An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right

« Any Man’s Death Diminishes Me

The Executioner’s Tale »

CNN’s Sanchez, ABC’s Trapper and CBS to FOX News: You Lie

Posted by JOE GANDELMAN, Editor-In-Chief in Media, Politics.
Sep 19th, 2009 | Comments

Anyone who has worked in the media knows about a “fatal” in a story: it’s an error so big that if it isn’t corrected fast and prominently, it can discredit the info-outlet that carries it. This is the kind of error newspapers correct on the front page (versus some of the bigger ones buried inside). Fox News — the network that says it provides fair and accurate reporting — is now being blasted by CNN’s Rick Sanchez, ABC’s Jake Trapper and CBS News for an ad that they say contains a huge …fatal.

Watch Sanchez’s report below. As Sanchez has done in the past, he replies to an allegation by showing a batch of clips that makes the case that the assertion is…a fatal. One of the quotes he shows is even from that famous liberal and noted CNN booster Bill O’Reilly — Fox News’ cash cow and one of its hottest properties. O’Reilly is also highly competitive and often critical of MSNBC and CNN. Watch this in full:

And Trapper? The Politico:

Jake Tapper, on Twitter this morning, took issue with a Fox News ad in today’s Washington Post, that he says is “asserting that every other channel ‘missed’ the story of the 912 march. Demonstrably untrue.”

He pointed out that Yunji de Nies, his ABC colleague at the White House, covered last weekend’s protest.

But even that wasn’t enough for some, and after a back and forth on Twitter, Tapper wrote that it was his “last tweet defending a fact.”

“To the non-reality based community, have a great day and nice weekend,” he wrote.

UPDATE: The ad — now added above — isn’t just false when it comes to ABC, but other networks, too. It should be noted that CNN sent more than a dozen personnel to the event, including deputy political director Paul Steinhauser, Jim Spellman, and Lisa Desjardins (whose appearance in front of shouting protesters made the rounds on YouTube since Saturday). NBC and CBS were also on hand to cover the event.

So Tapper was right to call the Fox ad “demonstrably untrue” — which it is if you’re talking about physically being there. Nevertheless, Michael Tammero, Fox’s VP of Marketing explains to TVNewser: “Generally speaking, it’s fair to say that from the tea party movement … to Acorn … to the march on 9/12, the networks either ignored the story, marginalized it or misrepresented the significance of it altogether.”

And the Politico has a statement from CBS that also says Fox News committed….a…fatal since CBS “had multiple crews on site with our Congressional Correspondent Nancy Cordes reporting. It was the lead story on the CBS EVENING NEWS; CBS Radio News provided hourly reports and CBSNews.com had the story in its rotating lead all day. They also processed the Nancy Cordes video and linked it throughout the site.”

Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post, one of the papers that ran the ad, has an extensive story about this controversy. He writes:

The ad appeared Friday in the Wall Street Journal and New York Post, both owned by Fox’s parent company, and in The Washington Post.

ABC spokesman Jeffrey Schneider described the ad as “outrageous and false.” NBC spokeswoman Lauren Kapp said that “the facts . . . prove it wrong.” CNN spokeswoman Edie Emery called the ad “blatantly false.”

Fox News provided more coverage than other news outlets in the run-up to what Beck branded the “9/12″ protests, but the other networks hardly ignored the story. ABC, for instance, covered it Saturday and Sunday on “Good Morning America” and Sunday on “World News,” along with extensive reports by ABC Radio and the network’s Web site. NBC covered it Saturday on “Nightly News” and the next morning on “Today.” CBS covered it on the “Evening News.” CNN covered the Saturday protests during the 10 a.m., 11 a.m., 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. hours, as well as on other programs afterward. Correspondents such as NBC’s Tom Costello, ABC’s Kate Snow and CBS’s Nancy Cordes were involved in the coverage.

Fox’s view is that the ad refers to the other networks’ missing the larger story, not failing to cover the demonstration itself — although the photos suggest that the headline refers to the protest. “Generally speaking,” Michael Tammero, Fox News’s vice president of marketing, said in a statement, “it’s fair to say that from the tea party movement . . . to ACORN . . . to the march on 9/12, the networks either ignored the story, marginalized it or misrepresented the significance of it altogether.”

There is no evidence that The Post asked Fox for any substantiation. Ken Babby, Washington Post Media’s vice president for advertising, declined to be interviewed.

Read it in full. The fact that the Post is covering it and the sentence:”There is no evidence that The Post asked Fox for any substantiation. Ken Babby, Washington Post Media’s vice president for advertising, declined to be interviewed” suggests that this did not turn out to be just another ad. Kurtz also quotes the Post’s spokeswoman as defending the ad, saying it was Fox News’ opinion of how it covered the story compared to its competitors.

But ABC doesn’t see it as that simple:

ABC’s Schneider, however, told the newspaper in a letter that The Post exercised “zero due diligence” in assessing the truth of the ad and that it “should have been rejected according to your professed standards. Now the Post should make it right by apologizing quickly and recognizing that it made a grave error that tarnishes the reputation of five other news organizations.”

Some thoughts:

Fox News maven Roger Ailes is a smart newsman and a media genius. But this ad is a serious misstep, given the reason why Fox News was purportedly created. Conservatives and Republicans felt shut out by the mainstream media, which they felt reported news coming from a series of liberal assumptions and blatant biases. This ad now gives plenty of ammunition to those who believe or argue that Fox News has morphed into exactly what it alleged about the liberal media. To all but its fans who love Sean Hannity’s show, it has become what it alleged the liberal media was.

Trapper’s experience on Twitter is telling. This specific incident aside, the bottom line is that there are some partisans who will say a fact is not a fact if they don’t want it to be a fact. They will brush aside Sanchez, and Trapper and CBS and either go on the attack against those who point to these denials (the best defense is a good offense) or try and change the subject (but CNN didn’t cover X story and Fox did). And they will pick up Fox’ explanation.

