back again. What the hell?

    Those of you saying there could be something to this, that the certificate was issued because of the divorce: puh-lease. Look up “straws — grasping at”. There are several clear problems with this alleged Kenyan birth certificate as described above and in the links.

  • jiggamynigga

    Boohoo, you're breakin' my heart.

  • paullauppaullaup

    transparency, accountability. this is what people want, but it's not happening despite these were the messages he campaigned on. and his supporters still blindly follow lol.

    incidentally, i dont live in the usa, and am not american either. i have been watching this issue since last year.

    it's time you questioned your media imho.

  • jiggamynigga

    “There are several clear problems with this alleged Kenyan birth certificate as described above and in the links.”

    Tell us about them, MaryL. What are these “clear problems”.

  • patriotshaun

    Birther movement? Come on, doesn't anyone believe in seeking out the truth if a problem with our government arises anymore? For that matter you could call it the truth seeking movement or any other label that is not so hard hitting and derogatory to anything that doesn't suite their Utopian opinion. It is just like the liberals to quickly shut down any questions that arise from conservative America. How can you know it is not a fake? It is not in your hands, you are not a document specialist. If it is found out he has committed fraud in attempt to gain the Presidency, it wouldn't be the first time a President lied or committed fraud. If it is fake America deserves to know. Just like the left attacked “W's” military service, all facts should be known. This is not asking if he cheated on a test in college. This is a matter of constitutional law, a matter that could later on question the legitimacy of our government if we don't follow the guidelines of the constitution. Some of you are living in a fairy-tale Utopia that doesn't exist. Wait and see if it is authenticated first, and if not a first let someone else no affiliated do it again to make sure. Justice needs to prevail in either case unbiased, blind and true.

  • imagephreak

    Liberals will call you an idiot, a moron, a fringe looney, tin foiler, birther, wacko. The name calling in itself should tell you all you need to know about these guys.

  • MorganLvr

    There isn't a “long form” so that makes it really hard to produce. Now, someone told someone that Hawaii kept the long forms after they went digital and that they are, and I quote: “Somewhere.” No one else has mentioned this, and the state office said categorically that there were NO long forms at all any more for anyone.

    Now, if you want to take this one person's “somewhere” and run with it, be my guest. Remember though, Hawaii is a large, strung out state and that “somewhere” might take a long time to find. But, I assume you have nothing better to do or you wouldn't be worrying about it in the first place…..

  • paullauppaullaup

    orly taitz' court case is effectively asking the state to confirm with Great Britain and Kenya whether the document is legitimate. if it is, there will be another official copy within the records in both countries. Orly is in the UK today so perhaps that is why…

  • brucefletcher

    Kenya was made independent from Britain in 1963, and was most certainly styling itself “The Republic of Kenya” by Februarry 1964

  • paullauppaullaup

    and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton touches down in Kenya today in a conveniently well timed 7-nation trip of africa.

    all coincedences??

  • faucetman

    “Ms. Dunham and Mr. Obama were divorced in January 1964″. LIE. Divorce decree dated MARCH FIVE 1964, Custody effective MARCH TWENTY 1964. from a copy of the ACTUAL DECREE OF DIVORCE. Get your facts right. Dated 1964, Obama born 1961, SO WHAT? Probably required fvor the divorce, the timing fits exactly. Besides Obama's FAKE COLB was dated in 2007. “Republic of Kenya” arguement doesn't prove anything. Easy enough to find other BCs to compare it to. We present logic law and facts, you guys call names and present platitudes. You anti-birthers have NO FACTS. Just your insane, blind alliegence to this usurper. I can't understand why.

  • shannonlee

    I think the username “jigga my nigga” needs to be blown away. I don't have a problem with his insane comments, but the name is using the phrase “nigga” as a racist insult, not a term of endearment.

    just my humble opinion.

  • daundersheriff

    The WND posted birth certificate from Kenya, where Obama's mother was photographed in her third trimester I might add, says plainly 1961, not 1964 as suggested in your post. Go back to WND, take off the rose colored glasses, and stop seeing what you want to see.

  • jiggamynigga

    This issue always seems to devolve in one side calling the other racist or republican…this is unfair to some people because, they're labeled racists though they aren't judging Obama on his skin color but rather his marxist socialist ideologies.

    Most people are too ignorant to understand what Obama is doing, so most people can't participate in political discussions and can only label people that disagree with Obama's policies as racists. It's much easier for the layfolk like Joe Gandelman and MaryL to attack messenger with ad homs than attack the data.

    Then, there's the fact that most people don't quite understand that this is not a liberal/conservative issue. It doesn't matter which party is put in power. They both answer to an even higher power.

    Dems and Republicans can deal with insignificant issues any way they want…the larger issues like illegal warfare in the Middle-East, foreign government destabilization, looting African countries, are all dealt by a more clandestine agglomeration of corporations and wealthy families that own both parties.

    People that call others racist or conservative or liberals are living in a lower sphere of consciousness.

  • AustinRoth

    Other than Shannon objecting (rightfully) against improper language, glad to see no other regular posters here.

    What idiocy.

    He, of course, is NOT an American citizen, though. He is indeed an alien, but a REAL alien. Haven't any of you watched the TV show “V”? That was a DOCUMENTARY!!

    The truth is out there, hiding in mental hospitals.

  • jiggamynigga

    Jay-Z hates you, AustinRoth.

  • captainsteve

    I don’t trust ANY politician and almost no one in the media. I still want two answers.

