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Appropriate Use of Force… Kinda
Two questions:
1- Why didn’t he just show his ID card?
2- What the heck was that police officer thinking?
It was beyond grotesque,” said UCLA graduate David Remesnitsky of Los Angeles, who witnessed the incident. “By the end they took him over the stairs, lifted him up and Tasered him on his rear end. It seemed like it was inappropriately placed. The Tasering was so unnecessary and they just kept doing it.”Campus police confirmed that Tabatabainejad was stunned “multiple” times.
By then, Remesnitsky said, a crowd of 50 or 60 had gathered and were shouting at the officers to stop and demanding their names and badge numbers.
Remesnitsky said officers told him to leave or he would be Tasered.
Police officers are trained in dealing with obnoxious people. Or at least, they should be trained in it. There is no excuse for police officers who use excessive force.
46 Responses to “Appropriate Use of Force… Kinda”
Better training, and perhaps even more importantly, better psychological screening, is needed for law enforcement officers. The profession attracts a number of people who are inclined toward aggression, and if they aren’t also psychologically ‘fit’ enough to manage their aggressive emotions then they are unfit to serve.
The student was obviously baiting the officers and they played right into it.
The multiple stuns is EXCESSIVE force. With one tasering he should have been subdued(handcuffed) and removed from the building. Seems like these officers could work as Bush/Sadist interrogators at Gitmo. Sounds like a group of future Young Bush Republicans to me.
I just read about this here: LINK
The video of the incident is very dark and hard to see anything. LINK
Question: What was the student doing that prompted the CSO to ask for his ID? What did he tell them and How did he say it, when they asked him to leave? Was he abusive first?
It does seem like the Police was over-the-top on this, but that could just be perception.
CS: The student was obviously baiting the officers and they played right into it.
I couldn’t really make that determination from the article/video. You could be right, but I can’t be sure myself.
I do agree with you about the officer training and mental stability. Something to keep them from getting overstressed. Maybe some monthly counseling while they are on patrol duties or rotate them through less stressful duties more often. Something like, one month on patrol duty then one month at the station.
Let’s not forget, it’s pretty close to midterms. I would also guess that the kid had no computer or his was on the fritz. (Library campus computers, which you have to sign up and wait for aren’t usually the first resort.) I’m just saying, if I was trying to finish a paper. I’d ask to be allowed to finish it even if I didn’t have my ID … and I could also see being stressed out enough to be nasty about it. One midterm (sophmore year) I didn’t sleep for 3 days.
Most of your answers are in your quote.
Well, I may have overstated it a little bit, but I drew that conclusion from:
1) That the student refused to show ID (my assumptions here are that the article was accurate in saying that it was general policy for the campus police to check everyone’s IDs at that time of the night, and that the student not only didn’t produce ID but- again an assumption on my part- it doesn’t sound like he gave any reasonable explanation such as saying that he had lost it, had forgotten to carry it or didn’t know about the policy)
2) That once they used excessive force on them, he shouted, “Here’s your Patriot Act, here’s your … abuse of power,” which seems to indicate to me that he wanted to provoke an incident in order to make a statement (again, I admit that I could be incorrectly assuming, but I’m just sayin’…if I were unjustly roughed up by cops, I don’t think that would be the first thing out of my mouth, but maybe that’s just me.
it is campus policy that id cards are requested for all library patrons after 11
it is not campus policy to taser students
these officers threatened to taze others who were requesting their badge numbers
they were using the taser as punishment for non compliance
their official record does not jibe with the video
the student just got the rest of his undergrad and graduate school payed for by us taxpayers in cali
and youtube again shows why it is the most important tool in all the new media
Most UC campuses have this ID policy. It’s completely normal.
Most patrons when unable to produce ID are let out.
So far, I have heard no dispute that the student was exitting the building when he was tasered.
A tasered student who is a little pissed, shouting about abuse of power and the Patriot Act does not, in any way, imply baiting. Not. one. Bit.
