Ignoring Krauthammer or aiding Second Coming? Palin predicts Jewish “flocking” to Israel

Jill - A couple of comments. First, Palin is a "born again Christian" and as such needs an ingathering of all Jews in Israel for Armageddon to occur and thus bring the return of the Messiah. This is where you and I go to Hell for remaining Jews. People like Palin and Hagee really ernestly believe that crap.

Anyway, my main point is that making Aliyah is becoming more of a pain. For the past year, I have been seriously exploring the idea, making numerous trips back and forth to Israel. Starting in 1966 my sister made Aliyah and the rest of my relatives, except my wife and I, followed her example during the next 10 year. None of them had any trouble at all and they all 35 now live in the settlements.

When I applied this year, I ran into all sorts of problems. I was interrogated at Ben Gurion about my blog comments at TPM. Then my religous history was examined. I have a long unbroken srting of Jewish heritage but they wanted records dating back to to our families wanderings in Croatia and Hungary hundreds of years ago looking for some goy genes somewhere. They knew all about my Irgun grandfather but that did not seem to cut much ice.

I was raised Orthodox but have in the last 15 years I gravitated to a Conservative congregation. I got the distinct impression that I was a wrong kind of Jew - a non-Othodox Left wing peacenik. While I am sure I would be approved if I wanted to push it, I decided against it. Shas and the National Religious parties dominate the Ministry of Interior bureaucrats and can make people feel very uncomfortable.

If this trend continues, Aliyah numbers will continue to shrink in quantity and quality.

jdledell, it is so good to see you again. Thank you always for your insightful comments informed by your life.

I'd like to ask a question, please excuse my ignorance... the 'purity' issue you speak of, is this in some part an odd identification with past oppressors, who were also concerned about Jewish purity, deadly concerned?

dr.e

Thanks for reading & commenting and as dr. e says - good to see you. :)

Yeah, re: the born again nature of Palin's level of observance. I think this is why I really hold Walters accountable because in a serious interview of a politician, she should have pressed Palin to explain where this information came from - regardless of suspecting its religious basis. And yes, part of me wants Palin to say it outloud - that this is what she believes and it forms the basis for her foreign policy positions. Then at least she is being transparent and letting ALL Americans know that if elected, she would be letting her religion decide foreign policy. A part of me wants that on the record - I think as voters we deserve to know it and if she's so proud of her religion and its force in her life and how she would use it for governing this country, she owes it to voters to say so. Of course, since she doesn't know what she's going to do from moment to moment, even according to her own biographers (see here for example: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?st...), I guess she doesn't think of us as voters. Just book buyers.

I do remember you writing about those difficulties, ugh. And I also have been following other stories from their media about it. It's very very distressing to me, as a secular Jew, who has lived there, visited there, has distant relatives there. I don't know what the solution is - I guess in part it has to do with the Israelis electing governments that support less infiltration of the religious into all its governing. But then I'm someone who thought that Tzipi Livni should have brokered a deal with the Arab MPs to form a unity gov't rather than Netanyahu and I hate how unlikely such a deal was.

I agree w/your conclusion. But then - let me ask you this - I was reading about how some Christians believe that anti-Semitism in the Diaspora is necessary to help drive Jews to Israel so that that can bring about the Second Coming. What do you think about that??

Dr e - Israel used to be primarily secular. I've been going back and forth since 1956. However, the secular community has been shrinking from old age and small family size and emmigration. You would be amazed at how many of the best and brightest of the secular children go abroad for college and stay. The Othodox and Ultra-orthodox have been growing tremendously all along (average family size of 8) and this has been skewing the demographics for decades. That demographic shift was temporarily halted by the vast flow of Russian "Jews". but that effect is abating and we are getting back to tremedous growth of the religious Jew demographics.


For the truly religious Jew, there are extremely strict requirements for Halacha and their desire that this be the law of Israel, a Jewish nation. Thus we get open fights on such things as who can marry whom, what conversions are legal and recognized, the fights to close the parking lot and Intel on Shabatt etc etc etc. This is a low grade cultural/religious Civil war and given the demographic momentum, I suspect many seculars will find Israel unliveable within 30 years. There are towns in Israel that as a condition of continuing residence make Halacha observance mandatory. Even the IDF is not immune to these pressures. My own nephew( a captain, regular, in the Golani Brigade) is leaving the IDF after 17 years unable to put up with the attitude of the religious right who are joining the IDF in droves.

Like Saudia Arabia and sharia, I suspect the Halacha could become the law in Israel within my children's lifetime. The only possible derailment is the different interpretations of Halacha will tie the Israeli parliaiment in knots, unable to garner enough votes for ONE version. I really don't think any of this has to do with past oppressions but it has been part of the Jewish faith for centuries.

Jill - The question about Evangelical Christians doing things to drive Jews to Israel is a very interesting twist that I had not thought of before. I would have to think about it further before offering any conclusions but to date nothing like that comes to mind. Thanks, I always like something to ponder and research - retirement does have it's priveldges.

Ay, Jdledell, thank you. As usual, insightful first-person reportage with details that make it so clear. I learned. Thank you so much.

dr.e

"I learned."

What a wonderful thing to be able to say...

I wish I could say it's my original thought but it actually is in the Jeffrey Goldberg link in the post - http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives....