    1) Why can't we see his long-form? Obama knows that millions of citizens want to see it yet he continues to hide it. What/why is he hiding?

    and most disturbingly,

    2) Why don't BHO's supporters want to know the whole truth, especially since there’s a reward of $100,000 for proof that Obama is a “natural born” citizen of the United States.

    OBAMA, STOP HIDING. SHOW US THE LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!!!

  • seabee

    There are a lot of quite reasonable people who resent the fact that they took a leap of faith and voted for a lying despot who spoke of transparancy and change in Washington. The transparancy we got: same old Washington cronism undermined by an unaccountable stealth government ruled by “czars”, and a president who is trying to strongarm Congress and an unwilling electorate into transforming the face of American while bancrupting it at the same time using his force of personality and a complicent media to do so. The birth certificate fever is of BHO's own making because Mr. Transparancy has buried all aspects of his personal life from birth to Columbia to personal connections to his health records. He is hiding everything so why am I crazy to wonder why?

  • bob65

    He has a long-form birth certificate on file if he was born it Hawaii, just like everyone else. He is the president, so I don't think Hawaii is going to tell him he can't have a copy of his own long-form certificate to prove of disprove his eligibility.

    He could post it and be done with this……..he won't.

    Something is bad wrong, and it's not the people that are trying to penetrate the veil of secrecy around Obama's past.

  • mlhradio

    >>Other than Shannon objecting (rightfully) against improper language, glad to see no other regular posters here.

    What idiocy.<<

    Indeed. Nice to see how a story about the birther/teabagger loons will bring the vermin out of the woodwork. And pretty much all of them first-time posters, what a coincidence! Funny how that works, eh? (I would be curious to see what birther conspiracy blog is linking to TMV to bring these thoughtful, intelligent souls over here).

    Anyway, just to re-post a comment here, as to why it is never a good idea to answer any of the silly “Why not produce a birth certificate?” questions, that I had posted in another discussion thread a few days ago:

    ——-

    For a few good reasons why Americans continue to humor the silly teabagger/birthers, here's a blog entry I ran across on TPM recently: (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/repu…) – I did not write this, just copying it from the link above:

    Because its equally pointless, I enjoy answering birther challenges as much as they like slinging them. So I'll examine a few of their questions.

    Why doesn't Obama submit to the demands of the birthers? The birthers are demanding that Obama prove himself innocent to the unobtainable satisfaction of the birthers on a matter that the birthers have zero evidence Obama has done anything wrong. “Prove yourself innocent.” That's the recipe for a witch hunt.

    Submitting to the birthers would make them feel empowered. All this “why doesn't he just fork over the certificate if he has nothing to hide” nonsense is ignorant. The birthers think they have a threat. “Submit to us, or we'll accuse you of something terrible.” It also shows the impossibility of reasoning with birthers, as anyone who understands logic knows that absense of evidence is not evidence.

    The birthers have no agenda but to destroy those who disagree with them. There is no search for the truth. There is a search for the most effective lie. The lies and accusations go on forever, no matter what is produced. It can only get worse.

    There is no upside to proving anything. If Obama turns over a document that disproves what the birthers claim, the birthers will just call it a forgery, or just plain pretend it isn't there like the newspaper announcements of Obama's birth.

    There is no downside to refusing to submit. The public sees the birthers as kooks, so there is no way the birther nonsense will snowball. In fact, the more exposure it gets, the worse Republicans look. Mainstream Republicans know that, so they have to distance themselves. That angers the birthers, who in turn reject the Republican party. The GOP could split.

    The funniest part is, the GOP pushed hatred and lies through the right wing media to create a segment of the population that is stupid and furious. Now the GOP is getting strangled by the very Frankenstein they created. They have no way to turn it off.

    Why would Obama stand in the way of that?

    ALSO: The Constitution provides many safeguards when choosing a president. The last step is the certification of the election by Congress. That's final. If it turned out later that Obama wasn't a citizen, he'd still be president and all his actions would be valid. The only way to remove him is by impeachment. The courts have no power here.

  • springfieldreformer

    The Nordyke twins were born at almost exactly the same time as O, and they do have long forms that have been published on the web. Hawaii might not be generating long forms for new births now occurring but they certainly were being generated in 1961. I was born stateside in 1954, and all I ever had for years was my long form. They are significant as evidence because they are created by the actual hospital at the time of actual birth with little to no opportunity for falsification. Abstracts (short forms) of the kind offered by O can, under some circumstances, be generated on sworn testimony of persons without requiring the issuer to have direct exposure to the birth event. As for storage, it is standard practice for digitization projects, once complete, to store the paper originals in bulk. The hypothesis that such a storage facility exists is simply an extrapolation of that standard practice and is therefore a reasonable position to take. Sorry.

  • patriotshaun

    mlhradio, is a left-wing propaganda spewing liberal. These are the kind of attacks the left give along with insults because that is the only way they can be seen as intelligent. You may see conservatives as “birthers”, we may see you as “anti-American socialist”. Think about it, your views are far removed from traditional America. Read “Liberty and Tyranny” get some true perspective from the principles of our founding. If you don't like it, move to one of the socialist countries back east, there are plenty to choose from. Don't try to change the last shining light of freedom into what the rest of the world tried and failed, a socialist state controlled by the government.

  • Zzzzz

    patriotshaun,

    Actually “patriot”shaun, we don't just see you as paranoid conspiracy freaks, we also see you as the kind of profoundly anti-American nutjobs who want to bring this government and, thus, our country down because you don't like democracy. You like a government that agrees with you, and you are willing to accept and believe what ever craziness you can to get it, even if it means overturning the popular will. Not accepting the results of this last election and working to undermine it means that you are actively working against the democratic process. You aren't a patriot. You are working against American values.