The Fox comment to Kurtz suggests that the network seeks to be what the New York Times used to be to the mainstream media: its de facto assignment editor. Once upon a time, in the mid to late 20th century, newspapers throughout the country and old-fashioned network news editors made their things-to-cover lists based on what the Times had on its front page. The subtext of the Fox argument now is that if the other networks don’t cover issues the way it does or the same issues, then it’s due to some kind of political bias versus the fact that news editors sometimes make different news judgments. Or it means that by not matching what Fox covers and the way it covers it, its competition is not covering it at all — even if they do cover it. (Get it?)

Sanchez is correct about Fox. Its coverage and talk shows are now dominated by an “us versus them” undercurrent. Whether intentionally or not, the network seems to be operating on a conclusion that by offering resentment-based coverage laced with lots of hot political talk peppered with rage and anger, it can garner a huge audience. And, it appears, that strategy is working.

Fox News has some excellent news professionals — as do all of the other networks. This ad was a disservice to those news pros at Fox, because it made their network look like an operation inaccurately attacking opponents and then trying to split verbal hairs to justify and ad that was neither accurate, nor fair or balanced.

UPDATE:
– From Variety’s Wilshire and Washington blog:

CNN anchor Rick Sanchez took on Fox News after the network ran an ad in the Washington Post today with a picture of last weekend’s 9/12 protests on Capitol Hill and the headline, “How did ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN miss this story.”

In fact, the broadcast news networks and CNN did cover the event, but Sanchez is by far the most vocal, taking on a tone of indignation at the CNN competitor.

In a tone that had shades of Olbermann, “I am not going to sit here in silence and allow my craft and my news operation to be unfairly maligned, because enough is enough. And yes, I am talking about you Fox News, you who claim to be fair and balanced. At what, I wonder?”

….Few other recent events seem to have stirred such a challenge over basic facts, starting with the original contention that the event drew up to 2 million, quickly challenged and even corrected to a fraction of that.

–TV Newser

Today, Fox News took out a full page ad in the Washington Post as well as the News Corp.-owned Wall Street Journal and New York Post asking, “How did ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN Miss This Story?”

Well, those other networks were there.

And TV Newser packs its post with data about how — despite the fair and balanced network’s assertions, — the other networks were there and didn’t just pay lip service to story. Here’s just one of the sections:

NBC News had crews on the mall and correspondent Tom Costello reported live for NBC Nightly News Saturday. A Nightly News spokesperson tells TVNewser, “and more than 5.2 million viewers watched our coverage.” It was Weekend Nightly’s best Total Viewer delivery since April. MSNBC covered the gathering Saturday morning getting live shots from a reporter from NBC-owned WRC-TV.

ABC News was there too with reports for Good Morning America Saturday and Sunday. Kate Snow interviewed GOP Sen. Jim DeMint who was a speaker at the rally. ABCNews.com even had to correct a report about the number of attendees which was erroneously attributed to the network. Matt Kibbe of FreedomWorks, the organizer of the event, made that claim. He would later say, “I regret misrepresenting the network as [ABC's] coverage that day was fair and honest.” And from NoonET Saturday to NoonET Sunday, ABC News Radio referenced the rally in 69 separate newscasts.

Read it in full.

Ads by Project Wonderful! Your ad here, right now: $0

daveinboca

There's a photo of the 9/12 event taken from the top of the Capitol by Michael Beck that speaks around half-a-million to 700,000 attendees. Tapper & others tried to debunk other photos by saying they had black faces and represented The Million Man March led by Obama's fave spiritual leader. But you'll notice a lot of white ladies in baseball caps and American flags in the linked photo, so I doubt it was the usual scurvy crew. Yeah, it had to be photoshopped because the "Surreal World" types think they are "reality-based." Probably their medications are the only real thing in that mindset.

Plus they cleaned up after themselves, unlike the barnyard manners of the "anti-war" unpatriots.

mlhradio

The medium is the message? The medium is the massage.

Leonidas

Did they cover the event as much as Fox, certainly not, did they miss it, no.

The Ad should have been on the ACORN story instead that the other networks did mostly miss for quite some time.

mlhradio

I'm kinda surprised that the little tea event got as much coverage as it did. After all, the reputable-reported turnout was much smaller than expected (under a hundred thousand) and by all appearances it was somewhat of a flop of an event. I know the various news media outlets feel they have to have "balanced" coverage, but bending over backwards to spend so much covering such a minor, inconsequential event is going a little too far.

DesertCactus

"Having attended a numer of sold out U of M football games, I was amazed to see so many more than the 105,000 people the stadium held when I attended. A local policeman who has worked D.C. a number of years said that we were the nicest crowd he had ever worked. He estimated that there were over a million people there. So I was really pumped up to find out what was on TV about this momentous event. I called my family back in California - at 12:00 Noon E.T. There was little or nothing on about the event. I was amazed. This was ground breaking. I went back to the hotel after the 9-12 March and was Amazed that there was almost nothing on about the event except for Genn Beck later in the evening in a repeat. It was very depressing to read the next day in the press that there were 60 to 70 thousand at the event by some "unnamed" source at the D.C. Fire Department. We had seen with our own eyes hundreds of thousands of people and then read and heard 60 to 70 K. The question came to many of us like a slap in the face: If they lie to us who were there and saw with our very own eyes, in this city, what the Hel# do they lie to use about that we don't see?"

this comment has been edited for length. You are welcome DesertCactus to post a couple paragraphs of your article you've written elsewhere and then supply the link, which I've done for you here: http://palmspringsteaparty.ning.com/profiles/bl...