I thought it was very interesting - and it came from a Liberty University faculty member. Interesting, eh?

Jill- that Jeffery Goldberg link really is fascinating.

Dr. Ice (!) of Liberty U. has some interesting ideas but when he says: "Look at the people who are surrounding Obama. They're very anti-Semitic." who do you or anybody else think he's talking about?

Giant Slor - I wondered the same thing! I think he wants readers to think it's the people whom the press sometimes suggests are the people who supposedly have said what have been described as anti-Semitic comments. But I have to tell you, frankly - coming from someone at Liberty University? Here's how I read that: anyone on the left who doesn't agree with the Israeli gov't 100% is anti-Semite. I've been told that by people in my own congregation. It's a whole if you're not with us you're against leftover from Bush et al.

Frankly, I think it's a horrible mis-use of the word "anti-Semitic." And as a Jew who absolutely disagrees with the Israeli gov't on a pretty regular basis, I resent being told by other Jews (or anyone for that matter) that I'm an anti-Semite. I get why they've convinced themselves that I am, but I don't buy it and most people don't buy it.

So - I assume he is referring to anyone in the Obama admin. who does not kowtow to Bibi. I personally don't go as left as J Street for example. And I think their lure for younger Jews in particular but moderate and dovish American Jews in general does have value. But I do not agree with a lot of their statements.

Full disclosure - I'm on the board of the Cleveland Chapter of the American Jewish Committee - which is a diplomatically oriented group. I think they are a great organization and very much in tune w/how I prefer to process and proceed.

I suspect Dr. Ice was just trying to light a fire. ;)

"This is where you and I go to Hell for remaining Jews."

Not to get too far off topic, but many from the nation of Israel are supposed to get to heaven first. The gathering of the Jews in Israel and the rebuilding of the temple is just one (more literal) interpretation.

You know about the cemetary outside the Golden Gate at the Old City?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_(Jerus...)

http://jerusalempedia.com/The_Golden_Gate.html (has a few more photos)

Jill- what raises my hackles about Dr. Ice is how casually he throws around the 'anti-semetic' slur, like it's just blindingly obvious Obama can't go two feet without running into one of his self-selected Jew haters.

Maybe the nefarious Dr. Ice has a closet full of files documenting undeniable acts of anti-semitism, but I doubt it. Seriously, I'd love to get some level-headed and objective type to patiently explain what I'm not seeing about Obama because I don't think Ice is on solid ground. :)

Thank you Jill............it's nice to learn but also to have validated what one already thinks.

I wonder what your thoughts might be on what might be called Jewish "victim consciousness"-- that part of Jewish thinking, stemming from the Holocaust, but now seeming to take on a life of its own, and as a foundation for nearly everything. For the record here, this is not a trap, but an earnest attempt to understand better something that alludes my understanding, but seems to be pervasive with all things Jewish.

I wanted to thank too all those Jews/Israelis who risk destruction for not towing the Israeli or is it the Zionist line. There are consequences and some have paid dearly for standing up to Israel.

Perhaps fodder for a future article, but I am also curious to hear where it is that you part company with "J Street" participants. I confess I don't know enough, so let me just hold out my hat and hope one day you might add something to it. Thanks again.

Religion is so friggen stupid.

Hate to be the 400lb gorilla in the room, but....

ALL of Israel is Palestinian land. If they take more, what's the big deal. The UN kicked Palestinians out of their own land, and gave it to someone else. Sorry, if I lack much sympathy for Israel. They are great people, and I love them dearly, but they do not have the "right" to Palestinian land.

I'm going to take you at face value so I hope you'll treat my question w/the same respect:

What's your basis for saying all of Israel is Palestinian land?

The only way I can understand that assertion is if you are saying that you believe that all people indigent to or descending from the people whose lineal connections go back to roots in that geographic location- which you're calling Palestine-are ALL Palestinians - and that those folks could be of any religion, including Jewish, since Judaism came before Islam and Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity.

Is that what you're saying?

Spirasol - The notion of victim consciousness as applied to Jewish people really doesn't resonate much for me, but that could be generational - I'm 47 - I'm going to guess that you may be older than me? Regardless, to say that such thinking by Jews dates only to experiences in the Holocaust and then came to form the foundation "for nearly everything" seems a bit of an exaggeration and kind of inaccurate. There've been organized and independent persecutions of Jews for thousands of years, long before the Holocaust. So to the extent that this thinking exists at all, I'd suggest working to connect through the millenia, not just to an era that also persecuted gays, Catholics, gypsies and multiple millions of others who were not Jewish.

Again - saying that Jews who disagree w/the Israeli gov't's policies are risking destruction is a bit extreme. We risk ire from within. But then so does Olympia Snowe and Joseph Cao and so on. So - thanks but really, it's just being free thinkers and one's interpretation of what's best and right etc.

I find J Street too far to the left - they challenge Israel and Israelis and American Jews too easily without always giving the deference I believe is deserved to the fact that we are here on safe land - people living in Israel and Gaza and the West Bank are living that existence everyday. This is my same problem w/AIPAC - but in the other direction. And it's why I prefer AJC which I believe seeks to engage all stakeholders, all opinions, looking for the shared interests and going from there.

Thanks for reading and commenting - it's healthy.

