An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right

Situational Justice

Charlie Savage on the Obama administration’s plans to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four of Mohammed’s alleged accomplices in federal court in New York City — and to use the military tribunal system at Guantanamo to try five other high-profile detainees. This decision is part of a strategy Obama revealed in his National Archives speech last May:

Shortly after taking office, Mr. Obama also shut down the Bush administration’s military commissions. But in a speech at the National Archives in May, he said his administration was considering reviving some form of the panels, which have more flexible standards for handling evidence gathered in battlefield settings and through classified methods, to handle especially difficult prosecutions. He promised to make the commissions more fair with extra safeguards for defendants.

Still, the prospect of giving different detainees different kinds of trials, based on where government officials think they can win convictions, has led to criticism by some human rights and civil liberties advocates.

Glenn Greenwald calls this ” ‘the-state-always-wins’ system of ‘justice’ “:

So what we have here is not an announcement that all terrorism suspects are entitled to real trials in a real American court.  Instead, what we have is a multi-tiered justice system, where only certain individuals are entitled to real trials:  namely, those whom the Government is convinced ahead of time it can convict.  Others for whom conviction is less certain will be accorded lesser due process:  put in military commissions, to which most leading Democrats vehemently objected when created under Bush.  Presumably, others still — those who the Government believes cannot be convicted in either forum, will simply be held indefinitely with no charges, a power the administration recently announced it intends to preserve based on the same theories used by Bush/Cheney to claim that power.

A system of justice which accords you varying levels of due process based on the certainty that you’ll get just enough to be convicted isn’t a justice system at all.  It’s a rigged game of show trials. …

That fine legal mind, Andy McCarthy, reasons that there is no need for KSM to even have a defense attorney because — wait for it: He has no defense. He does not need a trial because he’s guilty (emphasis mine):

Let’s take stock of where we are at this point. KSM and his confederates wanted to plead guilty and have their martyrs’ execution last December, when they were being handled by military commission. As I said at the time, we could and should have accommodated them. The Obama administration could still accommodate them. After all, the president has not pulled the plug on all military commissions: Holder is going to announce at least one commission trial (for Nashiri, the Cole bomber) today.

Moreover, KSM has no defense. He was under American indictment for terrorism for years before there ever was a 9/11, and he can’t help himself but brag about the atrocities he and his fellow barbarians have carried out.

So: We are now going to have a trial that never had to happen for defendants who have no defense. And when defendants have no defense for their own actions, there is only one thing for their lawyers to do: put the government on trial in hopes of getting the jury (and the media) spun up over government errors, abuses and incompetence. That is what is going to happen in the trial of KSM et al. It will be a soapbox for al-Qaeda’s case against America. Since that will be their “defense,” the defendants will demand every bit of information they can get about interrogations, renditions, secret prisons, undercover operations targeting Muslims and mosques, etc., and — depending on what judge catches the case — they are likely to be given a lot of it.  … It will provide endless fodder for the transnational Left to press its case that actions taken in America’s defense are violations of international law that must be addressed by foreign courts.

Got that? Andy McCarthy — a former federal prosecutor — demonstrates his legal expertise: Pleading guilty and asking to be executed obviates the need for a trial. That’s how it works in our system, right? You plead guilty to murder; you forfeit the right to a trial, and go straight to the gurney to get your lethal injection. And look: KSM even confessed — after he was waterboarded 183 times in one month — to beheading Daniel Pearl, and to plotting to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, and to pretty much every other terrorist plot in the previous 10 years. Why would he lie about a thing like that? He confessed! He’s guilty! He did it! All of it! Kill him!

  • JeffersonDavis
    Kathy,

    Is it possible for you to put an application for a job at the Daily Kos. The name The Moderate Voice has apparently been lost on you.

    You sound exactly like ACLU Director Anthony D. Romero with nearly every post you write.
  • SteveK
    Kathy, Not sure why you're being stalked by a certain Democrat (sic) that has bought into (and is, tried to sell) every Fox News talking point and all the childish "Tea Bagger" hyperbole (ahem)... (sigh)... (btfsplk) [oops, pardon me] but I would like you to know that some of us Democrats do appreciate the timely articles that you post... Others don't appear to have taken the time to read the TMV Comment Policy.
  • Leonidas
    In all fairness JD the moderate voice headline says

    " An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right"

    Kathy just covers the "Left" part of that statement. There is no rule that she has to be a moderate, she most certainly is not and is entitled to speak her mind. As long as there is an overall balance of posting to contrast with such viewpoints from the "Right" side of that I have no problem. Not long ago I felt the balance was out of whack with moderates and right-wing posters being swamped under, but recently we are seeing a more reasonable balance for "an Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents".

