Newest Hero To Some: Rep. Joe Wilson Who Yelled “You Lie” At Obama

asdfasdf.jpgAn appointment in L.A. for non-blogging business meant that I’d miss part of President Obama’s speech on health care but I knew I could catch at least some of it on the radio. Switching the dial, I heard always-lively conservative talker Mark Levin talking over Obama’s speech, making sarcastic negative comments throughout. So I switched to trusted news radio KNX for the unfiltered speech — but only heard part of it.

Then, when my business was through, I turned on the radio again and heard one talk show host talk with admiration about a man named Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina.

Who was this man who this host seemed to hold in such awe and esteem? What did he do that caused the host to seem so close to openly praising him, but just falling a tad short? What did he say that seemingly overshadowed some of Obama’s speech? Just what had I missed??

Wilson, this host said, was saying what he himself and others wanted to say. And, then, finally I learned: Wilson had shouted “You lie!” to President Barack Obama during Obama’s speech. Finally, I arrived home to check the weblogs and discover that to some writers Wilson is now the man of the hour.

Move over Joe the Plumber, you now have Wilson who injected in the usually respectful setting of a Presidential address some of what Joe the Plumber usually toils to remove.

It is truly hard to find a parallel in our history for another time when some partisans have begun to substitute such sheer, unadulterated hatred, resentment and emotional rage into a political process that has been known — and respected — around the world for its vigorous, spirited, and often aggressive opposition that (traditionally) operated within certain norms.

It’s as if a whole segment of America now needs to take Valerian Root — or Valium. Think about it: some now consider it actually admirable that a sitting member of Congress shouted “You lie!” in the middle of a Presidential speech. So much for the norms of a Presidential address to Congress..

Ironically. some of the folks who now consider Wilson an apparent political role model — probably someone they’d love to have their kids watch if he delivered a televised speech into classrooms — are among those who only a few years ago talked about Bush derangement syndrome and slapped that label on not just those truly deranged about Bush but on those simply critical of Bush.

The reaction to Obama on the part of some of his partisan foes is now making Bush derangement syndrome look like a hot and heavy Dawson’s Creek romance.

Here are the bottom lines:

1. The House and Senate have always had a certain decorum and there has been an institutional respect for Presidents who speak before it. You will find few instances of Presidents being heckled so bluntly and directly by an opposition member. And there is probably no precedent in the history of Congress where a member of Congress shouted out “You lie!” One LA talk show host tried to justify and rationalize it by talking lovingly of Britain’s tradition of the PM being grilled by shouting opposition members. Pure spin: Americans Senators and House members have never behaved in this manner towards any Presidents of either party.

2. Every day it seems the bar is being lowered on how some Americans address those who see things differently. You have to demonize and detest them; you can’t just assertively debate or challenge them.

3. Ben Smith, of The Politico — an online publication that can hardly be called a hotbed of socialism, liberalism, Marxism or part of the Obama spin machine — says Wilson was flat out WRONG (we won’t use the “l” word since Wilson believes what he shouted and most likely won’t let facts get in the way of his beliefs):

A loud voice from the Republican side of the hall answered, “You lie!” — my colleague Glenn Thrush reports it was Rep. Joe Wilson (R – S.C.) — drawing a second “It’s not true,” from Obama and a shake of Nancy Pelosi’s head.

The bill is designed to exclude those immigrants, though some Republicans have called for more explicit bans on funding for illegal immigrants and have claimed the bill will funnel money to illegal immigrants.

FactCheck.org described those claims as “false” and noted that one version of the legislation already includes an explicit bar on federal funding for illegal immigrants’ health care.

And — the way American politics operates — I fully expect to get emails demonizing FactCheck.org and The Politico.

But that’s the way it is now in American politics: the norms of even rough traditional American political battle are being cast off by some now as easily as a reptile casts off old skin.

Wilson shouted “You lie.”But some Americans most assuredly felt like shouting to him: “You embarrass.”

Meanwhlie, Wilson has apologized to Obama — but he’s now a hero in some quarters.

So look for Wilson to be a highly sought after guest and talking head now on Fox News and on Rush, Sean and Glenn’s shows.

If his political career sours, he’ll probably get his own TV or radio show (why not? It worked for Mark Foley..)

But if he appears on Levin’s show, don’t expect Levin to talk over him.

Here’s the You Tube of the incident:
YouTube Preview Image

Here’s some more reaction:
Daphne Eviatar, The Washington Independent:

I guess Rep. “Joe” Wilson (R-S.C.) — actually, Addison Graves Wilson, Sr. — found out about that secret Democratic plot to provide all illegal immigrants with free health care.

What else could explain his outburst — “You Lie!” — during President

Obama’s speech on health care reform, responding to the president’s statement that “the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally”?

Perhaps Wilson believes that illegal immigrants ought not get emergency medical treatment, which is the only medical benefit they might qualify for — when they show up in a hospital on the verge of death, for example.

Or maybe it’s just because Wilson’s last campaign was supported by the Americans for Legal Immigration PAC — a restrictionist group that supports deporting all illegal immigrants in the United States rather than offering any opportunities for legalization, or “amnesty.”

The New York Time’s Gail Collins:

Let me go out on a limb and say that it is not a good plan to heckle the president of the United States when he’s making a speech about replacing acrimony with civility….

Most of the Republicans listening to Barack Obama’s health care address Wednesday night followed the normal rule about sitting in stony silence while the president’s party leaps up and down in rapturous applause. But there were a few exceptions, notably Joe Wilson, a member of Congress from South Carolina who loudly called the president a liar.

This was when Obama said illegal immigrants would not be covered by health care reform. It seemed like a pretty tame remark for so much disrespect, given all the recent uproar over the president’s alleged ability to brainwash elementary school students.

You might have expected Wilson to hold his tongue and wait to see if Obama would yell “Marxism is a good thing!” and send the commerce committee racing off to give workers control over the means of production.

Newsweek’s The Gaggle blog:

No doubt emotions are often heated during these joint sessions with the president and members of Congress, but decorum typically rules—except for tonight, apparently. In an interview with CNN afterwards, Sen. John McCain trashed Wilson’s heckling and urged him to apologize. “Totally disrespectful,” McCain said. A little over an hour after the speech, Wilson did just that, issuing a statement of regret….

….Now’s he’s a trending topic on Twitter and Google and some critics are vowing to contribute money to his Democratic opponent in what already looks like a tough 2010 race. And for the record, Wilson was wrong: HR 3200, the health care bill under debate in the House, explicitly prohibits coverage for illegal immigrants.

One thing is for sure: Wilson’s outburst didn’t do the GOP any favors tonight, particularly against a backdrop of a speech in which Obama went after his critics to either put up or shut up on health care reform. It completely overshadowed the official Republican response to Obama’s speech.

The Nation:

The words “you lie” will live in infamy for Joe Wilson, the overheated Republican Congressman who shouted at President Obama during his address to a joint session of Congress on Wednesday. Beyond criticism and a swift apology, the incident has already provided a fundraising bonanza for Wilson’s opponent, Rob Miller, a Democrat and Marine Corps veteran.

Miller raised over $50,000 in just a few hours after Wilson’s outburst, after activists and small donors flooded his page on ActBlue. Bloggers and readers at Daily Kos, a popular liberal blog, also used the site to instantly create a dedicated fundraising page highlighting the incident. The portal, titled “Defeating the man who yelled ‘liar’ at Obama: Goodbye Rep Joe Wilson,” has already raised $35,000 for Wilson from over 1,050 individual donors.

PREDICTION: In the way our politics now operates, expect some conservatives and talk show hosts to start raising money for Wilson now that progressives are raising money for his opponent.
A top Obama advisor responds with humor:

David Axelrod, one of President Obama’s chief advisors, responded to Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) outburst during the President’s address to Congress. Axelrod joked that he reluctantly accepted that Wilson will not be on board with the President’s plan

But perhaps the most perceptive commentary comes from Time Magazine — which says Wilson gave Obama an incredible gift. So we’ll quote that one here a bit more extensively:

Those words cut in politics. When directed at the President of the United States, during a prime time address to the nation no less, they cut deep.