I agree w/you re: Dr. Ice and I think that this has to do with how some factions want to frame Obama, frame the people in the White House and keep hysteria pitched at a certain level. They also want to set the foundation for fears they want to plant in the future - remember, he is at Liberty University.

I do believe that he believes that he sees it. I do not however find anything out of the mainstream of Jewish American beliefs or behavior in Axelrod or Emmanuel. I'm not as familiar with others but I just don't see it. Is it more to the left than before? Yup. But that's no surprise. So let's just get on with trying to move forward.

Yes, Jill.... That's pretty much what I'm saying (if I read your post correctly).

For the UN to go in (in 1948) and say that Palestine is now "Israel", is just as wrong as a bunch of Scotch-Irish Americans laying claim to Scotland or Wales in the UK. The Jews of Europe did not simply move back to their ancestral lands, they took over their ancestral lands with no regard to those living there (muslim arabs).

This isn't a Muslim versus Jew issue to me. All semitic peoples can live there. That's great. Jews and Mulsims peacefully coexisted in Palestine prior to 1948. The forceful institution of Israel was the single biggest mistake that the United Nations has made IMHO.

Hmm. Okay - so - let me ask you something.

There have been numerous studies that show that Israeli Arabs have no interest in living under Palestinian rule. They just want equal rights in their existence within what is called Israel. I had the chance to meet Israeli Arabs who talked about this and talked about the efforts of Israeli Arabs now working to try and get this to occur.

What do you think about an Israel that eliminates all barriers to full citizenship and worked toward the elimination of discrimination and disparate treatment of Israeli Arabs (just taking this group as one discrete group for the moment, as opposed to the populations in Gaza and the West Bank)?

Is that something you would think would address what you feel was a wrong committed by the UN? Or are you looking to completely undo the creation of Israel, re-designate the area officially as Palestine and then create a new country with a new government that would include all individuals who currently reside on land to...which borders?

Is it any surprise that Palin's entire global perspective is straight from the "Left Behind" series of novels?

Jill,

"There have been numerous studies that show that Israeli Arabs have no interest in living under Palestinian rule. They just want equal rights in their existence within what is called Israel."

I've been to Israel and to countless Muslim countries. In my experience, the political pulse was that the Israelis wanted no eqaul citizenship, and the Muslim Arabs wanted no place within Israel. That was well over ten years ago, however. So the reality could have changed, as you suggest.

If that truly is the political reality, then I would lay that decision at the feet of all parties directly involved. It's not my place (or America's place, for that matter) to dictate what should happen. If the Palestinians would be willing to accept equal citizenship within Israel, then I say go for it.

I'm not suggesting the "destruction" of Israel for an implementation of a formal Palestine. I was merely pointing out the injustice of the 1948 UN action. In a perfect world, we'd have a legitimate Israel and Palestine nations, with a neutral Jerusalem "District" similar to our District of Columbia, with all religions represented in the city government.

Thank you Jill for responding earnestly, it helps to try to understand.

When I use the term "victim consciousness" it does not necessarily
reflect the Jews I knew or grew up with, and when I read about Israel, I
hear about what a pluralistic society it is; that all opinions are in
all the newspapers such that actual Jewish opinion is quite diverse.
BUT, when I listen to the defensiveness that comes from Israel as
reported in American press, and American politicians, and AIPAC reps,
..............and so many other Jewish
journalists................Finkelstein the only name my aging memory can
muster, but there are many others --quickly labeled as "self hating
Jews" -- should they say anything against the status quo, and in some
cases efforts are made to destroy their careers. The need for defense
as it were in Israel and perhaps to protect itself from the world at
large seems to be the message. But as the Goldberg report tries to say,
the defensive reaction is over determined. Then I read about the modern
day efforts to divest non-Israelis from their homes, and it is done with
malice, cruelty, and without compensation.....or so I read, thus the
confusion.

My opinion aside, any statistic about about who dies, who is imprisoned,
who is losing land mass, who should be afraid of who, Israeli or
Palestinian, would seem to indicate the latter should be desperately
fearful of former. Anyone who disagrees is rapidly labeled "anti
semitic" and efforts are made to dispatch them to the hinterlands. Some
Jewish writers I read, and I imagine some Jews living in Israel feel
that Israels behavior toward their neighbor is similar to the way Jews
were once treated.

Risking "ire from within" I think depends to some extent on who you are:
Vanunu, Finkelstien, among others pay a high price, don't they?

Thank you for the moderate reference, AJC, American Jewish
_____________, I'll try to find it on the web, maybe there is more for
me to learn.........

Thank you for your response.

The more I see Palin's mouth yammering away, the more I hear Dick Cheney's voice coming out of it. She even has a peculiar facial structure much like that of a marionette puppet.

Growing up in an area rife with "fundamentalist christians", I could turn in any direction and spit on a Sarah Palin clone. The last thing these gals would do is defend a group of people whose main theme was "Jesus Christ isn't the messiah...we're waiting for the Real One". Seeing Palin defend the jews makes me want to urp in my own mouth.

This conflict over Israel is about oil. It wouldn't surprise me as to Apple Pie's comments about giving that strategic strip of land right on the perfect western-bound shipping edge of oil/gas country to americanized and American-sympathetic jews. Guess what else was coincidentally going on in that time frame of the 1940s? A huge upsurge in American consumption of petrolium products.

