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The GOP and the Coming Civil War

shouting.jpgWith a title so inviting of hyperbole and hysteria, the first question which likely comes to mind may be, “Is he talking about a fight within the Republican party or open combat in the streets?” It’s a fair question, and to be honest, I’m not sure which we should focus on right now. What I do know is that we are living in a period where persons with my particular hybrid, hard-to-pigeonhole political persuasions have a lot to concern them.

First, we have an era of government which is currently dominated not just by Democrats, but by the most ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable. Any and all thoughts of conservative fiscal policy and debt / deficit awareness have been whisked out to the woodshed for a stern thrashing. While some brights spots have shown up in the foreign policy arena, Washington’s current direction in handling of the budget, health care reform, the stabilization of a floundering economy and proposed industry regulation are deeply troubling indeed.

But this is also a time when looking to the GOP for a unified front offering sound, reasoned solutions to these shortcomings seems equally futile. I would first suggest that you take a look at Rick Moran’s column from yesterday, The Different Reality Inhabited by the Conservative Base. At first glance I thought some of the criticism in there, largely drawn from one study by James Carville’s Democracy Corps and a thought provoking column by Peggy Noonan, was a bit harsh. But on further reflection, it seems to me that it may not have even gone far enough. (By all means, follow the links to those two source pieces in addition to Rick’s essay. They are eye openers, and not in the usual partisan hack festival way.)

There has long been a reasonable amount of healthy debate in the Republican ranks, largely between the primarily fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. Such discussion is useful and productive. The problem is that, ever since their trips to the woodshed in 2006 and 2008, a variety of GOP tribes have been fighting intensely to lay claim to the mantle of being “true conservatives” and attempting to raise their standard as the definitive flag of the Republican party.

This has now reached the truly alarming stage after listening to certain “hard core” individuals who consider their definition of conservatism to not only be the single valid one, but a casus belli against anyone who doesn’t speak in the proper code phrases. The calls for “purging the RINOs” from the party in the primary process (which is partially how the party lost me back in 2005) have given way to much more hostile tones in some circles, as I found out while browsing the comments section of my column from Sunday at Pajamas Media.

I had dared to suggest that the moderate-to-liberal Republican who is running on the GOP ticket in NY23 might actually merit the support of the national party, (having won the party’s nomination) rather than having a NY Conservative Party candidate divide the vote and hand the election to the Democrat. Allow me to share with you a few of the responses I received from readers in that “different reality” which Rick Moran referenced.

The Republican Party is not the party that fights liberalism; it’s the party that enables liberalism. As for me, I’d rather face the enemy bayonets across the trench than have the bayonets of my “allies” sprouting from my sternum.

No @@##$$!!!! RINOs!!!!! What don’t you people understand!? True Conservatives are sick of this s*** and will no longer go along with it “for the sake of the party”. Reform is coming, one way or another- it is up to you moderates and liberals( on both sides of the aisle) how it happens. . .

I’d rather take to the streets against these lawless criminals running our country and trampling our Constitution before supporting a Marxist Lite Obama agenda which is at best what Scozzafava supports.

We need new blood. We can’t keep putting our enemies in office under our flag. We need people who respect the Constitution. Regardless of what Obama says we are still, even though barely, a Judeo-Christian country. When we are no longer that we will cease to exist forever.

We must take to the streets or we will lose our liberty.

It’s time to stand up and be counted…Our country has been usurped by communists…let’s not mince words here….COMMUNISTS…what will YOU do about it…I will fight..

To hell with all you RINO scum! Your the reason I stayed home during the last election. Not one vote, not one penny, for the lesser of two evils ever again. If the people have to, we can take our country back by armed struggle, We’ve done it before, in case you’ve forgotten. Why do you think the sales of guns and ammo have sky rocketed in the last nine months; 10.000.000.000 rounds, yes that’s billions with a B, and if you Rino scum keep pushing the American people, you’ll be hiding under rocks beside your commie dhim friends when we come looking for you. Just a thought…

Do you suppose things like this have led to the strain on the Secret Service with an unprecedented number of threats against the President? But I digress.

Before any of our left leaning friends here become too self-righteous over this, I would remind you that I’ve seen more than a few calls for internecine warfare among the Democrats as well. There have been curious demands to challeng the Blue Dogs in traditionally red states because of your displeasure with some of their votes. Of course, putting a Nancy Pelosi type liberal up in most of these races would just result in handing the spot back to the Republicans, but who cares, as long as it makes for good press, right? But to your credit, I will admit that you generally do it in a more polite, less “blood and tear gas” fashion.

As most regular readers already know, I moderate an online chat most weekdays at my friend Ed Morrissey’s show. It’s a generally enjoyable experience with great guests and a very lively crowd. But over time, taking part in the general chatter can bring me down from time to time. As has been made clear here in the past, I’m no fan of most of President Obama’s domestic agenda, and it can be a good experience to get in with like minded people and discuss the problems with these policies and possible alternatives. But we also get more than our fair share of people who have no interest in the specifics on some of these things and simply choose to go on and on about Obama’s “secret agenda” to transform America into a socialist state, sell us out to Iran, Russia and North Korea, or make claims that the president hates his own country. It gets tiresome. I don’t think Barack Obama hates America at all. I just don’t happen to agree with his vision on how to handle the economy, health care and a number of other items.

The point is, it can get rather depressing when you’re in the mood to have a reasoned discussion on the future of conservatism. Don’t get me wrong… I’m well aware that people such as the ones who left the comments I quoted above actually only represent a small but vocal percentage of an otherwise largely civil society. (As I pointed out in a previous column.) But the problem is that the chief forums today for such debate and productive discussion – almost exclusively on the internet – seem to be dominated by the loudest, most divisive voices. There is little room for reasoned discussion of serious problems which likely could be solved with sufficient elbow grease and cooperation.

The ideal solution, of course, would be the formation of a viable third party focused on moderate, states based approaches to social issues with a strong national focus on fiscal responsibility and accountability. Sadly, the two party system is too deeply entrenched (at least for the time being) and we’re unlikely to see that any time soon.