So when Rep. Joe Wilson, a little known Republican and Army reserve veteran from South Carolina shouted them at the nation’s commander-in-chief on the night of Sept. 9, heads snapped. The House Chamber took a collective gasp. Nancy Pelosi, sitting behind Obama, tensed and scowled as if she had just witnessed a crime, her disgust unhidden.

Even Obama, who had just dismissed conservative claims that illegal immigrants would be able to take advantage of health-care reform, was taken aback. He looked to his left, adjusted his arm, part nervous twitch, part macho posturing, and shot back at Wilson, “That’s not true.” And there, for a moment, the nation watched two men, elected to lead, call each other the worst thing in politics — dishonorable deceivers.

At the moment Wilson exploded, the outburst seemed like an assault on the President. Soon afterwards, it was clear that it had been a gift. Wilson had, in an emotional expression, proven Obama’s point: the summer of town halls had been less a discussion than a circus, a forum where misinformation was vindicated by passion, where disrespect was elevated as a virtue. Now the circus had come inside Congress.

May I use a word I seldom use?

“DITTO.”

UPDATE: The Washington Post’s Dana Milibank says Wilson was not the only Republican who behaved badly — that it was not the party’s finest hour. Read it in full. He has this tidbit at the end

An incensed White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel went up to GOP Reps. Roy Blunt (Mo.) and Paul Ryan (Wis.) to complain about the outburst. “No president has ever had that happen,” Emanuel said. “My advice is he apologize immediately. You know my number.”

Wilson did as Emanuel advised. After all that shouting, it’s a wonder he wasn’t too hoarse to place the call.

Fourth Bottom Line: This will play well with the GOP’s talk radio political culture base (which the LA Times Tim Rutten now also expands to talk radio and Internet) but it won’t play well with many Americans, including many thoughtful Republicans who are not part of the talk radio political culture GOP wing.

114 Comments

  1. Wilson wasn't just making stuff up.

    http://www.cis.org/IllegalsAndHealthCareHR3200

    Although the bill states illegal immigrants are not to benefit from the new affordability credits, this prohibition is without an enforcement mechanism. Congress voted down an amendment in committee that would have required the use of the SAVE program. Almost all other means-tested programs of the kind found in HR 3200 require the use of SAVE. As it now stands, the bill has a ban on illegal immigrants, but Congress has chosen to leave that ban unenforced. As a result, the nearly seven million uninsured illegal immigrants with qualifying incomes could receive affordability credits under the bill, creating billions of dollars in costs to taxpayers. If the final version of health care reform includes a public option plan and if illegal immigrants enroll in that program instead of receiving affordability credits, the costs would be less for taxpayers. Nonetheless, if the government became the direct insurer of illegal immigrants, the cost of covering them would still run into the billions of dollars.

    If Congress was serious about not paying for illegals having their healthcare costs covered the would not have voted down use of the SAVE program. Until they approve use of it, democrats are just blowing smoke.

  2. Oh and here is a Conservate reaction from Hot Air to add to the list of commentary:

    A conservative commentary

    “The culprit was South Carolina rep Joe Wilson, who felt moved to act when The One told what was, in fact, a lie. Although certainly not his biggest of the night: Where this jackass gets off lecturing Americans on civility after his cretinous cronies spent a month demagoging the hell out of every protester in sight is beyond me. You’re Mr. Clean, aren’t you, champ? And bottom-feeders like Harry Reid are your hatchet men. Nice work if you can get it.

    I’m told that his magic number of “47 million” uninsured Americans magically dropped to 30 million uninsured in this speech, presumably to omit the illegal immigrants who were inflating the tally.”

    – Allahpundit

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/09/video-gop…>

  3. Make sure you foward your links also about Wilson being correct to The Politico and Newsweek and other non-blog, non-ideological publications so they can run corrections. I see that some other mainstream news organizations are also reporting what these two have reported, and someone needs to set them all straight. I'm sure Glenn Beck will deliver an accurate account of all of this tomorrow, too. Be sure to post the iPod link in comments so we can all be enlightened.

  4. Will Levin suggest that Wilson shoot himself or his wife…

  5. joe wilson will be used as the loose cannon who plays the role of the ADHD child who faceitously 'blurts out truth to lies' until the Repubs regain some power and seats in Congress. Then, they will drop him on his head immediately by squeezing him out of positions of responsibility and gravitas, for he will then threaten their hold; he becomes a liability once his charming outbursts are no longer a parlay.

    A shill or a plant never is granted nobility, nor statesman status. The person fool enough to smile toothless and preening while the higher ups use him/ her, is absolutely on the way down the mountain without brakes.

    The mafia, jewish mafia, italian mafia, irish mafia, asian mafia have used these tactics since time out of mind, taking one of the lesser intellects amongst them, fanning their egos to get them to do their dirty work, so they can appear clean and step into powerful positions asap. Except in those mafias, they take the equivalent of Joe Wilson 'for a ride'… as we say where i grew up, three went out to the woods, two came back.

    Mr. Wilson will fall. The higher he is elevated for his garrulous ways, the father he will fall.

    Frankly, I feel sorry for him in a way. He doesnt see the handwriting on the wall. And his cohorts are counting on his blindness to continue unmediated… so he can be used and be smiling and thumping his chest like the village fool, in a glory that will be stripped away from him utterly, and not too far down the road.

    Seen it, and seen it, and seen it in the corporate world.

    dr.e

  6. Joe – we haven't agreed on a lot for a while, but I wholeheartedly agree that Wilson has brought shame on himself, and until and unless strong condemnation is forthcoming from Republican leasdership, upon the GOP as well.

    Ignore any aspect of the 'was what he said factually correct' angle. It was as disrespectful an act of contempt towards the office of the Presidency and of Congress as a body as I have can remember in my life.

    While there is strong partisan feelings in Washington and the country today, and has been historically in the past as well, I am unaware of any previous incident of this nature toward the President during a joint session.

  7. Leonidas also make sure you immediately inform the New York Times about their huge error in their story that just was posted on the web. Here is the link and the section you need to tell them is flat out wrong:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/us/politics/1
    Other Democrats said they did not want to dwell on the outburst or allow it to overshadow what they saw as an effective address by the president. But they also said it bolstered their contention that some Republicans were not interested in constructive dialogue, and they noted that Democratic plans specifically barred coverage for illegal immigrants.

    It's very important that you set Newsweek, The Politico and the Times straight that their reporting is incorrect and that they run retractions. As I noted, Glenn and Sean and Rush will have the facts tomorrow, I'm sure, just as surely as tree roots will fall from the sky.

  8. Note that in my post I NEVER day say all Republicans or all conservatives (I
    myself voted for Ronald Reagan and was a Republican before I became an
    independent voter).. Not all Republicans condone what is going on now. I
    know many thoughtful Republicans and they are aghast at some of what they
    see unfolding because it's ruining the image of a party for which they
    worked so hard. Some are now former Republicans and independent voters
    because of this.

  9. Nor did I imply you did Joe.

    I am the one saying he has brought shame on the GOP as a party IF the leadership fails to condemn his outburst. At least for now, that does seem to be happening.

  10. I continue to skip the distractions and focus instead on the only plan that I consider acceptable, single payer. No other “plan” or additions or subtractions is acceptable. I frankly would be willing to pay the employees below the level of supervisor, the same pay and benefits as they have now and be willing to send them home and not come back. The supervisors and stockholders can starve. I don't care.

    This national disgrace of not providing health care for every single person in america makes me want to puke.

    PS Ending the wars of aggression would more than pay for single payer and the insurance companies wage slaves payments.

  11. Leonidas also make sure you immediately inform the New York Times about their huge error in their story that just was posted on the web. Here is the link and the section you need to tell them is flat out wrong:

    Politico, Neweek and the NY Times….

    Done, done, and done.

  12. You gotta wonder about those wacky ultra-right reactionaries that will rather stick to the flat-out lie that illegals would be covered in the health plan (despite repeated proof otherwise) and play partisan politics rather than do what is best for the country and engage in a civil debate. What sort of fantasy land are they living in?

