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The Great Tea Party Protest: The Aftermath

Posted by TYRONE STEELS II, Site Administrator in Media, Politics, Society.
Sep 13th, 2009 | Comments

I am quite pleased at the Tea Party Protest March On Washington turnout yesterday (September 12, 2009). I’ve always been a fan and a lover of the protest and demonstration. I’ve been involved in many throughout my three and a half decades of life, the largest being the Million Man March (MMM) on October 16, 1995. There’s a certain beauty about a protest. Everyone with a singular purpose and expressing themselves. Just a wonderful thing.

But enough of my “protest love”. As we all know, one person’s civil protest is another person’s “collection of nutjobs, losers, racists, and ignoramuses” (note those were words used to describe Million Man March demonstrators and were used by various new media folks about the D.C. Tea Party demonstrators as well). And of course, all mass demonstrations have collections of wackaroons that the media loves to single out. I remember at the MMM a guy had a sign that said, “The Black Revolution Has Started! Repent Whitey!”. The guy (about in his early 50s) holding the sign was all decked out in military fatigues, beret, boots, etc. He looked and sounded SO ignorant. Many of us told him to put that sign down but he was a strident character and we left him alone. Sure enough, some guy from SOME paper was talking to him while he spouted out some serious insanity. Funny that even though I was still entertaining my own black nationalist thoughts that day, I found him ignorant.

Fast forward to yesterdays D.C. Tea Party Protest. I saw plenty of pictures of bigoted signs, racist t-shirts, and general insanity. And of course old and new media latched on to that. This is America and we love a good show. And who puts on better shows than the loopy, goofy, and nutty. Also it fits the narrative that the Republican Party is fueling the Fringe Right to derail anything President Obama does. But the following photo via Michelle Malkin is what I feel the general takeaway from yesterdays demonstration should be:

hell-no-party

The Party of Hell No. The way I have been voting since I was 18. It says so much and I love that a regular guy just wrote it. Hundreds of thousands of people showed up. Each motivated by their own ideas, thoughts, and beliefs. But the general thought is hell no. And it’s your right as an American to say and peacefully display your “hell no” when you want when you disagree with the government. I respect that even if some (and I emphasize “some” so don’t get it twisted) of the protesters out there don’t respect me because of my somewhat caramel brown complexion.

So the aftermath is a win for the Republican Party and conservatives in general. They have shown up en masse to say “hell no” to President Obama, his administration, and Congress (particularly Democrats). What happens now? Who knows. But a large segment of Americans are saying “hell no”. That doesn’t mean that President Obama has to totally submit to them. But it does mean that the President needs to respect that and chart a more even course. We’re all Americans and like it or not, we’re all in this together. That’s not a socialist or communist statement. That’s reality. And keeping things as even as possible is a win-win.

  • Kastanj
    "They have shown up en masse to say “hell no” to President Obama, his administration, and Congress (particularly Democrats)"

    How convenient for the previous administration that these people started exhibiting any guts only when people with D's in front of their names regained power.

    Not impressed by the commitment and energy of these people. It's anger alright, but it lacks reason and I shouldn't have to abide political sentiments based on emotions.

    They put on the blinders despite years of evidence that Bush's tax cuts and wars were poorly planned and partisan, but Obama are months in and apparently these people think they have the right to feel oppressed and scared by hypothetical scenarios dreamt up by extremely partisan manipulators. I say thee "feh". If these people aren't scared by "enhanced interrogation" but feel proud over shouting "Hell no" the minute Obama challenges holy Reagan's edicts, I remain very cold to their worries. "Conservative" they are not - they were liberal with money, truth and the liberties of others when their guys were in control, and the democrats currently in government are not trying anything as egregious or partisan.

    If anything, these protests show that reform is the best thing for America, and that there must be even less right-wingers in government. These 70 000 million trillions could protest in twice that amount - but I respect thinking, not numbers, and here they fall pitifully short.
  • vey9
    What he said.
  • Dude, great post. Great site. I lifted the picture of the guy with the "Hell no" sign for my site. Hope you don't mind. Have a great rest of your weekend.

    John from Brokencountry.com
  • added a link to your site from mine. Thanks again
  • Kastanj
    If six million people doesn't stop an incredibly partisan and idiotic war, 70 000 people shouldn't matter when a president has decided to make a very sensible first step in health care reform while making it deficit-neutral. There is no sense of proportion in this debate - since republicans are always "folksy" they never have to worry about what people actually think but democrats always have to worry about what some teary-eyed retired person (you know, a person who enjoys socialism) thinks about their plans.