UPDATE: A group of police and military members standing ready to defy the government? Connected?

UPDATE 2: More at Memeorandum

  • superdestroyer
    Who cares what the Republicans are doing. Until you can explain how a group that is well less than 50% of the population and shrinking is relevant to politics, then why worry about such an irrelevant group.

    Until consevatives can find an effective way of dealing with the failures and stupidty of the Bush Administraiton and the Hastert/Frist lead Congress, there is no reason to pay attention to conservatives. They conservatives had six years and failed in nearly everything they touched.

    Now the pointless argument is between the Repubican Party as a brand versus those who really care about conservative politics. No matter who wins, conservative politics is dead in the U.S. It was killed by both the incompetence of the Bush Administration and the changing demographics of the U.S.
  • JSpencer
    SD, I knew if I read far enough you would bring up "demographics" (again). When you use that word, you're really talking about "brown" people right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Jazz, I agree that conservatism is having tough times, and the nuts (evidence your quotes) are really coming out of the woodwork... although I suspect many of them are more comfortable remaining anonymous given the nature of their comments. I'm with you though, I'd love to see a viable third party take root. The adoption of instant run-off voting would encourage that effort I believe. Also it would inject some badly needed adrenalin (and competition) into the democratic process.

    It's easy to see why many people are getting frustrated in this country, but I believe it has more to do with general trends (economic mostly) than with ideological trends, which just tend to be the easy scapegoat. When people are comfortable and relaxed about their personal economies, they are less likely to be concerned about "principles", principles which can be brandished as symbols as needed when frustration takes root.



  • scarletraptor
    The problem is that the fringe elements on both sides - Minutemen, teabaggers, PETA, MoveOn, etc. - have managed to siginficantly penetrate into the mainstream. The radicals on both sides are dangerous. But I think those on the right are much more. They are talking about how the govt is going to imprison and /or attack them. And this, if they keep up the provocative talk, will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    This is actually pretty close to the same thing that the libertarians(the fringe part that usually does not vote not the mainstream) were screaming during Bush as well. It was blamed on the left when in reality it was a meet up between the fringe left and the fringe libertarians on the Prison Planet boards and the like. The main difference I see is that the left lacked a 24/7 advertisement for their side like the Repubs have in Fox news, I think in the long run it will be considered for the best because I think this will end only when the Repubs have lost enough elections for the "rino" screamers to realize that they have pushed the country much further to the left in their hope for purity.
  • jchem
    It would be much easier to take the modern day Repubs seriously if they actually presented something as an alternative. Much of the Dem strategy since Obama was elected seems to have been to paint the Repubs as a bunch of crazies, led by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or behind the scenes by the evil Dick Cheney. It is the party of the birthers, the tea baggers, or those who bring guns to town hall meetings.

    But you know, it seems pretty hard to not find a lot of truth in this. The Repubs don't seem interested in doing anything. Take the health care debate:

    Senate Republicans, acknowledging they lack the votes to block a health care reform bill outright, have implemented a comprehensive political strategy to delay, define and derail.

    Excuse me? Delay, define, and derail? How does that solve anything? If this is the best the current crop of the GOP can do, then perhaps they just need to keep losing elections until they find some people who really care about governing.
  • vey9
    I don't know if you read the Las Vegas newspaper article Jazz linked to in his first update. It's about some new group called Oath Keepers. Check out the comments on the newspaper's website under the article.
  • The problem is that the fringe elements on both sides - Minutemen, teabaggers, PETA, MoveOn, etc. - have managed to siginficantly penetrate into the mainstream. The radicals on both sides are dangerous.


    I think the idea that the "fringe elements" are the main cause of divisiveness is an oversimplification. There is a divide on the right, but it is not simply a divide between "fringe" conservatives and "mainstream" conservatives. There are social conservatives and fiscal conservatives, whose ideologies are incompatible with one another. Then there are neoconservatives and paleoconservatives, who can't stand one another.

    Who's to say which group is the "fringe element"? It's not simply a matter of which group is the most "far-right" because Americans can't even agree on what "far right" means. Is it the reactionary bible-thumping religious right? Or is it the more the pro-war neoconservatives? Or is it the Ayn Rand worshipping capitalists?

    It's not enough to simply dismiss certain groups as "fringe elements." Some of the "fringe elements" on the right have serious disagreements with one another, so they cannot be considered as if they were a unified whole.

    And what about the "moderates" in the two major political parties? Are they to receive complete immunity simply because they are moderates. As I recall, it was "moderates" in the Democratic and Republican parties that delivered the votes necessary to take us to war in Iraq. Moreover, it was the "fringe elements" in the Green Party, Libertarian Party, and Constitution Party that adamantly opposed the war.

    I think the biggest problem we have is politics today is not extremism, but partisanship. Extremists might have extreme views, but at least they tend to be consistent in their views. This is in contrast to partisans who hold no beliefs of their own and merely change their beliefs in accordance with what is most convenient for their political party (i.e. the House & Senate Democratic and Republican leadership).

    Who are more reprehensible? The "fringe elements" who actually believe their extreme ideologies, or the mainstream politicians who pander to these groups even though they don't agree with their ideologies?











  • JeffersonDavis
    Please stop using the term "teabaggers". I am a democrat and am usually in line with everything Jazz writes. But I also attend the Tea Party rallies because I feel totally unrepresented in Congress. The "Blue Dogs" do not have adequate representation - and there are more of us at the Tea Parties than you can possibly imagine. My two Senators (both democrats) have gone against the voters' wishes in the state to follow Obama and Reid. That will hurt them come next election (I hope).