    But totally putting the facts of the matter aside, Wilson's cheap political theater stunt probably did more to help Obama in his debate more than anything Obama could ever say or do. By uttering those handful of words, the republicans immediately lost control of the debate, and lost the higher ground. Sure, there is a small segment of the knee-jerk politterati that will praise him as some sort of brazen hero (the same group that thought the faux-plumber was a great campaign spokesman), but I can only imagine the anger and disgust among the ranks of the republican leadership right now.

  13. Ignore any aspect of the 'was what he said factually correct' angle. It was as disrespectful an act of contempt towards the office of the Presidency and of Congress as a body as I have can remember in my life.

    I agree with AR here. There are standards of decorum in this setting that Wilson clearly violated.

    I'm not altogether convinced those standards and our protocol is a good thing. I'd love to see the kinds of exchanges between the two branches that are seen in the British parliament, for instance. Somehow I have the feeling that their ability to vent comments toward their opposition in ways that are quite sharp- but also often with good humor- are helpful. In our system, I think that people's well placed passions are hidden in our formal setting of respectful interchanges, which leads to other pathologies (recently, for instance, Van Jones apologized for past use of profanity to describe Rebpublicans- but pretty much everyone agreed that everyone uses that kind of language in describing their opponents in partisan settings. And I think that's true in politics- there isn't any love lost between opponents, and in some settings they let loose. My point is it would probably be healthier to be able to let loose in a forum where policy is being discussed between the two opposing sides- and do it with intelligence and wit, instead of profanity and epithets.

    All that aside though, we DO have a system where this setting was one of respect and decorum. Wilson violated the norms and should be called out for it. Glad he apologized and I think the heroism is greatly misplaced.

  14. mlhradio

    Please describe the mechanism or the means that will allow the government to deny coverage to illegal aliens. The federal government refuses to adopt any policy that will limit identify theft. The Obama Administration is cutting spending on border security, the Obama Administraiton refuses to deport illegal aliens.

    So please, point to the section and paragraph of any federal legislation or regulation that will allow an emergency room or hospital in El Paso, San Diego, or Laredo that will allow them to deny coverage to illegal aliens. I somehow doubt that you can find it.

  15. Joe,

    I guess as the Democratic Party become the one relevant political party and progressives in the U.S feel the need to defend every half-lie, deception, or vagueness that the Democratic bucket will get heavier and heavier. I guess when it becomes between demanding accountability or defending Democratic lies, we know what side Joe is now on.

    I remember when the left promised to not make the mistakes of the Republicans and hold the Obama Administration accountable for what the Obama administration said and did. I guess that was a lie too.

  16. I find British parliament refreshing. And I agree with you CS when you say “I'm not altogether convinced those standards and our protocol is a good thing.” Congress needs to get it out. Yell, holler, scream, rib, whatever. Because keeping it in seems to be causing way too much indigestion. Then maybe, once they “get it out” and are allowed to keep “getting it out” maybe they can REALLY work together on SOMETHING.

  17. Ignore any aspect of the 'was what he said factually correct' angle. It was as disrespectful an act of contempt towards the office of the Presidency and of Congress as a body as I have can remember in my life.

    I agree that Wilson was out of line, but Joe brought the issue of whether he was factually correct into his essay and it is fair game. While I respect factcheck.org, details are lacking of how illegal immigrants will be handled in the new health plan. As others have noted it is not clear how they will be kept from applying.

    With respect to emergency care, the majority of emergency care is not people showing up on death's door, it is minor stuff that could be handled in an office. Currently hospitals have to eat the charges on these patients and charge everyone else more to make up the difference. How the new health plan will solve this problem has not been defined to my knowledge. The left is being a bit glib implying there are no concerns related to illegal aliens.

  18. TSteel & CStanley – I get what you mean re: not sure we shouldn't be more like the British Parliament. But at a presidential address? I have a hard time with that one. I don't know. In part, you're suggesting that the entire definition of respect – from what we teach our kids all the way up through public officials and the military perhaps too – be changed/altered/made more flexible. I would ask, why? Why do we think that is necessary, why do we think that would be a good thing? I'm not sure that it ISN'T desirable – but I'm really concerned about the consequences of setting such a standard or replacing what we have expected with different expectations based on the ability to shout others down. Remember, Britain does, after all, have a much less capitalistic economy and less democratic political system than we do when it comes to their Parliament. I think we would have an awful lot to lose. But I'm interested to hear more.

    In other words – it SOUNDS like an interesting idea, but would we really want to substitute it permanently and at all levels? Haven't family values people often suggested that parents who are “liberals” or Democrats don't ride their kids hard enough in terms of how respect people?

    It's just totally up is down to me.

  19. The behavior of Joe Wilson was contemptible and disgraceful. Sadly it is a reflection of far too many republican sensiblities in this new century. It's one thing to disagree, but there is a time, place, and appropriate way to do so. I am heartened to know that some of our conservative contributors recognize such behavior is unacceptable, and are not interested in making excuses for it. I am now going to make a political contribution to the Rob Miller campaign. Congrats Mr. Wilson on doing your part to help set republican standards at near ground level.

  20. Leonidas:

    How predictable

  21. If Joe wants to make sure that illegal aliens don't get aid because the current proposal isn't specific enough for his tastes, why doesn't he present an amendment explicitly addressing his concerns and debate it on the floor on CSPAN? I think that's whats meant by a transparent, bi-partisan effort. I know this is crazy talk,

  22. “While I respect factcheck.org, details are lacking of how illegal immigrants will be handled in the new health plan. As others have noted it is not clear how they will be kept from applying”

    “Lacking details…not clear No reason to call the President a liar

  23. “But totally putting the facts of the matter aside, Wilson's cheap political theater stunt probably did more to help Obama in his debate more than anything Obama could ever say or do. By uttering those handful of words, the republicans immediately lost control of the debate, and lost the higher ground”

    How true!, just look at this morning's polls

  24. Good for you!
    Feel better now?

  25. Here you go DaGoat……..

    In its summary of the bill, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) states, “Under HR 3200, all legal permanent residents (LPRs), non-immigrants, and unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test … would be required to obtain health insurance.”1 Substantial presence is defined as having been in the United States for at least 31 days during the current year and at least 183 days during the current year and previous two years. No mention is made of legal status in the legislation for determining substantial presence.

  26. I was not surprised, but still disappointed, to see the silly overreaction among the kids re. Wilson.

    The GOP is on the sidelines on this issue — shouting, holding up signs (also like the Town Hall scenes of hype and selectivity we've been treated to from the desperate), or holding up their own legislation should have just been put in its proper place, were you more mature — it was pathetic.

    Obama (whose unusual speech decision, made out of desperation, was not questioned by his Herd) earned maybe a 50-60 on a scale of 100 last night (at least, among those who are both intelligent and honest). He was more clear and direct than the Dems in the House have been, and at least now we know what he claims to want from the Dems in Congress (he doesn't care about the GOP any more than Nanci Pelosi does). He engaged in little verbal tricks again that only fool his adoring Herd, the touchy-feely stuff about Washington being caring and nurturing was nauseating to those of us who are adults rather than children, and respectable rather than degenerate, the lie about “responsibility” when referring to employers providing health benefits (it's beyond the intellectual grasp of members of the Herd to note as well that this is the opposite of freeing people from the employer-based model of health care) was offensive to better people, and other little omissions and statements of how things are technically in force now rather than later (such as with immigrants benefiting from new federal action) are also beyond the loyal, faithful Herd's grasp — but some of us noticed all these details.

  27. DaGoat wrote: “I agree that Wilson was out of line, but Joe brought the issue of whether he was factually correct into his essay and it is fair game. While I respect factcheck.org, details are lacking of how illegal immigrants will be handled in the new health plan. As others have noted it is not clear how they will be kept from applying.:

    “How illegal immigrants will be handled in the new health plan”? Probably like they (and EVERYONE else) are handled in all current health plans… The first thing they do is ask you for is your health plan card!.. If you don't have it they check your name, last 4 of your social, and a few other questions to verify you have insurance. It's simple and it works.

    Shills like Leonidas grab at anything and everything to divert and distract… you might even say “lie”.

