The Ultimate Sacrifice

What would you do?

I lost a friend that way in Viet Nam, they didn't even put his name on the wall.

Sometimes priorities are a bit screwed.

Oh my god, Frith, that's awful. That's horrendous. I'm sorry for the pain you must feel.

"That’s what “support the troops” really means, in essence. It means “support the heroes — the ones who make us want to salute the flag; the ones politicians can use to preen and posture, shed a few tears at the lectern, and count on to keep the money flowing into the campaign coffers.”

That may be what it means to some, but that is not what it should mean. The troops include all the troops. It includes more than generals "worrying" about suicide rates, but being pro-active to identify risks and implement a strategy of prevention. It includes adequate recognition and treatment of PTSD after troops return home and are no longer on active duty. The figures in this article include only active duty troops and do not include those who become the lost souls and suicides after they are out.

Honoring the heroes has its place. So does caring for all who serve or have served. And, damn the political leaders who send them to die or be forever diminished in their wars of choice.

Bring troops home from Afghanistan, for one. The extended, repeated tours of duty are a large part of what is causing this.

Increase funding for treating depression and PTSD in returning veterans -- for all veterans for that matter. This is not just the most recent wars that have a problem with suicidal veterans. There are Gulf War I veterans still struggling with this. Also Vietnam vets.

Increase public awareness. Take actions to eliminate or at least reduce the stigma of mental illness. Many of these vets don't seek help because there is such a stigma to admitting that they suffer from combat-related depression, from suicidal ideation.

The figures in this article include only active duty troops and do not include those who become the lost souls and suicides after they are out.

Excellent point, tidbits.

I know this is going to sound so cold-hearted to you Kathy, but war IS hell. There has always been an issue of self-wounding and suicide to avoid combat throughout history.

You do not believe in our presence in the Middle East, and so see any death as another justification to leave. Those who DO support our efforts, though, understand that both the deaths in battle and the self-inflicted causalities do not make the reasons for being there any less so, and are no reason to leave.

To be frank, I have much less sympathy, very little in fact, for those who make a commitment to fight for their country's armed forces, and then when it doesn't meet their expectations, take matters in to their own hands.

I do not see that as 'sacrifice'; I see it as cowardice. There is no equivalence to a combat injury or a combat death in my mind.

They have dishonored themselves, the military, their country, their family, and have weakened the fighting strength of their fellow soldiers.

I can feel bad for them as an individual for their weakness of character, but not as a soldier.

"And, damn the political leaders who send them to die or be forever diminished in their wars of choice." ~ tidbits

Amen.

Kathy, I encourage you to look up how many Vietnam vets have taken their own lives...... I believe that they have never stopped taking their own lives............the number is likely astounding, sadly....

"I can feel bad for them as an individual for their weakness of character, but not as a soldier."

Wow

AR -

Reference to suicide as cowardice and/or weakness of character does sound a bit cold hearted. Depression, sometimes resulting in suicide under stress in young adults, is fairly common. Three important points to ponder: 1. depression is most likely caused by chemical changes in the brain, not issues of courage or character, 2. Those suffering from depression cannot simply pull themselves out of it by will, and 3. depression is treatable.

For further info please see Health Savvy at http://www.virtua.org/page.cfm?id=healthsavvy_d... . One of many sites on this issue.

Sorry, Austin, I can't agree with you here, not after knowing of those afflicted with "weakness of character". In my friend's case, he was pushed. He was trained to handle combat, including having to kill a small child who was being used to plant bombs. He was not trained to handle the harassment of the local police. I don't know the stories of everyone who has taken their own life, but with the suicide rate often exceeding the battlefield rate, something is horribly wrong and shouldn't be lightly tossed aside with a cheap excuse.

Wow. Cold-hearted? Yeah. But that almost doesn't seem the point. I don't know what the word would be. Probably something I couldn't say here.

We've been angry at each other before, but I'm not angry now. I'm horrified. Crushingly disappointed, even though it's you. When I saw this comment on the dashboard, and could only see part of the comment and not who wrote it, I was sure it was going to be Jefferson Davis. I didn't expect this from you, believe it or not.

I don't know. I'll probably come down from this level of shock and horror and debate with you again, but I've lost so much respect for you that right now I don't know what if anything is left.

I wish it weren't so.

I know. I fully realize that. I didn't mention it in my post, but I did allude to it in my answer to vbk's question.