    I may disagree with her far-left perspective, but I'll defend her right to express it either here or on her other blog, "Voices from Left-field"
  • tidbits
    Easy, JD. TMV doesn't mean every author is a "moderate"; it just means there is some level of balance among the authors.

    Yes, Ms. Kattenburg is consistently a modestl liberal. But there are others who are modest conservatives here as well. And, sometimes those who are pretty far right. Oddly, the only perspective not found at TMV is the far left. That's why I refer to TMV as a center-right site.

    Ms. Kattenburg's (she grinds her teeth whenever I call her that, I'm sure) perspective is almost the only one here that is not economically conservative, and we need that to offset the plethora of economic conservative writers who post here.

    Btw, watch your step. I am a card carrying member of the ACLU (29 years). Yes, I think the ACLU has shifted too far into a left wing organization in recent years, but they have been the protectors of freedom of speech, expression and equality since their inception. My hope, and my continued membership, is founded in the belief that they will return to their founding principles.

    Disagree with Ms. Kattenburg on substance if you will...God knows I do often...but her voice is necessary on a site that claims to be moderate.
  • Leonidas
    Personaly modest, perhaps, but not politically moderate. I have no problem with that, but I think Kathy is pretty clearly among the Progressive wing of Democratic voters given how she repeatedly slams democratic moderates in Congress, for being...well moderates. But the left-wing of the democratic perspective has the same right to be posted here as the moderate-wing of the democratic and republican viewpoint, the right-wing of the republican viewpoint, the libertarian viewpoint, etc. As long as its within a reasonable balance among them all, balanced the Moderate Voice will be fine.
  • kathykattenburg
    Thanks, JD. I consider that a compliment, since the ACLU is just about the only institution in our country that still respects and believes in the U.S. Constitution.

    And please. Stop calling yourself a Democrat. You're not worthy of the name.
  • kathykattenburg
    Thank you, Steve. It seems that great minds think alike.
  • JeffersonDavis
    You are right, tidbits..... Think I got carried away with that comment.
    For the record. I also get the ACLU newsletter, for 3 years now. We need an ACLU, as civil liberties must be guarded.... However, like you, 99% of their caseload is far-left crap, that does not gel with the original intent of the Constitution.

    I had a valid civil liberties issue two years ago... They refused to even comment on it. Their rep told me that unless I was a target group, I could not be considered for representation.
    Can you believe that? "A TARGET GROUP".....
    Wow.

    What a digression that was....

    Anyway....To Kathy....
    Sorry, sweety. Please forgive.
  • kathykattenburg
    Thank you, Leonidas. I appreciate your words more than you know.
  • kathykattenburg
    Ms. Kattenburg's (she grinds her teeth whenever I call her that, I'm sure)...

    Au contraire, Mr. Tidbits (whom I must call by that name because I forgot his real given name which I know he gave me). Those are the only times that I *stop* grinding my teeth. :-|
  • kathykattenburg
    Again, thank you, Leo. For the whole comment, but especially for calling me a Progressive, which is actually what I am, rather than what I am so often called (in general, not necessarily by you); namely, communist, socialist, hard left, blah blah blah.
  • JeffersonDavis
    To all here:

    The comment i made above was unfair and uncalled for.

    I truly regret making the comment. I was wrong.

    My deepest apologies to you, Kathy.
    No excuse.

    Your articles, although enfuriating at times, do make me fire the synapses a bit harder. If for no other reason, I appreciate your writing for that - but most likely for so much more.




    (PS. I am worthy to wear any name, including Democrat.)
  • tidbits
    Your first sentence, "Personaly modest, perhaps, but not politically moderate.", is contradicted by your second sentence, "I think Kathy is pretty clearly among the Progressive wing of Democratic voters."