    Jazz (as usual) nailed the political climate perfectly. Yes, the fringe on both sides are whacked out nuts. With James Carville and Rick Moran stated that well. However, the centermost bulk of the country is uneasy. Yes, they want reform in healthcare - but not the Obama/Reid/Pelosi brand of reform. Join that with the standard attack on 2nd Amendment rights; anti-God comments ("America is not a Judeo-Christian Nation") and several other fronts, then you get anxiety in the general population.
    For the ultra-right, that may lead to violent statements (as stated above), and from the rest, it could mean going to a Tea Party protest, calling Congressmen, or blogging. If anyone makes a threat against the President, they should go directly to jail (and not pass "Go"). Regardless of his policies, Obama is our President and deserves the respect that comes with the office.

    The fact of the matter is, that there is, indeed, uneasiness in the mass of people in America. Socialism scares us. It isn't black versus white. It isn't even democrat versus republican anymore. It is the far-left power shift that is unfettered due to a one-party rule in the executive and legislative branches. I personally prefer that the President is not of the same party that controls Congress - regardless of party. It is good for checks-and-balances to have the ability to say "no". And that doesn't exist right now.
  • shannonlee
    "my particular hybrid, hard-to-pigeonhole political persuasions have a lot to concern them.

    First, we have an era of government which is currently dominated not just by Democrats, but by the most ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable"

    Now that is funny. You go from calling yourself some sort of "hybrid" to then acting like a first class right wing wack job with your next statement. "ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable" Really??? "imaginable"??? I know you're not a birther or anything crazy like that, but that last statement smacks of the Rep/Conservative fringe.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Well stated, Nic.

    It's the reason I may be looking toward the Constitution Party next year. I wouldn't be leaving the Democratic Party, since they left me a long time ago.
  • SteveK
    JD wrote: "I wouldn't be leaving the Democratic Party, since they left me a long time ago."
    Now it's so clear... I see the light. You, Jefferson, are the kind of Democrat that agrees with 90% of everything that Republicans espouse and disagree with 90% of everything Democrats are doing and trying to do... AND the Democrat Party left YOU a long time ago.

    Thanks for clearing up the confusion between what you say and who you say you are.
  • It's the reason I may be looking toward the Constitution Party next year. I wouldn't be leaving the Democratic Party, since they left me a long time ago.


    It's ironic that some of these right-leaning protesters chose "Tea Parties" as the name of their protest groups, as there actually is a political party called the "Boston Tea Party." Only it's not a conservative political party. It's a libertarian political party that splintered off from the Libertarian Party back in 2006 due to differences of opinion in their platform. I actually ended up voting for the Boston Tea Party candidate, Charles Jay, for president in 2008, as I was not impressed with the Libertarian candidates for president (Bob Barr) and vice president (Wayne Allyn Root).

    My understanding is that some of the members of 2009's Tea Party protests were genuine, libertarian-leaning, small-government, pro-Constitution types who have no love for either the Democratic or Republican parties. Unfortunately, though, a significant number of the Tea Party protesters were Republican partisans whose vocal cries against the government came only after their guy was no longer in the White House.

    I think it's important that people realize that the Tea Party protesters are not a monolithic group. Unfortunately, the media doesn't point out that some of them are libertarians as opposed to conservatives. Kind of like how the media failed to point out that some of the antiwar protesters were libertarians as opposed to progressives.

















  • Don Quijote
    but by the most ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable


    Let me first say that you suffer from a real lack of imagination.... Let me also point out that the overton window has been moved so far to the right that Obama is proposing policies that are solidly to the right of Nixon's. The problem here is that the so called Liberals are pretty centrist (No Single Payer, No Carbon Tax, No Income Tax increases, NO Wall Street Regulation), the Moderates are really Conservatives and the Conservatives are just plain bat-s*** crazy...
  • Jim_Satterfield
    How you were ever a Democrat puzzles me. Every political agenda you have supported in your comments fits far more readily with the more conservative, though not radical, positions of the Republican party. And I hate to tell you this, but no health care reform plan whose primary purpose is to protect the publicly held for-profit corporations' bottom line will help solve our health care non-system's problems.
  • lurxst
    I love all the handwringing and despair over the U.S. becoming socialist. Like that could ever happen in an oligarchy.
  • Pug
    Join that with the standard attack on 2nd Amendment rights...

    What are you talking about? You mean the standard claims of attacks on 2nd amendment rights?

    There has been no legislation proposed, introduced or even discussed regarding gun control. You can make thing up because you are paranoid but it doesn't make them true.
  • Pug
    Jefferson Davis sounds like a Democrat in the tradition of Jefferson Davis.
  • tidbits
    I agreed with much of your comment, and disagreed with some, but thought it was, overall, a very interesting perspective. Thank you.
  • First, we have an era of government which is currently dominated not just by Democrats, but by the most ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable

    Sorry, Obama doesn't measure up as liberal when compared to Richard Nixon, much less Lyndon Johnson or Franklin Roosevelt. Where has Obama championed anything as liberal as forcibly busing students across town to reach racial equality in education? Where has Obama started a public works program that directly hires people to do nothing-work for the government just to give them a paycheck? Where has Obama launched a program that compares to Rural Electification, in scope or in theory? Did Obama create anything like the EPA? Did he suddenly declare wage and price controls? Has he instituted severe penalties for faulty consumer products?

    It's only "the most ambitious, far reaching liberal agenda imaginable" if you can't remember the 1970s or picked up a history book to learn about the 1940s and 1950s.
  • JSpencer
    Please, there is no "far left power switch", that's absurd. And if there is any socialism going on in this country, with the exception of programs that have historically been embraced and supported by the vast majority of Americans, it seems to be benefitting only the entities who need it least.

    JD, if you are the democrat you keep saying you are, then what is it about that party that appeals to you so much? I'm genuinely curious because most of your posting here suggests such a loyalty would be illogical.

  • tidbits
    Hi JD -

    1. "the standard attack on 2nd Amendment rights; anti-God comments" Just to clarify, Obama supported the Supreme Court decision finding that 2nd Amendment rights were personal in nature, and has been consistently pro-faith. I assume you are talking about others on the left when you make this comment. Those on the "left" are not all anti-gun or anti-god. Many on the left are actually faith based people who are progressive because of their belief in religious based social justice, and others, like my (capital F, capital L) Flaming Liberal wife, have carry permits for their guns. Just don't want to get into genralizations of left/right.

