The Integration Debate in the Netherlands
Pieter Dorsman published a very interesting post about the Dutch elections over at Politics Central (Pajamas Media). Pieter carefully describes the tense situation in the Netherlands regarding immigration and integration. Let alone assimilation: which is virtually non-existent. In the Netherlands, there seems to be this strange misconception that those calling for assimilation automatically are racists. Which is, of course, factually inaccurate: a racist is one who believes that people with a different skin color are inferior. Those calling for assimilation are not racists, well perhaps some are but most are not: they do not believe that people from Africa, the Mideast, South Asia, East Asia, &c. are inferior: they believe that Dutch culture is superior.
Anyway, back to Pieter’s article: he explains that while the average Dutchman is greatly concerned about integration (of the lack thereof), Dutch politicians seem to be conveniently ignoring this hot button issue.
The example Pieter uses, to emphasize this ‘tense’ situation, is what Minister of Justice Donner said a while ago about the possibility of legislating Sharia: he – legally correctly – said that if there is a (far) majority that wants to legislate Sharia in the Netherlands, this can be done.
People reacted quite furiously to his words. And in my opinion rightfully so. He should have explained that this is one of the possible weaknesses in our system and that we should try to ensure that this worst-nightmare-scenario will never happen. Or, he should have added that this does not mean that the minority should simply accept it: that it should resists it, if necessary: armed resistance. Again, that is not what he did. As I interpreted his words, he implied that, would that happen, we should all just accept it.
In a society in which many people realize that quite a lot of Muslim immigrants would actually like us all to live by Sharia law, Donner should have chosen his words more carefully. He is a Minister. He should embrace, not just our legal system, but also our values. He did the first, but neglected to, sufficiently, do the second.
Pieter goes on to write that, perhaps, we should give our democracy teeth. To, in one way or another, make sure that before mentioned worst-nightmare-scenario will never become reality (something Donner should have done as well).
Lastly, Pieter finishes by trying to explain why it is that Dutch politicians do not spend a lot of time and attention to the integration problem:
The fact that the storm over Donner’s comments died down as quickly as it started either reflects their highly theoretical nature or the far reaching implications they have for defining the Dutch democracy of tomorrow. It is probably a combination of both, but I am tilting towards the latter.
When the times are relatively good, there usually is little appetite for politicians to wade into these unpredictable waters. It can turn against you, and in the Europe of today it could even kill you. No, it is not the now largely defunct political correctness that is covering up the debate over religion, culture and integration. It is political expediency. The price of which, as always, will have to be paid further down the road.
Let me repeat:
It is political expediency. The price of which, as always, will have to be paid further down the road
Our politicians are selling us out. They choose to ignore the main problem facing us and by doing so, they are letting the problem escalate and escalate, until everybody has had enough and all hell breaks loose.
What we need are more people like Ayaan. People who are willing to speak out. People who address the brutal treatment of women in many immigrants’ homes, people who address the sad reality of honor killings, people who address the problem of oppression: immigrant women are being oppressed by their own families. We have to make absolutely clear that women and men are considered equal in the Netherlands and that beating your wife up, forcing your daughter to marry with some farmer from some backwards area in Morocco who she never met, is not in line with our Constitution, with our way of life, with our values.
We need more people who are willing to point out the connection that exists between this treatment of (for instance) women and the Islam an sich. Muslims are more than welcome to come and live here, but they will have to assimilate. Going back to the “Islam of the Prophet” (as Ayaan calls it in her new book “My Freedom”) is unacceptable and in breach with just about everything we, born Dutchmen, believe in. People can be Muslim, but they cannot go back to the days of the Prophet, marrying 9 year old girls is not normal.
65.4 You can marry (and divorce) little girls who have not yet reached menstruation age.
Our prophet married Ayesha at age 6 to comply with this aya. However due to her tender age he had to restrict himself to thighing before she reached age of 9.
