Airstrikes That Killed Dozens of Afghan Civilians Was Ordered on the Basis of One Informant
Sep 7th, 2009 | 34 responses
See, it’s stuff like this that helps explain why Afghans — and many others — are convinced that the United States doesn’t believe Afghan lives matter all that much:
To the German commander, it seemed to be a fortuitous target: More than 100 Taliban insurgents were gathering around two hijacked fuel tankers that had become stuck in the mud near this small farming village.
The grainy live video transmitted from an American F-15E fighter jet circling overhead, which was projected on a screen in a German tactical operations center four miles north of here, showed numerous black dots around the trucks — each of them a thermal image of a human but without enough detail to confirm whether they were carrying weapons. An Afghan informant was on the phone with an intelligence officer at the center, however, insisting that everybody at the site was an insurgent, according to an account that German officers here provided to NATO officials.
Based largely on that informant’s assessment, the commander ordered a 500-pound, satellite-guided bomb to be dropped on each truck early Friday. The vehicles exploded in a fireball that lit up the night sky for miles, incinerating many of those standing nearby.
A NATO fact-finding team estimated Saturday that about 125 people were killed in the bombing, at least two dozen of whom — but perhaps many more — were not insurgents. To the team, which is trying to sort out this complicated incident, mindful that the fallout could further sap public support in Afghanistan for NATO’s security mission here, the target appeared to be far less clear-cut than it had to the Germans.
If this were the first time Americans in Afghanistan had dropped bombs of 500 pounds on targets near civilian areas on the basis of only one source, or on the basis of questionable sources, it would be one thing. But it’s not the first time. And if the public support issue is of any interest to the military, why does it keep happening?
34 Responses to “Airstrikes That Killed Dozens of Afghan Civilians Was Ordered on the Basis of One Informant”
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The info that it was a German unit that ordered the attack is right there but you somehow seem to totaly ignore it.
I have no problem with them hitting this target. Any civilian who got near a Taliban tanker with a war going on was a dumbass.
I guess they didn't have any Taliban machine gun nests for their kids to play in that day.
Kathy, do you even read the article before bashing America? It clearly says GERMAN commander.
I'm with Charlie Scene and EEllis on this one. Here's what it says:
To the German commander, it seemed to be a fortuitous target…”
Then Kathy says:
“If this were the first time Americans in Afghanistan had dropped bombs of 500 pounds on targets near civilian areas on the basis of only one source, or on the basis of questionable sources, it would be one thing. But it’s not the first time.”
Now, both Germany and the U.S. are part of NATO, true enough, so that last paragraph just needs a little work, eh?
“so that last paragraph just needs a little work, eh?”
I think Kathy means incidents like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/22/world/asia/22…
American warplanes in pursuit of Taliban fighters bombed a village in southern Afghanistan and killed 16 civilians and wounded 15 more, among them women and children, the local governor and villagers said Monday.
and like this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar…
“Every day our children are dying,” Karzai said, noting that two children were killed in Musa Qala recently. He said girls are afraid to go to school and that NATO bombs have killed entire families.
and:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/af…
Nine civilians, including four children, were killed in Afghanistan when US planes dropped two 2,000lb bombs on their mud home. Their deaths came after at least eight civilians were killed by US Marines a day earlier.
When a bomb has “Made in USA” stamped on it and it is dropped by a plane stamped “Made in USA” flown by a US officer, under control of higher officers, then blaming another country seem churlish.
The German unit did NOT order the attack. The Americans did. Jesus, Ellis, learn to read.
And again, as I said to Ellis, the Germans did not order the attack — the Americans did, on the basis of an intelligence report from the Germans. IT WAS A U.S. AIRSTRIKE.
Yes, to the German commander it seemed to be a fortuitous target, and the American commander(s) ordered the strike. This is an AMERICAN mission in Afghanistan; NATO is serving as support, but it's the U.S. that owns Afghanistan.