I'm sorry, I'm writing this right after reading AR's comment, and my heart feels like it's turned to frost.

I feel like crying.

Thank God. Now I really feel like crying. With relief. Thank you for saying this, Prof.

Three important points to ponder: 1. depression is most likely caused by chemical changes in the brain, not issues of courage or character, 2. Those suffering from depression cannot simply pull themselves out of it by will, and 3. depression is treatable.

AR should know that already, as well as anyone. I won't say it, even though he has done so already on TMV, but he knows what I'm talking about.

All -

I have suffered from bi-polar and associated depression in my life, tried to commit suicide a number of times, came very close on 2 occasions, until I was diagnosed with a severe chemical imbalance and now take medications.

So, I should have been a bit clearer. To that small percentage that are also dealing with a medical issue, they deserve sympathy. However, their suicidal tendencies are therefore also not related to combat per se, and would exist regardless, unless treated chemically.

To the others, yes, I stick by what I said. I cannot classify in my mind those who injure or commit suicide to get out of combat as having made a 'sacrifice'. I said on a personal level I certainly felt sorry for them, just not as soldiers.

And ALL military's, our included, define any attempts to create a self-inflicted wound to get out of combat as a severe crime, in this case UCMJ Article 115 - Intentional self-inflicted injury in a hostile fire pay zone or in time of war. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 10 years.

Hate away if you must, but I have a different view on this.

AR --

I think there's a pretty big distinction that's being missed. We're not talking here about people who want a payout from their company and "accidentally" get their arm caught in a meat grinder.

You say you understand if there's a "medical" issue. As a bipolar person, you likely understand this issue pretty well (my family has a long history of bipolar/manic depression, so I know a bit as well). The brain chemistry of a bipolar person is something that it's very difficult to change without treatment -- as well you should know. The cause of that brain chemistry is generally genetic or otherwise inherent.

I think perhaps what you may be missing is that in many people, traumatic events can cause a change in brain chemistry that mimics natural, genetically-inherited bipolar disorder or depression. The agitated, unpredictable highs and the catatonic lows are things that are happening in their brain chemistry, too; it's just from a different source.

I'd like to offer a comparison. If a person is born without one of hir legs, that person generally gets a prosthetic leg. If a different person gets hir leg injured in combat and needs amputation, that person generally gets a prosthetic leg. One is from birth and one is from combat, but the condition is the same, and the treatment is the same (obviously after the wound has healed). We don't say that the person in combat should be redeployed without treatment because it's not really a "medical" issue.

as one who has walked in the land WITH the dead, war shocks the brain chemicals out of kilter, and not just soldiers, the civilians. Suicide amongst refugees and the war torn is astronomical.

In war, among soldiers who are in shooting killing blowing up wars, it is not 'a small number' of persons who are shocked and their physiological chemistry turned upside down, it is most.

The government has its reasons for dampening and diverting figures and for NOT informing the public about how shock of any kind causes severances of many kind in the body. Persons can have genetic fragilities re balanced brain chemistry ... they are born with it and it 'ripens' as they become older, often showing up in late adolescence.

None whether born with, or shocked into critical imbalances, are responsible for sudden surges and losses of balance of brain chemistry and other so very minute trace chemicals in the body that are less than the point of a pencil but make the difference between being at peace and being ever not at rest psychologically, spiritually, and physically.

Spiritual, meaning 'of the spirit' which is the sense a person carries that they have a strong animating force that wants to live, likes to live, cares about their own life and the lives of others. Spirit. Not to mention Mind, Body, Heart, and Soul, as well.

SElf-inflicted wounds 'to get out of' service, is not the issue at hand. Most who want to 'get out of service' just go AWOL, just drive off and dont come back. Until, or unless dragged back. Seen that too, up close, way more than once. Desertion by injury or walking, is a different situation and subject altogether.

I responded because the topic is suicide by vets. I've written about it today at TMV here. http://themoderatevoice.com/51542/veteran-suici...

The battle to be respectful to men and women who served and who are shocked and injured, continues. It ought not be a battle. It is very clear what is authentic shock and what is not. A civvie might not be able to discern, but well trained shrinks who have years in the field can. My field, 40 years, up to the ankles ever in blood. Scar clan.

roro -

I will grant that if changes in brain chemistry are occurring, that would be something to consider. Please point me to any studies that show that those chemical changes are occurring, as I would like to read them.

