Jon Kyl Tells Debbie Stabenow He Doesn’t Need Maternity Care…

Kyl had a point. Routine maternity care isn't an insurable risk.

If you've never experienced a time when maternity care wasn't associated with risk, then you simply don't have children. Every pregnancy carries risk. It's only a matter of how much or how little there is.

I'm not even sure what he means by "insurable risk." Pregnant women aren't cars.

Maternity care is a lame item. Yes women will get all upset about it, but tough ladies. If your going to have a baby and be a responsible parent, you should think about providing for the result of your decision to have sex. Your company or the taxpayer should not be responsible for paying for that decision, you should be. If you can't do this, you have no business raising a child. In the case of rape, however, I'm not opossed as it was not your decision that got you pregnant.

Own up to your own responsibility. .

Hmmm..lol..

So then either you're in favor of providing abortions for the roughly 1/2 unplanned pregnancies of all total pregnancies each year in the US for those people unable to afford maternity care, or you're going to provide care for those unborn children. Child abuse and neglect starts in the womb. Are you advocating child abuse Leonidas? Lack of prenatal care is the #1 cause of stillborns and trauma for newborn infants.

You're all heart.

Apparently it's not just the women who will take the hit for your apathic view of human health.

If I was a woman who was denied prenatal care by my insurer and my baby died or was born sick as a result of lack of prenatal care, I would sue that insurance company for the maximum allowed award...and get it too with a good attorney..

I'm not even sure what he means by "insurable risk."

From wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurable_risk

An insurable risk is a risk that meets the ideal criteria for efficient insurance. The concept of insurable risk underlies nearly all insurance decisions.

For a risk to be insurable, several things need to be true:
<snip>
The loss should be random in nature, else the insured may engage in adverse selection.
-----------------

Pregnancy really isn't random.

So then either you're in favor of providing abortions for the roughly 1/2 unplanned pregnancies of all total pregnancies each year in the US for those people unable to afford maternity care, or you're going to provide care for those unborn children

No, I'm for forcing people to deal with the consequences of their voluntary choice to have unprotected sex,

Apparently it's not just the women who will take the hit for your apathic view of human health.,

Oh certainly not, irresponsible fathers will too unless they are total deadbeats and run away.

POST Edited by Leonidas. I have strong feelings on the issue but was much too controversial in my tone. I have edited those comments and offer an apology to anyone who was taken aback by them.

I am speechless.

No, I'm for forcing people to deal with the consequences of their voluntary choice to have unprotected sex, and not force the cost of their irresponsible decision making if they can't afford to cope with it on the rest of us.

What a foolish and uninformed thing to believe. You are paying regardless, Leonidas. You have no choice. However, with the system of private insurance we have now, you pay a lot more than you would pay if your taxes helped fund a single-payer universal health care system like every other country in the world has. You pay in higher premiums and deductibles, and you pay in other ways, too. If you live in a country with other people, and you don't live alone in a cave somewhere, you pay both the economic and social costs incurred when other people do not have what they need.

No one can change your heart, but maybe if you start thinking rationally, with your mind on your pocketbook and not your misguided moral judgments, you could someday begin to realize that you pay when millions of others don't have work, or food, or a place to live, or affordable medical care. You can say you're not going to pay for other people's mistakes until you're blue in the face and/or until the end of your days on earth, but you *are* paying, whether you think you are or not, whether you like it or not. The only choice you have control over is whether you pay at the back end or the front end, and thus whether you pay more or less.

And to those babies born with any issues or who die in infancy due to their mothers not receiving basic prenatal care... Tough. You should have thought of that before you were conceived by your married parents with middle-class jobs. Insurance companies shouldn't have to pay for things like routine doctor visits, prescriptions, and hospital care just because your mother was a WOMAN and because things like reproduction are part of a normal human life cycle. If God wanted women to have babies, he'd have made it so that men could have them, too.

I'm with kathy here; not quite speechless, but wondering where the soul is in all this, and seeing that the idea is being built for a soul-less and all men are islands unto themselves... kind of culture.