  • evilobot

    I would like to know what other presidents had to produce their birth certificates?This Black man with an Swahili first and last name and Arabic middle name,can't be one of us.After all he comes from this exoctic background so he cant be legitmate.

    Jon Stewarts explaination makes a lot sense.Barack Hussein Obama Sr.wanted to destroy the USA.So he plotted the USA birth certificate and birth announcements,knowing that Barack Hussien Obama II was born in kenya.He waits for that baby to become a middle age man who becomes president.Bingo you have the real reason Obama is hiding his birth certificate.

    The whole thing has made me sad,that I was so wrong about how far we have come as nation.

  • ordinarysparrow

    5) Comments that are abusive, offensive, contain profane or racist material or violate the terms of service for this blog’s host provider will be removed and the author(s) banned from future comments. Such comments also violate the very SPIRIT of this site — which was created to encourage thoughtful and vigorous discussion among readers who may share differing viewpoints.

    the first commenter is not over the line he has fallen off the cliff. . .the F word shrug, but the id name is not at all appropriate. . .

  • jiggamynigga

    Zzzzz, and you're working for Nazi values.

  • jiggamynigga

    I find the ordinarysparrow nick offensive. Begone.

  • GeorgeSorwell

    John Kerry went through this.

    There's always some underlying documentation that, oh why doesn't he just easily answer the questions and release it.

    As if!

  • mlhradio

    Remember, folks – don't feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

  • springfieldreformer

    Burden of proof rests with the man who would be president. It is his job to show he is qualified, and arguably O has come a little short of meeting that burden. This is not a criminal trial, where that state has to show all the elements of the crime have occurred. This is a valid legal requirement to holding a position of great power and authority, and NO one is automatically entitled to that position. Show us your creds or apply somewhere else.

    And yes, he absolutely does have to submit to the constitutional authority vested in the people because that is how the system works. It is our show and it is intended that we be empowered. That is exactly what the founders wanted for us, to keep us free from those who would put us back in chains, by creating a system of accountability of the leaders to the people. That's America. Deal with it.

    There is an upside to producing indisputable evidence to support a legal conclusion of natural born citizenship. This birther controversy is not harmless partisan fun. I am not a Republican, and many others asking questions come from diverse political backgrounds. But now we have a president who will not release one tiny little piece of paper that will silence those with sincere doubt, and he won't do it. This is causing an unseen crisis inside the military. Factions are forming and doubt of command authority is growing. In warfare, the military runs on fast and effective obedience to command and control. Introduce a paralyzing poison like this, and you seriously endanger our ability to respond to an emergent military crisis. Do you really want the guy in the silo with his finger on the final button to be wondering if his commander in chief is a foreign imposter? Do you realize how bad this is?

    As long as the President refuses to quell the storm of doubt, he remains culpable in any adverse effects that might later arise due to this crisis in confidence. I pray he is not doing this deliberately for political effect, such as holding out on revealing dispositive vital records, because it then becomes a crude and evil form of manipulation, and he still remains culpable for any political debilitation that results. I did not think he campaigned on “destroying” his enemies, but on record-breaking “transparency.”

    As for redress if it turns out he is proven unqualified, I agree this may be the most difficult problem to resolve. If no legal means of redress can be found, the problem of a country paralyzed by doubt will remain. I am a peace-loving person, but those who are not may feel compelled to resort to desperate measures. I think GWB got away with too many constitutional violations, and it may be O will do the same. Nevertheless, in O's case, the effect on the military could be so bad we could end up with unpredictable military behavior in a serious national or international crisis. It is irresponsible to let this danger grow. He should set that birth certificate free.

  • patriotshaun

    Zzzzz, you can think of me what you will. I served my country in the military and serve my community still. And I'm the one trying to bring this country down. Sounds like the rants and same old attacks from the left. You are no different than the rest of the government controlled drones and media. Maybe you can grow up one day and think for yourself. I doubt everyone one feels the same way you do either. I believe in the facts, rule of law and follow. I'm grounded in reality and follow the principle of the founding fathers not some idealistic statest. Have a nice day:)

  • hillaryvoter

    The bottom line is someone has to prove in court that this Kenyan birth certificate is fraudulent, if in fact it is.

    It has more info on it than Obama's “Hawaiian bc”.

    The simple way to prove that is to stop concealing the “real birth certificate” with the hospital name and signatures.

    Frankly, I don't think there is a real Hawaiian birth certificate that shows Obama actually born in Hawaii or he would have disclosed it by now, rather than paying lawyers million$ to hide it along with his college records, etc.

  • igormarxomarxovich

    Old Russian saying…You can tell same lie 1000 time(Ms. Pelosi) but not change truth!

    Difference between USSR Communist media and USA “mainstream media”

    In Russia government make media say what they want – even if lie.
    In USA “mainstream media” try make government what they want – even if lie..
    …..eventually they become same thing?!

    I Igor produce Obama Birth Certificate at http://www.igormaro.org

  • Don Quijote

    And that’s the problem for the GOP if this remains unchecked and unrepudiated. Strongly.

    It’s the notion that if you don’t like someone and lose an election then you scramble in a frenzy to find some way to “get” that person personally and take them out, discredit them because that way you can stop their ideas, halt their proactive efforts to implement their policies that you hate, and discredit all of those who you feel were stupid enough or dumb enough to have voted for him (or her) — and advance your own political “sports team.”