Even if it he were baiting, the response by the officers is still completely wrong.
There is at least one report that he was walking out when the officers were approaching him. This was baiting? If this is true, I haven’t seen or heard anything to refute it yet, then the officers should have watched him walk out and not approached him.
I agree that his not showing his ID and refusing to leave was not a smart thing to do. I agree that the quote was stupid. However, that quote came after they began tasing him. If he was walking out on his own, not only was he not baiting them but he was doing what he should have done right away to avoid an incident. Instead, the officers created the incident by not simply letting him continue on his way out and then proceeded to use what I hope everyone agrees was excessive force.
I agree that the response by the officers was completely wrong. But neither account (the one that MvdG linked to and the one that Rambie linked to) gives any explanation for why the student initially refused to show ID and refused to leave (janine does give a possible explanation, I admit: that the student was edgy from stress- but other than that, I see no reason why someone should react that way when asked to comply with a standard rule). I find that a bit curious, as to the student’s motivations. That does not in any way imply that I excuse the subsequent actions of the cops, not in the least.
RyanS, I have to disagree. The article I linked to does NOT answer my questions:
1: What was the student doing that prompted the CSO to ask for his ID?
Yes, he was using a library computer and according to Uncle Joe above, it’s policy to ask everyone for their ID. So I’ll rephrase my question: What was he doing on the computer? Working on homework or just surfing the web?
2: What did he tell the CSO and how did he say it , when they asked him to leave? Was he abusive first?
OK, he didn’t immediately leave when asked. Did he ask if he could finish what he was doing first, or did he tell the CSO to F-Off? What did he say that prompted the CSO to summon the police? Show me in the article where that one was answered.
3: Why didn’t the police just let him leave the library and let it go? The article stated he was leaving by the time they showed up. Was it something unanswered in Unanswered Question 2 that made them taze and arrest this student?
Janine, agreed, I have many memories of sleep deprivation and high-stress getting ready for midterms and finals myself.
CS: As I said, you could be right. I don’t want to make a determination based off the provided evidence.
Yes, of course. But what I was referring to as baiting was the part before he was walking out. Both accounts say that he initially refused to produce ID for the library guard and refused to leave. That seems like odd behavior to me: if one doesn’t have one’s ID for some reason, the rational thing to do would be to explain why. After the guard called in the campus cops, if the story is true that he had then decided on his own to leave without resistance, then they obviously should have left him alone (perhaps with a reminder that he needs to comply with the rule to use the university library at that hour). And again, even if he was still resisting, it would not have justified the tasering unless he was threatening in some way, and there doesn’t appear to be any evidence of that.
This was something I was also thinking of. If he was asked to leave and asked to have a minute to finish up in a good place and save what he was doing, that’s different than getting abusive.
The bottom line is there are a lot of unknowns and conflicting stories here. Could he have baited the officers into it? Sure, it’s possible. Did he “obviously” bait the officers into it? From what I’ve seen and read, nothing about this is obvious. If he simply asked to finish up what he was doing and save his work and then was walking out when the officers showed up, I’d say he obviously did not bait them into anything.
wait…we have to understand the motivations for the victim?
these campus cops were not trained properly
and they are lying about the situation in their official report…a report that does not jibe with the video
http://tinyurl.com/y3wksk
“Tabatabainejad encouraged library patrons to join his resistance,” police said. “The officers deemed it necessary to use the Taser.”
what resistance? passive resistance?
what encouragement? screams of pain?
this will end up on fox…and i can see the talking points now….what if this kid was a real terrorist…the cops are heroes
I hate to steer this to racial issues, which I think are used waaay too often, but I think it’s not insignificant that this guys name was Mostafa Tabatabainejad. If his face is as arab as his name then a bit of (I hope) unconsious racial profiling might have ensued. Add the “Patriot Act” reference and maybe the cops went into full Homeland Security mode.
Not justifying it, but trying to make sense of it.
It was a ‘random’ ID check, haven’t you ever been randomly ID’d? i.e. you don’t have to be doing anything.