It seems the logical conclusion is, for those who want to contribute nothing to people bringing the future into the world, that is, children, that those withholders then ought to have to build your own private roads, buy your own snow plow and pay it off, plow the roads in white out storms yourself, learn to weld to repair the plows, repave the road bed every year, buy all the equip to do it, if your bank will trust you which it probably wont since youre now leveraged to the hilt and are hauling your own garbage to your own landfill you have to buy... and you are filling all potholes weekly, stuffing them with all the dollar bills you saved by not sharing to shelter even a little bit, the vulnerable. But in your world, no one will help you, not one bit. Too bad Charlie.

You start out bravely enough, though deluded... until that is, until you run out of money, which will be quickly. And no one, in the world you set up yourself, will help you then. Aftter all, youre the captain of your own delusion.


Oh and in your world, you very birth will have to be rescinded and you returned to the ether, for your mother, shame on her, used up public funds just traveling the public tarmac getting to the hospital to have you, not to mention the hospital subsidies from the government for research to keep babies like y ou alive, or the goverment requirements that silver nitrate be put in your eyes immediately so you dont become a blind baby. She stole from others when she should have gone for a chemistry degree and disovered through funding her own research for years how to keep newborns sighted...

and oh, yes, your mother will need to be paying back the cost of the visits of the extension nurse who comes to teach your mother to nurse her child and encourages her,

and also, no formula or baby food for you goo goo, for the USDA and FDA have a part in that those things are safe... and in your world no baby ought have any of these. You'll just have to eat whatever your mother can grow on the window sill for the rest of your life...

and even now, just look at how you yourself have already spent years scamming the taxpayers, you big greedy baby you, using their roadways, public facilities, medicines, OTCs, research money to make your life TERRIFIC.. all the while mouthing that no one should help anyone, while you take the goods on the sly daily.

man.

" I'm for forcing people to deal with the consequences of their voluntary choice to have unprotected sex"

No, you mean you're for forcing WOMEN to deal with those consequences.

"Maternity care is a lame item."

Not only sexist, but ablist as well. Charming. You're quite a peach.

"If you can't do this, you have no business raising a child."

Thank you, oh arbiter of who is and is not capable of raising a child.

"In the case of rape, however, I'm not opossed as it was not your decision that got you pregnant."

Oh, thank you, master of all. I'm glad you're not opposed.

"Yes women will get all upset about it, but tough ladies."

Screw you, half the population! Stop acting like your medical needs matter!

"Child abuse starts with making irresponsible decisions to spread your legs if you can't deal with the consequences."

Also, you make me ill.

"How many poor mothers have your [sic] given your time or money to help?"

Plenty, since you've asked.

"irresponsible fathers will to unless they are total deadbeats and run away"

Of course, there's no other person involved...oh! maybe the baby?

"Don't expect me to be happy to pay for YOUR descision to hike up YOUR dress, or hike up someone else's."

Um...or your mom's decision to hike up her dress. Or possibly your wife's. Also: I truly hope this disgusting display of mysogyny makes the mods of the site realize that you do not deserve a place writing articles here. This is truly, truly gross.

However, before the disgusting derail of the thread, I do have to say that this is the awesomest ever use of the classic "your mom" pwn.

Pregnancy and childbirth are risky conditions; women have died of them in the past, they are dying of them now and more will die in the future. Pregnancy without prenatal care is even more risky for mother and child both. And this care is expensive in the USA.

Therefore, I think that every American woman should take Leonidas's words to heart and forgo having sex so they won't ever risk having children. They should explain to their husbands and boyfriends why they are no longer "putting out." I'm sure the men in their lives will respect their wishes not to be a drain on the public coffers.

(Comment moved from other thread)

Leonidas, from another thread:

I'm on the right, albeit the moderate right

That's a knee slapper.