Thighing is defined by Islamic scholar Khomeini in “Tahrirolvasyleh” fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 as follows:
“Thighing is a means for an adult male to enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”
The following is from a committee of muslim ulema answering the question:
“the Prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, practiced “thighing” of Aisha – the mother of believers – may Allah be pleased with her.”
Killing your daughter because she falls in love with a Caucasian Dutchman is not acceptable either. Beating your wife up because she is not doing what you want her to do (or not well enough) is not acceptable either, no matter what Mohammed thought, said and did.
Circumcising your daughter is a horrible, inhuman crime, it is not relevant whether or not Mohammed thought it was acceptable.
Sunan Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
We need people who are willing to point out that the Islam is more (or less, depending on one’s point of view) than a mere religion. It is also a political system: one that contradicts our own system in just about every possible way.
We need people who are willing to point out that Muslims who beat up their wives, kill their daughters, &c. are not making rules up themselves. They are trying to copy Mohammed’s way of living.
4.34 When a wife misbehaves beat/scourge her.
Islamic way of beating or flogging wives is striking at their padded areas to avoid breaking any bones. Here is an example how considerate our prophet was when he beat his wives on their padded parts.
Muslim Book 004, Number 2127:
Ayesha narrated. “He struck me on the chest which caused me pain. “
We need people who are willing to point out that hatred towards Jews (infidels in general), isn’t anything new either, this also is based on the Koran, on Mohammed’s own words, heck, even on his orders:
Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Tabari VIII:38 “The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded.
8.67 It hath not been [granted] unto any prophet, that he should possess captives, until he had made a great slaughter [of the infidels] in the earth.
Muslim immigrants are more than welcome, but they will have to adapt to our way of life. They will have to embrace our values: even when they collide with the values of the Koran.
Cross posted at Liberty and Justice
64 Responses to “The Integration Debate in the Netherlands”
Oh, and I think the Bible Qur’an comparison is kind of silly. We all know that there can be peaceful and violent forms of Christianity, and anyone who has read up on Islamic history knows that there can be peaceful forms of that as well. All are possible, its just a question of how to encourage those possibilities which we want. I argue that fear and suppression are not the tools to create peace.
GJ, I just thought of something that perhaps we can agree on. Why don’t you stop using the term Islam and instead replace it with “Salafism”. While there is still a split within the Salafi movement as to the legitimacy of violence, you are atleast getting a lot closer to fighting a specific movement/idealogy instead of a religion.
What about the disgusting promotion the so-called “peaceful” Bible does of assaulting young girls of 3??
The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
Numbers 31:17-18 “Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
In the Torah (In the Book of Numbers in the Bible), after the conquest of Midian and Moab, and the great venereal plague, Moses (peace be on him) ordered that all the women “who have known a man” be killed but that “all the young girls, who have not known a man by lying with him” be kept alive for the Israelites.
Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the Babylonian Talmud:
“Rabbi Joseph said, ‘Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.’
Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father’s approval, by sexual intercourse.
Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: ‘A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.’ ”
Is the GOD of Israel a pedophile? Quick side Note:
Numbers 31:35-40 “[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man…….of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls].”
Even though GOD Almighty’s share of the 32 virgin girls is metaphoric, meaning that He didn’t come down and have sex with them, but if any wants to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile or womanizer for marrying (not forcing into sex) a young girl and marrying multiple women throughout his life, then he should not only call his Biblical Prophets as such, but also the GOD of Israel Himself!
Anyway continuing with the above Talmudic quotes, today, the Jewish law for marriage, sets the age of consent for females at 11. (Consent is only one way of marriage) I do not know if modern Jewish law still allows (in theory) betrothal by intercourse as it was practiced in ancient times.
Thirty years ago, the renowned sexologist R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwardes said in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression (_The Cradle of Erotica_, Julian Press, New York:1962) said, “Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty.”