    The progressive wing of the Democratic Party, like the conservative wing of the Republican Party is not immoderate. Ms. Kattenburg (just gotta call her that) is not by any stretch a far lefty. Example: she supports the current D health care reform; she does not attack it from the left as inadequate compared to single payer socialized medicine; she does not call for nationalization of the financial sector as the far left does or nationalization of key industries as the far left does. That is why I say the one voice unrepresented at TMV is the far left. Kathy is a liberal Democrat. That is within the mainstream, and we have elected officials to prove it like Bernie Sanders and Russ Feingold. She is not at the extreme left, though she is the most consistently liberal voice at TMV.

    Geez, it's a darn shame we all got off onto Kathy's politics. The article was pretty thought provoking & maybe we should be talking about that.



  • D. E.Rodriguez
    Wow! Is it something you said, Leonidas, that prompts me to agree with you? :)

    "The "like" you see on your very first comment is mine. Hopefully more will follow

  • tidbits
    What was this post about? Oh, yeah, manipulating justice to make sure the prosecution always wins. Well, I have no love of terrorists or their sympathizers, but in the long term the integrity of our system of justice is far more important than the disposition of a few individuals.

    This post exemplifies what I most despise about the "War on Terror", that we sacrifice what we should hold dear, freedom, privacy, justice, in the name of this "War". Said it before, and I'll say again now. When we sacrifice those principles that have been the hallmark of our greatness in order to "get" those who would do us harm, we may win the battle but we have ceded the war and the terrorists have won. They have caused us to so revile them that we have cast aside the core of our common principle in our quest to defeat an unquantifiable enemy.

    This is a time in our history that cries out for us to put our system of justice to the test, to put it on display for all to see, that all might know that justice matters more than retribution, and that rigging the system to assure successful prosecution is not what we believe in.

    g.c. (that's for Kathy)



  • kathykattenburg
    Consider it done. :-)
  • kathykattenburg
    Thank you, JD. All that other angry stuff I wrote above was posted before I saw your apology, which was about 30 seconds ago. :-)
  • kathykattenburg
    I like you. :-)
  • kathykattenburg
    g.c.!!!

    Gotta remember that <scribbling note to myself>.
  • tidbits
    JD -

    Wish I had your private email to say this off site, one on one.

    It takes more courage to admit you were wrong than to demand that you were right. You've earned some respect tonight.

    tidbits
  • AustinRoth
    the only perspective not found at TMV is the far left
    Michael Stickings is far left.
  • AustinRoth
    I may disagree with her far-left perspective, but I'll defend her right to express it either here or on her other blog

    I second that.
  • tidbits
    AR said, "Michael Stickings is far left."

    I confess that I have only read a half dozen or so of Michael's pieces, and do find him to be consistently quite liberal, but did not consider him far left. I will peruse the archives of his articles to further educate myself. If you can point me to articles in which he a) severely criticizes Obama from the left or b) advocates socialism in the form of industrial or financial nationalization or c) calls for something on the order of a workers' revolt against the "capitalist oligarchy "or some such really left wingy stuff, it would be helpful. I am open to changing my opinion in the face of substantial evidence.
  • AustinRoth
    Having had some time to reflect on the past few days, I think this thread is the breaking point for me.

    A few weeks ago, I made comments that in hindsight were incorrect and regrettable. So I apologized.

    JD today makes a comment that was incorrect, so he regrets it. And he apologizes.

    The other day Kathy calls my comments misogynist, not because of what i said, but because by her own words she assigned meanings that she knows I did not mean. But no apology.

    I spend too much time here as it is, and why should I stay when it is obvious how in the minority my opinion is here, and how out numbered I am, as no one would even come to my defense against kathy's viscous attack against me.

    Hell, I got my head bitten today off for having the temerity to call Joe out for using a known slur against the tea party protesters.

    It is time to leave. It has been a fun (at times) 4 years, but all things end. And my obsession with this site needs to end.

    Good luck to all.
  • I think the big problem with assigning "liberal" and "conservative" bias is that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have acquired so many different and conflicting meanings as to render them virtually useless as labels. We have a general idea of what is "liberal" and what is "conservative" on individual issues, but we seem to have diffculties when assigning those terms to a person's overall political perspective. And individuals seem to have very subjective views on the definitions for such political labels.

    There are some authors and commentors at TMV whose views don't strike me as very moderate at all. But for all I know, these individuals perhaps don't consider themselves to be moderates. Thus, I try to assess authors and commentors more on the basis of partisan bias and whether their arguments are logically consistent.





  • spirasol
    The banner below the title The Moderate Voice says "Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents. Is that not a call for ALL to express? When did you come to the conclusion that this was a home for you and your persuasion and not others? When did you come to think this was a club only for the Elephant clan?