    2. "If anyone makes a threat against the President, they should go directly to jail (and not pass "Go"). Regardless of his policies, Obama is our President and deserves the respect that comes with the office." Agree wholeheartedly with both of those thoughts. Thank you.

    3. "Socialism scares us." I think some people are scared by the word "socialism" without realizing fully what it means, not referring to you btw. I've seen very little in actual legislation that comes anywhere near real socialism. Single payer, which would have been arguably socialistic, has been dropped. Socialism, defined as governemnt owning the means of production and engaging in central planning of the economy, isn't on the radar in any meaningful way. To the extent the D's may have thought it, they have been monumentally ineffective to date. My view.

    4. "I personally prefer that the President is not of the same party that controls Congress - regardless of party. It is good for checks-and-balances to have the ability to say "no". And that doesn't exist right now." Well, a lot of people share your opinion on that, though I think it's good once in a while to have one party take control to swing the pendulum back & get us centered.

    5. I liked the picture of you in uniform better; it engendered respect rather than the devisiveness associated with the "Don't Tread on Me" flag. Just my dumb opinion.
  • You make some good points. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are thrown around nowadays in a pretty subjective manner. Obama is hardly the "radical" that some of his critics would have us believe. He's more of a status quo Democrat, pursuing fiscally populist policies that have been a staple for Democrats for several decades.

    I think much of the criticism of Obama's policies are warranted, but I find it interesting how people are only recently becoming alarmed about big government and socialism, as if Obama's policies marked a radical departure from his predecessors.

    Obama's critics have a valid point when they point out the record deficits that are occurring under Obama's watch. However, those critics would have been more helpful had they spoken up five or six years ago.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Thanks, Tidbits.

    I did refer to those on the left for the most part of the anti 2nd Amendment thoughts. But you're right. Not much has been done (yet) on that front. In my defense, though, with a liberal Congress and a left of center President, now would be the time that any legislation would get passed.

    As far as socialism goes, you're correct there too. As long as the Constitution is adhered to, they can put any program in they wish, assuming their constituents are behind them, which in the case of single payer - they were not.

    The pendulum swing makes me nervous whether it swings left or right. If it centers us, that's fine. But with the balance of control so solidly on the left, I'm afraid it will go way past center and land us somewhere we won't want to find ourselves. Just an opinion. It makes me nervous.

    My wife talked me into the new picture. That one was in my pictures folder, so I used it. I don't consider the flag divisive, although it may be to some. It presently flies on every Navy ship, and will until the President decides to change it. I'm proud of that flag. It represented unity in the face of English oppression.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Let me try to spell it out, Jim.

    1. I support labor.
    2. I am deeply concerned for the envrionment (but don't buy the climate change assertion)
    3. I am a fiscal conservative like Clinton.
    4. I am a social conservative because of my faith.
    5. I support capitalism with strong regulation.
    6. I support unfettered 2nd Amendment rights.
    7. I stand against corporatocracy or representatiion of corporations vice the people.

    You are obviously confusing my kind of Democrat with the scum in Washington. You've heard the term Blue Dog or Red State Democrat, haven't you? I can also be called a Jeffersonian Democrat. That's me.

    However, those are becoming extinct in DC because of the infiltration of the ultra-liberal element in the cities and "blue" areas of the country. They've totally ruined my party.

    EDIT: As far as the held-for-profit corps and healthcare, you are absolutely correct.
    The dems in DC want to take it from the scumbag insurance corporations and give it corporations that will benefit from public option or single-payer. It's just a changing of the guard with the status quo.
    The only way to actually reform healthcare is the heavily regulate the insurance, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and tort/trial lawyers. That would take all of it out of the hands of corporations, for the most part - and help the common man get the health insurance they need.











  • tidbits
    JD -

    You said, "The pendulum swing makes me nervous whether it swings left or right. If it centers us, that's fine. But with the balance of control so solidly on the left, I'm afraid it will go way past center and land us somewhere we won't want to find ourselves. Just an opinion. It makes me nervous."

    This is way too obvious, but so much depends on where one thinks "center" is. As ThurmanHart pointed out above, the Obama Adminstration to date wouldn't have qualified as moderate/liberal Republican 40 years ago. Nixon helped put through the EPA, opened relations with China, etc; Ford supported ERA while wife Betty vocally supported abortion rights (to the left of Obama's position). Historically speaking, the pendulum has moved significantly right over the past 40 years.

    The pendulum swing back won't be much in my opinion because a) the Blue Dogs will keep the liberal D's from over-extending (as they have done with health care and cap-and-trade), b) the D majority will likely diminish in the off year elections of 2010, and c) the D's won't propose much controversial after Jan. 1 because they won't want to look too out there in an election year.

    As for gun control, even Pelosi has said not to touch it. The D's have been burned on this in the past & want nothing to do with it. Blue Dog senators from pro-gun states would never let it through in any event.
  • JeffersonDavis
    SteveK,

    First of all, you are either an angry person, or you are merely a partisan.
    You will defend your party no matter what they do. That's your right, of course, but it hardly garners respect.

    Look at my response to Jim Satterfield if you want to find out the kind of democrat I am.
    There's no confusion here, brother. I am a moderate. You are a liberal. That's why I come to TMV. Why do you come here?
  • JeffersonDavis
    I agree with you in theory, Nic. But the media missed the whole point altogether.
    The Tea Party here in my hometown was 30% democrat, 10% Independent, 50% Republican, and 10% Libertarian. Yes it did have more GOP types than any other, but I thought is was a pretty good mix, considering. The media wouldn't DARE tell you those demographics, because it undermines their agenda to promote liberal policy.