He was on his way out the door when they stopped him, so I suppose he did’t have an ID or left it somewhere else, either way he was leaving.
Thirdly, it doesn’t matter what you say to a CSO or a police officer, unless you make threats. If you want to tell someone to eff off you can.
Again, this is all stuff in the articles you cited. Unless, they are not true.
But neither side explains the details of this. I remember a similar policy in a campus computer lab when I was in school. I was working on a project into a Sunday evening when the student only hours kicked in. I was approached and asked for an ID. I then realized that I left my ID in my dorm room. I said I didn’t have it on me but asked if I could finish up what I was doing, it should be less than 5 minutes. One could say I refused to produce an ID and refused to leave but it was much more innocent than that.
Fortunately, in my case, I was told that I could finish up. I did so and left within a few minutes and without incident.
Ryan S,
He wasn’t on his way out the door when he was initially asked for ID. Reread the accounts- he refused to produce ID for the library guard who normally does these checks, and then he guard went to get the campus cops. When they arrived, he was on his way out, and of course they should have let him leave- but it does alter the story to say as you have, that he was leaving when he was asked to show ID. That ignores that they initially did have cause to ask him to leave and he initially did refuse (I don’t see anywhere that this has been disputed, just that he later decided to leave before the excessive force was used)
I NEVER said he was on his way out the door when they CSOs asked for ID
I should have used the sentence previous.
It appeared that the student was tasered while he was handcuffed and, to me, this is clearly unnecessary and excessive force. I saw utter incompetence in diffusing the situation and, in fact, the acts of law enforcement exacerbated the problem by violating American civil liberties in the presence of the other students.
Hmm, I meant the Police by ‘they’ btw. And it would be nice to know what a few minutes was a half hour or 3 mins. makes a big difference. It could take me 10 mins to get my stuff together if I was using a backpack.
the kid is iranian
big and influential community here
Why didn’t he show ID? According to some accounts he didn’t have it. He was asked to leave and then he was walking out when the real incident happened. Is there any excuse for tazering the kid on the way out? I don’t think he was baiting anyone. He didn’t start yelling until the cops grabbed him as he was leaving, at which point he told them to let them go. He didn’t start screaming about the USAPATRIOT Act until he was tazered. If I was tazered for not having my ID in a library I would be saying something like that too. What country is this? Lastly, if you watch the end of the video, the police threatened to tazer one of the people that was asking for their badge number. Again, what country are we living in?
And for more of “which country do we live in,” the government is now telling private citizens what kind of flags they are allowed to fly on their own property. Amazing how much more like the totalitarian regimes we fought for the last 80 years we are becoming.
http://tinyurl.com/ybk93s
I think it was deserved.
First, I will assume that these were not police officers in the traditional sense, but peace officers empowered by the city to perform police functions on campus. I also will assume they can use force to protect students and property, and enforce University building policies.
So how should we scrutinize this event?
We are talking about a library, in America, on a University campus. These officers certainly have the right to stop and ask for identification, and refuse entry into University buildings if proper valid requirements are not met. They also, however, have an important and overriding fiduciary duty to the students. This means, it might reasonably be said, that the reversion to extreme force, such as regular or stun weapons, should only happen when the circumstances demand it. Extreme force should only be used, especially in a population of young college students, when the situation is such that extreme force is called for and supported by the community at large. We all obviously want students protected. We also, I assume, want officials charged with safety to act reasonable and professional.
Hindsight: These ‘police’ officers could probably have convinced the student, through police authoritative statements, to leave. Of course, with three officers present, they could just have well picked him up and removed him from the building.
Multiple tazer blasts: The assumption is the student must have forcefully or violently resisted the police’s actions, or acted in a way that necessitated and required multiple tazer blasts.
Unfortunately, the cell phone video shows overwhelming police force without reciprocal justification of action by the student. I certainly hope the justification was not that the student was yelling at police.
And as a side issue, we can assume there will be constitutional violation claims brought by the student against the University.