thanks,
TMV editor

DesertCactus

It's obvious you were not in D.C. Never in my lifetime have I seen so many people. You just can't imagine what it is like to stand at the front of them, hearing them all raise their voice at the same time. There was electricity in the air. The people were all respectful, especially to the elderly, and so were the police. As we left the event, we thanked them for keeping everyone safe. There was not one arrest and there were at least a million people, or very close, there. You would only be able to understand it if you looked out and every place was taken and the people were standing up the streets leading to the Capitol because there was no place to stand. Many people could not get into the city because the roads were so packed.
People were still coming into the afternoon, who had driven for hours. It was a friendly group and everyone was in a festive and friendly mood. Only some of the press were somewhat booed because people are on to them now - no matter what they say in front of the camera. CNN did have one of the better cover ages I only wish that I could see tapes of all the channels. Some did absolutely nothing, but I don't expect them to last long-term. Their audience is becoming a fringe group. I speak of MSNBC. I watch all the channels each day. They are listed in a matrix of 8 cable news channels. I can move around in the matrix to get the sound on each one. This is on Direct TV, which many readers will have and understand. I have to say that I never get any news out of MSNBC but they are better than Saturday Night Live in making me laugh. It makes the day fun because news can get a little depressing. I doubt they will last long-term though. They have just become ding dong over there.

EEllis

Sanchez who? Really tho it's marketing. Fox does it of course but thern so does CNN and for gods sake NBC and the rest. They make (fox) a point that they are covering the events differently than the other networks. Indepth reporting vs. 30 sec blurbs. It's a fair statment for an advertisment.

redbus

How would a news organization guarantee balance? Would it screen its employees prior to hiring them, give them a one-hundred point questionnaire on their political views, including what party they belonged to? I suspect that if such a questionnaire was done, Fox would have 99% Republicans, MSNBC 98% Democrats, and CNN probably 80% Dem and 20% Republican. So of course their political views affect how they "see" the world, including the Tea Party movement.

tagimaucia

The 9/12 protest actually got an unprecedented amount of coverage for how few people were there. There were multiple anti-war protests in the US over the last 7-8 years with at least 5 times as many people that got a fraction as much airtime (and typically were on something like page A31 of the WaPo and NYTimes, not A1 as this story was with both).

GeorgeSorwell

The photo Dave In Boca is referring to is from the Promise Keepers rally held in 1997.

Lies like this never get debunked because too many people who don't care about the truth want to believe them.

That's why Fox News is still in business.

HemmD

Thanks George for finding what I was looking for. Another "picture" purported to be from the 912 event circulated on many right leaning web sites actually shows a building missing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/14/912-te...

Of course,it's now being circulated that the photo surfaced due to a left wing plant. If you look closely at the photo, you can just make out Obama's fake birth certificate.

Like so much of this protest, the facts tend to be extraneous to the furor.

Father_Time

Fox News is crap. I stopped watching it years ago exactly for the reasons expressed here. Fox is political tabloid TV, a waste of time.

We need objective news in order to form our own opinion, not promotions in support of an existing opinion.

Fox is just fast-food "McNews" for the lazy.

Kastanj

Waaah we don't get more attention liberal media waaaah...

GeorgeSorwell

Publishing this ad is a stroke of genius.

Fox is not in the news business. Fox is in the business of pandering to its audience. Attacks on Fox by the so-called mainstream media only reinforce their audience's loyalty.

There will be no significant consequences for this ad.

daveinboca

And you can prove that how? I think you should read DesertCactus to get an on-site appraisal. I too am a U of M grad and I was at the Vietnam March in the seventies. I wonder why you participate in Groupthink like all the nets and cables except Fox? Or don't you think DesertC's lyin' eyes should be trusted.

You pollute the name of a great man. Unless you are trying to conflate Orwell with Soros, regarded as a criminal in the UK.

daveinboca

You .. ignore the fact that Fox destroyed ACORN, or are you part of the RICO scheme that ACORN and the DNC were trying to foist on the US? Numbers indicate :Fox has more viewers [partly because they allow the opposing viewpoint aired] that all the other primetime combined. So S. is right. When a news operation busts Rev. Wright as Brobambi's "spiritual father" and outs ACORN as a RICO racketeering operation, the heat from agitpreppies .. and the usual suspects will be directed front and center. Brobambi is going to be on five or six news "interviews" this weekend, and I'll bet not one asks about the missile shield debacle or ACORN. He's not going on Fox, because they DO ask tough questions.

The S. Groupthiinkeers [as in Mickey Mouse] want to play pattycake in their own little sandbox. Putin is laughing on his way to bank Brobambi's giveaway in Poland & Czech Republic and if it weren't for Fox, my taxpayer dollars would still be funding ACORN's tax-cheat operation---like Geithner & Daschle & all the other Dems [Rangel comes to mind] who want to tax everyone else and neglect their own IRS obligations.

The real reality-based community watches Fox, and y'all can call yourselves anything you want.

Oh, and thanks for the reality check, DesertCactus.

Davebo

Brobambi is going to be on five or six news "interviews" this weekend, and I'll bet not one asks about the missile shield debacle or ACORN

I'd take that bet if I thought there was a sliver of a chance you would actually honor it.

And "Brobambi"? Are there any conservatives left over the age of 8?

Don Quijote

Misperceptions, the Media and the Iraq War

An in-depth analysis of a series of polls conducted June through September found 48% incorrectly believed that evidence of links between Iraq and al Qaeda have been found, 22% that weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, and 25% that world public opinion favored the US going to war with Iraq. Overall 60% had at least one of these three misperceptions.

Such misperceptions are highly related to support for the war. Among those with none of the misperceptions listed above, only 23% support the war. Among those with one of these misperceptions, 53% support the war, rising to 78% for those who have two of the misperceptions, and to 86% for those with all 3 misperceptions. Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, "While we cannot assert that these misperceptions created the support for going to war with Iraq, it does appear likely that support for the war would be substantially lower if fewer members of the public had these misperceptions."

The frequency of Americans' misperceptions varies significantly depending on their source of news. The percentage of respondents who had one or more of the three misperceptions listed above is shown below.