    Of course that's my opinion - I could be wrong.
  • bigorange
    DQ - thank you! The tone has moved so far right in recent years that moderates are considered far left. By today's standards Goldwater would be a liberal. This Republican mantra that Obama is so far left that he is a socialist is just nonsense.
  • JeffersonDavis
    I agree, Tidbits.
    The Dems and Repubs, though, have moved so far away from the Constitution (IMHO). It really doesn't matter which party is in control. Some corporate benefactor will benefit, be it corporations, unions, or every other lobby. The only lobby that is not listened to much anymore is the People's Lobby.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    "I did refer to those on the left for the most part of the anti 2nd Amendment thoughts. But you're right. Not much has been done (yet) on that front. In my defense, though, with a liberal Congress and a left of center President, now would be the time that any legislation would get passed."
    Yet with all of that control I have yet to hear even a peep. I would have heard it since I am not pro-guns I am a flat out gun bunny of the "my rifle is an extension of my body" school of thought(raised in a militia area surrounded by Nam vets). I spent the 90's fearing for my guns, until I noticed that "talk" was all that they ever did and the talk ceased after gun sales skyrocketed. It made me begin to question their motives and I did notice a correlation between slight market slumps and "discussing" gun issues. In my fevered paranoid brain I think they were just trying to boost the economy during slightly down times, but of course it is a conspiracy theory so take it with a salt mine while repeating "correlation does not equal causation." I vote Dem without fear of them taking my guns because it took until Bush II before the Repubs began talking loudly about revamping SS and other popular programs. You do not do that at the beginning of a political era but the end, much like Carter and his merry regulations, once the pendulum is preparing to swing the other way you throw everything you have at it to buy yourself just a bit more time. In the end it always fails but we should not see that from the Dems until around 2030-2040 at which point they will go bat-shit and act like lefty Repubs like they did in the late 60's.

    The reason this swing feels so harsh is because you are living through it. Reagan was considered a very dangerous man by those that did not agree with him for the exact same reasons, as was FDR, when you are changing the language tone and direction of the country it is often upsetting to those that wanted us to go further in their direction and also upsetting to those that wish things to stay close to how they are now(which is always a large amount of people no matter the political era change is scary). The problem is that we are on the far right wing arc of the current political era which is why Obama looks extreme even though he is well to the right of every president between FDR-Nixon of course god forbid our media put this into historical context.
  • JSpencer
    JD, your position on global warming doesn't square with your assertion that you are "deeply concerned for the environment". Can't have it both ways I'm afraid, not as long as reality trumps personal preference. As for 2nd amendment rights, what do you mean by "unfettered"? You know the use of that word implies zero restrictions right? Just checking...
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    This is part of the current shift. Reagan kicked the influence of special interest out and hopefully by the end of his admin Obama will have done the same with the corporate interests. It is a long process, for instance Reagan got them out but not until a little after Bush II got in was the job largely completed by them being frozen out and mocked in the halls of power and main street. Corporations now are the ones with too much power and influence and if it is not ended we will have a mall not a country left but changing that dynamic takes a long period of time and sadly the work has just begun. Why do I think this? Do you not hear the cries of "socialist/communist" coming out of the corporate elite? When they scream like a stuck pig it means they have been stuck or are about to be and they damn well know it.
  • SteveK
    JeffersonDavis wrote: "First of all, you are either an angry person, or you are merely a partisan. You will defend your party no matter what they do. That's your right, of course, but it hardly garners respect.
    Normally I ignore your personal attacks but lately your comments make it sound like you've started believing your own press. "90% of your countrymen agree with me" (my personal favorite)... "More agree with me here than you, oddly enough." (JD reply to Father_Time) when commenting to those who disagree with your position.

    This may be to to the fact that you seem to believe that when others don't respond to your ad hominem that people think you're right. I suggest you reread this thread and count the pro vs. con responses your comments have received.

    Better yet, as you seem to believe me to be an "angry" "partisan" one, why don't you go back and reread your comments over the last week and then go back and read mine. Let's see who comes across as an angry partisan.
  • JSpencer
    MSF, not only will it be a mall, but it will be one of those dying malls in what was once a thriving town. If that happens it will be because the electorate didn't have the intelligence and courage to stop it.
  • Zzzzz
    Do you not hear the cries of "socialist/communist" coming out of the corporate elite? When they scream like a stuck pig it means they have been stuck or are about to be and they damn well know it.

    That would be dreamy.
  • CStanley
    Do you not hear the cries of "socialist/communist" coming out of the corporate elite?

    You mean like the corporations that are defecting from the Chamber of Commerce because they're lining up behind cap and trade, or the healthcare corporate interests that have signed on to the Dem's healthcare bill? Or would it be the two of our big three automakers who are complaining about the govt bailing them out? Or maybe the megabanks and investment houses?

    Sorry, I'm not getting the corporations screaming like stuck pigs vibe, at all.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Steve,

    You started the personal attacks and numbers throwing:
    "I see the light. You, Jefferson, are the kind of Democrat that agrees with 90% of everything that Republicans espouse and disagree with 90% of everything Democrats are doing and trying to do... "

    And the comment I made to father time on another thread "More agree with me here than you..." was in direct response to his stupid comment that "no one agrees with you Jefferson."


    And the angry partisan line.... First of all, I do apologize for the "angry" remark. It was off the cuff and I shouldn't have said it. I have no way of knowing your disposition. I do however recognize a patter of nasty comments from you toward me, unless I hop on your spin train. Well that's never going to happen.
    And your are absolutely a partisan. I've seen them on both sides here, and I call them all out on it. I, however, am not a partisan. I recognize good and bad in both parties and try to call em' like I see em'. The more reasonable commentors here know that and have acknowleged it. I am a moderate - a fiscal and social conservative democrat.
  • JeffersonDavis
    You make a great argument MSF; but there are many corporate elite types that make bank when liberals have their way as well. Conservative benefit one set of corporate interests, and liberals benefit another set - including national unions which I put under the same umbrella. What the repubs do is wrong, I agree. But to turn around and to let the dems do the same thing is wrong as well. Neither are serving the people IMHO.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    First they came for the (enter group here). In this case its the chamber of commerce, if they are de-fanged this entire country will change and fast. Much like the great depression a good deal of what is going on in the economy is a changing of the guard. During the great depression the country lost many big businesses that had been major and powerful players like buggy makers for horse and buggies(this is actually a true example). The market shifted in the industrial era much like it is now and causing much the same problems, like needing fewer and fewer and less skilled employees. We are now shifting from the industrial to the digital era and some of those powerful dinosaurs will need to be tamed before they can be taken down to allow for new groups to sprout up and the chamber protects many of this nations dinosaurs. Since the chamber of commerce protects them collectively(akk collectivists why dont the Randites fight this?) it allows dinosaurs that need to be led out to pasture to have a larger voice then they should which of course is the entire point of the chamber of commerce, they were also pro-bail out.