    Enough.
  • Thank the last administration too. So many people (especially blacks and liberal race card purveyors) think that opposition to obama is about race. Lest we forget, the american people were unhappy with bush and that is why obama got elected. Obama is continuing to march our goverment to the beat of reckless and big spending. In fact he is accelerating it. Much like bush and his weapons of mass destruction, obama is finding new and creative excuses to spend money. Look at the stimulus and financial bail outs. Wall street has had no meaningfull reform even though acccording to the new administration they averted a catastrophe with their big spending. Well hello what's to stop it from happening again why we talk about healthcare? So now wall street is back at it while we talk about death panels and public options. No its not about race, not for most. Its about washington. The corruption and arrogance has become intolerable to the american people. We don't want the new boss to spend more than the old boss. We want them to stop spending money and to stop rationalizing it becasuse the other side did it. Nothing meaningful can come from washingtion when big business, labor unions, and lawyers can short circuit the system with their special interests bribery. REFORM WASHINGTON NOT HEALTHCARE.
  • I think anyone who endorses "just say no" in pretty much any arena, but in particular the political arena, is just being stupid. Not ignorant, which is a lack of knowledge, but stupid, which is acting with a willful disregard to reality. Honestly, there has to be something that you are for at some point in time. If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
  • Silhouette
    Protests really are an american way of life. My favorite one is not spending money online with any business registered in any state that stands opposed to the public option. I realize that includes a lot of states but money is short anyway this holiday shopping season and so I'm working on a nub budget I'll search out those states publicly in favor of the public option and do my shopping only there.

    Protests really can be civil and fun!
  • Kastanj
    "the beat of reckless and big spending"

    I'll give you "big". "Reckless", however, implies spending without reckoning. But Obama's spending is a result of recon of the current situation and the future. Don't try to equate this president with the last one.

    "Look at the stimulus and financial bail outs."

    Unlike the tax cuts and the invasion of Iraq, these measures were mostly *not* ideological in nature. You think Obama wanted to start his presidency with that?

    "The corruption and arrogance has become intolerable to the american people."

    Hindsight is o to twenty out of twenty. Even if you disregard the odd timing of these "non-partisan's" awakening, I don't think going from naivety to "wharrrrrgarbl sozializmism" is prescient.

    "We want them to stop spending money and to stop rationalizing it becasuse the other side did it."

    They are rationalizing it by arguing that reforming healthcare, even at a cost is rational. I only bring up the last presidency to point out that most of the protesters are rank partisans, not to excuse any mistakes of this administration.

    This needs to happen, reconciliation or not.
  • So if Americans marched on Washington to just say YES, things would have good?

    Just asking...
  • Wannabe_Centrist
    Iraq War protesters were called a lot more than nutjobs ect., which includes terrorists, unpatriotic, un-American, and communists. These people were just protesting a false unnecessary war and god forbid a sane American be allowed to do something moral for once. Now we have people doing everything they can to stop a program that will lower health costs and hopefully screw big insurance and pharma enough to where they stop gouging the living hell outta some of us. They’re patriotic for choosing the losing side simply because big gov’t scares them yet they were nowhere to be found from 2001 to 2008. I guess to be considered a non-terrorist, patriotic, and American you have to do everything you can to screw the little guys and happily help out those with power, whether it is our gov’t or a corporation with millions of dollars to burn on false advertisement and lobbyists.

    The GOP isn’t winning anything except for a temporary poll drop for Obama. Seeing the AARP commercial with that ambulance being heckled and being for health care reform brought such a huge smile to my face knowing that with them on our side, the GOP chances of screwing this up for us all is almost gone. The truth is coming out and unfortunately we will have no choice but to assume that these people with the “hell no” attitude on reform are just blind stooges for the corporate gougers.
  • ordinarysparrow
    an illustration of your post. . . what has changed in 50 years?. . .

    once heard a Neuro Toxicologist say the down fall of mankind resides in the variance of evolution of the brain. . .the part that governors our emotions and fear, fight, and flight is much slower in evolution than the part of the brain that creates our technology. . . 50 years of technology hardly imaginable. . .yet the limbic portion of the brain may have regressed a bit of late?

    DNC 1968
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epxmX_58tOo&feat...

    Race Rights Chicago 1968
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajOEE1_HeOY&feat...

    People's Park 1969
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Cp3PbzpZY&feat...

    But my real question: Is there any good music coming from the Great Tea Party Protest?

    Peter, Paul, and Mary
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8U6Oh9uSY8
    Freedom Jimi Hendrix
    http://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en#inbox

    American version of Peace Train
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOducVt1Czk&NR=1

    Muslim version of Peace Train
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA8lgZSrVXk&feat...