    ROTFLMAO, Standard Operating Procedure for the Republicans…

    Throw enough sh*t against the wall and sooner or later some is bound to stick…

    See Whitewater

    Or < a href="http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html" rel="nofollow">Swift boat veterans for truth

  • Don Quijote

    springfieldreformer,

    Burden of proof rests with the man who would be president.

    Too late dimwit… He is the President of the United States of America, He won the Electoral College and the Popular Vote. That makes him President, get over it…

  • springfieldreformer

    Bull. Now dissent is bad, because it's coming from the right? Or perhaps you think we should only dissent on broad policy issues and never challenge constitutionally controlled specifics of the political process. But the right of the people to express their grievances is not so constrained. If you think it is, the burden is on you to show us chapter and verse. Where is it written that we cannot call out deception, error, and corruption in the political process itself? I thought that was the duty of the loyal opposition. Question authority, right? Do you know what makes somebody “American?” Buying into the founding legal principles is not a bad place to start. We have a constitution for a reason. A constitution is a commitment of a family of likeminded people to care for each other and an agreement that the best way to do that is to live under a shared set of rules, aka, the rule of law, not men. When you start writing a free pass to violate that constitution anytime you have a dog in the fight, you erode and potentially break that social contract. You invite the chaotic breakdown of the legitimate authority structure. This is bad for everybody. It's bad when either or any party does it. It gives reason for tyrannies to emerge, to fill the void left by the mass exodus from constitutional order. Therefore, defending the constitutional order is among the highest of American values, because the constitutional order is the secret ingredient that gives us our freedom. The zeal to overcome election results that are based on fraud and deceit is entirely consistent with those values and absolutely essential to the maintenance of freedom. That zeal to heal our political process, if tempered with right reason and a civil temperament, is the very heart of patriotism.

  • patriotshaun

    springfieldformer, you have a great point! The problem is liberals don't want to hear what is supposed to be, they only care about their ideologies and don't care who they have to step on to make their minority views take precedent over majority. The constitution is nothing but a hurdle in their way. Change? Its just business as usual. In short, they don't care. They are programmed drones that can't think for themselves or just hate what America..

  • Holly_in_Cincinnati

    This issue is simply not going to go away until President Obama publicly releases his birth certificate, something he should have done over a year ago.

  • springfieldreformer

    So if someone gets hired as a lawyer but they don't have a valid license, does that make it “too late” to stop them from practicing law? Or would you be comfortable with finding out, after the fact, that the man you thought was your brain surgeon was actually a used car salesman with a phony medical license?

    So riddle me this. What if Kim Jong Il got plastic surgery (let's say he looked like Edwards), got flawless US papers, etc., ran for President, won the popular vote, and won the electoral college. Then we found the smoking gun – a lock of his original hair provided DNA evidence of his real identity. You're telling me we would have to just sit there as the American people and take it while he systematically deconstructed our free markets, our private industries, our world-class health care system, and turned us into his latest North Korean social experiment? Just sit there and do nothing? No redress whatsoever? The air here is rich with the scent of Kool-Aid …

  • Don Quijote

    This issue is simply not going to go away until President Obama publicly releases his birth certificate, something he should have done over a year ago.

    <a href=”http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/b… – Born in the U.S.A.

    Doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether Obama shows his Birth Certificate or not, the Birthers will believe what they want to believe no matter what. They just can't get over the fact that a Black man got elected President of the United States.

  • http://themoderatevoice.com T_Steel

    Comments on this thread have been moderated. Certain comments made to the moderated comments may not make sense.

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  • patriotshaun

    You would be a complete moron to believe that. Not everyone is a racist, but many choose to use the race card to justify their cause. I figured that intellectual liberals would have a better word to disregard conservatives than birther. How about using words like “concerned Americans” rahter than attack labels.

  • GeorgeSorwell

    Obama's mother was a US citizen.

    That makes him a US citizen.

  • AustinRoth

    GS – actually, not necessarily a true statement:

    In 1961, citizenship by birth was governed by Montana v. Kennedy (366 U.S. 308 (1961)). The court ruled that a child born abroad prior to May 24, 1934, to an American citizen mother did not acquire American citizenship at birth, since at that time citizenship at birth was transmitted only by a citizen father. Although subsequent legislation conferred upon American women the power to transmit citizenship to their children born abroad, such legislation was not retroactive and did not bestow citizenship on persons born before the enactment of such legislation.

    For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:

    1. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
    2. The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
    3. A minimum of 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

    I am NOT a birther (obviously, I would hope), but don't like leaving false statements or asumptions unchallenged.

  • roro80

    “Obama's mother was a US citizen.

    That makes him a US citizen.”

    THANK YOU George. Good buddah, does nobody know anything? Has nobody ever known someone born overseas to American parents? Blah blah about birth certificates, the man was born a US citizen because of his mother whether or not it happened in the US, unless at some point during his adulthood he legally renounced his citizenship.

  • AustinRoth

    roro –

    See my response to GS. He is wrong.

  • roro80

    AR — I thought that it was retroactive? I had more than one friend born overseas, one of which was a citizen here only through her mother. I could certainly be wrong though.

  • DanDierdorf

    Wow, just “Oh wow”. Farking amazing the blindness so many show, repeatedly and worse, loudly.

    Hey Birthers! I demand each and every one of you submit yourselves to DNA testing as I suspect you all to be something other than human based on the complete lack of logic being exhibited.