Of course most of Israel consists of "secular jews" [an oxymoronic term: you either follow the faith or you don't]. The deal never really was about faith issues in the first place. We just wanted to colonize it and many many American jews indeed will likely be flocking there as a matter of strategy, encouraged I'm sure. Imagine how hard it will be to side with the Palestian concerns if Israel really is the 51st State? We can't opt out of defending one of our protectorates, can we?

Haifa Pipeline. Google it.

1. Palin is appealing to the Religious Right now, in addition to "social conservatives" primarily and in the past, more vaguely. (This is quite explicit.)

2. The destruction of Israel, if it can't be sought promptly and rapidly, has been sought incrementally.

3. (Mainly conjectural -- it won't happen) Relocate the UN to Jerusalem and that way neither of the two parties currently there will be moved to fight the other party just because the other party claims it.

4. Creating two nations over the entire land in question, a "calico" dual nation with spotches of each other's territory scattered all over the place, to include settlements of Jews or Arabs, like the Cooch Behar enclave complex elsewhere in the world, would be ideal theoretically, but there, now? Never.

I guess, perhaps naively, what I would like to see is for Israel to accept the established borders, discontinue its occupation, give up all the subtle controls as well, release all the political prisoners, and stop slowly taking land illegally begotten as the spoils of war. Internally, for Israel to begin the process of equalizing its population, such that every non Jew not be a second class citizen. From what I read, the current Israeli administration is actively attempting to further disenfranchise and confiscate non Jewish housing. These are not necessarily my opinions, but ones expressed by Israeli journalists living in Israel, Palestine, and the USA.

Jill -- Fantastic article, and it has generated such a fascinating comment thread. So thanks!

My ability to pontificate upon the general Israel-Palestine conflict is not up to par, so I'll leave that to greater minds. However, I look at the Christian-Zionist movement among US Christians to be one of the more nefarious and, for lack of a better term, creepy ways in which our dominant religion tries to impose its mythology upon our nation's politics and policies, and it's exemplified perfectly by this sort of comment by Palin.

"Then at least she is being transparent and letting ALL Americans know that if elected, she would be letting her religion decide foreign policy. A part of me wants that on the record - I think as voters we deserve to know it and if she's so proud of her religion and its force in her life and how she would use it for governing this country, she owes it to voters to say so."

I find this comment exactly on point. Of course it's disconcerting whenever a politician lets religion dictate policy, but when we're talking about foriegn policy, I think it becomes more dangerous.

Yeah, actually - it is a surprise. People who enter public service, esp. with an interest in representing all 310 million of us, in a country that is firmly based on the laws made by humans and not by God, needs to project respect for that. To the extent that Palin does not project that or believe it or plan on promoting that, in light of the fact that she is an impulsive politician and could run for office again, Walters should have pressed her for why she is asserting what she asserted. THEN Palin can say, because I believe in Left Behind-oriented philosophies being applied, or whatever. Again - she picks on others for going through charades and not being as they seem - time for her to just put this out there too.

Thanks, roro80. I agree with you re: the creepiness factor in how "our dominant religion tries to impose its mythology upon our nation's politics and policies, and it's exemplified perfectly by this sort of comment by Palin." Huckabee runs into the same problem and interestingly, I think Romney did a good job steering clear of it. The fact that he governed MA demonstrates that he was able to convince others about his ability to keep religion personal for the most part (though I'm no scholar of his history at all - I could be wrong on that count).

It's not so hard to say "ok!" to all that, BUT...what do you expect from the current residents of Gaza and the West Bank? And the neighboring Arab countries?

When the United Nations becomes firmly established as the one true and sovereign world government, the Israeli/Palestinian cultural problem can be solved. Until then, the Palestinians have no right to Israeli homeland. Behaving themselves will be their best bet to achieving any political decision making opportunities.

Palin is just another ignorant political conservative that cannot decide what side of this conflict to be on. Her references to “god” is of course indicative of her internal struggle to understand the real world. People like this should never be near the nuclear button. They are unstable.

DLS re: #3 - Unifil is in East Jerusalem - UN compound there is quite large - I didn't get to go inside it but we were all around it in 8/08.

43: #4 - that's somewhat what they have now but I don't know that it's optimal at all.

I find the most hope in the economic initiatives the different populations in Israel and the West Bank have started. I'd like to see more in that dept. and I think Netanyahu and Arab counterparts are willing.

I've read and listened to and participated in a lot of conversations over 47 years related to Israel and Judaism and the Jewish people but I've never heard some of what you wrote. Can you help me understand how much is what you believe, how much is what you fear and how much is exaggeration?

AJC is American Jewish Committee.

If you want more good resources to follow that will not be ripe with that kind of chatter, let me know.

I really don't view things as you do but I'm coming from a different place - I don't read Finkelstein or other extremes - on either end. All they do is whip up people - no value in that.

My biggest questions come for the Arab countries and their extremely tepid to cool assistance and often seriously political agendas to protect their own turf rather than get dirtied up in the complexities of the situation. They also go to, as I indicated before, MKs who won't engage with the Arabs in the Knesset. There ARE opportunities - they must lead.

Hi Jefferson -

So, you wrote, "In my experience, the political pulse was that the Israelis wanted no eqaul citizenship, and the Muslim Arabs wanted no place within Israel. That was well over ten years ago, however. So the reality could have changed, as you suggest."