    Or any great messages?
    Martin Luther King Jr. I Have A Dream
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk&feat...
  • redbus
    Kastanj --

    Seriously? I'm no longer a member of the GOP precisely because our last President never vetoed a single spending bill until very late in his eight years in office. Now I'm supposed to be happy when our new President whips out the national credit card for a lunatic spending spree, under the deceptive guise of "stimulus"? He's making Bush look like a piker, for heaven's sake! As for the deficit neutral line, the new health care program would cost $ 900 billion over ten years. And the way things always cost more then projected -- like the late Senator Kennedy's tunnel debacle in Boston called the "Big Dig" -- I suspect that $ 900 billion is a low-ball figure. An electorate that a few years ago had around 1% of income in savings, and now has around 6% has grown more fiscally conservative. This isn't accidental -- ever heard of Dave Ramsey? Now we want our government to tighten its belt. I'm a conservative, not a Republican -- the two aren't identical, but I totally identify with the sentiments of the Tea Party when it comes to the current financial lunacy.
  • "Now we have people doing everything they can to stop a program that will lower health costs and hopefully screw big insurance and pharma enough to where they stop gouging the living hell outta some of us."

    That's a fair point. It's also a fair point to say that this may cause health care costs to rise. See I just don't blow off Americans because they are protesting. I don't begrudge them for saying NO. If people see runaway government spending and don't like it, why do they have to be stupid (as another commenter said)?
  • elrod
    Hundreds of thousands? LOL. Police put it at about 50,000. I've watched protests in DC over the years (I used to live there) and you can tell pretty easily from the aerial shots how big the crowd was. This was about 50,000 - maybe as much as 70,000 if people on side streets are counted. Never count on participants to count their own crowd size. Anti-war people made the same mistake.

    And as for Michelle Malkin posting this picture - puhleeze. So desperate to make these folks look normal they picked out one of a tiny handful of non-whites present. Does that mean that colleges with three black people in it - who all make the cover of the marketing brochure - is "diverse" now? Talk about tokenism.
  • Well elrod, I could care less about "non-whiteness" of the person in the picture. I like the sign and the idea behind it. Yes the vast majority of the people there were white. And??

    Doesn't take away from the sign and what it is saying.
  • jeff_pickens
    Tyrone: it is good we can protest. It's very American. Let's keep it civil.

    Andrew Sullivan has a posting at The Daily Dish that gave me pause, just as you mentioned about in your post: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily...

    The poster reads, in full: "Do I Look Like I Want to Serve in Obama's Youth Millitia?" with a t-shirt that reads "The Cure for Obama Communism is A New Era of McCarthyism." It's worn by a 16 year old kid. He hasn't the slightest idea what Communism or McCarthyism looks like.

    To me, this nullifies any good intention of protest. It has disqualified the entire event to one of hyperpartisan hysteria, and the basest Sarah Palin hatefulness stirred up at the Republican pep-rallies during the campaign.

    These protesters are a few trillion dollars short, and about 8 years late, on their protests.
  • Wannabe_Centrist
    I agree with your point about not demonizing or belittling protesters when they are protesting something most can consider valid, but I know for sure the recent tea partiers (at least some) wanted to throw in health care reform to "prove" that the Obama gov't is trying to take over everything with health care at the top of his American destroying agenda (to the loud few the media show like you said). I just think it is a bad idea for tea party protesters to take up the call of destroying HC reform just because it is seen as big gov't (not to mention it makes them seem more partisan since anti-HC reform is labeled as GOP). I don't see Obama's health care reform as socialism, I see it as spending money to fix something that is broken and is a large burden on our gov't and that can be viewed as patriotic and American since fixing HC just to bring it up to the standards of the lesser nations that laugh at our current system is a good cause, third world nations included (sry bout the run on). If health care costs do rise, are you talking about costs on individual people or the overall cost on our gov’t? I’m choosing to stay optimistic and hoping that prices do not rise and I don’t see the media giving these guys too much respect since they have the power to focus on the few loud ones while ignoring the more civil ones. Protest big government all you want, but IMO it’s a very bad idea for the tea partier’s sake to latch onto HC reform.
  • ""The poster reads, in full: "Do I Look Like I Want to Serve in Obama's Youth Millitia?" with a t-shirt that reads "The Cure for Obama Communism is A New Era of McCarthyism." It's worn by a 16 year old kid. He hasn't the slightest idea what Communism or McCarthyism looks like."

    Your right. And with all the protests I've participated in, that is what I always disliked (as shown in that 16-year old kid). But that goes with the territory and I will always support Americans in protesting something that they feel passionate about.
  • Kastanj
    "Now I'm supposed to be happy when our new President whips out the national credit card for a lunatic spending spree, under the deceptive guise of "stimulus"?"

    Can you explain another reason for Obama wanting the stimulus than him believing it would stimulate the economy?

    "He's making Bush look like a piker, for heaven's sake!"

    False.

    "As for the deficit neutral line, the new health care program would cost $ 900 billion over ten years."

    It's still too little, but it sounds very sensible all things considering.

    "And the way things always cost more then projected"

    [citation needed]. Not having reform is still going to cost all of you money.

    "I totally identify with the sentiments of the Tea Party when it comes to the current financial lunacy."