    And since according to your own logic my questioning something puts the burden on you, you must submit to my demand or labeled “not human”.

    Thank you.

  • Almoderate

    I believe a few others also pointed out a couple of things:

    1. The font is off, and if the fold lines are legitimate, why isn't the print faded in the creases?

    2. The crest is some odd version of the British crest and not the Kenyan one. If the Kenyan government was using its own documents between 1963 and the end of 1964, why would it not also have its own crest on these documents?

    3. The Kenyan government and the hospital have both said that they have found no such evidence of Obama's supposed birth there, but this is considered acceptable. The State of Hawaii issued an official statement before the election saying that they do have the original birth documents, and this is not acceptable?

    4. In other news, Prince William has said that he sees no evidence that I'm his long lost sister. I find it a little suspicious that any evidence regarding my origins as British royalty has been “lost.” Why can't you just produce the evidence, William? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE???

    5. The document appears to be signed by a brand of hand soap.

    6. If you accuse someone of doing something illegal or wrong, the burden of proof is on YOU and not the person being accused. I personally would like Glenn Beck to prove to me that he was not born in a test tube in Sean Hannity's secret basement lab, but I somehow doubt that he'd be able to provide satisfactory “proof” to the contrary. The burden of proof would be on me, the accuser. Speaking of which, I do have pictures of Sean Hannity's secret basement lab and what could possibly be pictures of a test tube containing an embryonic Glenn Beck. I'll post them just as soon as I learn how to use PhotoShop.

    And if you weren't entirely sure just HOW crazy the other conservatives view birthers, I know of at least one teabagger (and one who bought into the whole right wing extremist report conspiracy theory) who specifically requested that birthers not show up to the tea parties.

    AustinRoth, you are half-right. I firmly believe he was born on Galifrey. If you see a little blue police box parked in the Oval Office, you know why.

    “in the South the 'a replacing the 'er' is in frequent usage” Oh, hon… Don't pin this one on us. That one was started by the rappers, many of whom are from the west coast. In fact, one of the bloggers quoted in the above article is an Alabama college professor. Stereotypes = bad. (Not to mention, it's been my personal experience with the few but very loud “Old Southers” left down here that the “er” is still very much in frequent usage with not even a mild attempt to soften it.)

    “Bull. Now dissent is bad, because it's coming from the right?” I'm sorry, but I can't hear your QQ from my “Free Speech Zone.”

  • BertieBasset

    I have not heard anyone mention one HUGE point in all of this yet.
    If it does indeed turn out that Obama's Mother fudged the location of his birth, then he is not only not a natural born Citizen…he is not a Citizen at all. He would not only be put out of office but also deported.
    If she had been honest, and had done the paperwork necessary he would probably have been a Citizen by the time he was a teenager. Since she covered up at the time where he was born, the naturalization process was never needed…….

  • patriotshaun

    You cannot have dual citizenship and be be President either.

  • patriotshaun

    No, unless he was born on a military installation or other American territory, he is not a born citizen. The one US parent rule doesn't apply in America like it does in other countries.

  • patriotshaun

    Ha! That's funny, he'll most likely abuse his power as President to cover this up if it does turn out to be true that he was in fact born in now Kenya. Remember Nixon's cover up?

  • BertieBasset

    Exactly, but his mother a naturalized U.S. Citizen would definitely have been able to bring her child to the U.S. and do routine paperwork to petition for his Permanent Resident status. Basicly a formality.

    He would never have been able to run for president, not being “Natural Born” but I'm sure his mother didn't think of that at the time, probably just too lazy to do all the paperwork and pay the fees. Ironic !!

  • faucetman

    you are correct it doesn't matter if Obummer shows his BC, BECAUSE he is NOT a “Natural Born Citizen” under the constitution article II, section 1, clause 5. “Natural Born Citizen” is a type of citizenship only required to be president. Obama's father was a FOREIGNER, this means Obama CAN NOT BE a “Natural Born Citizen”. Not a “citizen at birth” (different). Not a “naturalized citizen” (different).
    I can't help it thet your education in PUBLIC school was lacking and you didn't learn about the constitution and NOW you can't be bothered to look this stuff up and see that we are correct as to Obama's ineligibility to be president. You thought Bush STOLE the election? He was a PIKER compared to Obama. This is the biggest fraud perpetrated on the American people in history. Do I believe Obama was NOT born in the U.S.A.? YES I DO. Kenya, Canada, I don't know for sure. But I do KNOW that he is a FRAUD. a USURPER, a Marxist, a racist, a Black Liberation Theology ptractitioner. And I want him GONE. Prison, preferably, but out of MY WHITEHOUSE.

  • patriotshaun

    Governor Schwarzenegger of California cannot run for President for similar reasons, because he was not born here. But he earned his citizenship and is serving his job as governor proudly and justly in spite of the fact that he can never become President. If President Obama has nothing to hide, why doesn't he be forthcoming towards the scrutiny? Why is he refusing to disclose his personal records. Ok, so you say the burden of proof is on us, as an elected official we have an absolute right to scrutinize him because he is an elected official serving us and not our dictator.

  • BertieBasset

    There is some confusion, a person is a “Natural Born Citizen” if they are born on US soil… regardless of parentage. I know many people like this. I myself on the other hand am a Naturalized Citizen, born outside the U.S. to non US Citizen parents. My point is that Obama (if it is proven at some point that he was indeed born in Kenya) is not a Natural Born Citizen and so not qualified for Presidency. BUT and this is a HUGE point. He did not naturalize and become a Naturalized Citizen either, this would be because of his mother fudging the location of his birth, so as to not bother with the Naturalization process.