    As Dorian wrote: “How predictable”

  28. Good comments, dr. e

    By the way, according to this morning news, contributions to Wilson's campaign are going through the roof.

    What does that tell us about that segment of the Republican party that conveniently claim that Wilson 'blurts out truth to lies' ?

  29. “I'm not altogether convinced those standards and our protocol is a good thing. I'd love to see the kinds of exchanges between the two branches that are seen in the British parliament, for instance. “

    This is something I've touched on regarding a colleague and friend of mine in Seattle, who like me also prefers plain language, Strunk & White style, and direct language, to the point. To repeat what he said: There's less playing around there. “Goddammit, the gloves come off!” And they came off, refreshingly, and fluffy, muddy language was discarded, there in Seattle.

    (“Socialize yourself. Leave me alone.”)

  30. Where was his Obama/Joker sign? I must have missed that. Someone forgot to tell Joe about Parliamentary procedure and respect for the President during an address to a joint session of Congress. This was not a Town Hall. This isn't the UK Parliament's Happy Question time. How many people shouted that to Bush when he trotted out his made-up justification for going into Iraq?

  31. I have been Republican most my life, but this behavior lately by the GOP is out of hand. I am ashamed to say I am a Republican. The person who said the GOP is elevating “disrespect” to a virtue is right on target. From lying about death panels, throwing a fit about the President's speech to school kids, and now heckling the President during a speech to congress is all disrespect. And there was more disrespect going on last night besides Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst. Eric Cantor was texting through the whole speech, other GOP members were holding up signs and papers. There is a time and place for this but not at the Congress while the President is speaking. I won't teach my children this virtue of disrespect and neither wouyld anyone else.

  32. I wouldn't call that commentary, I'd call it insulting snark.

  33. you mean “Family Values” candidates like Duvall who ride Lobbyists?

    In all seriousness, people forget that our country has been dubbed “The Great Experiment” for a reason. We must not remain rigidly fixed to one single idea or we die in a classical mess, repeating the follies of Rome.

  34. Because it's easier to find fault and finger point then to actually come up with a counter-offensive. Mob mentality.
    Witness the profusion of suggestions that came from the GOP….anyone, anyone….4 pages, no hard data. No solutions. At least the Party of No is consistent in their intransigence.

  35. No “hard data” from the non-sponsors is your biting critique, huh? Where's the “hard data” form the sponsors? “Hundreds of billions in waste and inefficiency”………….and Obama can't even manage one tiny concrete example of it? “Only 5% will enroll in “exchange public option”…….wait, I thought Obama said there were 47 million uninsured?………so, only 2.3 million will do public option and the other 44.6 million will now magically buy private company insurance?

  36. “Lacking details…not clear No reason to call the President a liar

    I agree, that's why I said Wilson was out of line.

  37. Does Wilson represent all Republicans? No. Is he the current Republican mainstream? Yes. Look at the list of other actions by Republicans during the speech in the Milbank article. I saw the same thing as I watched the speech. I didn't know who the person with the sign was, though I knew it wasn't Wilson once I saw a picture of him this morning.

  38. *Scratches South Carolina off the vacation-planner*

    More than one way to skin a cat…lol… From now on any representative of any State that acts in a way that is counterproductive to our country, including clear disrespect for our elected Commander-In-Chief, will no longer get the majority's business.

    The [in]accuracy of your polling numbers may bite hard.

  39. I actually disagree with your and Dorian's premise, DaGoat. Even if Wilson had all the facts in the world available proving that what he shouted out was true, when, where and how he acted out is the issue.

    It is the lack of respect and decorum.

  40. @ HemmD

    If Joe wants to make sure that illegal aliens don't get aid because the current proposal isn't specific enough for his tastes, why doesn't he present an amendment explicitly addressing his concerns and debate it on the floor on CSPAN? I think that's whats meant by a transparent, bi-partisan effort. I know this is crazy talk,

    Read the first reply to this thread made by me. An ammendment was propossed to do just that, the democrats blocked it in committee.

  41. The Charlotte Observer (Joe Wilson's local paper) ran an article and a poll today to grade President Obama's Speech: S.C. lawmaker's catcall leads to criticism, apology

    Most of the article was simply and neutrally presented the facts of the matter though at the end it said:

    After the speech, the Columbia Democrat made no attempt to mask his fury.

    “Joe Wilson demonstrated his lack of manners by insulting the president on the floor of Congress,” Clyburn said. “It is the Joe Wilsons of the world that have drummed up this kind of poisonous climate that promotes disrespect rather than dialogue on difficult issues.”

    Clyburn linked Wilson to S.C. Gov. Mark Sanford, who faces a revolt by Republican legislators over an extramarital affair, failure to report some campaign donations and alleged improper travel.

    “I thought the governor had embarrassed us enough, but Mr. Wilson has gone even lower,” Clyburn said.

    Here's the poll: What grade would you give President Obama's health care address? With 2184 votes the results were:
    A – 1017 – 47%
    B – 202 – 9%
    C – 166 – 8%
    D – 303 – 14%
    F – 496 – 23%

    It appears that even in Red State NC the Obama Speech was successful.
    Notice that 23% gave Obama an F… the 23%ers just keep popping up and their number seems to stay the same.

  42. More than one way to skin a cat…lol… From now on any representative of any State that acts in a way that is counterproductive to our country, including clear disrespect for our elected Commander-In-Chief, will no longer get the majority's business. The [in]accuracy of your polling numbers may bite hard.

    Well lets see that would be a long list.

    California scratch
    New York Scratch
    Illiniois Scratch
    Oregon Scratch
    Nevada Scratch
    Pennsylvania Scratch
    etc.

    Look at the bright side, you still can mail order from Canada and Mexico.

  43. Well as for the “hundreds of billions in waste and inefficiency” Congress already got both aisles out of their seats for that for the past 7 years. See Iraq War, The. Billions unnacounted for doled out via Uncle Sam( our tax dollars to pay for the”Beta Upsilon Sigma Eta” party and no-bid contracts. It's documented.

    Hard data, you mean like actual dollars?

    “Other Provisions and Discussion Points

    Limit annual out-of-pocket expenses to $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family.”

    sounds fair to me. Not much in comparison to high deductibles from most insurance companies.
    If you're young it's not as much a hardship as if you had, say adult onset diabetes, physical disabilities etc.

    - and here's a break for small businesses:

    *Exempt businesses with payrolls below $250,000 from such requirement.
    ( re: Health Choices Administration on requiring businesses to offer health ins.)
    So the guy who owns the card shop on the corner isn't going to go under because of back breaking premiums by corporate sharks.

    First line item in the Wiki from Opencongress.org

    and as for the waste and inefficiency at this point we are dealing with hypotheticals. Let's also add Tort Reform to this mix, and elimination of pre-conditions and hey lets try having insurance companies, if they want to compete with Uncle Sam be able to cross state lines. So someone getting a great rate premium in Iowa can be reciprocated in New Jersey.

    But then again, all of this is contingent upon letting the lawyers self-police. Worked out well for Wall St. didn't it.

  44. casualobserver quoted: “Under HR 3200, all legal permanent residents (LPRs), non-immigrants, and unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test … would be required to obtain health insurance.”

    And tried to spin it into something it is not. When Illegals work they are “required” to pay income tax and social security tax, too… Money they (other than the boldest micro-minority) NEVER file returns on and will never collect.

    Weeks ago someone here quoted section and line of the wording used that prohibits illegals from obtaining health benefits. I'd look it up but it's not worth the time as you'd ignore it now as you ignored it then.

  45. “British Parliament. But at a presidential address? I have a hard time with that one.”

    This was meant to be Obama's teevee show. This in fact was a special speech, not a normal state-of-the-union address but a (questionable, but understandable, given the Dems' failures with health care) specific address about health care and the “need” [sic] to act boldly and quickly on it.

    As I wrote elsewhere, not one of the cluckers on NPR or CNN grasped the obvious and exploited it, that the shouting by Wilson, the one or two signs held aloft, the waving by Republicans of their own legislation the Dems have ignored in sidelining them and strong-arming one-party control of things, is reminescent of “town hall” meetings (until the Dems started avoiding them to avoid public opposition).