    The problem is that most of y'all didn't care when much stupider and bigger spending happened. The onus is on you considering how costly the status quo is.
  • archangel
    hi there John, did a little research and the photo you wanted is from http://www.lookingattheleft.com/ and taken I think, by the blogger whose site that is, El Marco, for citation. It appears it's genealogy went to Michelle Malkin's website from El Marco. El Marco was in Wash D.C. for the march and if you go to his website, has interesting eye witness commentary too.

    Thanks
    Dr.E
    editor, TMV
  • ProfElwood
    Coming from a heavily Democratic area, the protest is a small token of some genuine concern. The majority of the people who follow politics, are concerned with the rapid growth that has been taking place in the last decade. They were upset with Bush; they're upset with Obama. The leaders in Washington DC are snubbing not only the Republicans and conservatives, but also the more fiscally responsible in their own party.

    As for the current breed of health care reform: it isn't. The special interest of the AMA, the health insurance companies, and the pharma companies aren't being threatened. Pharma in particular, has offered $150 million to get this bill, whatever it may turn out to be, passed. That's an obvious clue as to how this "reform" will affect costs. The public option is an attempt to bring down costs at the insurance end, which can't work. That's like trying to improve mileage at the gas gauge. The cost drivers are in the current laws. The McCarran-Ferguson act (which aids in the formation of monopolies, stops people from buying insurance across state lines, and allows states to mandate coverage), which even Reid has spoken against. The ERISA preemption laws that block many legitimate lawsuits against health insurance. And laws that prevent competition in medicine from other countries, or in Medicare part D purchasing. When congress has the guts to ignore their lobbyists and attack the causes of rising prices, then we'll have real health care reform.
  • DLL83
    I've always felt like it would take one hell of a cause to get me out to a protest. This is not to say that I don't care about important issues - on the contrary, I feel some issues are so important that they deserve to be treated with more respect than to be turned over to mindless masses holding up signs they don't even understand. I realize this is not necessarily characteristic of everyone in the group, but this is inevitably the way it is portrayed. And let's face it, even though I don't think it's right to do, it is SO easy to make these guys look bad. Maybe it's just my personality, but I've rarely felt like protesting accomplishes much (there are some exceptions, of course). I prefer other means of making a point.

    That being said, this article was a good reminder to me that even though I may not like it, I can still respect it.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Yes, T-Steel, I will feel free to call them stupid. Why? Because just saying no or even "Hell, no!" is a sign of an inability to think of anything positive. As these people are doing it more as a tantrum than anything else. You say that some people like the kid with the sign and t-shirt are just part of it. Really? In this case I'd say they're most of it. There was the sign that Joe referred to saying "Bury Obamacare with Kennedy", the one calling Nancy Pelosi a fascist and with a picture of her with a "Hitler" mustache, the one showing Obama talking to terrorists with the words "Whoa, boys! I'll take it from here.", the one calling for the impeachment of the Muslim Marxist, "Oust the Marxist Usurper", the one that ended "We came unarmed...this time.", the one calling Obama "The greatest communist president we've ever had.", the guy dressed as death with a sign saying Obama's health care czar, the truck done up with signs saying "Obama dies, Grandma Dies" and a picture of Terry Schiavo titled "Your tax $" and one exhorting us to stop sinning before another 9-11 happens, "Jesus the Messiah, not Obama" and the classics with Obama as Hitler. Given the mix of signs I doubt that they mainly care about the issues.
  • Workhorse
    Nice blog post. The GOP lost in 2006 because they were fiscally and morally irresponsible for a number of years. The Dem's are following the same path at a quick-time pace. Different useless programs for different cronies, same waste of tax dollars and an ever increasing debt. I am getting real tired of figuring out who is the potentially greater evil and then voting for the other guy. We need someone with the smarts of Bill Clinton and the leadership of Ronald Reagan. These recent and current inexperienced amateurs only care about taking care of those ideologically aligned with themselves, and to hell with the rest of us. Time for a third way.
  • "Time for a third way."

    Ya know, I used to hold out hope for that. Not anymore.

    Rather, we're going to see-saw back and forth between these two parties, with ever-increasing hostility from the partisans, and ever-increasing frustration from moderates and independents.

    Sigh...
  • Father_Time
    It's really a dumb protest.

    Socialized medicine reduces healthcare costs considerably. By HALF compared to nations with full socialized medicine.

    Where were all these conservative protestors when Bush ran up the national debt 50 fold? Where were these conservative protestors when Bush craped on the constitution with the patriot act?

    This protest is irrelevant. They vote republican anyway and they lost the election.

    America just needs to educate it's people better regarding the issues. Conservative false propaganda needs to be exposed over and over again.

    Ignore these deluded people.
  • Call them stupid all you want Jim. It's your right and have fun. But large groups of people mobilizing for a cause isn't stupid. I have no doubt there were stupid people in the crowd. But I never see stupidity in the movement.