Leo

This is exactly why we need universal health care. You're clearly in need of a heart AND brain transplant.

and even now, just look at how you yourself have already spent years scamming the taxpayers, you big greedy baby you, using their roadways, public facilities, medicines, OTCs, research money to make your life TERRIFIC.. all the while mouthing that no one should help anyone, while you take the goods on the sly daily.

Hear, hear!!!!

***Standing Ovation***

I wonder if Kyl's own insurance covers any kind of preventative care?

And this...is why you have no credibility. Why anyone should pay one whit of attention to you or any of your postings after this, I have no idea.

You, sir have no heart, no brain and no business in any kind of civilized conversation.

Dear Leonidas: Vulgar talk about women hiking up their dresses and spreading their legs, etc. will stop now. The commenting rules, I believe you know fully. Make your points without resorting to such. A reminder also, long rambling comments that are off topic and/or that break up the flow of others people's comments will be edited or deleted. It's prefered you self-edit like other commenters here do, as a courtesy to each other.

I can see you often put a lot of 'returns' after your paragraphs; if you tighten those after you've made a blockquote, it will shorten the space taken up, too.

Thanks
Dr.e
TMV deputy managing editor

That Leonidas has taken this position does not surprise me. He has moved rather definitively from being center right to the extremist right. What does surpirse me is the visciousness of his attacks on women. That part isn't center right or even extremist right, it's abusive.

"Routine maternity care isn't an insurable risk."

Part of the problem here is that so many still call "insurance" what instead is comprehensive, pre-paid medical care. It's not insurance, for Christ's sake! arrgh

The other problem is that we have to assign priorities to what we will pay for if we have public health care or pre-paid care, and judge them on a cost-effective basis. So much preventive and routine care is not cost-effective; reality shatters the dreams of the naive, idealistic, or demanding kids time after time in this regard. As to the specifics, "maternity care" [sic; pre-natal care], even Republicans such as Pete Wilson (governor of California) have argued in favor of pre-natal care, because of its effect on child development and future expenses (especially with premature or drug-damaged or otherwise harmed babies).

Libs, someday, get rid of the immature fuming and the tantrums and approach the subject intelligently!

"He has moved rather definitively from being center right to the extremist right. "

This has never been true. Of course, this site often has been so grossly distorted so much to the left that anybody to the right of Barbara Boxer, even non-mushy moderates such as I, can be mislabeled "far right" [sic], just as the "progressive" author of one book I own places the Dem leadership right of center, and Reagan and Thatcher naturally "far right" [sic].

Leo is in no way, has never been, extreme. That is a fact.

Leo -- much of the childishness you are being subjected to on this thread indeed has to do with not only personal responsibility, but with judgment and the [gasp] notions of right and wrong. The example in a book (by a realistic Democrat!) I recall immediately is this: "It may be politically incorrect, and offend [the childish] to say so, but part of the problem with the entitlement programs and associated mentality we're seeing now is what should be obvious: A sixteen-year-old gang member and his pregnant fourteen-year-old girlfriend have chosen to engage in grossly irresponsible behavior."

The rest of what you see here amount mainly to mere variations on the same theme (childishness and the entitlement mentality that results in ridiculous anger and even outrage on encountering negative judgment or merely the word "no").

"If you can't do this, you have no business raising a child."

Leo, a postscript -- my Vietnamese-boat-person friend in Los Angeles worked for a time as an unemployment counselor. Yes, she got angry and said the same thing you did when a client would come in for an appointment (assuming it was kept!) and announce she was having another child.

She burned out quickly on that job (and on such people and their irresponsibility).

"Leo is in no way, has never been, extreme."

Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon feeling among men that women should be punished for having sex by having every one of their options taken away, while also being given a million daily clues that they are worthy only for how they can please a man. Those who have pathological hate for women don't think women should have the option of birth control, abortion, and now, evidently, they don't even want them to have the ability to correctly care for themselves or the child in the womb. So while I do think that it's extreme to have such a disgust for the humanity of half the population, it's not necessarily uncommon among the other half.