  46. “An amendment was proposed to do just that”

    An amendment also lets the public option provide abortions. “The [original House] bill doesn't pay for abortions” has always been a deliberate lie of omission. (More bizarre isn't merely that these people don't want to add to the deficit they have made most famous along with debt this year, but that “no Medicare trust funds will be used to pay for” the new health care effort. Calling Medicare a “sacred trust” was probably just aping Bill Clinton's sickening “sacred covenant” description of Social Security I had successfully predicted he'd say to the gullible some years ago.)

    “Does Wilson represent all Republicans? No. Is he the current Republican mainstream? Yes.”

    That's about the only misstatement that Obama neglected in his speech last night.

  47. Leonidas writes,

    “California scratch
    New York Scratch
    Illiniois Scratch
    Oregon Scratch
    Nevada Scratch
    Pennsylvania Scratch”

    *********

    *makes notations* Hey! Thanks for saving me the time on the search engine. In a hurry…got a boycott to go to…lol..

  48. “contributions to Wilson's campaign are going through the roof”

    So far, nobody taking the low road has shown the intellectual and historical reach to wonder aloud if anyone sent Wilson a cane.

    For those who need or would like relevent reading:

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/res

  49. Again, don't worry…I'm sure those June polls that showed 70% of the Public in favor of the public-option [go figure..lol] are all wrong now. You seem so sure of your numbers and the “real” support against the public option. So take those numbers to the bank pal.

    That number was a joke and I already discussed it. How about we go with recent polls anyhow?

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2

    A poll released today shows that 49 percent of Americans oppose “the health care reform plans being discussed in Congress,” while only 34 percent approve; 36 percent “strongly” oppose the plans while only 16 percent “strongly” support them. Furthermore, when asked what the president and Congress should now do about health care, 42 percent choose “scrap the current negotiations and start over from scratch” and 18 percent say leave our current health care alone — with only 39 percent saying they should keep working to pass something “by the end of the year.” So 60 percent prefer starting over or doing nothing to an Obama-style plan.

  50. Thank you for your reply, as generally non-responsive as it was.

    Prior spending is irrelevant to paying for the program going forward, and, if going forward, Obama plans to pay for his health insurance program by curtailing DoD spending, he certainly did not say so. Secondly, all of your subsequent points are indicative of program cost increases, not cost savings.

    Your last paragraph finally touches on relevancy. I accept your proclamation that it is all hypothetical. It is especially hypothetical to assume the non-liberal public will think the same federal government that manages a program that is now rife with hundreds of billions in waste and inefficiency will have the competency to identify it and eliminate it without further concrete evidence of such.

  51. Leo

    “Read the first reply to this thread made by me. An amendment was proposed to do just that, the democrats blocked it in committee.”

    Why don't you look at the Save program and its existing federal requirements. Redundancy is not improvement.

    “Q: For what programs do benefit providers have to verify an applicant’s immigration status?

    Answer: Verification is mandatory for Federal public benefit programs. State and local agencies may choose to verify immigration status for applicants for state and local public benefit programs.”

    How about the fact that insurance companies are considered as a government contract:

    “Government contract means any agreement or modification thereof between any contracting agency and any person for the purchase, sale, or use of personal property or nonpersonal services. The term “personal property,” as used in this definition, includes supplies, and contracts for the use of real property (such a lease arrangements), unless the contract for the use of real property itself constitutes real property (such as easements). The term “nonpersonal services” as used in this definition includes, but is not limited to, the following services: Utilities, construction, transportation, research, insurance, and fund depository. “

    Leo, wouldn't you consider health care assistance a “Federal public benefit program?” Try to make it sound nefarious as much as you want, but duplicating SAVE requirements seems rather unneeded unless you're paranoid.

  52. Let's stick to the issue raised.

    Here is Obama's quote…….There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

    So, since Obama is pretty emphatically saying illegals cannot obtain any greater access to, or funding for, health insurance as a result of his program, the point really is, the existing language in HR 3200 must be struck as it now presently does apply to unauthorized aliens……..which is why Wilson's comment is demonstrably supported albeit inappropriately raised.

  53. Sticking to the issue? I was sticking to the issue… You're the one doing the spinning.

    The issue is whether or not unauthorized aliens would receive health care benefits. Would you quit spinning for a minute and reply to my comment or are you going to pull a Leonidas?

  54. The latest poll has destroyed, as predicted, the idiotic “83% love the public option” lie (along with “health care is a right,” etc., the fringists display on their signs). Support for the public option is at 55 per cent. The public actually opposes the complete, overall Obama plan. Maybe his speech last night will help dispel some of the many concerns, misstatements and defects and all last night.

    “the point really is, the existing language in HR 3200 must be struck as it now presently does apply to unauthorized aliens”

    Don't forget the amendments, such as with abortion being provided by a public option health plan, as well as the many misstatement of fact by omission and temporal gimmickry (aimed at the Herd, who is so easily fooled), such as “if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor” (at least, prior to the implementation of the new Dem health care plan, at which point you may lose your insurer as well as your doctor). There were so many misstatements and gimmicks in there — are his faithful that bad?

  55. “Obama plans to pay for his health insurance program by curtailing DoD spending, he certainly did not say so.”

    It should be acknowledged that Barney Frank has been loudly ready and eager for this money shift.

  56. Back to your comment.

    Here is Obama's quote…….There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

    It seems you missed the words “the reforms I'm proposing”. Did Obama propose or write HR3200? Did Obama at anytime say HR3200 was the bill he was talking about?

    You, and your ilks, spin on this is just more BS. You see that you lost ground in this debate last night and your'e feeling the need to produce more and more patently false and intentionally misleading statements to hang on but you can't sway the opinions of the majority of America who want health care reform with lies.

    Shill all you want but as President Obama said last night “I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it.” If you want to debate this issue fine debate the issue otherwise I won't waste anymore time on your talking points and spin.

  57. My understanding is that the amendment the Republicans were proposing would make it too difficult for actual citizens to get care. So, adult Republicans wouldn't text, hold up signs, and scream that the President was a liar, they would modify their amendment to address Democratic concerns.

  58. In that case, when you have the text of “Obama's bill”, we'll continue.

  59. Like Vice President Biden, I expect health care reform to pass before Thanksgiving. I wonder if we'll look back in twenty years and say: What was all THAT ruckus about?

  60. “Did Obama propose or write HR3200? Did Obama at anytime say HR3200 was the bill he was talking about?”

    He has constantly associated himself with HR 3200 and commingled himself and “his position” with this legislation, just as earlier he, for example, agitated on behalf of the lunatic House climate bill that “we need.”

    “You, and your ilks, spin on this is just more BS.”

    The “spin” and bullshit remains almost exclusively on the side of the lib Dem health care proponents, including much of what was in Obama's speech, as I have correctly identified and listed on this site on a number of threads, as well as in the ridiculously hyped lies about public support for the public option, for example, and the lies and slander directed at the mainstream, much-more-intelligent as well as routinely more-moral opposition to this effort and other misconduct by the lib Dems this year.

  61. The only real difference I see here is someone in the GOP finally confronted Obama directly, instead of having the right wing noise machine do it behind his back.

    Yes, its disgraceful and uncivil, but so is calling him a Marxist and a Socialist when he is neither.
    The moderate voices of the Republican party need to make their objections known to these outrageous tactics, as Laura Bush so candidly did the other day. Otherwise the GOP will lose credibility with many of its followers.

  62. For most of our existence as a nation others around the world watched our democratic process and said “We want to be like America”. When they see what has happened to the quqality and civility of our debate over the past two decades, incluing Joe Wilson's disrespect of the office of the president, one has to wonder how many around the world still feel that way.

    We were once a shining light…now little more that a flickering flourescent bulb illuminating a never ending barroom brawl.

  63. The Charlotte Observer (Joe Wilson's local paper) ran an article and a poll today to grade President Obama's Speech: S.C. lawmaker's catcall leads to criticism, apology

    Incorrect. The Charlotte Observer is from Charlotte NC. Joe Wilson's local paper would be The State.