    I also think this will be done incrementally much like the backing off of the special interests in the prior era began with a boom with the union breaking but then went about its time tip toeing to the finish line. My guess is that he may de-fang the chamber which will be the boom but the rest will be done slowly. I think they are just trying to end the marriage of the US gov and corporate America, that began during the new deal, starting with a "trial separation where they can see other people" at which point they are pealing off what will be the future of US industry who may share some of their interests in common. I as well am a bit worried but I also know in the old system the chamber got what the chamber wanted whether under Bush or Clinton largely and I cant say that has really helped our country.
  • SteveK
    comment read...
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Its mostly picking the least evil option but I have been greatly excited by the break from the chamber of commerce since they are a good deal of the reason why our system is stacked the way it is since they are the special interest group that always gets its way. What we need now is a shift from listening to the players of the old economy to listening to the players of the new economy and in many situations those are different things since we are moving from the industrial to the digital age.
  • CStanley
    MSF, you misunderstand...what I was getting at is that a lot of the big corporate interests are actually supporting the administration's policies, so I hardly see the defanging that you're referring to.

    As far as the Chamber, I do think they ought to represent small business interests over large corporations and so if the big corps line up at the govt trough and bypass having the Chamber as their mouthpiece, I would hope that it might eventually be a good development. I agree with some of your points about supporting dinosaurs that need to fail, which isn't good for the economy as a whole...but if they were more of a support for start ups and entrepreneurs then the function would be positive during transitional times.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I agree, my big fear in this is for small businesses but I hope that if enough groups peel away from the chamber I think that they will begin to form other groups and a small business focused group would have a powerful voice in repub and dem administrations due to our culture.
    The big ones that can profit as well are lining up and though I know this admin will have their WalMart(Clinton) or Halliburton(Bush) sadly I have come to take that for granted. Every administration has their winners and losers depending on where we choose to shift our funds, the exciting development to me is that these ideas may start coming from our elected officials instead of the chamber of commerce or from CEO's instead of the Chamber of commerce who lobby for many interests. So instead of bringing in the chamber and saying we are looking for X can we help you with Y we bring in MS or Apple and say if you help sell this bill you could make a killing in profits they get their bill without a thousand companies getting "their little slice" instead only the necessary players get a cut. This is basically how gov research dollars and the like used to work in the past(historically not so much in this country we have always been a little slice country), we had a need and they tried to fill it. Now of course we live in an era of, they create the problem and then lobby for us to pay them to fix it only the way that they tell us that it can be fixed that low and behold they will profit nicely from somehow creating a need that we then have to ask them to fill as well from which they again profit handsomely.
  • JeffersonDavis
    "least evil option"

    You may be right, MSF. I guess we'll see. Heck, at this point.....I'd try anything to get rid of this anxiety and worry. If Obama does well and get this problem under control, I'll give him full props. But I dont want to be peed on and told it's raining. That's the way I feel with climate change and the bogus crap behind that. I am wholeheartedly behind green energy. But don't lie to me to get it across. Green energy makes sense as long as you don't try to change it in one year. Our economy runs on petroleum for now. Do it slowly. If they do it right, the Cap and Trade nonsense will no longer be needed.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    JD- I am on the other side with climate change legislation though I think it is more important for us to be energy independent than anything else. Helping the environment is a sweet bonus but we have a nightmare to figure out on climate change since global dimming has dulled the effects but is also causing problems. If we cut down on fossil fuel use it will cut down on global dimming and then we will heat up with intense speed so we will have to find a way to reverse the process a bit in the long run. I am not sure what technology will do it but I know what the tech world looks like right now with innovation though so I do not doubt its possible and probably where we are headed but from my point of view I see climate change as a huge issue that is multifaceted and has implications that will effect all of the earths inhabitants.
  • CStanley
    Ugh...

    I guess that's why, even when people from left and right agree on some of the problems (and even on part of the solution), it's still almost impossible to forge ahead with something we'd both agree on.

    On the one hand, we seem to be agreeing on the need to support small businesses, but I see the rest of your proposal as a complete disaster (and in fact I see it as the direction that this administration is heading- they're picking off certain 'winners' of large companies and completely allowing them to run the table. I don't see- at all- how that would be preferrable to having a large conglomerate of companies having a place at the table and certainly neither of those would be my choice if there was any real possibility of having the govt do what is right without regard to which corporate or special interest groups they need to buy or bribe at all.