Well - I can't speak to the wanting or not wanting equal cit. but I was there most recently in 8/08 and spent some time in the Little Triangle and the efforts of engaging the Arab cities seemed very viable, and longterm as well.

Now - if you're speaking Muslim Arabs only, that is just one segment. There are many Christian Arabs inside Israel and the Green Line boundaries, and they are what - I think at least 10% or more in the West Bank? I'm not sure to be fair. But I do think the distinction is important.

I think you could get to agreement with many factions re: on a very objective basis, the UN screwed up. But the screw up goes way beyond and before 1948 in terms of occupation and governance in that region, wouldn't you agree?

So this is the slippery slope and why I like to refocus to the present and the future. Or else we really will feel the hopelessness descend permanently. I can't accept that - too many lives at stake.

Just one more little thing I want to bring up, possibly a bit off topic, in relation to something that I've seen from a couple of different places on this thread, and that I've found to be common to most discussions on the topic. I think there's too much taboo in discussing anti-Semitism in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I see it as something pretty inherent in the discussion, and while it would behoove us all to be extremely cautious about throwing the term around too loosely, I also think that the discussion can't go on if the reality of anti-Semitism in the US and the possible affects of it on our national views regarding this aspect of our foreign policy are off limits. I would say exactly the same thing goes for anti-Islam sentiment.

(note: I'm not implying that anti-Semitism is necessarily being expressed in any of the comments here, but just that the mere mention of the word seems to be roundly rejected as preposterous.)

roro80 - There are some different notions being swapped around even in this thread re: anti-Semitism. In one case, we're talking about Jews telling other Jews that they are anti-Semites because they don't go w/the Israeli gov't's policies 100% of the time. I've been the target of that in real-time before.

Then there's the idea that some theories hold that there must be enough anti-Semitism in the world in order to make all Jews believe that Israel is the only place they can find safety and then they'll all be there and another step toward the Second Coming will have been made (I just learned about that a day or two ago).

THEN there's the "we just don't like Jews anti-Semitism", like when I was campaigning and a neighbor asked me what my faith was, I told him, Jewish, and he said, there are too many Jews in our town already - I will not help you.

THEN :) there's the "even George Bush was in on the Jewish uberdomination of the entire universe and they are all evil and can't be trusted" anti-Semitism. This is the flavor that says Jews are in charge of everything everywhere and that our "Christian" country is under attack and threatened by Jews - who, you all know, make up a WHOPPING 3% at maximum of the U.S. population /sarcasm.

So - I don't know - taboo? I don't sense it - I see more rampant use of the notion than ever before.

I expect that Israel be recognized as a state and that a Palestinian
state be recognized. I expect the USA will continue to put its
protective weight behind Israel. I expect the rockets Hamas and other
groups fire to stop. I expect Israel to give back real estate acquired
in war. I expect internally the Zionist expansion has to except limits.

The current residents of Gaza are living in subhuman conditions, trapped
and confined, likely shell shocked and traumatized...........I don't
know what I would say to them that would make any sense to
them............but I don't know how much more the human soul can
endure...... I think kindness, supplies, infrastructure,
schools........??????

I don't understand Israeli fear (so there I expose myself as one who
does not have feeling for the way things really are there). Nonetheless
I don't understand how Israel armed with nuclear weapons and the best
weapons the USA can arm her with is "frightened" or "made to feel
insecure" by a country with no standing army, no navy, and barely a
police force. Palestinian weaponry though capable of exacting harm, is
crude or has been anyway with no accuracy.

My question back to you would be the million dollar negotiation
question: What kind of security arrangement would be accepted by
Israel? If all the neighboring countries promised to acknowledge and
not attack Israel-- would that be enough? If the Palestinians promised
to seek peace and stop avenging the perceived theft of their land--
would that be enough?
After tracking this for a few years it is hard to believe that they
haven't come across a combination of assurances that would please
Israel. What would be enough? One gets the sense that Israeli security
requirements are so high that perpetual occupation makes sense.

The US is finding out that sitting in two countries as an occupier is an
expensive proposition, and like the Vietnamese when we occupied there,
theirs is the higher moral position, they have something to fight
for....their freedom........but for the American public and the American
soldier........the moral decay is palatable. Can Israel go on fighting a
perpetual war without bringing something toxic down on themselves.

I believe the occupation has to stop and I mean not piecemeal, but to
give back all control of air/sea/correct borders, etc. I expect that
the only chance for peace in Israel-Palestine and in the middle east is
if these issues are resolved. I believe the principles of non duality
need to be considered. There is a link between the long suffering
plight of the Palestinians and middle eastern anger/hatred/rhetoric
toward Israel and Israeli fear of attack.

....and I apologise for going on and on..........it is a topic of
interest .........so to find one willing to talk about it .......is an
opportunity. Thank you if you read this far, and I will not expect an
answer though feel free if you have the time.

Sure what are middle of the road Jewish organizations that wield some power? Why do we hear only of Aipac and now J street?

Hey Jill -- Agreed! There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, as they say, and as many types of bigots as there are stars in the sky. One I'd be curious to hear your opinion on would be the first of the 4 types you mentioned -- do you think there are Jews whose political views on the subject are partially motivated by internalized anti-Semitism? Again, I'm not as well versed in the subject as I'd like to be, and I hope the question doesn't come off as offensive, but I've certainly found in my activism for women's rights and for gay rights and for racial equality that I'll often stumple upon people within these groups who seem to have really internalized the hatred that our society generally bestows upon marginalized groups. Just curious as to whether you think that might play a roll here.