  64. The latest poll has destroyed, as predicted, the idiotic “83% love the public option” lie (along with “health care is a right,” etc., the fringists display on their signs). Support for the public option is at 55 per cent.

    Silly boy…

    From pollingreport.com: CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Sept. 9, 2009. N=427 adults nationwide who watched the presidential speech. MoE ± 5.

    18% of the respondents who participated in tonight's survey identified themselves as Republicans, 45% identified themselves as Democrats, and 37% identified themselves as independents

    “What was your overall reaction to President Obama's speech tonight: very positive, somewhat positive, somewhat negative or very negative?”

    very positive – 56%, somewhat positive – 21%, somewhat negative – 12%, very negative – 9

    “Do you think the policies being proposed by Barack Obama will move the country in the right direction or the wrong direction?”

    9/9 Right Direction – 70% Wrong Direction – 27% Unsure – 3%
    9/5 Right Direction – 60% Wrong Direction – 35% Unsure – 4%

    I guess the key words to the people polled was “adults” and “nationwide” :-)

  65. Sticking to the issue? I was sticking to the issue… You're the one doing the spinning.

    The issue is whether or not unauthorized aliens would receive health care benefits. Would you quit spinning for a minute and reply to my comment or are you just going to pull a Leonidas?

    Yes for God's sake don't pull a Leonidas and post facts.on the topic!!!!

    Wilson wasn't just making stuff up.

    http://www.cis.org/IllegalsAndHealthCareHR3200

    Although the bill states illegal immigrants are not to benefit from the new affordability credits, this prohibition is without an enforcement mechanism. Congress voted down an amendment in committee that would have required the use of the SAVE program. Almost all other means-tested programs of the kind found in HR 3200 require the use of SAVE. As it now stands, the bill has a ban on illegal immigrants, but Congress has chosen to leave that ban unenforced. As a result, the nearly seven million uninsured illegal immigrants with qualifying incomes could receive affordability credits under the bill, creating billions of dollars in costs to taxpayers. If the final version of health care reform includes a public option plan and if illegal immigrants enroll in that program instead of receiving affordability credits, the costs would be less for taxpayers. Nonetheless, if the government became the direct insurer of illegal immigrants, the cost of covering them would still run into the billions of dollars.

  66. It's official now.

    Rush Limbaugh, the spokesman for the Republican party, has just declared Joe Wilson a national hero, and derided every Republican leader who disagrees with Wilson's act of courage.

    Discusssion is over

  67. Any Cynthia McKinney is for single payer, so what? Just because some wing nut or moonbat says something does't mean that people who agree or disagree with them are moonbats or wingnuts on that fact alone. Ad hominems don't prove much.

  68. This is at least the third time you've spammed a link to CIS. CIS whose Executive Director is xenophobe Mark Krikorian. Here's one of Mark Krikorian's 'non-partiasn' rants.

    It's probably wist to look at where Leonidas gets his “facts” (sic) before you give them credence.

  69. Okay, just want to make sure I get this right. Obama's plan as it stands will not alter how we deal with illegals getting treatment in this country, which is as I understand from what I've read over a few places, is that the federal government will reimburse a hospital for giving treatment.
    Now, as long as this is all correct, and someone tell me if i'm wrong, i have this question for those who are totally against any federal funding at all for illegals when it comes to healthcare:
    If someone walks into a hospital, and they are not of legal status, but they need emergency treatment in a life or death situation, do you support sticking the hospital with the bill and taking the loss, or just letting that person die?

  70. Let me just ask a question here. If someone comes in critically injured and can't prove citizenship, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DOCTORS TO DO? Let her die? Well?

  71. “Silly boy”

    Mirror talk. But much of what Obama was saying other than the essentials was aimed at that childish as well as child-like Herd, after all. Giving the childish quite a boost, no doubt, and maybe some temporarily relief from their current desperation and low-IQ anger at any and all opposition…

  72. DLS, I'm so tired of your “childish” comments. You think you're so smart and grown up and everyone who doesn't believe as you do is “childish” and “stupid”. How arrogant.

  73. “someone in the GOP finally confronted Obama directly”

    Many have confronted Obama and other Dems directly. This instance was in poor form, though the real lesson taught already by Wilson isn't what he did, but already how it is being idiotically hyped (including on this liberal Web site) by a number of lefties, as I predicted would happen. (I doubt few of them will grasp the meaning of “the cane,” South Carolina, and the beating of Sumner and decorum.)

    In the long run, the overreaction to Wilson is ridiculous hype (though predictable, as the health care effort is the worst of the Dems' missteps this year and this special speech by Obama, full of appeals of the worst kind, and misstatements, to the faithful Herd to reassure it more than to appeal to more substantial intellectual and moral critics), the Wilson shouting (the Herd often says “yelling” these days) and other protesting by the GOP was as ignored and shunted aside otherwise as the GOP has been all year, some measure of damage control was achieved because Obama, warts and all, was more respectable than the effort by other Dems, and now we'll await the workings of the Senate in addition to those of the kiddies in the House, and learn if the Baucus bill will be used as the basis for new legislation, or the House bill (3200, including the amendments so many among the Herd neglect).

  74. The State not the Charlotte Observer how foolish of me! Let me rephrase my comment:

    The State (Joe Wilson's local paper) ran an article and a poll today to grade President Obama's Speech: “Instant fame for S. C. Republican who heckled Obama

    Joe's HOME TOWN paper's poll asked: “

    Will Congressman Joe Wilson's remark affect South Carolina“
    Here are the current results
    Yes – 81% ( 3536 votes)
    No – 19% ( 825 votes)

    Total: 4361 votes

    And here is a few excerpts from the story:

    Wilson, a former senior Justice Department lawyer under President Ronald Reagan, delivered his catcall when Obama said his health-care plan wouldn’t extend benefits to illegal immigrants.

    Heads swiveled in the ornate House chamber as senators, representatives, Cabinet members and other dignitaries turned to see who had broken decades of solemn protocol for the rare occasions when the president addresses a joint session of Congress.

    ''(It’s) totally disrespectful,'' McCain said on CNN’s ''Larry King Live'' program. ''(There’s) no place for it in that setting or any other.”

    U.S. House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn, a Columbia Democrat and a close political ally of Obama, shot Wilson a furious glance after he yelled out.

    ''Joe Wilson demonstrated his lack of manners by insulting the president on the floor of Congress,'' Clyburn said. ''It is the Joe Wilsons of the world that have drummed up this kind of poisonous climate that promotes disrespect rather than dialogue on difficult issues.''

    ''I thought the governor had embarrassed us enough, but Mr. Wilson has gone even lower,'' Clyburn said.

    U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy, a Vermont Democrat, said: ''I've been here 35 years, seven presidents. I've never seen anything like that. I talked to some of my Republican friends. They're mortified.”

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention Leonidas it's nice to see his REAL hometown paper thinks he's a jerk, too.

  75. “Childish…arrogant”

    Don't like being shown you're wrong, do you? Tsk, tsk.

    Obama has managed some damage control and shown us what he'd prefer to see, but this is far from over.

  76. Let me just ask a question here. If someone comes in critically injured and can't prove citizenship, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT DOCTORS TO DO? Let her die? Well?

    They should treat her.

    Now my question. An illegal alien comes into the the ER because she sprained her ankle 3 weeks ago and it still hurts. What do you suggest we do?

  77. It was a mistake trying to reply to your misinformation on poll standings and you totally ignored the information and played your low IQ game. You failed, as you always fail, to answer anyone who questions your position so I will now longer try too.

    I say to you as I said to casualobserver earlier: “Shill all you want but as President Obama said last night “I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it.” If you want to debate this issue fine debate the issue otherwise I won't waste anymore time on your talking points and spin.”

  78. Easy. Treat her. Deport her.

  79. DaGoat wrote: “Now my question. An illegal alien comes into the the ER because she sprained her ankle 3 weeks ago and it still hurts. What do you suggest we do?”