Misperception Xref with Media Outlet

Fox is not a news organization, it's the Republican Party's propaganda outlet.

T-Steel

Daveinboca, "brobambi"?? Look sir, you can disagree all you want with President Obama. But the whole "I'm going to think of unique, nonsensical slurs to diminish him" angle is just childish. Please cease with that. And I'm well aware of the "bro". Just plain dumb, sir. We'll all adults here (mostly) and I hate being the comment police but c'mon! Brobambi?!?! I think I need to add that phrase to the ban list.

And that is just a general rule to all TMV commenters (who are vastly more civil than many other commenters at other blogs).

TheMagicalSkyFather

Fox is not news, its a propaganda network. It's viewers are conspiracy theorists, they do not accept reality nor do they share our common reality. Much like all conspiracy theorists they refuse to listen to truth nor evidence that disputes their point. In fact this "news" network has just been caught LIEING, again a NEWS network has used a blatant LIE that has been disproven and those who back Fox will not only refuse to hold them responsible, they are now saying that it should have been covered more so they are "kinda" right. There is no kinda right in news, kinda right is called propaganda. Fox and its viewers would be trying to close any organization but themselves that pulled this but instead they choose to move the goal posts and say "well maybe they covered our self created movement but they should have covered it more because now we look even more biased then the media we use as an excuse for our extreme slant on the news." I beg of you please turn them off, please join the rest of your countrymen in reality and leave the propagandists to spin into their own self created graves. Otherwise accept that you are the new version of a truther, because you will not accept reality or evidence either.

Definition of a conspiracy theorist "A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act."

vicb

The following panorama shot has been cited by the right as proof that the mainstream media estimates of 60 to 70 thousand people at the 9/12 march are completely bogus.

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads...

Calling up a Google map of this area might help in spotting streets and landmarks.

What does the panorama actually show? The back of the main body of the crowd is at 3rd St. where two blue buses can be seen. These are easily visible in the center of this crowd picture: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2633/3914299074_...

Traffic is also visible on this road. From that point back to the white tents near the Washington Monument is lots of empty green grass. The white tents were part of another event and people back there had no connection to the 9/12 demonstration. Similarly, in the panorama, the crowd can be seen ending at 3rd Street on both Maryland Ave and Pennsylvania Ave. The sides of the crowd were in the park areas between those two avenues and Independence Ave and Constitution Ave.

The main body of the crowd occupied park areas within Capitol Circle. Not completely though. Green fences can be seen restraining the crowd above the words "prevail" and "to set brush" in the panorama quote. The walkways towards the capitol were also kept clear and the clear path towards Garfield Circle is visible. Lots of cars can be seen parked on Maryland Ave, between the Capitol and 3rd St., and I presume the same was true for Pennsylvania Ave. Above the trees in front of the Museum for the American Indian, lots of green grass is visible. Above the words "keen to" a large space of pavement near Peace Circle is visible. All of this shows that the crowd did not "fill" this entire area.

According to my calculations from the scale on Google maps, the distance from Independence Ave to Constitution Ave is about 1650 feet and the distance from the curved edge of the pavement at the capitol to 3rd St. is about 1250 feet. Within that area is the reflecting pool which is about 350 x 800 feet.

1650 x 1250 = 2,062,500 square feet less 280,000 square feet for the reflecting pool = 1,782,500 square feet. We also need to take out about 102,400 square feet for the Botanical Garden which leaves 1,680,100 square feet. From that we also need to remove a significant amount of space for trees, statues, hedges, gardens, open paths, fenced off areas etc. Let's simplify and assume we have 1,600,000 square feet of "demonstrator space". To get this number I have removed 22,300 square feet less than the area of the Botanical Garden. Given some of the constraints already mentioned, I think I am being very generous.

Some people say we should assume 6 square feet per person in the crowd. Bear in mind, that would be a 2.45 foot square for every person in the crowd.

6 square feet per person gives a crowd of 266,666 people and that would be the very highest end estimate. But, is 6 square feet per person reasonable?

Look at pictures and videos from within the demonstration itself, here:

http://novatownhall.com/2009/09/13/photos-of-9-...

What do we see? Lots and lots of empty pavement space, and lots of people taking up room with their big signs and flags. People are constantly shown, within the demonstration area, easily moving around. They are nowhere near as packed in as the fans in this stadium picture of 100,000+ people.

http://pennstategameday.com/wp-content/uploads/...

At about 3:18 in the second video we see that the police have cordoned off a large pavement area near the Peace Circle that I noted above. I presume it was the same over at Garfield Circle. Once again, we see that assuming the outlined area is packed with people is in error.

This short video shows the crowd density from the reflecting pool to 3rd St.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO4aoXG4vXs

People have actually laid out blankets. Obviously, calculating 6 square feet per person within the demonstration area presumes a crowd density which simply did not exist.

What do we get if allow 24 square feet per person? That would mean a 4.9 foot square per person which seems pretty reasonable given those crowd pictures.

24 square feet per person gives us 66,666 people. That's within the estimated range that most media have adopted.

20 square feet per person (a 4.47 foot square) = 80,000.

16 square feet per person (a 4 foot square) = 100,000.

Oh, and by the way, how much personal space would 1,000,000 demonstrators have had in that area? 1.6 square feet - a 1.26 foot square.

And lastly, if you'd really like to see what a big crowd in that area looks like, try here:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/the_in...

TheMagicalSkyFather

Things like that is why people say that it is race based. It is actually a disagreement colored by insults, since he is of a different race then them they say things like the above that are pretty obviously over the line but then get angry when people point this out. Thank you for calling it out as that is the way to lose the "racial" stink from those that disagree, stop looking that way and police those around you that do to ensure that its actually false. Once it ends and becomes only about policy an actual debate can take place, otherwise those that hate racism are being asked to ignore it and those that are racist are actually being empowered. Sometimes those that say such things are not racist but just highly ignorant but it still looks much the same to those on the outside. Just my .02 but thanks.

mlhradio

Vicb -

No use arguing against the tempest-teapotters with such silly little things as facts. You are wasting your breath (or in this case, keystrokes) - they don't want to hear the facts. They just want to be validated.