  • patriotshaun

    Well stated Bertie. You have every right to be outraged by a potential problem this can cause. My family came here with William Penn's Colony and in Jameston, Virginia during the early 1600's. My family has paid for in blood the rights you and I both have. You have earned your right to be called an American. It should be an honor for him to prove his worthiness to all Americans citizens. He apparently thinks that he doesn't have to answer to us surfs.

  • http://markthispage.blogspot.com ddadm09

    I am following this closely to see where this conspiracy ends. Meanwhile I have collected some good articles and sites related to Barack Obama (more than 200 sites or articles). If you are interested take a look at the below link
    http://markthispage.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-do

  • eyesopen007

    If you buy into any of the following liberal LIES, then it would make sense to drop the “birth certificate” argument about the “O”. But since they are all easily refuted (as most liberal LIES are), then any good citizen of the United States that has ever pledged “allegiance to the flag and to the nation for which it stands” should be duty bound to protect the Constitution of the United States and demand that it be upheld by the President, the Vice President, the Senators, the Congress Persons, the Supreme Court, and every other officer of these United States.
    Here are the LIES being told on this issue:

    1. If the “O” is a citizen, then he is eligible to be President.

    2. The “Certification of Live Birth” published by “The Daily Kos” and the “Fight the Smears” websites proves the “O” was born in Hawaii.

    3. The birth notices published in the Honolulu newspapers prove that the “O” was born in Hawaii.

    4. The fact that the “O”’s mother was a U.S. citizen is enough to make the “O” eligible to be President..

    Here are the refutations of those lies:

    1. The Constitution clearly states that the President must be a “natural born citizen” and there are clear court rulings on just exactly what that entails. It is more than just being a “citizen”.

    2. Even if the “Certification of Live Birth” document were genuine (which it most probably is not) it would not prove that the “O” was born in Hawaii since the State of Hawaii does issue that document to people born outside of Hawaii, not only in other States but also in other Countries. There is nothing on that document that states anything about WHERE the person is born. The State of Hawaii itself does not recognize this document as proof of Hawaiian citizenship for many State legal purposes.

    3. The newspapers used the issuance of the “Certification of Live Birth” documents (see above) as one their “triggers” to publish a birth announcement. The announcements were not necessarily submitted by any relative of the child. The announcements do not state WHERE the person was born.

    4. It can easily be confirmed that BOTH parents must be “U.S. Citizens” for the child to be considered a “natural born citizen”, especially if the child is born outside of the United States. The courts have ruled on this more than once. The “O”’s father was NEVER a U.S. Citizen of any kind. Also, the “O”’s mother was not an old enough (over the age of fourteen) U.S. Citizen for a long enough period of time when the “O” was born for even her to qualify legally under the law to confer any “natural born” status on the “O”.

    Even if the first four items did prove the “O” was a “natural born citizen” (which they do not) the “O” would have lost that citizenship when his mother married Mr. Lolo Soetoro, and Mr. Soetoro adopted the “O” and moved the family to Indonesia and enrolled little “Barry Soetoro” in the Indonesian school. Under Indonesian law, Mr. Soetoro could not have moved his wife and adopted child to Indonesia and enrolled that child in the Indonesian school unless they were Indonesian citizens, and they could not have become Indonesian citizens without renouncing their U.S. citizenships. Since there has never been any evidence that the “O” ever applied to regain his U.S. citizenship when he moved back to Hawaii, it is entirely possible that not only is the “O” not a “natural born citizen”, he might even be an ILLEGAL ALIEN!

    So let’s not be so quick to allow the liberals and misguided conservatives to sweep all this under the rug. Even if the liberals don’t seem to think so, it is important that we stick to the constitution as it was written.

  • jwest

    Holly in Cincinnati has shown us that there is hope for humanity.

    Yes, simply show the document to put this all to rest.

  • Don Quijote

    And here are the partisan and regional breakdowns, which show that the false belief that Obama was not born in this country is most commonly held by Republicans and residents of the South:

    Yes No Not sure
    Dem 93 4 3
    Rep 42 28 30
    Ind 83 8 9

    Northeast 93 4 3
    South 47 23 30
    Midwest 90 6 4
    West 87 7 6

    Need anyone say more?

    To paraphrase John Stuart Mills:
    Not all Republicans/Conservatives are racists, but most racist are Republican/Conservatives.

  • patriotshaun

    Baloney. I have met many people here of ethnic minority who are as equally prejudiced as any so called conservative. Prejudice today is much better than it was for minorities than decades ago. In fact, we now have reverse discrimination in which minorities are prejudice against a larger majority race. And often, the liberals are the one to pull the race card more than anyone. Who to say there not the ones that are prejudice?

  • patriotshaun

    Ha, where do you get your polls from? CNN, CBS or NBC? All liberal biased.

  • patriotshaun

    Eyesopen007, nicely put. Maybe thats why he want s amnesty for illegals, so he can be legal too…JK:)

  • AustinRoth

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are Communists, but most Communists are Democrats/Liberals.

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are perverts, but most perverts are Democrats/Liberals.

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are self-loathing racists, but most self-loathing racists are Democrats/Liberals.

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are elitists, but most elitists are Democrats/Liberals.

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are anti-Americans, but most anti-Americans are Democrats/Liberals.