"So - I don't know - taboo? I don't sense it - I see more rampant use of the notion than ever before."

Maybe I can explain better what I mean. When discussing racism of any sort, the mere mention of the word tends to shut down conversation, which I think is one of the many reasons that race relations in this country are so difficult to sort through. I'm sure, for example, that the fellow who wouldn't help you on your campaign doesn't consider himself to be anti-Semitic; heck, even Pat Buchanan doesn't consider himself to be anti-Semitic, despite his decades-long record of jaw-droppingly bigoted anti-Semitic comments. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I think that the mention of the word "anti-Semitic" seems to close down conversation on the topic or dismissed out of hand, instead of being one of the aspects considered and talked through. For example: what if the charges of anti-Semitism against Obama's aides are valid, and might we be able to tell? How might that affect policy, and what kind of foreign policies would we expect?

Again, the same should be asked anti-Islamic sentiment. I certainly think the idea of anti-Islam sentiment at the White House was ignored for far too long during the last administration.

Seriously - AJC is one of the most powerful and ubiquitous. It's also one of the ones you hear about the least but is more than 100 years old.

Here's a great recent article that is fairly accurate in describing the Jewish orgs' alphabet soup:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126279.html

One of the main differences between myself and supporters of AIPAC is that I want to make the world a place where Jews can feel comfortable and secure anywhere, where human rights for all exist. AIPAC focuses almost exclusively on the notion that no one will ever leave us alone and so we must have Israel and have it as a Jewish state.

Spirasol - I appreciate your candor. I hope you appreciate mine.

So - here are the things you wrote in your comment that standout for me:

I expect the rockets Hamas and other groups fire to stop.

The current residents of Gaza are living in subhuman conditions, trapped and confined, likely shell shocked and traumatized...........I don't know what I would say to them that would make any sense to
them............but I don't know how much more the human soul can endure...... I think kindness, supplies, infrastructure, schools........??????

Palestinian weaponry though capable of exacting harm, is crude or has been anyway with no accuracy.

If the Palestinians promised to seek peace and stop avenging the perceived theft of their land--
would that be enough? After tracking this for a few years it is hard to believe that they
haven't come across a combination of assurances that would please Israel.

Can Israel go on fighting a perpetual war without bringing something toxic down on themselves.

I believe the occupation has to stop and I mean not piecemeal, but to give back all control of air/sea/correct borders, etc. I expect that the only chance for peace in Israel-Palestine and in the middle east is if these issues are resolved.

There is a link between the long suffering plight of the Palestinians and middle eastern anger/hatred/rhetoric toward Israel and Israeli fear of attack.

You really only place one expectation on the Gaza residents (and don't mention the West Bank at all but that's okay - they definitely distinguish themselves in numerous ways so I'm going with what you've written for now): that they stop lobbing rockets.

That's it. You don't talk about them training, recruiting, electing and supporting leaders who will be partners in the efforts you say you want to see Israel pursue. There must be trustworthy partners - the Gaza leadership, Hamas, has not shown themselves as trustworthy, and they use reality as a foil for why. They don't treat their own minorities with any respect, women, of different religions, no one.

The occupied territories receiving billions in aid. Why do their conditions remain as destitute as they are? How can this be?

Hamas' charter and mission includes the destruction of Israel. They refuse to remove that as a goal. How can we expect one sovereign nation to trust a political party whose platform includes their extinction?

This is not alarmist rhetoric on my part. This is in Hamas' own words.

Now - if they are the elected leaders, so be it. But then shouldn't we too face that fact and make demands?

Or do you support allowing Hamas and those who support them, wherever they may be, to retain this plank in their platform and ... do what with that?

You say, would this be enough, would that be enough re: to make Israel feel secure?

How would you feel if you knew that your neighbor's raison d'etre for living was to see you die? Seriously.

I don't know what the solution is to that. But I do know that Israel is a country with more than 1 million Israeli Arabs and that those Arabs - Christian, Druze, Muslim - have repeatedly said that they do not want to live under Palestinian rule. Is it any wonder?

And I also go back to how the Arab nations fail the Palestinians anyday. Just try to get them to talk about this.

For more consideration (even tho I am NO fan of WND, I don't think I've ever linked to them!):

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_I...

First let thank you for a response. It is kind of you, particularly as you must see me as someone holding an opposing point of view. Though we are not losing respect, I feel though we are losing the communicative thread. Which is fair I guess if you dismiss the material I bring forth as unhelpful, dishonest, misguided --to the process. I also feel you only lightly touch on the issues I raise, before moving on.
_
"You really only place one expectation on the Gaza residents"_