    In another thread you mention that you supported Obama because he's the statist you trusted the most...and I guess the point is that as a conservative I don't trust statists at all (and it's not any better on the GOP side even though they generally keep the private corps nominally private and the Dems are more explicit about public-private 'partnerships'.)
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I actually hate public-private partnerships whether used by Repubs or Dems but I will admit a preference for infrastructure research and educational pursuits, that and honestly in this era its just the way it works and I gave up that fight long ago. This is why I liked Ron Paul though, I am not fond of our giant piggy bank and the fact that it gets used to further the goals of a free market that it corrupts. From my point of view it is much better for the gov to do it itself keeping public and private totally separate but sadly this is how things currently get done because if they made such a system where they could make what they need it would be labeled communist because it would cost the business community contracts that they fail to see corrupts the market they want us to leave alone. It is a thorny issue, I would like things to function much differently but I will call this a win because the other option is to cave to the chamber and go right back to business as usual which served us well but due to entrenched interests and a shifting technology and economy things must change. The question is what is an acceptable way to change it and from my point of view the gov asking for services for its needs is fine even if it chooses to do so in a one on one way with what it believes will be the best provider or decides to meet with members of the business community to explain why it may be in their financial best interests to hear them out. It could be argued that the admin is using reverse lobbying going after companies that could benefit from a changing country. The nature of politics is making deals or giving them everything they want, in my opinion Bush and Clinton gave them everything they wanted and Obama is trying to make deals, its different but I see no issue with it. Obama meets with leaders of groups that are about to be effected by legislation and makes deals(which drives me a bit crazy but mandating without making deals would have been a lot less popular with all but the left) or he meets with groups that he thinks may benefit or have some other stake in helping to pass the legislation that is on the agenda. The only major difference I really see is that they are cutting out lobbiests which of course is a campaign promise that though sullied in certain ways they have held very close to and I do respect that. Well that and they seem to be taking on the chamber which is a rather bold thing to try to pull off.

    On the statist thing he was my favorite but they were all statists. Only RP was not some version of a New Deal statist, whether it be a strong central gov focused on ensuring profits for the elites while going to war(since that is the one type of spending no one questions in a recession and of course a great way of inventing money) or the strong central gov safety netters who ensure profits for the elites.

    I GREATLY respect and understand your fear and dislike(thats my reaction) to statists, I am a lil new dealie but at the state not the federal level which cant happen in our current system. But all of our presidents since FDR have been statists so its a job of choosing lesser of evils which is never pleasant. I like Obama I really do but he is still a pol and no matter how many dreams of mine he makes true he will dash 100, thats what pols do. I had to pick my favorite person to take the reigns of the patriot act, please give me Obambi sir.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Well, we can agree on number one, disagree on the climate change part of number two agree on number 5 and agree on number 7. As for number 6, how do you define unfettered? Stingers? Full auto with body armor piercing ammo? Fifty caliber sniper rifles like the one the fruitcake used in Kansas City so he could shoot at the emergency workers responding to a fire he started and have it go through their vehicles? And honestly, your definition of ultra-liberal is in reality completely off course. Liberal, probably. Ultra-liberal, no. Also, the heaviest regulation will eventually be circumvented if that's all you do. Look at what happened to Glass-Steagall. So yes, I think we need a public option including heavy sponsoring of small free clinics and encouraging more institutions like the Cleveland Clinic, Billings Clinic and Mayo Clinic.

    And thank you for the response. I was being serious, not snarky.
  • epearson
    As Democrats of the Democratic Party, we join together in seeking reform within the Democratic Party.

    Many Democrats already know their elected representatives within the Democratic Party are no longer following in the time-honored footsteps laid down by the founding fathers of our great Nation. More importantly, we as democrats see our elected representatives within the Democratic Party abandoning the values and principles as set forth within the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

    At the very least, many of our elected representatives within the Democratic Party are no longer abiding to the sole reason the Democratic-Republican Party was founded by Thomas Jefferson - "Strong state governments with a weaker federal government."

    This is only the beginning of our problems as Democrats, for many of our elected representatives within the Democratic Party have clearly set their own agendas over the members of the Democratic Party, our Nation, and the American people. Overall, many of them no longer think of themselves as being our elected representatives, and now refer to themselves as leaders in the true form of tyrants.

    Most Democrats already know their pleas are only being answered by repeated insult and injury by their elected representatives within the Democratic Party. Despite this, we as Democrats can restore control of the Democratic Party back to the party members. All we need to do is cut off donations to the local, state, and national headquarters of the Democratic Party, and to make sure the donations are made directly to worthy and honorable Democratic Party candidates.

    So spread the message to everyone of our fellow Democrats, for the Democrat members are taking back control of the Democratic Party. Also, please don't forget to contact and request the Unions and other outside contributors to follow our lead as patriotic Americans. Thank you!

    Web site: http://www.democraticreformparty.com
  • Epearson,

    I just checked out the website you reccommended as well as the blog that is attached to it. It does a good job of pointing out how the Democratic Party has strayed from its Jeffersonian root.

    Unfortunately, it also 1) claims that Obama was born in Kenya and is not a U.S. citizen, 2) Repeats the Barack Hussein Obama meme, and 3) presents a rather biased comparison of Democrats vs. Republicans that basically defends the Republican Party's position on every single policy.

    So you might be able understand my concern that your website isn't all that genuine about reforming the Democratic Party.

    Yes, it would be nice if the Democratic Party would return to its classical liberal, Jeffersonian roots. Unfortunately, your website would rather have them adopt the Republican Party's platform (which is neither classically liberal or Jeffersonian).






  • DLS
    J. Davis: You certainly have invited skirmishes initiated again, as usual, from the lefty Civil Warriors.

    Sadly, it's not limited to kids here, but includes kids currently in government, who are so impatient and imperious they even feel the need to pick on one media source that doesn't parrot their political views or worship them suitably...
  • DLS
    " If they do it right, the Cap and Trade nonsense will no longer be needed."

    They're afraid to pass a tax on energy (fuels) before the elections, and they prefer to meddle, become intermediaries (perhaps to benefit financially from this, too -- don't be surprised if they do), and to have more power. Cap and Trade means they get to engage in energy rationing.

    Presumably if it could be hyped into another "crisis," they'd love an excuse for water or food rationing, too.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Unfettered 2nd Amendment: Whatever is necessary to maintain a strong militia. Militia here does not mean National Guard (that's federally funded). A militia is a general population armed for war and at the ready until the state calls. As was the case in the 1700's, if the army had it, the militias had it.

    And you shouldn't talk about horror stories about fruitcakes with weapons performing terrorist acts (and they are terrorist acts) to support your belief in an unarmed public. As was with the case of the black honor student murdered in Chicago by being beaten to death with a board. Are we thinking about outlawing boards?