    Your comment actually says more about you than Kathy, and the degree to which you think her opinion should be closed down. While were at it let's get in a jab at the ACLU. No trial for Kathy either, heh? Not even a show trial, heh? We have arranged for your disposal Kathy, go now, without crossing GO, banished to the hinterlands.......Maybe they will have your despicable lot.........

    And I further think this is Rove tactic, that if you can't argue with the message or the current of truth as it were, attack and discredit the messenger, hoping in effect to destroy the message.

    I think Kathy's comments are valid. she quotes very valid resources. I don't agree with everything, but a lot of what she chooses to comment on I fully concur with.
  • spirasol
    Jefferson,

    I want to acknowledge your apology and had I read further down I would not have had the need to post. I didn't though, I read your post, and it felt so out of line, I had to comment. Thanks and welcome back, I guess we can all climb up on the soap box from time to time.
  • spirasol
    ...........and so by making Kathy's post about her and her credentials to speak, we have managed to avoid talking at all about the issue Kathy was reporting on..........which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

    Greenwald also asked in his article, I'm paraphrasing "what would happen if Iran applied the same system of justice to the "innocent????" hikers?" What if they tortured the hikers, had a show trial, or no trial, or just had them executed out right. Would we not point to how unAmerican, how unfair, how these countries are inferior to our proud traditions.

    Listen people, I may be progressive about many issues, but about this I'm very conservative: FOLLOW THE LAW. DON'T MAKE UP LAWS FOR DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. DON'T SET UP DIFFERENT LEVELS OF JUSTICE.

    The whole world is watching.............and no they are not blindfolded and few of them will suffer us as fools. All of this is fodder for the so called terrorists, and we lose global respect by doing it.
  • Marsh
    Good luck AR - I'll miss your perspective.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    Back to the issue at hand.

    This morning's NYT:

    Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. took a bold and principled step on Friday toward repairing the damage wrought by former President George W. Bush with his decision to discard the nation’s well-established systems of civilian and military justice in the treatment of detainees captured in antiterrorist operations.

    From that entirely unnecessary policy (the United States had the tools to detain, charge and bring terrorists to justice) flowed a terrible legacy of torture and open-ended incarceration. It left President Obama with yet another mess to clean up on an urgent basis.
    .
    .
    .

    Republican lawmakers and the self-promoting independent senator from Connecticut, Joseph Lieberman, pounced on the chance to appear on television
    .
    .
    Still, this much is clear: the Obama administration has yet to completely figure out how to rectify the disgraceful Bush detention policies, but it is getting there.

    .
    .

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/opinion/14sat...
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    AR:

    All our best to you and your daughter

    Dorian
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    P.S.

    AR:

    I am often in the minority on some issues, but I keep plugging away.

    You may want to reconsider

    Dorian
  • DLS
    Kathy probably finds the ACLU to be "moderate," "centrist," or "center-right."

    No problem.

    She's an open book. The title: "1968."

    She's more consistent than Mikey. (Michael Stickings), who, in Canada, has often imitated the most overt, blatant, worst among play-pen and worse extreme left rigid PC conformists here in the States. (He showed restraint, moderation, even, and realism in taking the sane, "anti" side about Polanski.)
  • DLS
    About the trial itself:

    1. "This is a time in our history that cries out for us to put our system of justice to the test, to put it on display for all to see"

    No. This trial, and selecting New York City for it, is the most cheap PR stunt, appealing to the basest of emotions and lowest, most shallow intellectual level, possible. Immediately it compromises getting a fair trial; a change of venue is to be immediately expected, obviously. This is a feel-good stunt; to whom it was aimed is the real question. Are there really that many in this country who would buy this stunt? Is it to appeal to the most silly protestors in Europe about earlier Bush administration behavior, and is this a tardy, silly, stupid "image repair statement" appealing to such people (rather than normal people in this country, who should be the ones that count)? The Obama administration seem once again to be play-pen, fumbling elitists, out of touch with reality and the US mainstream. Why this, and why now?