Well, this stems from my thought, that the bottom line is that the rockets stop firing. It is the result we are interested in. Anything else suggests a larger agenda with nation shaping occuring according to Israeli notions of what a neighbor state should look like. How it gets done should not be so important. If Israelis want to control all manner of infrastucture, democratic results, who and what to train their people to do. This to me sounds like the voice of a parent unwilling to let their son/daughter make the inevitable mistakes toward growth/autonomy. From the opposing perspective (which we will likely never hear simply because the Palestinians hold so little power), what might a Palestinian say about Israel as a partner for peace, especially at this late stage (government by ultra right backed by increasingly religious overtones/continued theft of land/etc, etc.)? I don't like my own analogy for it shows an adolescent rebelling against an over controlling father. If that is the case than I would rather prefer a one state solution where Israel would be forced to deal with internal unrest and the competing needs of its populace with an acceptance of a multicultural state with a mandate to undo previously racist policies or, if that is too strong, policies that favor those of Jewish descent.
_
"and don't mention the West Bank at all- "_

I originally did say something about the West Bank but in the interest of brevity took it out, as I tend to blather. I don't know much about the West Bank except I hear it is a very rich track of land, Palestinians are told to move, their homes are bulldozed, and settlers move in. Protesters are sometimes mortally wounded. Netanyahu refuses to stop settlement building.

_"There must be trustworthy partners -the Gaza leadership, Hamas, has not shown themselves as trustworthy, and they use reality as a foil for why."_

The above is a perception, one that shifts depending on who we are talking to. Shifting realities I would agree is a key component of this struggle, but not one exclusive to Hamas. When we set aside all the rhetoric, we see Israel is expanding its land base.


_"They don't treat their own minorities with any respect, women, of different religions, no one."_

This too, feels a little over the top. Really, they respect NO ONE? Don't some Jews live among the Palestinians? It seems the whole western world wants to transform the middle east according to their image. America too, wanted to transform the savages...... nowadays, now that there is no going back, we see many books about the nobility (perhaps idealized) of the life style of the American Indian, and many Indians are returning to their old ways. And finally when a people for all I read is hell bent on creating a society where entry is based on blood descent, where anyone may have to take pledges of loyalty and suffer second class citizen status............where are the principles of respect for minorities there?

_"The occupied territories receiving billions in aid. Why do their conditions remain as destitute as they are? How can this be?" _

Reports indicate, Israel controls entry and departure into Gaza, and many British and American aid convoys are stifled at the borders. There is plenty written about this.

_Hamas' charter and mission includes the destruction of Israel. They refuse to remove that as a goal. _

It was my impression this had changed. I thought I read somewhere that Hamas has renounced this goal, and set as a condition of peace a return to 1967 borders?
_
"How would you feel if you knew that your neighbor's raison d'etre for living was to see you die? Seriously."_

I would feel pretty bad, but I would also have to take a look at the underlying causes for the hatred. Do they hate me for my skin color? Do they hate me for the color of my eyes? Do they hate me for my beliefs? Do they hate for my behavior? Do I play any role in the hatred directed at me? Am I just an innocent in life who is totally undeserving of this awful behavior (victim consciousness), or do I play a roll, what are the shadow sides of the behavior of my ancestors?

If you look at the underlying causes for the plight of the black man in the USA, it took a long time for the slave holders to begin to understand the humanity of these people.

_"I don't know what the solution is to that. But I do know that Israel is a country with more than 1 million Israeli Arabs and that those Arabs - Christian, Druze, Muslim - have repeatedly said that they do not want to live under Palestinian rule. Is it any wonder?"_

Conditons being what they are, with Palestine in near total destruction on the one hand and a repressive self serving government at war with Palestine, What would they say......are they free to say?

_And I also go back to how the Arab nations fail the Palestinians anyday.
_
There we may have some point of agreement but it is also a place where I am most ignorant.

Thank you again for listening and expressing with candor. It would appear when we pull back the veil there is much to disagree about, but I appreciate it nonetheless. :-)

I agree with you, Jill. At least in part. First we should, indeed, focus on the present and future.
Secondly, there have been many screw ups from the UN and prior to 1948. Imperialism has that effect, especially when the "benevolent" overseers enforce their own ideas about boundaries and geopolitics.

There are many ethnic and religious groups in that area, but the biggest contention comes between the Jews and Muslims or various backgrounds. If the Jews and Muslims can come to some sort of agreement along the lines you laid out, that would be truly amazing. I pray it will come to pass.

The biggest reason I even mention that Israel occupies Palestinian lands is to confront those individuals who assert that Jews are God's chosen people and that they are divinely destined for that land in fulfillment of God's promise. There are many here in America that put forth that arguement.

Roro,

What most Americans seem to forget is that anti-semitism applies to hatred of Arab peoples as well. They, too, are Semitic peoples. Far too many people make the mistake of applying it only to Jews.

So you are right. This is a very "semitic" argument and anti-semitism abounds on both sides.

Thank you for that - and I'd add, many Jews (and Muslims) are of PERSIAN descent. I once made a very embarrassing mistake about Arabic and Farsi because of not making that distinction re: Semitic and Persian. So - really, here in the U.S., these things get conflated all the time - and frankly the press isn't always the innocent one. It's really important to work to keep these things clear - it's not easy!

This thread really isn't about all this re: Israel, Gaza, Hamas etc. It's about Sarah Palin's oversimplification when asked policy questions related to the area and the stakeholders. Given just how complex your responses and mine have been, it really should be no surprise that many Americans feel that she is completely unprepared to be in a position of authority over the direction of the country's Middle East policies.