    I remember all of the negative press of the Million Man March. It was called stupid, hateful, racist, dumb, etc. And the participants were derided, criticized, and the like. But many of us left the occasion motivated to change "things". We left empowered and uplifted. I walked with a couple of anti-war protests during the run-up to the Iraq War. And I felt the same way. And I knew a couple of people who went to the D.C. Tea Party and they left feeling the same way. People mobilize united to cause a change. And that's not stupid whether the change happens or not. I know what side of the fence you sit on Jim. And you will NEVER hear me disrespect that or call you stupid if you felt compelled to march in that cause.

    Yes the Republicans lost in 2009. Nothing can change that. But a political loss doesn't mean that a cause is lost. And I don't begrudge any tea party protester (excluding the wackaroons who need to chill) from fighting to the bitter end for something they believe in.
  • SteveK
    (excluding the wackaroons who need to chill)
    If you exclude the wackaroons you're only left with about four or five thousand protesters... And if you took time to read their signs (the reason they were there) you'd narrow down the protesters to ten or fifteen groups with a couple hundred people each. So let's get back to why 'they" all showed up to Glen Beck's 912 Project.

    Government spending?.. No, if they were worried about government spending they would have been there protesting when GWB spent us into three trillion dollars of debt. (Anyone care to challenge the FACT that the seven years of Republican control of all three branches of government all but bankrupted OUR nation?)

    Health Care Reform?.. No, if they gave a rats behind about Health Care Reform they would have done something about it when they were in charge. We wouldn't be needing Health Care Reform. (Care to challenge the FACT that we need Health Care Reform?)

    A black Democrat as President of the United States of America?.. A Democrat MAJORITY in both the House and Senate?.. Yep! Plain and simple... Yep! (Care to challenge?..)
  • kathykattenburg
    I understand that you don't want "the new boss" to make the same mistakes "the old boss" made, but don't you think that Republicans and other former Bush supporters (and not saying you're in either group) have an obligation -- given that they *did* support the president who took a surplus and turned it into a 2 trillion-dollar deficit -- to come up with a serious (as in, not a joke) alternate plan to reform health care instead of just saying Hell No, Hell No?

    Which brings me to my second point. Since you apparently oppose Pres. Obama's proposal for health care reform, do you prefer the status quo? Because what the status quo means is that we continue to spend $2 trillion on health care every year. That is what we currently spend annually on health care -- and it's going up.So is spending $2 trillion a year on the status quo preferable to passing health care reform legislation that over the next several years will begin to bring costs down?
  • Leonidas
    If you exclude the wackaroons you're only left with about four or five thousand protesters


    Holy stereotyping Batman!!!

    Yes only a small minority of those with a different opinion are sane right?

    *facepalm*
  • kathykattenburg
    T-Steel, come on now. It's not about just saying the word "Yes." It's about having a constructive, positive, serious, alternative plan that will accomplish the goal.

    You know that.
  • Leonidas
    Kathy,

    Where is the Obama plan in print?

    It isn't. The GOP has the Ryan plan, and others, the Democrats have HR. 3200 which they can't even muster their own party support for.
  • kathykattenburg
    Well, yeah, bills cost money, it's true. Legislation has to be implemented, and that costs money. The provisions for actions taken inside bills cost money. It's true. You cannot pass a bill that doesn't cost money. Yeah.

    So your preference is for... what? Continuing to spend $2 trillion a year on health care and watching the deficit go up and up and up? Because since the deficit and health care are pretty much the same thing, unless you bring down the cost of health care, you ain't bringing down the deficit.

    Your move, redbus.
  • kathykattenburg
    Well, I for one don't begrudge them saying no. They have the right. It's our elected leaders who have to do more than just say no.

    What bothers me about the 9/12 marchers is the photos I saw of confederate flags, of t-shirts with 25 guns labeled as "diversity," of the sign that urged that Obamacare be buried with Kennedy, of the signs that called Obama Hitler and a Nazi, AND a fascist, AND a communist. Hate and political ignorance at the same time. Can't beat it.

    I've been to a lot of marches in my time, and I've seen a lot of dumb stupid signs at those marches, but never have I seen a woman with a big confederate flag, or a sign suggesting Kennedy's death was a good thing, et al. Personally, I find it appalling. And that's what I object to.
  • SteveK
    Leonidas wrote:
    Holy stereotyping Batman!!!

    Yes only a small minority of those with a different opinion are sane right?

    *facepalm*
    My weekend was enjoyably busy so all I had time for was to read, not reply to, comments on TMV.

    After reading your weekend posts I've come to the conclusion that there is no room or reason for us to waste our time trying to discuss or debate the issues with one other. Tell all your eclectic friends that I said "Hi" and we can just leave it at that.
  • kathykattenburg
    *That's* the one I was talking about in my reply above to T-Steel. I also saw a photo of a sign that said, "McCarthy was right."