Oh, how silly of me. Of course, this means that it's okay for the U.S. to drop bombs on targets they can't see on the basis of one informant, and kill dozens of civilians. “The Taliban do it, TOOOOOOO!!” (said with a steadily rising wail).
I deleted the above comment. I had misunderstood the writer's meaning.
Kathy, Kathy, Kathy….
Haven't you learned anything yet? As far as Republicans/Conservatives are concerned the American Military never kills the wrong people, if the American Military kills someone, they had it coming…
I know Don Quijote. I like the universal knee jerk response that declares these people deserved to die after the fact, before you even knew they existed. Video game wars indeed.
The way the article reads, it was a US plane but the order came from the German commander. I went back and read the original article and it still looks that way.
To quote the article “To the German commander, it seemed to be a fortuitous target………the commander ordered a 500-pound, satellite-guided bomb to be dropped on each truck early Friday. Since there are no other commanders mentioned in the space between the two quotes, it sounds like the German commander ordered the strike.
We'll work on sarcasm…
The way the article reads, it was a US plane but the order came from the German commander. I went back and read the original article and it still looks that way.
To quote the article “To the German commander, it seemed to be a fortuitous target………the commander ordered a 500-pound, satellite-guided bomb to be dropped on each truck early Friday. Since there are no other commanders mentioned in the space between the two quotes, it sounds like the German commander ordered the strike.
Farther down the page:
Here is the point, which is really not opaque at all: This action was conducted by a joint NATO and U.S. military team, but that team is under the ultimate authority of the U.S. Gen. McChrystal is the one in charge. The buck stops with him.
“Jesus, Ellis, learn to read.”
I'm going to keep my temper here but you don't make it easy Kathy. You are wrong. The German commander ordered the attack. Even in your clipped piece of the article it says that. It gets even more direct later in the article YOU reference.
“Klein ordered the strike about 2:30 a.m. Two minutes later, the bombs had hit their targets.”
Klein? That would be German commander, Col. Georg Klein.
Kathy you are wrong. Very wrong and totally out of line.
Now there are still arguments to be made that pilots could or should refuse to fire under these circumstances, complaints on the rules of engagement, ect. But Kathy if any one needs to learn to read it's you. I expect an apology if you have any decency and honesty at all.
Did you even read your source article Kathy?
Ellis,you are right. The German commander ordered the airstrike. When I wrote that the German commander did not order the airstrike, that was incorrect. So there's your correction, but no apology, because you are arguing on a literal, surface level that totally misses the larger point. Gen. Stanley McChrystal is the commander of the NATO mission. Gen. Stanley McChrystal is American. He is employed by the U.S. military. If you read my reply to DaGoat before you posted this (or if you simply reread the WaPo article), you will see that Gen. McChrystal had issued a directive NOT to bomb on the basis of a single informant. Obviously, the German commander is not blameless; obviously there is shared responsibility here. But the ultimate responsibility is McChrystal's, and by extension the U.S. military and the U.S. government. The war in Afghanistan is being conducted by the United States; it's a U.S. mission. Germany did not make the decision to invade Afghanistan. It's not Germany's war. It's Americans who are morally and officially responsible for the deaths of those civilians, not Germans.
” there's your correction, but no apology”
Kathy you are full of crap. I even said there were other bases to complain so I missed nothing. You insisted, rudely and wrongly, that this was an American ordered attack, then insulted me for correcting you. You also show a total ignorance of military operations. If it is found that the bombs were dropped contrary to standing order it would be the German Col. who violated those orders. There should be plenty to honestly use, stop making crap up or at least educate yourself so you don't sound like a flaming idiot.
Sorry, Ellis, that's a no go. The Germans are under American command, not the other way around. The entire policy of aerial bombing in Afghanistan is at issue here. It's the U.S. that created and maintains the policy; it's the U.S. that creates, maintains, and enforces the rules of engagement; it's the U.S. that is responsible when things go wrong.I'm reasonably sure that if a joint NATO-U.S. team under the command of Gen. Stanley McChrystal achieved a stunning military victory with no civilian casualties, you would give the credit to the Americans. Well, the blame for airstrikes based on unreliable sourcing that end up killing dozens of civilians goes to Americans as well.