    You must severely, and I mean severely, punish anyone who commits a crime with a weapon. I have never done so, so please don't believe that I am dangerous because I am heavily armed. I am not. I am a law abiding citizen who excercises his 2nd Amendment rights. The aim should be to keep arms out of the hands of criminals, not out of the hands of those that obey the law.

    And I totally agree with the free clinics. Bravo! I'm onboard. Regulation may, indeed, be circumvented; but as was the case in Teddy Roosevelt's time; regulate and break up the mega-monopolies. Yes, it will return after a time....Then, just do it again; and keep doing it. Allowing a forced government program to replace private enterprise is still not a good idea, IMHO. Do the Teddy Roosevelt maneuver again. It will make a huge difference in what people pay.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Amen on the energy independence, brother. I'm all for green and renewable energy. I always have been.
    I just take offense when they use coerced science to further their agenda. As I've stated previously, I've seen the research and done much of it myself. The cyclic nature of the earth and sun bring warm and cool periods in a predictable pattern. The next apex (ironically enough to the Mayan calendar) is in December 2012. Look for some unique solar and climatological activity then. Should be fun.

    I prefer weening off of fossil fuels vice total immediate switchover that the lefists prefer. We have so much natural gas (that is cleaner than gasoline) and ways to clean what we have until the green tide is perfected. I believe it was "Pickens Plan" wasn't it? It makes sense. Anyone who doesn't think our national security is directly tied to our dependence on petroleum is not being honest with themselves.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I agree with the cyclical nature but am greatly concerned since this is a time when we are supposed to be cooler and are still warming. As for the science I go with the largest percentage of climatologists since I am not an expert, but to be honest and a bit cruel the US with a few exceptions will not get hit with the worst of it, Africa, South America and Australia will(the south west US will be a dust bowl but they already have water issues they should be thinking about when planning where to move too).

    My concern is about the acidity of our oceans which is linked and the fact that we live in a bubble meaning earth. If you pump in chemicals after sealing tight a fish tank some chemicals will leak out like on the earth but the remainder will stay in our environment, the only valid question is what does that mean and how fast will it happen and I believe we are seeing many of those effects now though in a mild way. The reason they are mild is because of global dimming caused by the fossil fuels we have burnt in the past that have yet to dissipate or reach the earths surface which makes the planet a bit like a smoky bar room which has made the effects mild but they are still moving at an incredible rate. My fear is the acidity rise in our oceans though and it is not being discussed much yet because it is some scary shit. Forgive me my ocean ignorance but I think you will get the jive of what I am saying but actually know the terminology which I do not. The ocean conveyor that cycles through the seas is fed through in layers and it cycles over time. We are currently seeing the water from the WWII era come to the surface and it has greatly higher acidity than in previously tested samples. It is already eating reefs and causing ocean changes which is why the jelly fish are exploding in population currently while other fish decline. The problem is this is caused by co2 in our air slowly getting into the oceans and our waste products and if we are looking at the 1940's the pollution levels only rise from there. I will not go further because I have already probably said something wrong but look into it I think you would enjoy the research from your interest in the topic in general plus the Navy background, to be honest that is the stuff that scares the living hell out of me, that is why I think we will need to find a way to reverse it either way since I think we have gone well past tipping point in it though we will not feel the full effects for another 5 or so years probably(on the global warming side the ocean thing I think will take longer to scare people but it should now).

    We will baby step it we have no choice, this is a huge undertaking and the tech is largely new. Geothermal which is about the best thing since sliced bread but is still an infant and not yet ready for prime time(I am a tech geek) but we now have the batteries and the solar, wind, wave, nuclear tech is ready now as are electric vehicles for all but long haul drivers.

    The problem is getting the tech out and making it affordable when it was actually needed twenty years ago which leads me to my prime concern with the republicans. They are so tied to being the grand oil party that they have no interest in taking their foot off of that pedal even though we have the tech to do so, what I mean is that instead of doubling down on the family fortune it woulda been really sweet if they had invested in the research for our future oil independence because then it would have been ready even faster. He liked us tied to the Saudi royal house though because they are his families benefactors, I am still not sure why Reagan took off the solar panels and doubled down on ME oil the way he did but maybe his VP Bush had something to do with it. Every dime that is spent on oil fuels terrorism in my opinion, that is where we buy it and the Saudi's have the schools and invest in them in other countries that then send them to terrorist academies in Pakistan(a country that Reagan gave nukes to) who then attack our troops and us, the same goes for heroin and anything tied to poppies. We will be forced to do it slowly but we need to have it done yesterday for our planet, ourselves and our nation but we will take our time because we have no choice and it is not even a political thing.

    They can make caps on fuel efficiency until the cows come home once we switch to electric its game over because it no longer matters. They cant mandate you have an electric car but they can give incentives to get one and they will also have to build the infrastructure which will likely take a decade or more. After that you will see carbon taxes that effect gas guzzling cars in any real way but by then most people would have bought electric or converted their car to a hybrid or an electric in some way(how to's on the web :) ) and that is only if we have not found a way to reverse some of the effects which I think we may have. Then you will likely pay a tax to reverse the amount you created which would probably be pretty minimal akin to gas taxes now. I am also not fond of natural gas because I believe in self sufficiency and if in 10 years I can make my own electric at home to power my home and car I am independent, if I cant I am a consumer and dependent. But I have no problem with the natural gas until then though it is not really needed for cars since they will be out starting in 2010 at competitive prices.
  • JeffersonDavis
    Would you believe that I have a degree in that very field. It was my second major.
    That's why I stand up on end every time I hear that agenda being pushed. Like I said, it's not the goal that bothers me in this, it's the path.

    This year, the polar ice caps actually grew and the global AVERAGE temperature decreased. It was the hottest summer in recent history in Seattle and a few other places, but the average global temp dropped. This is the same argument started recently with Al Gore that was caught on tape in Britain. His questioner, Phelim McAleer, is a noted climatologist. I've read his work and he's dead on. I believe he has a movie coming out to counteract Gores. If you simply go and check out the climatology data yourself, it's right there. You don't have to be a climatologist to understand it. It's really amazingly obvious.
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