I emailed a friend of mine, a former Jew who speaks Hebrew, and he further gave me more information regarding the Jewish view to marriage:
“I have just called up a seriously orthodox friend, a dealer in manuscripts with whom I do business, and a good fellow, to double check my response, and we are in perfect agreement. He runs a strictly orthodox and observant home and life, dresses in black, etc…I checked with him about it, as my own copy of the Code of Jewish Law is the shortened version, known as the “Kitzur Shulchan Aruch”. The full book is the “Shulchan Aruch”, which means “The Well-Set Table” (The Jews have a talent for clever book-titles).
This is the reference of brother Johnny Bravo’s Talmudic quotes.
A girl must be 12 years old for marriage, but a 3-year old may be betrothed with the father’s approval. As for the permissibility of marriage to a minor (katanah) by coition…*Fuggedaboudit!!* as they say in the Mafia. My friend assures me that *humanitarian treatment* is the final authority. If a man did that, that is, had intercourse with a minor for purposes of marriage,it would be considered a crime, even if the father approved. A girl that young would be considered unable to make a momentous decision like that. And even if she were older than 12, if it were done by force, as if she were a Moabite captive, they would be made to divorce once the circumstances were known.
Furthermore, and very importantly, the Jews are *required* to observe the “deen hammalchut”…the laws of the country in which they reside, before applying their own halacha, or laws. So the short answer is, yes, marriage by coition is considered legal, but not with a katanah, and never by force. Betrothal to a katanah is OK, but the bride must reach puberty before actual marriage and consummation. Also, according to my own exceedingly imperfect knowledge, nowhere in the Talmud is betrothal to a minor by intercourse *recommended*. If all this were permissible in the days of the Mishna, well, those days are gone.”
What about the killings(terrorism) in the so-called “peaceful” Bible??
1- The murders of the Bible’s Prophets:
In his list of nonsensical articles, Silas of the “Answering Islam” team, wrote a number of articles inventing lies against Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him while so hypocritically ignoring the same incidents (“murders” as he called them) that happened from the Bible’s own Prophets!
Let us look at few examples of the Biblical Prophets’ “murders”:
Killing of Innocent Children:
The following verse was sent to me by brother Jibril; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!”
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
Important Note: When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him tried to migrate from Mecca to the city of Al-Ta’if, the pagans there had their own children throw rocks on the Prophet until his face and body were swollen and bleeding. The Prophet peace be upon him prayed for the people of Al-Ta’if to be Guided to Islam. And ultimately they were Guided and they embraced Islam.
While Prophet Muhammad loved and forgave children for throwing stones at him, the Bible shows ZERO tolerance to even innocent name-calling from children; let alone having them throwing stones!!
Numbers 31:17-18
“Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
According to the historical elaborations about Numbers 31:17-18 Biblical Verses in the Jewish Talmud, the girls in “every girl who has never slept with a man” were AS YOUNG AS 3 YEARS OLD, and were forced into SEX! See the Talmudic and Biblical proofs and quotes here (Terrorism and Pedophilia against 3-year old slave girls in the Bible).
Exodus 13
14 “In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.”
While I fully understand GOD Almighty’s Wisdom in these verses, but using the team of clowns’ (Answering Islam) logic, this makes the Bible as a false book and a book of terror.
By the way, NOT A SINGLE NOBLE VERSE in the Noble Quran does it Command for Muslims to kill innocent children!
I openly challenge the team of weasels to produce one, JUST ONE, Noble Verse from the Noble Quran that allows killing of innocent children or people!
Allah Almighty Said regarding innocent souls in the Noble Quran:
“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)”
“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)”
“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)”
Allah Almighty also Commanded UNCOMPROMISED Justice:
“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye Swerve, and if ye Distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:135)”
“And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. (The Noble Quran, 2:193)”
“But if at the time of division other relatives, or orphans or poor, are present, feed them out of the (property), and speak to them words of kindness and justice. (The Noble Quran, 4:8)”
“If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for God. (The Noble Quran, 4:30)”
“God doth command you to render back your Trusts to those to whom they are due; And when ye judge between man and man, that ye judge with justice: Verily how excellent is the teaching which He giveth you! For God is He Who heareth and seeth all things. (The Noble Quran, 4:58)”
Regarding Ummatul Muslimeen(the Mother of the beliverrs) Sayidah Aisha(RA).