Leo is in no way, has never been, extreme. That is a fact

Neither you nor Leonidas have a very tight grasp on the concept of what a fact is. Facts are not an internal phenomenon, they're external and outside of your (and my) control.

From your comment the "facts" being discussed in this thread have obviously gone way over your head and therefore you just reverted (as usual) to a three post disjointed, disconnected tirade that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

roro80 wrote: "Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon feeling among men that women should be punished for having sex by having every one of their options taken away..."

It's obvious that there are some men that feel this way, we've certainly been exposed to it in this thread, but I don't think it's a "common" attitude... At least I hope not because it's hateful, harmful and just plain stupid.

Thanks, DLS, for your thoughts. You and Leonidas have done the rest of the community here a huge service.

You have completely exposed your true, inner selves for all to see. And, fellas, it ain't pretty.

In one fell swoop you have both managed, with typical boorishness and disregard for the rest of the human race, to peel back the thin veneer of rationality in which you couch your thoughts on this board.

To the people of good faith who still reside here and feel it to be a place worthy of precious time: ignore these buffoons. They have definitively shown themselves to be unworthy of debate, reasoned argument or human interaction.

DLS, you seem to complain a great deal about "childishness," yet simultaneously essentially devote an entire post to a tantrum. Interesting, if not amusing.

EDIT: Yeah, I can finally post. I'm curious, what does a "point" mean? I had zero comments but one point.

As to the topic at hand, it certainly feels seems boorish of Sen. Kyl to suggest maternity care be eliminated from the bill. I’d be curious if Sen. Kyl would feel the same if Sen. Stabenow suggested prostate cancer be striped from the bill using similar logic.

Who were the 9? I understand why everyone is tearing into Leo and DLS, but what about those 9 elected officials that voted for the amendment?

dear Leonidas. . .

"Maternity care is a lame item. Yes women will get all upset about it, but tough ladies. If your going to have a baby and be a responsible parent, you should think about providing for the result of your decision to have sex. Your company or the taxpayer should not be responsible for paying for that decision, you should be. If you can't do this, you have no business raising a child. In the case of rape, however, I'm not opossed as it was not your decision that got you pregnant. Own up to your own responsibility. ."

Truly this is an incredulous comment . . .you make the issue of pregnancy about women. . .have you forgotten that having babies involves as many men as women?. . .

Leonidas it appears you have hastily speed over false ground on this issue and the mental engine has out distanced both the heart and soul. . . .just a suggestion. . . ask the question; where is my heart and where is my soul on this issue. . .and when you have learned to respect your heart you will find respect. . .

Leonidas if you want women to own up to our responsibility, then would it be fair to ask you to be integral to your own being? (speaking this with a soft voice)

Leonidas you might consider an apology ? You think?

Fellow commentators,

I hereby offer a formal apology for the tone of my post. It is an area which I have some strong feelings about but that does not excuse the tone of my comments. They were more controversial than need be and I didn't think them through nearly so much as I should have. I think my position could have been expressed much better in terms that would not have been so shocking, but due to my poor decision I've lost that opportunity and wont try to go back and rephrase, I simply do not deserve to do so. I hope not to repeat such an action, and I have gone back and edited my comments (apologies again if I missed something that also should have been removed) If I should you have every right to call me on it and I appreciate you doing so. It helps to make me a better person.

I don't think I'm a bad person, I do think I feel strongly on the issue and let my passion intrude upon my manners. I hope you will accept the apology, but I can understand if you don't. I do not ask you to excuse my words, you certainly should not, that is something only future more controlled comments will suffice for and hopefully show that that I am indeed sorry for this episode.

I leave forgiveness at your discretion.

Leonidas -

Not being a woman, it is not my place to accept or not accept your apology. I do however acknowledge that you took responsibility, aplogized and took some corrective action.

You asked for further comment on what remains of your remarks. Said in a calm and constructive manner: your first comment still includes the phrase "tough ladies" and the sentence that follows talks about taking responsibility for the decision to have sex only in the context of women. You might want to think about those parts of that comment.