    HEY! This is fun and easy. And it requires no thinking or actual facts, like all good Leftist propaganda. No wonder you guys like mindless sloganeering so much.

  • RememebrNovember

    JJ Abrams is remaking that series. Should be interesting.

  • lawboy87

    “The bottom line is someone has to prove in court that this Kenyan birth certificate is fraudulent, if in fact it is.” – Hillary Voter

    Sorry, no that is not how it works. The burden of proof is on the person producing the document (and might I add here, this isn't even a copied “document” it's a photograph of a purported document) and claiming it to be genuine.

    But before we even get to that level, the person filing suit has to establish they have “standing” in order to bring the suit in the first place, that the court has subject matter and personal jurisdiction over all the parties to the suit before we even come close to getting to the issues of “proof” or “evidence.”

    No one has to prove this document isn't real, or at least not at this stage of the game, it would be up to the person filing the document with the court to establish its validity. And I doubt that Orly Taitz – mail order lawyer and her “assistant” Charles Lincoln – 3 time disbarred Atty (CA, TX & FL) have either a valid document or the ability to establish to a court's satisfaction that the document is real and/or reliable.

  • roro80

    Wow, AR, so I can see some of those and agree, but where do you get “perverts”? anti-Americans (I'm assuming that you're talking about people who are here in the states)? The funniest is “elitists”. Of course, that word has been overused and morphed in the past year such that it has essentially no meaning. “Self-loathing racists” — is that codeword for “black”? Or are you talking about those white racists who at least have the good taste to realize that being racist is bad? (BTW, on this point, I'd certainly agree with you if you're talking about the latter; most people have ingrained fear and/or hatred toward people of other races, certainly including Dems.) I guess I would argue that if you're going to be a racist, it's better to do so as the Dems do — try to atone, however inadequately or even offensively — instead of as the Reps do — revel in it like pigs in the mud.

  • AustinRoth

    roro -

    It does depend on where you are born (US territory or military base, for instance); active duty status, etc. The full details of what counts and what does not are byzantine, to say the least, which is why But as a general rule, unless there is something I missed, what I posted are the rule.

    Oh, and now we have those splitting the hair of what the definition of 'natural born' means. reminds me of the nuts who claim the tassels on the US flags used at press conferences show we are actually under military dictatorship law, or some such nonsense.

  • Don Quijote

    Not all Democrats/Liberals are elitists, but most elitists are Democrats/Liberal

    Elite? What's wrong with elite?

    If I am a Harvard Professor, I am a member of the intellectual elite, it means that I am smarter and better educated than you are or most people for that matter.

    If I am a Harvard Professor, I am a member of the scientific elite, it means that I am smarter and better educated than you are or most people for that matter.

    If I am a member of the SEALs, I am a member of a Military elite, it means that I am one of the toughest, best trained soldier on the face of the planet.

    If I am an athlete playing any sport professionally, it means that I am a better athlete that 99.9% of all people living on this planet and am therefor a member of an elite.

    Elite is good, the only people who think it's bad are the idiots who think that reading a history book makes them an historian, writing a spreadsheets makes them a programmer and nailing two pieces of wood makes them a carpenter. It doesn't… Elite is what you are when you are amongst the best at what you do…

    So if the intellectual, artistic, scientific or military elites are liberals/democrats, I would consider that to be an endorsement of the Party and it's aspiration.

  • Zzzzz

    Barack Obama has a US passport which he has held well before he became president. Somebody saw his birth certificate. But whatever. It isn't like any of you birthers would ever be Obama supporters, even if you had the iron-clad vault long-form copy. You'd still fight his presidency with everything you had. Dissent is one thing. Dissent is lobbying your representatives, doing grassroots organizing, protesting, etc, related to political issues. Trying to bring down a duly elected president based on a whacky conspiracy theory and zero real proof (as in a non-fake Kenyan birth certificate or something that is actual evidence) is sedition.

  • jwest

    Roro,

    If it weren’t for perverts, I doubt Democrats could ever win an election. Almost as strong as the Hobo contingent, but not as dependable.

    Haven’t’ you ever wondered why the Dems lobby so hard to get the voting rights restored to convicted felons and even current prisoners? These are solid Democrats who will go to work for MoveOn or Acorn immediately on release in voter outreach programs.

  • roro80

    jwest — Perverts don't flock to one party or another. Evidence? Any? They do, however, seem to come from one gender.

  • Don Quijote

    They do, however, seem to come from one gender.

    Would that be the gender that votes predominantly Republican by any chance?

  • roro80

    Why, DQ, it would be just that gender!

  • AustinRoth

    roro –

    Dude. Come on. You don't recognize someone using hyperbole to point out the stupidity of the post they are responding to? Especially given how I ended it?

    Lighten up, bro.

  • Don Quijote

    Why, DQ, it would be just that gender! Funny, that, eh?

    Does it mean that I can now say:

    Not all Republicans/Conservatives are perverts, but most perverts are Republicans/Conservatives.

    And be saying nothing but the truth?

  • roro80

    AR — Bro, I'm like totally lightened up, dude. It was just that the first one of your hyperboles is probably true, and the rest are all like opposite-worldy. So I was a little confused as to whether you going for hyperbole or satire. Bro.

  • GeorgeSorwell

    This, entitled “Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born Abroad”, is from the State Department's website:

    Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.

    Emphasis added.

    Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo explains the supposed problem as the fact that Obama's mother was just shy of 19 at the time of his birth, which is less than five years after 14.