1- Introduction:
Introduction:
Aisha in Islam:
Let’s discuss the age of Aisha being 9 when she married our Prophet in Islam!
First of all, it is important to know:
Aisha’s parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet’s marriage was:
People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.
Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries. See the following examples: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7], etc…
It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into “women”, then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage.
That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many third world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today.
Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions!
So to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile for marrying a girl that was OFFERED TO HIM by her parents and was accepted by all of the people back then including the enemies of Islam, the pagans, is quite absurd.
The pedophilia in the bible was quite different, because girls were raped at 3-years of age by Moses and his men.
Also, in Exodus 21:7-11 as further elaborated on below, girls were sold off as slave girls by their own fathers to other men. So most certainly, no one is qualified to call the Prophet of Islam a pedophile!
**** Also, the age consent in the US and Europe only 100 years ago for girls’ marriage was as little as 10, and some popular men figures married little girls who were as young as their daughters.
I can PROVIDE WESTERN proofs of this!!!
Fathers can sell their daughters as slave girls to other men in the Bible:
Exodus 21:7-11
7. “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. “If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9. “If he designates her for his son [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10. “If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11. “If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
First of all, did the daughter have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son? No!
Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER’S AGE and younger than his son!! So he’s probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father’s age or even MUCH older) can marry her.
Also, the fact that there is no AGE LIMIT to how girls in the Bible were sold off and married off to other men, WITHOUT ANY CHOICE, who were much much older than them as also the case with the Biblical Prophets who married 100s of wives each clearly proves the hypocrisy of some Christians who attack Islam through Aisha’s very young age, while they clearly ignore the same fact in their own Bible. Here is a sample of the 100s of wives of the Biblical Prophets:
In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon’s son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
Even today, girls in many third-world countries are married off at the same or similar age. Also, it is believed by many Jews and Roman Catholics that Mary was 12 – 14 when she had Jesus. Also as I said, the Biblical Prophets who had 100s of wives each most probably married young girls as well.
Also, what about Aisha’s PARENTS (MOM AND DAD)? Didn’t they see it right and fit to marry their daughter at that age and at that time? Who are we to judge?
The fact that his own Biblical Prophets married 100s of wives each and fathers used to sell their daughters as slave girls to other men without any age limit makes it extremely possible and probable that several if not many of these wives were little girls between 9 to 13, while the Prophets were MUCH MUCH OLDER than them. If his own grandmother who exited THOUSANDS of years later still married at 12, then what makes it impossible for girls during Biblical times to have married way much older men than them when they were little ones?
Since there is no age limit for the girl to be sold by her own father as a slave girl to another man, WHO CAN HAVE SEX WITH HER, then I want to ask Mr. Sam Shamoun here:
Aren’t you a total hypocrite for denying that little girls were sold off and married off during biblical times at very young age to much much older men (as I proved in Exodus 21:9 above), while making fierce charges against Islam on Aisha’s age?
How do you respond to this?
How do I respond to this, Eddie James/
Stop already with your sexual fantasies that happened years ago.
Get the sleep out of you eyes and read what I said:
JUDAISM &CHRISTIANITY STOPPED THAT NONSENSE DECADES AGO.
ISLAM IS STILL AT IT!
Do you understand?
Do I need to spell it out for you?
Islam came to a standstill. Muslims still act as commanded by the Koran.
Judaïsm and Christianity MODERNIZED. *)
Did Jews or Christians flew planes into the twin towers? – No. Muslims did.
Did Jews or Christians put a Fatwa on Salmon Rushdie’s head? – No. Muslims did.