"I cannot classify in my mind those who injure or commit suicide to get out of combat as having made a 'sacrifice'. "

My friend was trying to get back into combat, as a US mercenary, but was stuck in jail the day before he was supposed to leave. You've assumed that these soldiers are trying to escape combat, but I'm not so sure. I thought that many of these people were home from combat unless they wanted to go back. I do know that many of these people were at home when they killed themselves.

I've also often wondered about how scientists can tell the difference between chemicals that cause depression, and those that are caused by depression.

Sorry General Austin, whatever your personal history, whatever your opinion, -- your are so rigidly incredibly positioned, exposed, why a loose projectile could find its way to loosen by dint of the hopes of many and find its way to land on your head. In the Vietnam war the soldiers might have visited your tent late at night.......

People may sign up or been lied to and signed up, or been bamboozled and signed-- no matter. When a soldier, many are incredibly young people, determines that what they are doing has no meaning and perhaps may even be immoral, they have choices before them...... the unhealthiest, the ones who already have deficits going in likely just get worse....... the healthiest probably choose sociopathic means of escaping (stay drugged or drunk- it's a way of dissociating)-- though it means one loses touch with what they did, their own behavior, sometimes crazy, and then sobering up stateside can bring on a lot of nightmares.. In the biz we call it healthy narcissism, they do what they have to, to put themselves out of the crazy situation (like the soldier who recently shot himself in the shoulder to avoid being redeployed to Afghanistan). There are also the honorable ones who try to face down the military, but more often then not they are made to eat crow, thrown in the brig, and shamed out of service as if they lost their minds, -- they didn't, but are often further wounded by trying to stand up for themselves. There are those who are able to go out honorably, resigning with protest, like Captain Hoh recently did and like Erin Watada, though somehow they too are tainted by their experience.

Perhaps an arm chair tactician or a simply rigid heartless, perhaps inexperienced soul could label them all to be cowards. I would vouch that it takes a hell of a lot more courage than imaginable to go up against the status quo, even though by training they are supposed to refuse illegal orders. Those who do protest in whatever way they do, likely get the benefit of having stood guard on their own soul and attempted to follow its deep counsel. I suspect the ones that come home most messed up are the one that pitted duty against their own sense of right and wrong. In that case the duty they did does not protect them from their own conscience, thus they suffer and sometimes take their own life, tragically.

I also believe the biological model is only one way to look at depression and should be noted that PTSD is not a mere depression, however debilitating. Science does not have the instruments to measure "soul loss" likely Dr. E, could do a more credible job of explaining that if she cared to. I do know that the ones who espouse a bio-medical model as an explanation for depression often find bio-medical and pharmacological solutions too. Many have rejected this as a singular solution to the problem.

ProfElwood -

Valid point.

AR -- I don't have access to the medical journals I used to (I'm no longer an academic and I didn't go into that field), but just googling in "brain chemistry PTSD" brought up a ton of lay-person articles.

On the other hand, it should be pretty clear that people don't just go and off themselves if their brain chemistry is acting in healthy way. Have you ever done biofeedback? A person can truly change their body processes by focused meditation, and one can stimulate things like alpha waves within the brain with enough practice, one can lower one's blood pressure through daily relaxation; hell, they say just having a dog raises a person's health (by whatever method of measurement they use). Considering we can change all these ways in which our body works (physical, quantifiable effects) by just being happy or relaxed or whatever, why is it a stretch to think that severe emotional trauma might do the opposite?

For those wishing to know more, google 'brain chemicals' and 'research' and 'PTSD' and perhaps '2009'. You will get some hits. Unfortunately, in the 'free and open internet,' most medical and research journals that have the real meat with methodologies and stats and controls laid out clearly, are by subscription only.

dr.e

AR - Here's a link related to brain chemistry and stress reaction in military situations. It's not directly related to suicide, but may be of some value in advancing understanding of the phenomenon. You can also roam around the site to see study results and studies underway related to PTSD, depression and other issues related to chemical - and physiological - changes in the brain resulting from combat situations. I know it's not fully on point, just thought it might be helpful.

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/05/specific...

Honoring the heroes has its place. So does caring for all who serve or have served. And, damn the political leaders who send them to die or be forever diminished in their wars of choice.

I can't argue with that.