Let the 70,000 protester believe whatever they want to believe - if there's one thing this little teapot tempest proved last week, it's that the teapotter movement is a whole lot smaller than anyone could have ever expected. Turnout was much smaller than I would have ever hoped, and their impact was negligible. If anything, they just very publicly demonstrated how insignificant they really are.

So let it go, man, let it go. Let them live in their shrinking echo chamber, while the rest of the nation moves on.

mlhradio

I dunno, T-Steel - I think every message board needs a Court Jester. I find Wrong-Way Dave's occasional drive-by comments here absolutely *hilarious*!

Let him stay - we all need the comedy relief!

T-Steel

I know we have had our disagreements about how far race goes in the criticism of President Obama, TMSF, but I'm no fool. I've seen enough "Brobambi" references with accompanying bigoted slurs on other blogs to know "the deal" when I see "the deed".

I used to be a card-carrying bigot. I made some of the most vile remarks about white people until I got my face broke by a white person (who's now the godfather of my oldest child). That man broke me out of that bigoted thinking so completely that I forgot about color (well mostly, I like all the colors). LOL!

Either way, while I still maintain that the majority of the criticism of President Obama is based on policy, there is the bigoted undercurrent as well. Clear and present. We would ALL be best served to keep our disagreements civil to allow for more THOUGHTFULNESS instead of emotion reactions.

TheMagicalSkyFather

I disagree, first I think it was an impressive showing for a conservative protest since this is not really their arena. Secondly I do not find the comments that do such things amusing. To me comments like that are akin to peeing in my pool and then telling me that I am a bigot for pointing out people pee in pools and god forbid I accuse them. They not only offend me they marginalize my conservative views and worse in my opinion my friends that are actually conservatives views. If I wanted this nation to be a Dem only country I could be amused but I like having two parties that are at least kinda sane and allowing it to continue just perpetuates the problem.

Rudi

Fox and friends isn't about balance, but ratings and money. Granted, Fox News is a conservative voice, but if liberals were left out it's my guess Fox would be Left of the BBC. Love the family values of the Simpsons and Married with Children. Where is the Disney movies and Fahter Knows Best on Fox(non-news) ?

T-Steel

We don't do the site ban thing hardly at all. I'd rather have folks be passionate WITHOUT the "line-stepping" name-calling.

Can't lie though. I find the "Bambi" references hilarious especially since JibJab's "Time for Some Campaignin'" funny:

http://sendables.jibjab.com/originals/time_for_...

scottwsomerville

Your post proves Fox's point. (Are you a Fox plant?) The "official" unofficial estimate of "70,000" at the rally is hard to square with the DC Metro figures for that day, which show more than 200,000 more riders than usual on a September Saturday. If you SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that the "turnout was much smaller than expected," then all the big media missed this story... no matter how many reporters were there.

scottwsomerville

I got duped by the Promise Keeper's photo... but I don't think that's the photo Dave in Boca means. There is a legitimate photo from the top of the Capitol that provides the best evidence of the actual crowd size.

scottwsomerville

I like the initial math... not sure if I can buy the subsequent reasoning. If you accept the data from the DC Metro that shows ridership up more than 200,000 that day, you wind up with a number that's pretty close to your original figure.

My problem with the mainstream media is that nobody apparently called DC Metro or any other source to try to do this kind of independent analysis. "70,000" sounded good to them, so they went with that. That has the unintended consequence of creating a whole new urban legend of "the MSM knew there were 2 million people there but they buried it because they support Obama." It's bad journalism and it's STUPID sociology.

daveinboca

Here's a time-lapse photo from American Thinker, a blog most of the commenters above might not frequent.

Didn't know "Brobambi" had racial connotations because in S. Florida it's an Hispanic all-encompassing street term with no race specificity [whites, blacks, hispanics are all bros....] and bambi last time I checked was of a naive fawn in a Disney movie....implying someone way above his Peter Principle skill sets. An opinion about which I exercise my First Amendment rights to express.

scottwsomerville

Thanks for calling it "teapotter" instead of a sexual slur. But the people who attended left with the belief that their movement was much BIGGER than anyone could have ever expected. They came with projections of 30,000 or so and left thinking two million people were there. Now they think the MSM is engaged in a conspiracy to lie about the real numbers. It's the perfect way to fan the flames of paranoia.

The right answer is to put a journalist (heck, a journalism student) on the job of digging through all available data, going to some reputable experts, and coming back with a story. How big was it really? How do we know? Why did so many papers say X when it was really Y? Why do so many tea partiers believe it was Z when it was only Y? All in all, great follow-up journalism.

So where is it?

tagimaucia

Scott, even if there were 200,000 people there, the teabaggers were still initially exaggerating by *TEN* orders of magnitude.

daveinboca

Ha ha ha.... I like this example of a conspiracy theorist...lunacy on The View....

tagimaucia

daveinboca? It was my impression that the protesters had embraced that phrase?

See: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VGaTRwIldGc/SapmmzUnx...

TheMagicalSkyFather

Keep in mind that the riders rode out and in so the number has to be halved on the riders. That still leaves you with 100k, I would guess that 30k could be a mixture of protestors/those there to see them or journalists/and some random stragglers but that covers the ridership question. I also think that crowd sizes tend to be underestimated but you have to keep in mind that adding to the 912 protest numbers you then have to go back in time and do the same to all of the protest numbers that have been downplayed in the last 30-40 years. This also means things like the million man march the repubs and Rush mocked so horribly may have actually been a million since they were estimated around 800k I believe. This is my long way of saying the estimates are just that estimates but the numbers seem to be pretty close to the estimate which has been how they have been working with crowd size all along. We are actually being asked to move the goal posts when one side does not like the result that they never before complained about. Also the media covered the story though not to either partisan sides liking including Fox.