Did Jews or Christians murder Theo van Gogh? – No. Muslims did.
Did Jews or Christians get hysterical and kill several people over some CARTOONS? – No. Muslims did.
Did Jews and Christians blew up trains and kill hundreds of people in Londen and Madrid? – No. Muslims did.
Did Jews and Christians get barbaric and kill a nun when the Pope told the truth? – No. Muslims did.
STOP WITH THE HISTORY.
No-one cares.
We’re living HERE and NOW.
Islam is a xenophobic, homophobic, anti-semitic and female-oppressing religion/indoctrine and it needs to be stopped.
*) Please keep in mind that I DON’T believe. Not in God, Jaweh OR Allah.
And I like to keep it that way.
Eddie James: who the freak cares? Its not ‘normal’ in Judeo-Christian culture anymore, is it? But things like that are still, WIDELY, being practiced in Islamic countries.
Eddie James, I recommend you go to Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch and read some of the articles regarding the differences between Islam and Christianity. All of your objections have been answered by Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald many times over.
Also, again Eddie, descriptions of violence are not the same as prescriptions for violence. Many of the things you cite are things the Old Testament relates God ordering the Hebrews to do in the conquest of Canaan or other struggles concerning the ancient Hebrews. They are not unqualified and timeless orders to go out and engage in those acts as part of the normal practice of religion. The proof is in the pudding: the things you cite are not considered normal practice among Christians and Jews today. Jihad is a relatively normal practice in Islamic society. It is also a ubiquitous one: wherever you find Muslims, you also find extremists. Furthermore, those extremists are often in ascendance in Muslim societies precisely because they appear to have the weight of scriptural authority behind them. It is the moderates in Muslim societies who’s arguments appear weak or artificial or contrived to their coreligionists, not the extremists.
Oh, lets see what christianity says about apostasy??
Recently Christians have been running around excited about one incident in Afghanistan were a Muslim who converted to Christianity is about to be sentenced to death. One Christian website said:
“Islam is a religion which is very active in seeking to make converts. It MUST change and learn to grant freedom to Muslims to convert to another faith without penalty. In the twenty-first century Islam can no longer continue to be a one-way street, which people may enter but can never
leave.
“The kind of injustice which Abdul Rahman is suffering is one of the principal reasons for Barnabas Fund’s new campaign “The Right to Justice�. I urge Christians and all people of goodwill to sign our petition which calls for justice for Christian minorities [2]. Then please write to your MP, congressman or other elected representative about his case. Please pass this message on to as many people as you can. And please pray.�
Ah yes the typical Christian game of lets grant justice to all, and that we Christians are peace loving people.
First things first, the man who did convert to Christianity should not be killed, and it will be wrong and a SIN on those who do carry out the killing. They should leave the man alone and let him practice Christianity, which I’m sure he knows nothing about and was most likely lied to by a couple of missionaries who offered him money and food if he accepted Jesus. It is the man’s own loss, he will indeed suffer a mighty punishment in the hereafter so patience must be exercised, let Allah deal with kaffir in the after-life.
Anyway, let us now deal with the law of apostasy in Christianity, something Christians are very silent on. They often preach about freedom to convert, and the rights of minorities and all, but let us read their own Bible:
Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
So as you can see, the punishment of apostasy in Christianity is DEATH, and not only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put the death!!!! Note even whole cities are to be destroyed!!!!
So Christians are the last one to talk about the punishment of apostasy, since the punishment for apostasy according to the Bible is DEATH.
What will Christians now say? Will they come up with the typical lie they always say when put in a hole that ‘oh no we don’t have to follow the OT anymore’. That has become quite a famous line now, anyways, I would like the Christian to show me where this rule has been abrogated or told to not be followed. I have not seen it in the NT.