    Well after health reform is passed she wouldn't go to the ER, she'd go to her own doctor. And NO not a public option doctor but a doctor that her cheap (inexpensive) private insurance company told her to see. You see, she was required by law to have health insurance and she was not here legally. As she didn't have the documentation to get on the 'Public Option' she bought private insurance so as not to have one more reason to be found out.

    It's the status quo that forces a scenario like you describe and we are all paying for it. This has to be changed.

  80. “I say to you as I said to casualobserver earlier”

    Make up whatever you want, and throw your limbs around while you're at it.

    Obama needed to make this speech for damage control and recovery, it was okay and a success insofar as this purpose was met, and it's regrettable that he treated everyone in the speech as little children with misstatements and mushy garbage in addition, which raises the ire of those susceptible to that approach when it is mentioned, but which says more about them than it does about the correct observations and reporting of such things.

    Sadly, now the stupid hype about Wilson is likely going to last for several days among the kiddie crowd.

  81. In an earlier comment, I said:

    “By the way, according to this morning news, contributions to Wilson's campaign are going through the roof.

    What does that tell us about that segment of the Republican party that conveniently claim that Wilson 'blurts out truth to lies' ?”

    I was wrong. It is actually contributions to Wilson's Democratic opponent that are going through the roof…$200,000in the last couple of hours.

    As to “What does that tell us about that segment of the Republican party that conveniently claim that Wilson 'blurts out truth to lies' ?” I retract, apologize and revise it to say:

    “Way to go Democrats.”

    DLS: See how easy it is to admit to a mistake, apologize and retract?

  82. Sorry Leonidas and DLS you seem to not only far out on a limb on this one but you also seem to be pretty lonely out there.

  83. her cheap (inexpensive) private insurance company

    I thought there were no inexpensive private insurance companies?? They're going to magically appear as soon as this legislation goes into effect?

  84. I thought there were no inexpensive private insurance companies??

    There aren't… NOW.

    They're going to magically appear as soon as this legislation goes into effect?

    No not 'majically' but part of the legislation proposed last night would require Health Insurance Companies to provide them… You didn't get a chance to listen to the speech last night?

  85. Reposting this here as well since we have so many threads on the same thing:

    Dems heckled Bush, but Wilson was different
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0909/

    Joe Wilson's 15 minutes of infamy notwithstanding, Democrats were pretty rough on George W. Bush during a joint sessions a few years back.

    Two examples:

    In 2004, Democrats delivered a “Chorus Of Boos” during Bush's Bush’s State Of The Union when he called for renewal of the Patriot Act., according to the Washington Times.

    In 2005, Dems howled, hissed and shouted “No!” when Bush pushed for Social Security reform in the SOU: “Foreshadowing the contentiousness of the coming debate, Democrats broke decorum and booed twice,” according to the National Journal.

    At the time, CNN's Bill Schneider remarked, “It was unusual. I had never heard it at least at that level before. The Democrats clearly were booing, heckling, saying no when the president talked about the crisis in Social Security.”

    Moreover, Obama's claim that illegal immigrants won't be covered — which sparked Wilson's outburst — while technically accurate, doesn't quite tell the entire story. Some of the bills being considered in the House and Senate contain provisions locking in local statutes that prevent providers from inquiring about immigration status prior to treatment. And illegals are treated, and are bound to be treated, in ERs, covered by local, state and federal uninsured pools.

    So why the outcry over Wilson?

    I think it's because Congressional Republicans have used the health care debate to vent a deeper, uglier contempt for Obama that verges on the personal.

    They've done little to discourage the party's fringes from questioning Obama's legitimacy to serve through the birther movement, fitness to govern through the death panel canard — and even the territorial integrity of the US under a Democratic president through Texas Gov. Rick Perry's flirtation with secession.

    Anger may stoke the base at town halls — and goose Glenn Beck — but it just looks ugly on the national stage.

  86. I wasn't able to listen to it, and have heard/seen excerpts only. Can you refer me to a portion of transcript that you're talking about?

  87. Certainly… Here's a link to “Full Text: Obama's Health Reform Speech” the link also has a “listen” link on the page.

    The speech should be a must read/must hear for everyone on every side of this debate… It's kind of hard arguing about something you don't know.

  88. Uh, OK, Steve, I've read it now but I still don't see what you were referring to. The only part that mentions low cost insurance option that would immediately go into effect was for people who are uninsurable due to people with preexisting conditions- not for people who just generally can't afford health insurance. What am I missing?

  89. CS, there is only one way to assure that 100% of the population is covered, and that's single-payer. Since we apparently won't have that, there will be some who refuse to buy insurance, but fewer than the current millions.

    I'm not thrilled with mandatory insurance, but as I've never gone without, it won't affect me personally. I'm really not sure what you're challenging here. As an opponent of both public option and single payer, I assumed you would love a bill that forces everyone to contribute to your favorite charity <g>. Now you seem to be arguing that there is no low cost option from private insurance, and since you don't like any of the alternatives, what exactly DO you think is a “low cost option” for those less fortunate than you?

  90. Easy. Treat her. Deport her.

    You're suggesting medical personnel and facilities be required to report illegal aliens? Not a bad suggestion but I doubt it could ever get passed.

  91. We will do this by creating a new insurance exchange – a marketplace where individuals and small businesses will be able to shop for health insurance at competitive prices. Insurance companies will have an incentive to participate in this exchange because it lets them compete for millions of new customers. As one big group, these customers will have greater leverage to bargain with the insurance companies for better prices and quality coverage.

    [...]

    And all insurance companies that want access to this new marketplace will have to abide by the consumer protections I already mentioned.

    [...]

    I believe a broad consensus exists for the aspects of the plan I just outlined: consumer protections for those with insurance, an exchange that allows individuals and small businesses to purchase affordable coverage, and a requirement that people who can afford insurance get insurance.

  92. You missed this part though, Steve:
    This exchange will take effect in four years, which will give us time to do it right.

    So the mandate takes effect right away, but all of the features that are supposed to bring about lower cost policies don't take effect until four years for now. The only group that he mentioned giving an immediate option for are those who can't get reasonably priced insurance due to preexisting conditions.

    All I'm saying is that the illegals who don't have insurance now won't have any greater ability to purchase it after the bill is passed than they do right now.

  93. “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” (Page 143 of the bill) Page 58 of the bill covers issuance of what would equate to insurance cards to verify eligibility.

    Is that what you were looking for?

  94. Look up the words “Health Insurance Exchange”. Google it. You will find your answers.

  95. “By the way, according to this morning news, contributions to Wilson's campaign are going through the roof.”

    Until Elrod started yet another thread on Wilson, I was the only one apparently to draw the analogy to “the cane” and South Carolina. But your overly liberal reference to someone infamous does say in a way who would be likely to send Wilson a cane, and an autographed one.

  96. Correction… An amendment to the health care bill was proposed, and it was shot down because 1. the bill already excludes illegal immigrants (which is as far as it needs to go) and 2. it's a piece of health care legislation– NOT immigration legislation.

    What was proposed was NOT a separate immigration bill– which is one I would agree is needed. What continues to fascinate me is that some Republicans seem so darn intent on putting this in the health care bill and opposed to a separate piece of legislation to address the overall problem of illegal immigration. I would guess that tacking it onto a bill they already plan to vote against makes it easy enough to avoid the issue. They can say, “Oh we tried to pass immigration legislation” and add a *nudge nudge* and a *wink wink*. I would wager that they wouldn't DARE pass it separately.

  97. It is interesting to note that at least one version of the bill is projected by the CBO to pretty much pay for itself in the long run…

    “For the years after 2014, we anticipate that the fiscal impact would improve gradually, so that the proposal would tend to become more than self-financing and thereby would reduce future budget deficits or increase future surpluses.”

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/republican-inf

  98. Ah… Reproductive services covered, yes; however you seem to overlook that the same exact amendment also “prohibits the use of public money to pay for abortions, except in cases of rape, incest and to save the life of the mother. That would still allow the public plan to cover all abortions, so long as the plans took in enough private money in the form of premiums paid by individuals or their employers.”

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which

    In other words, your tax dollars aren't going to help Reverend Johnson's daughter “fix it” when she sleeps with her boyfriend.