I live in Portland, OR and I went to watch Obama speak, the estimate was 70k people showed up. I really thought it was more since the entire downtown was packed like sardines and the cheers echoed around the entire downtown area(I live downtown). Its a lot of people, and when you are in it you can feel like it is even larger than it is. In fact at the time it felt like millions even though I knew they only had space for around 50k in the area(20k watched/listened from the streets and surrounding neighborhoods since we could not get close to the event(this is where I was as I tried to get in 2hrs before the event but it was already packed).

tagimaucia

Can someone please provide the link to the metro ridership web-page?

Edit: nevermind, found it

mlhradio

>>If you SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that the "turnout was much smaller than expected," then all the big media missed this story... no matter how many reporters were there.

I am having a hard time following your logic - it does not make any sense -- how does "smaller than expected" turnout mean that the Responsible Media missed the story? A does not lead to B.

In any case, *yes*, I really seriously believe that the turnout was much smaller than expected, as I had previously commented on in another discussion thread. Going back to April, enough people turned out to the April 15th teapot-tempest events (300-400K) to give me a bit of a pause - could this be a real movement? But then, after months and months of hyping and non-stop promotion by the Fox Comedy Channel, this supposed-to-be-major event on September 12th by the teapot-tempest crowd turned out to be a let-down. Only 60-70,000 showed up, showing that the anti-government anger is a whole lot smaller sliver of the nation than anyone had expected (it just seems larger because they are so loud and obnoxious). Still as unfocused in their message as before, despite months of having a chance to refine and target their message. Still stuck on pushing ridiculous conspiracy theories and marginalizing through misconceptions, half-truths and outright bald-faced lies.

This was supposed to be their Big Event? This was supposed to be the rally that would Wake Up America? This was supposed to show the anger brewing under the surface by Joe Six-Pack and Suzy Homemaker? Seriously?

A week later no one is talking about the message - people are only taking about how the anti-America crowd on the far right is whining about how they didn't receive any coverage and no one believes them when they try and parrot their inflated attendance figures. Epic fail.

And as I said before, I'm surprised that this little teapot tempest received such massive coverage from the Responsible Media, considering what a dud it ended up being in hindsight. And I do find the whole media-on-media nonsense over who "said the most" to be somewhat amusing. McLuhan must be chuckling in his grave.

TheMagicalSkyFather

Yes actually they have spouted many conspiracy theories as well, specifically Rosie who is no longer on the show. So let me re-state, if you get your news from Fox OR the View you are a conspiracy theorist. Also I do not take offense to bambi, or obambi and I am a strong Obama supporter. Brobambi looks like a slur so I would avoid it like the plague. The reason is that the right cant complain about being painted as racist if they are saying things that look or seem racist. If that is left at the door it becomes about policy which is a great and healthy debate to have but race baiting is no better than racist baiting and both I feel are dangerous not only to a Repub party that I would like to not see look like the Dems from the 70's-90's but also to our Republic.

Racist baiting is edging up to the slur/racist/bigot line and then pulling back to get people to scream racist at you so that you can say that they see racists everywhere for no reason.

mlhradio

>>even if there were 200,000 people there, the teabaggers were still initially exaggerating by *TEN* orders of magnitude.

FYI - ten orders of magnitude would be 10 to the 10th power - or 10 billion. And despite all the teapot-tempest crowd's hyper-exaggerations, I doubt there were trillions or quadrilliions of people at the rally. Methinks you meant *ONE* order of magnitude.

T-Steel

Oh I'm VERY fluent in the "bro". But I have seen the "Brobambi" used WAY TOO MANY times on other sites in unsavory bigoted ways. But if that's not what you meant, fine. I can accept that. But we shall see.

And no one's questioning your First Amendment rights. We just trying to keep some civility in the comments. No ulterior motives. No nanny states. No big "brothering". Promise.

mlhradio

Skyfather - don't forget the other major event on the Mall that day - the 24th Annual Black Family Reunion, which generally draws about half a million visitors to the Washington DC area over the weekend (I find that figure hard to swallow myself, but previous annual reunions have definitely been in the six-figure range, albeit low six figures; and not all of them were on the Mall). Makes you wonder how much of the ridership was because of that?

TheMagicalSkyFather

Wow I completely missed that, sorry all. I still stand by my statement that it was a good showing for a conservative movement but I would be saying that for any number above 40k. It would have been mocked if it was a lefty protest but lefties know how to protest, its what they do. Its kind of like Obama's campaign financing, it was impressive by Republican standards but it was also impressive by any campaign's standards. If he would have raised a good deal less it still would have been groundbreaking for the left, because it is not what they are known for.

SteveK

daveinboca,
1) Your video had a nice shot of a CNN van... More Proof that the recent full page FOX News ad was a LIE. Thanks for proving the actual point of this thread.
2) you should look up the meaning of big words like "time-lapse" before using them in a sentence.
3) Your video also shows a lot of green... open space... empty lawn.

daveinboca

Of course, TMSF omits the fact that a very popular local rock band gave a "free concert" beforehand which probably doubled the numbers of attendees to Obama's speech. My relatives in Portland describe it as the new SF, and Portland has more drugs and such goodies available than any place on the Left Coast. Or am I wrong, TMSF?

daveinboca

Wrong link above. Here should be the time-lapse photo, though I have a feeling that the substance of the event escapes a lot of people on this thread. A DC cop told DesertC over a million. I'm sure you'll say they were all circling the block again and again just to walk by that camera.

Oh yeah, Fox may have misstated, but compared to the usual all-over-like-a-cheap-suit coverage the media gives to most events, they really downplayed and underplayed, just like Fox may have overplayed, the event. Maybe a bit unbalanced, but still FAIR!