    I mean, if that does not frighten sensible people, I don't know what would.
  • Unless they start burning SS checks, Medicare cards, and VA ID cards they're a bunch of posers.
  • ProfElwood
    As a matter of fact, yes, I'd love to challenge.
    Maybe the fact passed you by, but the Republicans lost members in droves during GWB's term. So your knee-jerk argument that Republicans weren't concerned with his spending fall flat. It's a common argument, but that never meant it had any real merit.

    You may have also forgotten about another pesky little group in Obama's way: Democrats. He's not only managed to split this nation down partisan lines, he's doing a dandy job of splitting his own party. I know because that's the people that I live around: Democrats who were alarmed at Bush (especially his chicken-little bank bailouts), but are even more upset with Obama and his (not the) Democrats on their spending spree.

    Do we need health care reform? Of course! Are the Republicans interested? Of course not! Are the Democrats interested? Obviously not! The only real reform is one that would reduce costs. Doing that alone would extend the viability of our public programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, increase accessibility to the poor, and get our economy back on track. I offered some suggestions in my previous post, so I won't repeat them here.

    Racist? So why do they hate Pelosi, Reid, and Alexrod? Again, it's a common charge, devoid of merit.
  • ProfElwood
    This is yet another old merit-less argument. Being forced to accept a government program is not the same as supporting it. People who are living on SS and Medicare were forced to pay into it, whether they agreed with it or not. According to your logic, then in our slavery era, the retired slaves, who no longer needed to work, should have been advocates of slavery, since they were enjoying its benefits. Most of these people are concerned with their children and grandchildren more than themselves.
  • SteveK
    Elwood wrote: "Maybe the fact passed you by, but..."
    Phooey.
  • Kastanj:

    Reckless is a 750bil stimulus passed in the dead of night under the guise of an emergecy...that has barely been spent. Kind of like weapons of mass destruction. Reckless is an omnibus with tens of thousands of earmarks not vetoed by a president who propmised he would do so to get elected. Diod you know obama himself had earmaks in the bill from when he was a junior senator? The dems removed them in the 11th hour to save the new president embarassment. I guess reckless is a relative term for you.

    Obama absolutely wanted to start his term with the stimulous and his bailout of GM violated bankruptcy laws to help his union supporters. of coure he wanted it that way...ove 6 billion alone is reserved for community organizers like acorn. Obama did it immediately so he could blur the the line between administrations. With all that money why would one expect anything less than a lobbiest feeding frenzy? Isn't that exactly what Obama promised to change? You bet he did.

    twenty twenty hindsight not withstanding, obama kept defense secretary Gates and continues to further the bush war for corporate america in the name of national security. No doubt the those poor bastards in afganistan are mounting a donkey attack on the mainland US as we speak. I believe americans felt disenfranchised long befor obama. HIs promise to change all of this, and obvious intentions not to, have drawn the snakes out of their holes and boy are they pissed.

    The protesters are not rank partisans, they do not trust their government and for good reason. The mistake this administration is making is not taking its capaign promises to clean up washington seriously.

    If we can save 500bil by stopping fraud in healthcare why would we plan to spend it before it is even realized? Everyone knows legal reform would save equally as much. Why is it that the obama administration is so pro union and pro defense lawyer lobby? It is a comon arguement to say that the last party played ball this way and spent alot of money on war etc. Yes and that's why they lost the election.

    Does healthcare need to be reformed? I'm sure it does. The problem is washington can't do it in a way that won't be tainted by the special interests that pull their strings. These same special interests are in part to blame for the healthcare problem to begin with. REFORM WASHINGTON THEN REFORM HEALTHCARE. Washington makes me sick.
  • Kathy:

    I think that healthcare needs to be reformed but not by spending imaginary or otherwise unrealized savings. There is no working model in the world for the system being proposed. It has failed in every state it was tried in. (see oregon, see tennesee, see massachusets) why on earth would we expect it to work now. (see definition of insanity) I think that if fraud can be saved then do it. I think tort reform would save even more money. I think dergulating the market might help. Look at what the telecom act of 1996 did when they broke up the giant corporate players. We all went form black rotaries to blackberries, It worked! I think a catestrohic subsidy might be feasible, I think that goverment clinics for the poor sould be implented to save emergency room costs, I think that millions of people are losing their healthcare because they are losing their jobs! We can't all work for the biggest growth sector in america (the goverment)