  99. CStanley wrote: “All I'm saying is that the illegals who don't have insurance now won't have any greater ability to purchase it after the bill is passed than they do right now.”

    And?.. Is that any worse than what they (and we) have now?

    CStanley, you must have missed the part where he said, “I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it.”

  100. Put Nurse Jackie on the front desk.

  101. It's probably just better to read the bill itself. What SteveK said about what's in the bill is true, and it's easily looked up, but I don't know that everything OBAMA said was true.

    The best, most detailed write up I've seen that's in plain language and easiest to understand was on FactCheck.org and addressed several points of a chain email that were incorrect. And they were able to do so line by line in the legislation:
    http://wordpress.asc.upenn.edu/2009/08/twenty-s

    I'll warn you that it's VERY long.

  102. To be honest, what he's describing and what's in the bill is actually a miniature version of the plan that he and Congress currently uses. If you go onto the FEHBP website, you can see a very visual representation of what he's talking about.

  103. According to what I'm reading, it gradually takes effect over the course of four years and will be fully available at that time. The first year will allow individuals and small businesses with fewer than 10 employees to opt in. The limit goes up from there.

  104. “You said that they would be able to purchase an inexpensive plan and I was wondering how you thought that was going to happen.”

    I’m scratching my head about that one too. If private insurers will salivate at the opportunity to compete for millions of new customers, why aren’t they competing for them already? Are there regulations in place preventing them from doing so which Mr. Obama is proposing to drop? I would have welcomed more specifics from him here.

    Or if a government-run insurer is going to offer them a sweeter deal than the private sector, how can it do so? Surely the president isn’t prevaricating about the public option being self supporting. Even imagining it can operate without the 5% profit and 10% overhead of the private sector, that’s still only a 15% savings. My impression is the uninsured are not priced out of the market by only 15%; surely in many cases it’s more like 100% or 300%.

    I’m disappointed we heard more vision-of-a-plan than actual-plan last night. It leaves us still trying to debate these possibilities and speculations about what the actual plan is. And it’s disappointing from the former presidential candidate who was prepared to take on the corporate lobbyists and the unions and the other special interest groups hamstringing the government.

  105. Steve, I was simply responding to something you wrote earlier in the thread. I'm not claiming that this situation would be any worse for the people in that situation under the proposed plan, but you said that they would be able to purchase an inexpensive plan and I was wondering how you thought that was going to happen. It goes against everything that is being argued for why we need this plan to begin with, since the proponents of it keep saying that only the public option will force insurers to start lowering their prices and 'keep them honest'. You seemed to now be arguing that as soon as this bill passes, low cost plans will be available, and I challenged you to show why you would think that would happen.

    And yes, I do realize what Obama said about anyone who criticizes the plans- and that his supporters will now use that line to avoid any real debate about whether or not the plans will be effective.

  106. comment read

  107. “You said that they would be able to purchase an inexpensive plan and I was wondering how you thought that was going to happen.”

    I'm scratching my head about that one too. If private insurers will salivate at the opportunity to compete for millions of new customers, why aren't they competing for them already? Are there regulations in place preventing them from doing so which Mr. Obama is proposing to drop? I would have welcomed more specifics from him here.

    Or if a government-run insurer is going to offer them a sweeter deal than the private sector, how can it do so? Surely the president isn't prevaricating about the public option being self supporting. Even imagining it can operate without the 5% profit and 10% overhead of the private sector, that's still only a 15% savings. My impression is the uninsured are not priced out of the market by only 15%; surely in many cases it's more like 100% or 300%.

    I'm disappointed we heard more vision-of-a-plan than actual-plan last night. It leaves us still trying to debate these possibilities and speculations about what the actual plan is. And it's disappointing from the former presidential candidate who was prepared to take on the corporate lobbyists and the unions and the other special interest groups hamstringing the government and make the hard choices.

  108. “Reproductive services covered, yes; however you seem to overlook that the same exact amendment also 'prohibits …'”

    Did you read the entire amendment? It's an abortion loophole. This (hot political) issue is far from dead.

    In addition to the link I provided originally (several days ago), you can look here, too. It's a live issue…

    http://republicans.energycommerce.house.gov/Med

  109. “I'm disappointed we heard more vision-of-a-plan than actual-plan last night.”

    Are you surprised, though, that (as usual) crucial details and the truth were omitted in favor of appeals to the emotions of those susceptible to such an overt approach?

  110. Some updated Polling data, looked like Obama helped his cause, at least temporarily with his speech.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/11/politic

    Last week, just 40 percent of these adults approved of how the president was handling health care. More, 47 percent, disapproved. After the speech, 52 percent said they approved and only 38 percent said they disapproved. Those are the best assessments for Mr. Obama's handling of health care shown all year by CBS News Polls.

    President Obama's speech was particularly successful in unifying Democrats. Now, 85 percent of them approve of his handling of health care.

    Approval rates also rose among independents and Republicans, but independents are still divided and only 17 percent of Republicans approve of the president's health care actions.

    However, a majority of all adults still aren't sure he has met one important goal; clarifying what reforms would mean — although there has been major improvement. Before the speech, just 33 percent said Mr. Obama had clearly explained his plans for reform. That rose to 42 percent afterward, but 43 percent still said he had not clearly explained his plans.

    All of the improvement on this question came from those who watched the speech. A majority of those who watched the speech, 58 percent, said the president had explained his plans, up from 40 percent before the speech. But among those who didn't watch, only one in four now say he has explained his plans — the same percentage as before the speech.

    Still, most Americans remain skeptical about how reforms currently under consideration in Congress would affect them personally. Just 22 percent of Americans think the reforms under consideration in Congress would help them personally. Twenty-seven percent think the new plans would hurt them. Those numbers have hardly changed at all since last week.

    So in short he raised his support but it doesn't appear very strong, since only 22 percent of those polled thing they themselves will be better off. Still he got above the 50% mark as far as approval of how he was handling things and that has to be a plus. I think that number may well come down again when he puts his plan on paper and folks get to look at the actual proposal behind the speech, the devil is in the details.

  111. I missed this earlier

    Three words… It was redundant.

    Actually it isn't.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/stateme

    So let's recap. There is explicit language in the House bill that says illegal immigrants should not receive the subsidized benefits. But we find the Republican conference is right that the legislation does not directly mention verification procedures and, for that reason, it's possible that illegal immigrants who are determined to beat the system might be able to get around the ban. But it's likely that the IRS would, at least indirectly, help to police that. And, the health choices commissioner would have the authority to set up a verification system. On balance, we rate the Republican claim Half True.

    So you see its possible for illegals to beat the system and this amendment would have helped to defeat that, but the Democrats stopped the amendment.

    Anyhow thanks for replying, and sorry i didn't notice it earlier. Its a long reply list.

  112. Certainly… Here's a link to “Full Text: Obama's Health Reform Speech” the link also has a “listen” link on the page.

    The speech should be a must read/must hear for everyone on every side of this debate… It's kind of hard arguing about something you don't know

    Agreed everyone should have read or listened to the speech.

    One interesting thing about it is it killed HR. 3200 pretty much. By publically promising that any plan needed to be deficit neutral and with the CBOs report on 3200 it fails to meet the criteria Obama laid out. There is no way he can support that legislation and not be a liar. Unless he pulls another FISA/warrantless wiretapping or no lobbyist style switcheroo, there is no way he can support it, or at least no way he can support it and have any credibility left at all.

  113. “One interesting thing about it is it killed HR. 3200 pretty much.”

    He gave support again to 3200 in the address. He supports the public option, the core of that bill, as well as wanting prompt federal expansion of another kind, too (the high-risk pool).

    “By publically promising that any plan needed to be deficit neutral “

    How many believe, or should have been expected to believe, this and other misstatements, especially in the context of record deficits and debts (and other misstatements before this address)?

  114. “he raised his support but it doesn't appear very strong”

    He did okay with the speech. There was a handful of useful items in it, if you filtered through the BS. He clarified and put the health care effort in better shape than it was in before the address(!). Now it's up to what his team and the Congressional Dems do (the deeds matter to many of us more than words).

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