They don't kill themselves "to get out of combat," AR. Many suicides are committed by veterans who have already returned home and are not even IN combat anymore. Regardless of where and when it happens, war-related suicides happen because the individual is living with unbearable psychic pain. They don't do it to "get out of combat." They do it because they are dead inside and they want to *be* dead.

Jeez Louise.

kathy -

I have been thinking about your reply since I got it, as it had a strong reaction for me. I have indeed been looking at this wrong.

My initial reaction was driven by the use of the words 'ultimate sacrifice'. I still have issues with that term being used for those who commit suicide, even with my own background. I cannot shake the feeling it debases the use of it for those who gave their lives performing their duty.

That said, I do think my words were way too strong, and I found myself writing things upon reflection I know I cannot defend.

Cowardice in particular was a very shameful term for me to throw around, as was equating suicides with those who do self-harm to get out of battle.

For those comments, I do feel sorry for saying them.

Austin, we know one thing for sure. *You* are not a coward. That could not have been an easy thing to write. It was gutsy, and classy, and so are you.

Class act, AR.

I agree wholeheartedly about bringing the troops home and avoiding prolonged and repeated tours.
It is, indeed, a major cause of suicide within the military.

And you don't want to hear this, Kathy. But do you know what cause #2 is?
The dimenishment of spirituality within the military.
(source: Navy Times, Vol 78, 2008: quoting the Surgeon General)

That is why the military began pushing spiritual inclusion while in uniform. Don't worry, there's no "go to Church" order here. They merely encourage military members to attend services of some sort (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wicca, etc). Even atheists are encouraged to come together in support groups. This push has resulted in an overal decrease in suicide rates over 4 years of implementation

However, this year has been the worst year in recent memory in terms of suicide among military members. They haven't determined why as of yet. Many theories out there. Could be the mixture of long tours and the economy, and even perhaps an uncertainty in how the Commander-in-Chief will utilize them. Who knows.

JD, I want to commend you for using the phrase "I agree." I don't think I've ever seen you do that before. Not that you haven't agreed with me now and then in the past, on something, but you've always said, "You are absolutely correct," and when you disagree, of course, you say "You are absolutely wrong." Or just "You are wrong."

Perhaps this is the start of a longer term trend toward doubt and uncertainty. Let us hope.

You're welcome, Kat.
I've tried to be fair on all things. If you are right, I say so. If I am wrong, I try to say so as well.

You know I love ya...

"I’m sure that the war faithful will find a way to jigger these numbers — trivialize them, minimize their significance."

Please don't misinterpret my comment. This thread is understandable already very emotional for many and I'm not trying to downplay the problem. I certainly am not surprised that military life is very difficult and would lead to suicides in some people and other mental health issues in many others, which truly is tragic.

But I also want to make sure I'm understanding these numbers. I think we have to put the number in context, so I did some looking around: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28895624/

Army officials calculated the suicide rate at 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, the highest in its history and higher than the civilian rate for the first time since the Vietnam War. According to figures compiled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the civilian suicide rate was 11 per 100,000 Americans in 2004, the last year for which fully adjusted national figures are available.

Exact comparisons could be misleading because the makeup of the Army does not mirror that of American society as a whole. But among the segment of the civilian population that most closely reflects the demographic makeup of the military — males ages 18 to 24 — about 19.8 Americans committed suicide per 100,000 in 2004, CDC figures show.

Again, please don't misunderstand. I absolutely agree that concern for the mental health of our troops is warranted, I'm just not sure that these numbers are really the ones to point to to make that clear. I expect you would see a much greater difference when you look at the numbers for post-duty military (as they deal with PTSD and such) if we had such numbers. And of course just counting suicides doesn't count the large number dealing with mental health issues that thankfully don't commit suicide. I understand that this is an emotional issue and just looking at the numbers is a cold way to look at it (however, in my defense, I'm not the one who brought up the original numbers), but honestly I believe numbers are important to understanding the issue and I don't see these numbers are particularly unexpected.

You know what? I take that back, for the most part. From the article linked in the post:

"20.2 per 100,000 people in the military, compared with the civilian rate of 19.5 per 100,000. The Army's suicide rate was 12.7 per 100,000 in 2005, "

That's a significant increase since 2005. And as I mentioned suicide is just the tip of the iceburg. I didn't realize it had increased that much, as I was just comparing it to the civilian rate.

My apologies, and thanks for letting me think through the issue out loud.

Good job AR. Class.

dr.e