    Imagine our healthcare system is a patient. A doctor treating an unknown ailment would try various treatments one at a time in an attempt to fix the problem. Does it make sense to use everything in the pharmacy and hope for the best? A gradual adjustment to Helthcare policy and regulation would be best. You can't fix everything all at once with the stroke of a pen and America knows this.
  • One more thing Kathy:

    the majority of people at the tea party protests do not cary crazy signs or guns. Some people in the media choose to highlight this tiny fringe because it gets people to watch their shows or read their papers or dare i say it? it lets them promote their own liberal agendas to demonize an american movement that truely is anti republican and anti democrat. I live in arizona. I abhor the legacy of the rebublican executive branch. I was raised a liberal by republican haters and i know this much: both sides of the isle are to blame. Democrats are no better. Every major urban poverty center has been under democrat control for over 100 years. Are we to belive that the republican kept all those good people down? How about those democrat officials in ethnically poor places that have been selling their constiuents out for decades? What about the corruption of our congress? Are we to believe that even though the democrats have controlled it for the better part of a century that its all the evil war mongering republicans fault. I propose they are two sides of the same corrupt coin. I think american politics have reached a tipping point in that they see that the new boss is the same as the old boss. where we go from here is anybodys guess.
  • Father time:

    Regarding the cost of healthcare in socialized countries: Yes it is much cheaper and for two reasons. 1) you can't sue your doctor. 2) the medicine is much cheaper. That''s why american buy it mail order or go up to Canada. Now both of these things are not being seriously considered in the current healthcare bill. Well now you can do the math with your socialized medicne costs. Don't forget to carry the trillions.

    The protesters were watching bush wipe his ass all over this country for the last 8-years. Many of them voted for obama because he promised to change the direction bush had taken the country. Obama is the biggest sellout that ever walked the earth. Unions and lawyer and bailouts oh my.
  • Leonidas
    After reading your weekend posts I've come to the conclusion that there is no room or reason for us to waste our time trying to discuss or debate the issues with one other. Tell all your eclectic friends that I said "Hi" and we can just leave it at that.


    Saddens me if you feel that way, but if thats your choice, so be it. I haven't seen much more than hyperbole from you so maybe it was inevitable, as its almost impossible to have a meaningful debate with an ideologue such as yourself.. Say hi to your friends as well. I disagree with you and your approach, but I have no ill will. Be well.
  • Leonidas
    What bothers me about the 9/12 marchers is the photos I saw of confederate flags, of t-shirts with 25 guns labeled as "diversity," of the sign that urged that Obamacare be buried with Kennedy, of the signs that called Obama Hitler and a Nazi, AND a fascist, AND a communist. Hate and political ignorance at the same time. Can't beat it.

    I've been to a lot of marches in my time, and I've seen a lot of dumb stupid signs at those marches, but never have I seen a woman with a big confederate flag, or a sign suggesting Kennedy's death was a good thing, et al. Personally, I find it appalling. And that's what I object to.


    I share your condemnation of most of those signs, do you share my condemnation of the signs I have posted a link to of anti-bush protestors?

    Here is the link in case you missed it before:
    http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621
  • Father_Time
    Those are actually minor points. The reason healthcare in virtually all other modern nations that virtually all have government national socialized medicine is overall costs from Salaries to the cost of a Q-tip. The only way you can effectively control this, is through direct government control. Again, just like every other modern nation on earth, (and many not so modern).

    These facts cannot be denied. P.S., I don’t like Canada as an example. They do Socialized Medicine rather poorly IMO.
  • Father_Time
    Yeah, if you also condemn the signs and clutter against President Bill Clinton and condemn outright Rush Limbaugh, G.Gordon Liddy and the like.

    You people started this crap.
  • ProfElwood
    Father_Time:"You people started this crap."

    You're showing your bias. The people who started this died long ago.
  • Kathy, what I saw at Iraq War protests were a bunches of good folks opposing the war and a small groups of wackaroons with some truly disgusting signs. My friend, who was at the 9/12 said the exact same thing. I am always, let me repeat ALWAYS, in support of civil protest. I love to see people coming together in a mostly singular purpose. Be it from the left or the right. And any elected leader should always respect that dissent. Now we all know there's dissent and then there "dissent". And the latter is filled with nastiness, stupidity, bigotry, sexism, and general craziness. And that type of dissent always finds a way to be seen. But I will not, shall not, won't not, and could not write off the 9/12 Tea Party protesters as just stupid for just saying NO! Heck, NO is the only weapon regular folks have against a corporation, government, etc.
  • DLS
    T-Steel, if you were there, you know that it was overwhelmingly mainstream (unlike so much of the anti-war Bush-bashing) but that it was similar to the anti-war protests in that many enjoyed themselves, in a social event similar to a rock concert (or as I've said before, a carnival, especially with the puppets and signs and costumes in the case of the anti-war demonstrators in earlier years).

    I was listening to two radio programs on the road this morning here in Detroit metro, and one of them was a mainstreamer who disparaged the mischaracterization CNN made of the event and the people -- even NPR did a better, more accurate job than CNN. Meanwhile, on infantile Stephanie Miller's show, today's programming was devoted to gross distortion, slander, and much worse about the protestors, stooping low as I've seen elsewhere among lefties (including on this site) given the current desperation about the health care legislation and the liberal Democrats' self-made disasters this year.
  • DLS
    "1) you can't sue your doctor."