As for our areas of disagreement, you clearly have a position that does not include facts I believe are relevant. I'm not expressing any lack of empathy for the individuals who live in Gaza or the West Bank - to the contrary. I've written multiple times, here and elsewhere, that I was the volunteer in Israel most likely to go pull a Tianamen Square moment and stand in front of Israeli tanks going into Gaza (tho I was in Israel before Tianamen).

But all parties must be held accountable and I think you let the people of Gaza, and especially the ones who hold the money and the power, off way too easily and are not giving due understanding to the residents in Israel proper, which includes over 1 million Arabs - many Palestinians who have chosen to live inside Israel.

Regardless, if understanding and knowledge is gained here, that's an accomplishment. :)

I think the facts are "blowin' in the wind" and enters in the ears and escapes out the moves of folks who believe they are telling the truth. I other words......the truth is malleable.

Well - I don't and haven't really talked in terms of The Truth. People may pick and choose what they accept, reject, think exists, doesn't exist. Being open-minded has to do with the ability to open one's mind to the existence of realities that clash with or otherwise expand that which one has previously thought to be circumstances surrounding some situation. I think of it like a bug's eye with hundreds or thousands of facets. The more facets we use to view something, the more perspectives we can take into account or consider when trying to make sense of what is going on, defining the problems and seeking solutions. There's no value in me discounting your perspective, so I'm not. I'm only saying that there are more facets to the circumstances.

And Sarah Palin would be wise, if she wants to be the head of this major superpower, to research and understand more facets to the "flocking" of Jews.

For people really interested in understanding the different flavors of Jewish organizations in America, this report on CNN is worth reading and/or watching:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0911/20/...

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.5615897...

Hey Jill --
I'm not sure, but I think I may have crossed a line with my line of questioning, and if so, I want to apologize. It looked like you were willing to answer other people's slightly off-topic questions asked in good faith, and since the internalization of bigotry by members of oppressed groups is something that I encounter a lot in my own activism (and is something I certainly have to fight in myself at times), I was hoping you'd be willing to share if you've encountered it with regards to this topic. If I was out of line, again, I truly meant no offense.

Jill you are at least as persistent as I so in this regard I see you.
Believe it or not there was a time I thought Israel held all the
answers............ I like to think it took some doing for me to
incorporate the complicated opinion I now hold............I know too
that there is a wave that is building of others who hold similar
opinions to mine. More and more people are beginning to see Israel as
the major obstacle, not the only obstacle, but a major one. I see too
from your mammo post that there are facts and beliefs and you hold
strong ones and you fight for what you believe, that's good. The
opposition should be as loyal and dedicated. As for S. Palin, she's just
an excuse to talk, that's all.

Nope - I think I just lost track! Still digging out from what I pushed aside while campaigning, getting up to speed on Thanksgiving planning and getting back into some routine of blogging, while figuring out what topics I'm going to be blogging about less and less (ones that really would impact my constituents, so not likely to affect much here). And this is a long thread (I'm proud of that though!).

Ok - yes - I understand what you wrote here:

"I think that the mention of the word "anti-Semitic" seems to close down conversation on the topic or dismissed out of hand, instead of being one of the aspects considered and talked through. For example: what if the charges of anti-Semitism against Obama's aides are valid, and might we be able to tell? How might that affect policy, and what kind of foreign policies would we expect?"

The only thing I'd add is that 1) some people like to reinforce what they see as a difference between calling someone a racist and saying that something is racist. I think that's worth thinking about. To tell someone that you think they ARE anti-Semitic versus telling something that what they've just SAID is anti-Semitic (or what they've just done) also could be seen as two different things. It's a bit like being taught, as a parent, to never tell your child, "Bad boy!" but rather "you are not bad, but what you did was a bad thing."

Do you know what I mean?

Now, as far as being a conversation stopper, I think that that will be the case if people don't know what they're saying - and a lot of peopl DON'T know what they are saying and so they do in fact stop talking once 1) in their mind, someone is a racist or is anti-Semitic and 2) they go ahead and say that. But frankly, I've seen this and I've had this happen in conversations with people on the right or far right, more than with people on the left. But that's my experience.

I think if you watch the video I linked to above, you'll see a fascinating exchange between the J Street guy, whose org. is left of mainstream Judaism (though not necessarily out of the mainstream, unlike what AIPAC wants people to think - I definitely disagree w/AIPAC on that opinion) and the AJC exec dir. who very aptly represents pretty much exactly how I approach the dilemmas related to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Middle East etc.

Wow - I hate to admit this but it's surprising me that we could have such a long thread about such rich topics when all I was doing was pointing out how little real knowledge I believe Sarah Palin possesses! ;)

This is a great comment from you, thank you.

First, you wrote, "More and more people are beginning to see Israel as
the major obstacle, not the only obstacle, but a major one." Ehhh I don't know if I believe this. But in part, it's because I never DIDN'T see Israel as a major obstacle. I mean, all these parties are - they match each other well that way. They are, after all, ancestral brothers. :)

"The opposition should be as loyal and dedicated." You know, that is something that I agree with 1000% - it's why I work on and support women getting into political office, regardless of party or ideological background, so long as they show loyalty, dedication and integrity to listening, debating, working to resolve. Not just hearing their voice and seeing their name and their photo.

"As for S. Palin, she's just an excuse to talk, that's all." Now THAT has got to be nearly THE best comment in this entire thread! :)

Have a great Thanksgiving.