A CNN van with a snarky S. Florida adrenalin freak like Sanchez in it isn't covering the event, it's polluting it!

DLS

Sanchez is typical of CNN these days, lib media stooping to new depths in desperation about the Dems' debacle with health care. Sanchez is nearly uber-left MSNBC material; he was so militant recently he deliberately, rudely interrupted and scoffed at a critique of the Dems' health plan by one of the best-known "single-payer" adocates in the USA and the rest of the world, too, Steffie Woolhandler.

DLS

"Maybe a bit unbalanced, but still FAIR!"

More trustworthy and less predictable than the rest of the lib media and their current avant-garde darling, menagerie MSNBC (going ultra-left to distinguish itself, albeit through extremist controversy).

Fox is a non-lib-lock-step heretic among the lib media (filling a deliberately suppressed, not merely neglected, mainstream market), hence the vile treatment of it by the rest of its "peers."

vicb

That time-lapse picture of people marching down Pennsylvania Avenue looks impressive from above and far away because it seems people are shoulder to shoulder. There are plenty of street level videos that show the real crowd density - lots of people AND lots of empty pavement.

TheMagicalSkyFather

Actually you are, the drug scene here is much calmer than in CA or Seattle from what I have seen and what I have read and a whole lot less violent than the drug scene in the midwest(and this comes from someone that does not seek the scene out but generally has many friends in it, probably due to age). Crime is basically non-existent here compared to my home state of IN and the police are generally nice guys that when some one is doing something wrong no one has an issue talking to police. The police sent a jackboot response to the druggies in the 90's and they scurried back to LA rather swiftly after attempting to set up shop.
You are correct they did have a band to open but I have yet to meet anyone that went to see just them or went to see them and left but I have talked to many people that were sad that they were stuck in the streets and did not get in. I also heard "did you here Obama is coming??" for about two weeks before hand but Portland is freakishly politically active. Even if you halve his turn out though how exactly does that hurt him considering 35k is still a good bit larger then the Repub turn out for their ticket in the election?
I would not describe this place anywhere near SF. To be honest its very personally conservative but socially liberal place much more comparable to Wisconsin than CA especially SF. The streets are relatively clean here because the citizens love their town and take pride in it, hell even I find myself picking up trash and throwing it in the proper container when I am waiting on a bus or train. Most of my life I have lived by the creed of viewing others and their actions in a very socialist and helpful way and treating myself like a fascist and expecting a great deal from myself. Portland is the only place in the country that I have felt at home that way since I am not alone in that way of looking at the world. I will not stick up for many things but I will fight to the death for Portland since this is the most amazing place with some of the best people I have ever met while I moved all around this country. It also helped make me a big one for states rights though since if OR was left to their own devices it would be a magical place to live, the people are great, the elected leaders are generally pretty great(even the Senator I helped vote out was a good guy with a good record that I just disagreed with some of his stances) and everyone just works hard and is community oriented, I cant think of anything more American. It restored my faith in my nation when I moved here but that is because before here I lived in KY, IN, CA, FL, OH and to be honest the moral corruption and general political and infrastructure corruption were a constant weight on my mind.

TheMagicalSkyFather

Sorry one last point Portland LOOKS way worse than SF because more people than not dress like freaks and are covered in tattoo's or have a face full of metal studs but they actually act very differently then they look, and that could cause confusion and may be the reason that it is veiwed that way. A common bumper sticker is "Keep Portland Weird" and the big "hang out" place is Powell's which is a 4 story bookstore down town. Its a strange place, people dont watch tv they read instead. Also I lived in North FL not South FL so I have little knowledge of that area other than it is really pretty to vacation there :).

daveinboca

As a Wisconsin native, I can appreciate what my relatives tell me, as they are originally cheeseheads. They certainly like living in Portland, but although the drug scene is quiet, it's distasteful to them, that's all. And my wife, as a former Leg Asst. to Sen. Sarbanes, outed Hatfield on the Trans-African Pipeline scandal back in the '80s, and he gave the bribes back and apologized, so corruption does exist, and the Oregonian reporter told me at my kitchen table that there were seven scams the O had been unable to catch clean ol' Mark on. I was a Dem back then and the Reagan Revolution was beginning to affect my politics, but I've lived in MI [U of Mich, Ann Arbor 3 yrs], MN, Missourah, MA [where I have a Cape Cod home], FL, DC [20yrs], NY & CA [several months each] & Chicago for ten years as an Amoco Exec. as well as six countries abroad in my FSO career. FL , IL, & MA are the most corrupt [except for NYC & LA, where I worked in Dem politics], but overseas I can assure you that the two EU countries I've lived in, the UK & France, aren't as good as the ol' USA, including their much vaunted health plans. And forget about the Middle East and Far East. As a Political Officer, I got to see the sordid side of the countries I worked in and like sausage-making, it wasn't pretty.

BTW, I understood from the pictures and video that the Obama Portland event was outdoors, so how some people couldn't get "in" baffles me. I understand that the band was used as a "draw," something I employed when on Gene McCarthy's national staff back in '68 [with mariachi bands in the CA primary in San Berdoo.] It's not dishonest, just worth mentioning. [I also worked on Mondale's staff in '84.]

Just asking.....

daveinboca

There are at least half-a-million and the DC cop said over a million folks there, and these people represent tens of millions of people who couldn't get there but wanted to. You must have missed Nancy P's lament that 2010 could have a ginormous catastrophe for the Dems if they don't watch their backs. Like everything else, however, she didn't make sense because her inane leadership skill-set, or lack of same, is one of the causes of the coming repeat of 1994.