    It's beyond most ObamaCare proponents' ability to understand this (, too), but that's why there not only are likely private insurers retained now, but that with "Medicare for All" eventually, providers will remain nominally and legally (if no longer effectively or actually) private. That prevents loss of lawsuit rewards for lawyers, and in fact it wouldn't be surprising to see ratcheting-upward mimimum liability insurance requirements eventually in health care "reform" legislation, even involving taxpayer subsidies of insurance (and raising and preserving lawsuit payouts).

    * * *

    "Heck, NO is the only weapon regular folks have against a corporation, government, etc."

    It bothers the children in left field, who can't handle the word "no" and who want their way, NOW!

    But the lib Dems' increasingly bad behavior (including Obama's) has increasingly repelled the adults.


    http://people-press.org/report/539/congressiona...

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1333/obama-approval...

    http://people-press.org/report/532/obamas-ratin...
  • DLS
    "Since you apparently oppose Pres. Obama's proposal for health care reform, do you prefer the status quo?"

    Nobody does, so don't join the many liars who say that opponents of the "reform" effort prefer or defend it.
  • DLS
    "'Time for a third way.'

    Ya know, I used to hold out hope for that. Not anymore."

    [chuckle] And what should we have expected in this case?


    http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=128&subid=1...
  • father time:

    I am uncertain what you mean about salary to q-tip ratios. America is the only sue happy country in the world. Everywhere else if they remove the wrong leg well then thats just too bad. Drug costs are marked up in some cases 100x more in america. (especially for cancer treatment) . That's why big pharam cut one of the first deals with obama to help with his new healthcare. notice how the white house won't release the names of any visitors this spring involved in that wonderful preplanned backdoor screwing of the american tax payer. The drug business is 30 percent more profittable than the next biggest industry in this country. These pigs are raping the system. And tell me why obama made his reform so sweet for labor unions? How does that help the cost of healthcare in america? You can solve a problem only when you treat the symptoms. Obama is using the liberal idealism of the democratic party to to pretend to help those without insurance, but in reality he is feeding big business and organized labor in yet another piece of highway robbery littigation. Its chicago politics at its best. To get what he wants (single payer) he must buy off his opposition (Big pharma, big insurance, and labor unions) but I don't think he minds. After all they did help get him elected.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Actually what Clinton proved in the 90's was that you have to buy off some groups to piss off others. Obama learned the lesson and made deals, they call them compromises...its what politicians are supposed to do to actually get stuff done. The other choice is that both sides can scream "slippery slope" at the top of their lungs and nothing gets done on anything, I call it the Reagen era.
  • Well sky father here's an idea. How about washington actually passes a law that helps the people and not the special interests. How about they actually reform healthcare ionstead of prtending to. How about they fix something without a built in unsustainable cost after 8-yearsw? Healthcare reform is about about protecting the health of th american people not the wallets special interests (ama, aarp, seiu, big pharma, legionsof lawyers and their frivolous lawsuits). What you call a deal I call selling out the american people. Whats the point in getting stuff done if you get it done wrong?
  • Leonidas
    Yeah, if you also condemn the signs and clutter against President Bill Clinton and condemn outright Rush Limbaugh, G.Gordon Liddy and the like.

    You people started this crap.


    This stuff has been going on since the days of the Federalist and Democratic-Republican.

    Someone needs to study history and take a nap.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    See we live in a Republic, no not the type you were taught about in school involving a nation of laws. This is Plato's type Republic where we all look at the shadows on the wall and those people you noted that always get the pay out they are the ones with real votes. That is how this country was designed, freedom in trade for us not attacking the wealthy and landed classes stuff. Nothing short of a revolution will change this. I think it would be a wonderful idea and all but again this is our system and how it works at its best. I know it sounds depressing but reality tends to be a bitch. Every program or safety net we have in this country benefits a handful of people at the top while giving the absolute minimum of help required and is underfunded while we cut taxes for the wealthy and landed classes, please tell me if you know of a time our Gov did not work this way. I think it will be a long search though since this is always how it has worked and thats because this is what it was designed for. The landed gentry and the wealthy WERE our nations founding fathers, the men who backed them and kept them in power WERE the landed gentry and wealthy. Our choices judging by history is to cut deals or walk away with nothing but a tax bill to pay for the programs wall street and the bankers prefer to make money off of. It reminds me of the early Reagen era when everyone wanted him to go after the Fed and corruption, he did not and after the horror abated everyone forgot that our system is a giant ponzi scheme built on some amazing words that they sometimes are forced to adhere to since they were enshrined in law and life went on. All going after the special interest groups will get is a death to anything they want to pass since they have the ad dollars to sink it. If you dont want any program then by all means demand that they be clean since that has never actually worked in this country and in my opinion never will with our current political structure. If you want a program you take a bite of the shit sandwich which is not a deal between the ideology of the right or left no matter what they say, its a deal between the "investor" class and everyone else. Sadly only the investor class understands that.
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