    As I began to note on another thread, in spotting something Rudi posted on that other thread, there is a kernel of validity here, that has escaped too many people's notice or attention, it seems, and it should be noted here:

    The crime happened in US territory, and it was before the war. The analogies to properly apply to this, which establish the precedent for this trial, are the earlier World Trade Center bombing, and the bombing of the federal government facility in Oklahoma City. This earlier large bombing was by domestic terrorists who were US citizens; the only thing different for the 2001 World Trade Center terrorism is that the perpetrators were foreigners. The civilian laws of the USA still apply in this case, it is reasonable to maintain. It's that kernel of truth that may be provided in defense of what the Obama administration has decided to do. The rest of it, the public relations stunt, the appeals to emotion (complete with seeking the death penalty, which will render many liberal opponents of execution hypocritically silent), the sick insinuation that this is some corrupted-Carteresque propriety ploy and atonement and remediation for Bush administration unpopularity among the clucking and worse critics -- all that is garbage, to which the response nation-wide was prompt and predictable.
  • DLS
    2. Don't be surprised (in addition to the many things the lawyers can do, including bringing to light not only the torturing of subjects and attempts to exclude all kinds of evidence, but to expose classified information that includes revelations of more of our intelligence sources and methods) if the suspects (the terrorists behind "9-11") plead guilty and make some long-winded statements, to end things early.

    Anything and everything could possibly happen in a PR-stunt show trial like this.

    (Show trial? Yes, as well as an obvious PR stunt. That it might be anti-Bush lefty-salve is debasing. That it is a show trial is not a surprise. New York? Stupid as that is, not a surprise. Even in a case like this, the Ninth Circus Court could go off-script if a trial were held somewhere more appropriate, far away fro New York, such as in Los Angeles or San Francisco, instead. That it is a show trial is no surprise, either, given that the Obama administration has already sought to engage in suppression of dissent and control of the media, as well as seeking Communist-style "denunciation" of dissent by individuals, too.)
  • JSpencer
    AR, sorry to see talk about leaving, but you need to do what is going to be best for you. This site is more civilized than the political forums I used to spend time in, which is to say the ad hominem stuff seems to be kept at a minimum, but I suppose that's partly subjective and also depends on the degree to which you've spent time in other forums - some of which can be downright unpleasant. I haven't agreed with all the views you've expressed but I do share some of them, and I always read your posts when I see them. Maybe you just need a break for awhile, it's easy to get caught up with the give and take of these forums and begin to imagine that participation is critical, when it should be thought of more as informative and fun. In any case, best of luck to you and I hope to see you here again. ~ Joe
  • Leonidas
    Thank you, Steve. It seems that great minds think alike.
    .

    But so often do idiots, and idiots disagree with great minds sometimes, and other times agree with them, and great minds can often disagree with each other. What I'm saying it that agreement or disagreement with a person is not a measurement of who has a great mind and who is an idiot. I've always thought that old proverb to be kinda silly.
  • Leonidas
    as no one would even come to my defense against kathy's viscous attack against me.


    Not so. I offered Kathy the benifit of the doubt on her words there for the time being, but I did state she should clarify as the words she posted were unclear and could be seen as a statement that I felt was beneath her. So I did defend you there, just as I defended Kathy here and the time she was called "unnatural" by another poster.
  • dduck12
    Excuse me, I believe I have been on your side several times. Sometimes these things are so noisy that similar views and rhetorical pyrotechnics drown out variations of computability. Don't go.
  • kathykattenburg
    Ahhh, fudge. This makes me feel sad. I hope you come back, AR.
  • tidbits
    Well, AR, I think your comment may be a bit of an over reaction. I remember joking with you once that I wished you would post something controversial because I was tired of agreeing with you. I also recall when an interloper came onto the site & accused you of all manner of disingenuous inhumanity. Don't recall that person's screen name, but I do recall damn near everyone (right, left and center) here coming to your defense, vouching for your character & standing beside you & backing you up.

    You can leave if you choose, but don't blame, please...we don't deserve that. I believe your daughter's name is Vicki (if I recall correctly...and if I got it wrong, please forgive me). Please know we all support her, and you, and your family.

    Best,

    tidbits
  • AustinRoth
    My final sets of comments before I go away, at least for a long while..

    To JD, I am truly disappointed in your apology, especially the almost groveling way you wrote it.

    You expressed an opinion. You did not call Kathy names. You did not say she should be banned, or that her posts should not be allowed at TMV. Yet you capitulated to the call of the mob rather than stand by a rather innocuous statement. If anything, the people here who heaped such scorn on you owe you an apology.