    I personally don't see anything that says the five years has to be entirely before the child's birth. And I have no idea what the–how to say it?–original intent was, though I doubt it was to de-citizenize children born to teenagers . But I can't find anything ruling either way.

    I realize you're out there calling me wrong. The best, I think, you can say is in some technical sense it's arguable or we wouldn't have all these–wow, how to say this one?–completely sensible people complaining about the legal birth certificate of an American born in the state of Hawaii. I'm sticking with my original.

    Obama's mother was a US citizen.

    That makes him a US citizen.

    Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify. Sorry to be so late in replying.

  • AustinRoth

    GS – I am certainly not arguing that he is not a citizen; I am NOT a birther. I absolutely believe he was born in Hawaii, and despite my little joke, in 1961 when Hawaii had been a US state for 2+ years, is therefore a 'natural born citizen' or any other moniker you want to use that leads to 'and is qualified by birth to be President of the United States', and that is the end of that story.

    But, you made a blanket statement, to whit:

    Obama's mother was a US citizen.

    That makes him a US citizen.

    I was simply pointing out, correctly, that your statement was indeed false, as there are circumstances, which you yourself researched and verified as I did, in which simple maternal linage of a US citizen does not infer automatic US citizenship to her offspring.

    What is wrong with saying the truth? I was simply setting the record straight, not trying to impinge your character. I will save that for other posts! ;)

  • mlhradio

    >>This issue is simply not going to go away until President Obama publicly releases his birth certificate, something he should have done over a year ago.

    Actually, No.

    Playing into the birther/teabagger conspiracy nutcases serves no useful purpose. And as long as they have control of the republican megaphone, that further marginalizes the republicans as well. Obama, Democrats, Moderates and intelligent conservatives have more to gain by letting the nutcases spew and fume with their meaningless arguments than to put the arguments to rest.

  • gotown

    Those who ask for his proof of birthplace will be disempowered if he was born in Hawaii and shows proof with a microfiche copy of the Longform Certificate of Birth. By ignoring the legitimate cries of the People
    Who Voted For Him- as even they are requesting that he put this matter to rest with proof- merely gives
    the “legitimizers'” more time to recruit new people and spread the word that the One in office is illegitimate.
    Besides there is a new Federal Case to prosecute and criminalize the persons involved in forgeing the
    Kenyan Birth Certificate should it be proven false. Andy Martin states:

    “A California attorney has now filed a purported KBC with a federal forum. The Department of Justice and FBI automatically have jurisdiction to investigate matters filed in federal court

    Someone forged a birth document concerning the President of the United States. He may have forged it, or someone else may have forged it. The American people have a right to a thorough and impartial
    investigation of this matter
    http://www.pr-inside.com/chicago-news-conferenc

  • votersofny

    It isn't a question about whether he was born here or not anymore. What is he hiding? He won't show ANY documents at all. It's as if he never existed. No one remembers him from school. He won't show transcripts or any school records. His senate records are available, they were 'lost.' Every other senator's records are there. We the people just want to know something about this guy and he won't show any documents at all. I'm sure most people have applied for jobs during their lives. You have to show originals of a lot of documents or you just don't get the job. Shouldn't the most powerful person on earth have to do the same, especially when there are so many people wanting to see them? Why is he spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers to keep them hidden? Why won't he just show them and get rid of all this controversy? Simple, curious questions that need to be answered.

  • GeorgeSorwell

    Austin Roth–

    I stand by what I said, for the reasons I stated.

    I don't really see why it's a hard sell, but I sure do recognize that train has pulled out of the station.

    Oh, man!!

  • AustinRoth

    GS – whatever. I fail to see why you need to defend and stand by a statement that is demonstratively false, that in fact you yourself cited an official source proving it false, and that is in the end not relevant to this discussion, as Obama was born in the US.

    But knock yourself out.

  • skibum1125

    Why would the political brain trust in Obama land want this to go away? I have no doubt personally they they would love to still see this when the 2010 midterms happen.
    There is a major group of voters out there who self identify as independents. These people dont care about this silliness and most probably arent aware of it. But for those voters who are aware all this does is bolster the idea that the Republican party is being increasingly controlled by the tin foil hat elvis is alive the government blew up the trade center crowd. Americans love a conspiracy but I dont think they want their country run by a party whose followers are consumed by one

  • nunadambiz

    I think everyone of you are too caught up in all the wrong things at this point, cause with my understanding and research reveals to me that you guys need to be figuring out where your going to get some live ammunition.

    We are on the brink of a bloody, but quick revolution here in America!!

    I see you have plenty of time to argue whose right and who is wrong, but my sincere recommendation is that you pull your head out of your,,,what's the word…yeah you just said it…Good Luck!!

    God must love stupid people. He made SO many.

  • patisok

    I am sure she went on a secret mission to destroy all copies of this so called b.c. I am worried about a nation who will not believe the Gov. of Hawii and will believe a crazy lady dentist and part time lawyer. Just blows my mind on how stupid we can be.

  • patisok

    They are sure scaring me. Do we really think the GOP has the answers. Do we go back to GW? The only folks who profited then were the top 5 percent. But looks like the 35% of Right Wing once again will destroy the country. They will get this president Kiledl and then put themselves back in the White House where folks like “”I left my heart in Argetina Sanford and” My parents bought the silence of my mistress” Ensign will give lectures on fidelity and how much God loves and forgives them. Dems doing the same thing of course are slimy immoral bastards but our hey our GOP God forgives us.we do no wrong…Gosh there are a lot of dumb Americans out there. God help us all if these tin hat folks have their way again.