Secondly, note the ending of the verse, it says KEPP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS, which also include this command to kill apostates and those who try to convert you. Let us read what Jesus said in the NT:
Luke 10:
18. A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19. “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.
20. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ ”
21. “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
So as Jesus himself said, you know the commandments don’t you? Yes, you do, so as Jesus said follow them. And what do we read at the end of Deuteronomy 13:
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God
So it says keep the commandments, which included killing apostates and those who try to convert you, what did Jesus say? Keep the commandments, ALL OF THEM. Which includes this law of apostasy.
So Christians are the LAST to be talking about freedom to convert. This is just a typical missionary tactic, which is becoming very common now, this also shows how pathetic Christian missionaries really are, and it does show how pathetic some Christian people are also, since they always come preaching how bad Islam is and how Christianity grants freedom for all, obviously they talk from ignorance since most Christians have never even read their own Bible. I am not trying to be offensive in saying that, but it is true, Christians should start reading their own Bible, and read the filth found in it, when you tell a Christian that Judah had sex with his daughter in law and that Jesus comes from this lineage, they call you a liar and a pervert which shows how little they know about their own Bible.
Go read your own Bible Christians, stop preaching it to us when you don’t even know what it preaches, and I am sure the afghani who converted doesn’t even know half the filth contained in the Bible.
The real justice that must be done is to ban the Bible, which is true justice, get the Bible banned at once.
Regarding TERRORISM committed by the christians and jews today, these examples can be seen in modern times, even as we speak!!! They are being done by such TERRORIST states such as America and Israel(which was founded on the basis terror!!!) .
For the past times of christianity, please see
As for current TERRORIST acts comitted by jews and christians, see:
By jews(israelis):
By christians(americans): http://www.answering-christianity.com/iraqi_torture.htm
If you have the LEAST bit of heart and COMMAN sense, you would ADMIT that israel and america are DOING terrorism NOW against INNOCENT babies, men, children, women and the old. Surely, the USA and Israel are TERRORIST states.
Open your eyes!!
Israeli atrocities are at:
Eddie, you have provided no proof for your ascertions. Christianity starts with the New Testament for a start so all the stuff mentioned in the Old Testament is irrelevant except where as you mention Jesus says keep the commandments. That is the ten commandments, none of which mentions apostasy or killing.
Islam really has brought nothing new to the world and is a religion centered on violence, violence against its women, against those who disagree with it, and against those who are not muslim.
The accusations of yours against christianity are historical, we are discussing what is happening today and for point of further reference, the USA is not a christian country. Not only does it not recognise christian festivals such as christmas at an official level, you are more likely to see the president donning a yamulke and lighting a menorah than singing carols or attending church.
Regarding the earlier discussion on constitutions, the concept of a constitution is to prevent governments from playing with what are regarded as foundational principles of the society by those who initiate that society. However, if the society itself changes, then that society will likely change the constitution to suit its needs rather than those of the previous people or they may opt to throw the constitution out completely.
The example of muslims instituting sharia when they become the majority may not even require them to be the majority, all it requires is them having a sufficient presence to push it through. The Dutch like most western europeans seem to have lost interest in the concept of nationhood believing anyone can be dutch, french etc and that any cultural expression then becomes a legitimate one for that country. This means that while you are not united and don’t even seem to regard yourselves as belonging to a particular unique group, the muslims are able to form a common cause and work together to defeat you.
I read that the Turkish community is tight enough that it feels confident in saying that its 400,000 members will abstain from voting if forced to acknowledge the Turkish genocide against the Armenians in 1915 – as an aside, this was one of several genocides carried out against the christian Armenians by the muslim Turks resulting in some millions being killed.
These people do have an identity and are prepared to act as a group against Dutch values, it really is time that you Netherlanders started acting like you have something to lose, because you do.
PING:
TITLE: MORE ON SHARIA AND DEMOCRACY
BLOG NAME: Peaktalk
There was quite a bit of feedback and comment on my PJM Politics Central column. Michael van der Galien at The Moderate Voice expanded on the post with his point of a view as a resident Dutchman. Also, Stacy McMahon…