    That is part of the atmosphere here that makes me feel I have to leave - criticism of left positions is voraciously attacked and apologies demanded, but think about what has been said to you about your religious beliefs, your positions on abortion, and your positions on gay marriage, with no apologies forthcoming for over-the-top statements.

    BTW - TMV is really is not analogous to Kos. It IS becoming analogous to Balloon Juice though, IMHO
  • AustinRoth
    tidbits -

    I did not say I was never defended against unfair attacks, especially in the past. But the progression of the tone on this board over the past year, and then the past few days in particular with the issues I had with Kathy were the final straw. I truly felt I was being viciously and unfairly maligned (I still do), and got a bit of tepid support against her attack, at best.

    That left me with a very bad taste, and as I said, after reflection, a realization that I spend too much time here, care too much what people here think of me, and I need a break.

    As I said, I need to stop my obsession with this board (really doc, I can quit after just one last post!)

    I most likely will be back. I have been here almost 6 years (not 4 like I mis-posted), and took a 4 month or so break a few years ago. I will probably do about the same this time.
  • AustinRoth
    Final post.

    Kathy -

    This will I am sure come off as a "I am blaming you for me leaving" post, but trust me, it is not that at all. The problems we had with my viagra post and your reactions to me are just the proximate cause event of allowing me to realize what I suspected - I need to take a long break from this board (showing my age there using the term 'board' rather than 'blog').

    However, I also think you do not realize just how deeply you offended me and frankly hurt me over this whole issue.

    From initially thinking I would post something hateful to women and calling me out for posting a misogynist statement (an exceptionally loaded word, and despite your being correct in not directly calling me a misogynist, it certainly was implied, IMO), to your complete unwillingness to address me fairly when I made it clear I had no idea why you thought that, to the fact that finally once I made it abundantly clear what my intent had been and always was you still refused to do the decent thing - provide a simple, sincere apology for mis-understanding my post and using hateful words to describe it, and for treating me so shabbily along the way.

    I truly thought you were a bigger person than that, and despite our obvious political differences, I thought you thought better of me than that. But obviously not. It has permanently changed the way I think of you as a person.

    So be it. We don't have to respect each other, or like each other. That is what I was getting at in my previous post to tidbits about caring too much what people think of me.

    Take care.
  • kathykattenburg
    Austin,

    I am sorry that I hurt you. I really am. I can't honestly say that my original comment to you that started all this was not meant to provoke or even offend; however, I can say, with complete sincerity, that I did not think it would offend you as deeply as it has. And I never thought it would actually hurt you. I was angry, and I meant to make you angry, but if I had known that it would cause you this level of pain and offense, that you are leaving TMV, I would not have said it -- or, that is, I would have made the same point in a different way.

    I don't expect that you will find the above convincing or that it will make you feel any better, but I am telling you what I feel to be true.

    One reason why it surprises me that your reaction to my comment was as strong as it was (again, not that I'm surprised you reacted strongly; but this is an extremely strong reaction that I did not expect) is because you have said things here -- on many occasions -- that objectively were quite offensive and that did offend me and also did hurt me, because they were very personal. Most of the examples I could give I have never told you about or mentioned here or responded to here in any way. I tell myself that you are a very hot-tempered person, and if truth be told I am too, or I can be. My way is to just stop addressing your comments for as long as it takes for me to feel okay again. The time you called me -- in the heat of anger -- a bitch (sorry, Dr E!) -- that's how I handled it. I stopped talking to you. Then you made the first move to make amends, and it was over. That's my way. But because you have not been exactly a shrinking violet about expressing your strong disagreement with me over these months, I did not imagine that you would take offense to the point of leaving. And I do understand that I am not the reason for that; just the trigger.

    Fair enough.

    I just hope you will take the time to read this and, although you are still going to feel what you feel (someone else's words can't change that completely), perhaps, hopefully, you will believe that I mean what I write here.

    Best to you.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Perhaps you're right, Mr. Roth. Maybe I did slouch a bit too far down in the chair with my tail between my legs. But I am a diplomat at heart. Although extremely difficult, politics can not be taken personally. I let that happen when I let Kathy get under my skin like that. I do realize that you can do more to spread information when you are approachable than you can when you set others off.

    I hope you decide to come back soon. Can't speak for the rest, but I'll miss ya. You're extremely well-thought and have a unique way of expressing your ideals. If you stay away - what a true waist that would be.
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