Unfortunately for the officers involved, they will probably lose their employment. The negative perception of this police conduct is enough for parents to demand change and retribution. Perhaps it is warranted, and perhaps it is not warranted. Rarely does our society wait for all the facts to be discovered. But such is life. In this new world of cell phone video, issues of police power will continue to be under heavy scrutiny.
Charles M
Brooklyn, NY
Link? I haven’t seen any account that gave any explanation at all for why he didn’t produce an ID. I admit that the lack of this information led me to jump to a conclusion, but I also think that others are jumping to the conclusion that he wasn’t trying to make a statement by refusing to comply. If you do have a source for your statement above, Mr. M, then I will change my opinion. And just to be sure I’m not misunderstood, either way the cops were completely wrong.
Ryan,
Therein lies my misinterpretation: I guess the “they” was ambiguous to me and I thought you were saying that he didn’t refuse at all but simply was leaving when he was first stopped. I agree with you about the circumstances, amount of time lapsed, his words and actions during that time, etc. I guess I’m cynical in taking it that any such circumstances that would prove his complete innocence would have been jumped on by the press. Perhaps they just haven’t been reported because they weren’t known.
Eric,
Are you serious or baiting us? LOL
Link? I haven’t seen any account that gave any explanation at all for why he didn’t produce an ID. I admit that the lack of this information led me to jump to a conclusion, but I also think that others are jumping to the conclusion that he wasn’t trying to make a statement by refusing to comply. If you do have a source for your statement above, Mr. M, then I will change my opinion. And just to be sure I’m not misunderstood, either way the cops were completely wrong.
From the Daily Bruin article it says, “At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check.” Perhaps I may be reading too much into the wording of that sentence. I take “unable” to mean that he tried to and couldn’t produce ID. If the word had been “unwilling” then I would think he was voluntarily not producing identification for some reason.
Can you say money? What happened was disgusting, but thatnks to the camera guy, this kid is getting paid$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I’m still confused why people are rationalizing tazering the student. Should they have kicked him out of the library? Sure. He didn’t have ID. But even under the circumstances as described by the campus police it is clear that tazering was totally unnecessary in this situation. Certainly them threatening to tazer other students who were in the area and not ignoring the commotion is even more egregious.
UCLA PD.
A couple UC campuses have their own PD. (Maybe all, I don’t know. UCLA is not the only one.)
OK, I’ll grant you that interpretation.
Who’s rationalizing though? There are two separate issues: one is whether the kid acted appropriately when asked for his ID (and I admit I rushed to judgement and what we really have is an inconclusive verdict on that due to lack of information), and the other issue is whether the police acted appropriately- other than Eric’s comment (which I took to possibly be a joke but I don’t know), I don’t think anyone has disagreed that the police actions were completely inappropriate. Saying that the kid may have initially been non-compliant doesn’t mean that anyone is rationalizing the cops’ actions.
Well said CS, I agree there are two issues here. The actions of the student which prompted the call to the UCLA PD and the actions of said PD once they got on the scene.
I think it’s pretty universal that the UCLA PD did go overboard in their enforcement. However, as more details to issue one come to light, that may change.
Once he was cuffed and on the ground he wasn’t escaping, and tazing him was not needed. Demanding that he stand (so that he could be accused of attacking them?) and tazing him for refusing, is (IMHO) criminal assault. The subsequent tazings should increase the damage award.
Those who threatened students with tazing because they asked for the LEO’s IDs should be fired.
Bunch of blue-uniformed thugs.
ok….i have discovered what was the cause of the incident…ucla has a meritorious service/taser award….
http://www.today.ucla.edu/people/applause-061107/
these guys were just looking for another nomination
think they will win?
WOW! what a bunch of low lives. its obvious they are uneducated people and were jeolous that this kid was at UCLA. What they did is complete abuse of power and they all deserve to be fired. further more, i boned the cops wife last week…she was nice! high five!
LINK
If true, I can’t wait until more details get out. Something seems foul about this incident.