Leonidas, two times in three days on different threads I have called you out for making radical comments. Please give that some thought and ask if that is really where you want to be, or at least whether that is how you want to be viewed. A more measured approach, consistently and over a period of time, may get you past this, but continued resorts to radicalism will only cement the impressions left by what happened here. Think about it, please.

tidbits

Thanks Leonidas for the sincere apology. . . and truly you are not a bad person and i too have made comments that once i thought about them knew they where over the edge and have gone back and removed. . . look forward to reading your comments Leonidas. . . Don't be too hard on yourself. . .

You asked for further comment on what remains of your remarks. Said in a calm and constructive manner: your first comment still includes the phrase "tough ladies" and the sentence that follows talks about taking responsibility for the decision to have sex only in the context of women. You might want to think about those parts of that comment.

I actually did want to edit that as well, but there was no edit button at the bottom of that post so was unable to. I would like to edit that if the button should reappear as an option. I hope that explains the lack.

Don't be too hard on yourself. . .

Appreciate the sentiment, but my fear is actually the opposite that I will not be hard enough on myself. Honest introspection is called for, its too easy to make excuses for letting ourselves off. I pride myself on taking personal responsibility and I was a hypocrite and did not think to take responsibility for my posting tone until after the fact. This self-proclaimed "self-responsible" person needed the help of others to see his error. Hardly self-responsible, LOL.

I do appreciate the guidance however for you all. It speaks well of you.

Could someone please explain to me how one is able to place a quote in the gray block?

You place the word "blockquote" between the greater than/less than backets <> at the beginning of the selectetion and "/blockquote" between the same at the end of it.

Leonidas, While I think this was a valiant effort at an apology, I'm much more offended by the idea that women are sluts who need to be punished for having sex than the tone in which you said it. Vulgarity doesn't necessarily get under my skin; being thought of as less-than or unworthy of the same rights men enjoy most certainly does.

Leonidas, While I think this was a valiant effort at an apology, I'm much more offended by the idea that women are sluts who need to be punished for having sex than the tone in which you said it. Vulgarity doesn't necessarily get under my skin; being thought of as less-than or unworthy of the same rights men enjoy most certainly does.

Again apologies for the tone, but that was not the thought I was trying to convey. I was trying to suggest (and did a horrible job at doing so) the idea that companies or other insurers should not be forced into providing maturnity coverage for no additional charge to the premium. I am not oppossed to maturnity care being covered with an additional premium. I feel that without this extra premium, this drives up the cost of insurance for both men and women who do not chose to have children. I do not see forcing this as only benefitting mothers but also fathers at the expense of those not having children. I am not opposed to companies and private insurers voluntarily offering coverage at no additional costs, they are free to run their business as they best see fit. I'm just against forcing it. I don't want to rehash this as and I'm not going to pursue it further, but that idea (as stupid as it may be) is what I was trying to express. I wont discuss this any further as enough damage has been done so to speak, I will only issue apologies from here on out. Again it was poorly and crudely expressed and I am deeply sorry.

Thanks for the apology. I don't know if I'll ever agree with you on your posts or comments, but it speaks well of you that you recognized you were over the line (as I have been on occasion when I get worked up), and you apologized for it.

Thanks greendreams, sympathy I neither need, nor deserve, but empathy like that makes me smile.

I guess I don't have any problem with someone having these views, but I hope you can understand that it's hard for me to believe these views to be purely a matter of policy after all the vitriol. I've too many times seen fully logical arguments given about pure policy issues like abortion, affirmative action, contraception, urban development, etc, only to have the people making those arguments turn around in another moment with highly offensive sexist/racist/etc screeds, not unlike the one you gave earlier.

For me, it's all about forgive but don't forget. So while I -- like others here -- do certainly forgive you, and am grateful for the apology, I'm going to have a hard time believing that your opinions on anything involving women's rights are driven by sound logical policy considerations.