Too bad Peter Jennings won't be around to scold the American people for having a "temper tantrum." Always enlightening to be advised by a Canadian high-school dropout.

daveinboca

I recommend Jonah Goldberg's excellent "Liberal Fascism" for exploring the underlying dynamic in movements of the left and right which try to exclude opposition by any and all means possible. In the USA, we are protected by the marvelous First Amendment, but in the UK, for example, libel laws constantly hamper free speech because even if no infraction is committed, a person can be tied up in litigious expensive lawsuits by wealthy or influential "victims" supposedly slandered, even if what the "slander" says is true. Ditto for France, where I worked and had to sit in court hearings as a Vice Consul. France today is essentially an efficient fascist state where opposition is thwarted by a myriad of means by the government, ditto for Switzerland, the MOST efficient fascist state in the world, according to our American ambassador in my day!

daveinboca

Well, I love hangin' in bookstores & loved SF in the day, where I was at the old Family Dog and saw the Dead on 800 mics of windowpane while Commander Cody & the Lost Planet Airmen, for whom I was the bouncer, doorman, et al, in Ann Arbor, opened for them. City Lights was my fave hangout, but then I joined the State Dept and life got serious. Seriously better too, but that's another story.

N. Florida is very different from S. Florida, which is an extension in Boca of NYC & New England, and in Miami of South America. Miami is the most cosmopolitan city in the WORLD, with the highest percentage of foreign born inhabitants of any major metropolis anywhere. My daughter is a student at U.Miami and loves it, as do I. The B & N there on Miracle Mile in Coral Gables is virtually a human biodiversity test tube, with at least a dozen languages being spoken at the Starbucks in the store, where I hang out and drink chai. I gave a talk on Iran there a couple of years ago and keep in touch with the foreign affairs folks there.

nicrivera

As entertaining as I find this "debate" to be, I nonetheless feel compelled to point out just how far everyone has deviated from the initial subject of this post (the factual accuracy of the question asked in the Fox News ad "How Did ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN miss this story?").

Fox News made the assertion that the other news networks missed covering the 9/12 protest, which is demonstrably untrue. As Sanchez points out, Bill O'Reilly, himself, had a story about CNN's coverage of the 9/12 event.

How can Fox News assert that its competitor did not cover an event after one of its (Fox News) lead commentators issues a story criticizing its competitor's coverage of the event? Talk about cognitive dissonance!

So, rather than going all "Joe Wilson" on Fox News, I'll simply point out that in this case, Fox News' ad was "factually incorrect."

TheMagicalSkyFather

They stopped letting people in due to security. That was why. I just moved to Portland a few years ago so that is probably why it seems so oddly "clean" to me, that and I moved here from IN with a few year stop over in LA so my bar had been greatly lowered by then as well.

nicrivera

In fairness to Fox News, the 1.7 million number cited by Glenn Beck was apparently verified by the University of I Don't Remember.

DLS

"I recommend Jonah Goldberg's excellent 'Liberal Fascism'"

Dave, I've read it, and while the many critics on the Left are reflexively defensive about it, he's perfectly right about how fascistic behavior has been a staple of the Left in particular here in the States since the 1930s. (A more obscure work written at that time, Lawrence Dennis's "The Coming American Fascism" is as accurate as the book by Rex Tugwell, the New Deal architect, that was written later, with a 1960s-ish flair ["The Emerging Constitution"], in describing as well as justifying, or at least rationalizing, why it made sense.)

To this day I've never been refuted when I've said that the early 1990s HMO-"alliance"-based plan of Hillary Clinton's was fascistic, _and_ that "single-payer" advocates on the far Left (such as Melvin Konner) were either too afraid or too dishonest to say so (because it exposes the nature of so much of modern liberalism and authoritarianism since the capital-P Progressive era and especially since the 1930s and our modern welfare state establishment).

ObamaCare, a managed cartel, has elements of this same fascistic scheme, but was more transparent incrementalist takeover attempt and movement toward "single-payer" with its "public option" component. (Note that this "public option" is the main obstacle to passage and a major object of rejection by much of the public and non-lib Dems in Washington, but is the core of the lib Dems' effort, and is far from doomed at this moment. I still say the co-op fall-back may be taken and modified and augmented to be more like the public option eventually, as one lib Dem strategy.)

DLS

"Too bad Peter Jennings won't be around to scold the American people for having a 'temper tantrum.'"

They're more sloppy this time. That even extends to saying "yell" rather than "shout."

TheMagicalSkyFather

This is way off topic but I did have to note one of my co-workers that is a huge fan of Glenn Beck is also from WI originally and is now in Portland, I will have to ask if he has any relatives in your area as we may know some common people, small world indeed!

daveinboca

Indeed, and I'm going to a high school reunion next year in Milwaukee anyway, so I'm ready to network all over again.

Leonidas

Had never heard of "Brobambi" before, not a term this critic of the President would use.

I think I prefer

One
Big
A**ed
Mistake
America

And my criticism has nothing to do with race. I'd have loved to have seen Colin Powell as President, or JC Watts.

archangel

Enough now Daveinboca and all others: TMV won't tolerate your use of special needs kids' diagnosis to insult others, Dave.

The comment board is for commenting on the topic of the article, not each other.

thanks.

dr.e

TheMagicalSkyFather

Sorry Dr E, I think a good part of this side track was caused by me which was not the intent. I think once you find a "nice" topic to discuss with someone you thought you may never agree with things tend to get out of hand. Then that conversation got blended in with an argument and things got ugly, for that I blame myself. That and I ramble and roll through topics like a truck driver goes through cups of coffee, sorry for my part.

archangel

All is well MagicalSkyFather. We're all rolling forward on track again. Thank you for your comment on this aspect.

dr.e

GeorgeSorwell

Scott W. Somerville--

If there's a "legitimate photo", where is it?

Some legitimate source would be very useful to support your assertion.

archangel

comments that violate TMV rules for commenters have been removed. The flow of comments that were on topic are not affected. TMV comment area is for comments on the topic of the article.

thanks.
dr.e
Editor TMV

blog comments powered by Disqus