To point out a few things people may not know about the computer commons where this took place: in order to use a computer, you must have a valid Bruin OnLine account, ie a @ucla.edu email address, for instance. These are given out to students and just recently, the BOL service was adopted across most of the vital services provided by ucla.edu.
In essence, if you are using one of the computers in the Covel Commons (where this took place) at such an hour, it is close to impossible for you not to be a student.
Most likely, the student didn’t bring or forget to bring his ID and when asked to produce it (everyone is expected to have their ID; if not, the authorities can legally escort you off campus), most likely told the CSO to piss off because he was obviously a student It is easy to prove you are a student without an ID if you are on a computer with internet access; it is much harder to prove this if you were loitering around campus (one of the original reasons for the ID requirement).
Also, for additional information, our CSOs are trained to call the police when dealing with a confrontational situation, such as fights. Most CSOs, however, are fairly easygoing, so for a CSO to call the cops means either a) student was extremely confrontational or b)personal offense, or maybe a little bit of both?
Either way, the police handled this very poorly, as authority figures with great power (because most people are not aware of what they say or do that will instantly give police the right to defend themselves), this is disappointing.
Nope no baiting.
First you can’t see whats going on in the video. There is nothing that can be seen that rises to the level which shows the cops were in anyway incorrect in there actions.
Second most people have a strange idea of what cops do and/or shoud do. More people get injured by hands on violece than by tasers, so tasers are not some “escalation” at all. Violence is violence, force is force, that grabbing and wrestling a guy is somehow better than using a taser is absurd.
In my opinion the student should have followed the orders of the police and he would not have been stunned. You also can here some students telling the officers to “F’OFF” … well that’s not the right thing to say to an officer either, even if they were wrong. The right way would have been to file a personal complaint against the officers.
The student was wrong in first place when he was asked to leave. So he now had to deal with the police. When they asked him for an ID, he just kept on walking … wrong judgement again.
I feel no sympathy for this student at all. I am sure there is a very simple explanation for all that, but the student chose to go the hard way and he played with the wrong people.
After the first stun he was asked repeatedly to get up (I lost count at 38), so the officers pulled him down the stairs. Home many friggin’ time should an officer ask somebody to get up?????. Guess if the student would have gotten up, the officers would not have had to pull him down the stairs.
And the last thing … I would have arrested more than just this one student, because it’s not right to call an officer to “F’OFF” (I believe I said that before).
A very unfortunate incident, but I am on the side of the police.
First of all mr. smart pants Charlie, stun guns are used to immobilize people. It actually shuts down your muscle control so that you may not even be able to struggle.So how would you expect someone to be able to stand shortly after beiing tasered? Im sure you wouldnt be on the side of the police if this was a white kid. By the way, this kid is going to be richer than you can even imagine. If your nice enough he may even employ you as his servant.
Thanks to our great police officer training program and people like Charlie, who condone this type of behavior, we tax payers will have to pay the cost.
Police in general are for the most part disgruntle people who didnt accomplish their objectives and now settle for being cops.
Mike having been tasered I can tell you that you regain control right after the shock stops. Of course this guy was not tasered he was stunned (no darts) and that gives you a shock but does not interfere with muscular control. And as an aside the venom with which you speak tells tales. There doesn’t seem to me to be any way you would take the side of the police no matter what, right or wrong. That being the case it sort of eliminates and possible benefit to any discussion at all. By the way I can’t think of anyone who “settled” for being a cop.
Eric,
I have one friend from high school who became a cop. It is a tradition in his family and as far as I can remember he has always wanted to follow in his fathers foot steps. He even used to drive a retired police car in high school. He is one of the rare cases as he admits himself. The majority of the police force here in LA picked being police as a second or even third alternative. If police officers where so inclined to be educated there would be more than a 5% college degree rate. By the way, I am on the side of righteousness and have no bias against police officers. They are necessary for protection against anarchy. All I wish for is that the law breaker ones be held accountable for their actions.