“The Germans are under American command, not the other way around.”
Again Kathy you are showing your ignorance of the military and the operational organization in Afghanistan. Sure if you stretch it everything is the US commanders fault, but then you can also stretch to blame Obama and be just as honest. Hell anyone who voted for Obama is by your logic guilty. If Col Klein violated the policy set by McChrystal then somehow by your logic McChrystal is more at fault than Klein. That's just stupid. And if you had any integrity you would apologize for your insult.
McChrystal is ultimately responsible for the results of that airstrike, yes — just as Pres. Obama is ultimately responsible for allowing the policy of aerial strikes in Afghanistan to continue — and just as former Pres. Bush was and is still responsible for the decisions in his administration that helped make the U.S. war in Afghanistan the disaster it has become.
Being “at fault” for a discrete action is not the same as being responsible for the factors or conditions or overarching policy that allowed that action to occur. That just goes with the territory of being top dog.
Incredibiblly tacky from the same person who posted:
Reading is fundamental Kathy, and apologizing when you were totally off base with your insults is the minimal decency that you should be willing to adhere to. Does your ego know no limit?
Hell anyone who voted for Obama is by your logic guilty.
Makes sense to me. It's as if Kathy herself dropped the bomb.
Seriously though, if McChrystal gave an order and the German commander didn't follow it, it's tough to come down on McChrystal for that. The responsibility for following orders doesn't lie with the one giving them. I understand the “buck stops here” argument (which ultimately ends at Obama) but realistically responsibilities are delegated to people you trust to handle them. It's not realistic to pick up the phone and call McChrystal 24/7 to talk about a target.
“Does your ego know no limit?”
I'm sure it does but unfortunately I think with Kathy ideology is first and god only knows where honesty comes in.
No joke I remember her false claims about Lieberman being financed last year by the drug companies that she knew for a fact that wasn't. A falsehood I demolished on an earlier thread and I don't believe she chose to comment and admit error afterwards.
Thats the problem with ideologues, facts give them fits.
“responsibilities are delegated”
I don't know how things are now, but when I was under NATO command in the '80's, my US commander had to sign off on everything I was “ordered” to do by other NATO commanders.
If authority of this plane and pilot was turned over to the Germans, then there is something I remember from those times, “Authority may be delegated, but never Responsibility.”
If authority of this plane and pilot was turned over to the Germans, then there is something I remember from those times, “Authority may be delegated, but never Responsibility.”
You're right, I remember the same thing from my military days. Technically, McChrystal (and in turn, his superiors) are responsible for the actions of the German commander. But how far do you take that? Are you ready to blame Obama for how well the guy down at your local Social Security office does his job? Technically yes but realistically it won't work.
Anyway what do you think the repercussions should be for McChrystal? Should he be court-martialed or relieved of command? If you truly feel his negligence led to the deaths of civilians then what do you do with that?
Please don't take for the kind of fool you are playing. There are many people responsible in the chain of command between a pilot dropping bombs and McChrystal. Someone below McChrystal delegated the authority and that person is the most responsible.
Nice try.
vey if you read the thread I wasn't the one saying McChrystal was responsible, that would be Kathy. I think you and I are of the same opinion.
EEllis, did you say you were a war vet? I thought you did somewhere on another post. Or was that someone else. I want to hear from war vets on this. There's a big difference between fantasy war armchair opiners who've never been to months of war, and real war vets who wear the boots and blood. Huge difference. A lot of people here are playing at walt disney war. Lets hear from a bone fide war vet who has the real cred.
“Ellis, did you say you were a war vet?”
“Lets hear from a bone fide war vet who has the real cred.”
Lets hear what? First I have not said because I am not using my “experience” as a claim of expert. Second unless someone on line tries to use their supposed experience as part of an argument then what business is it of yours. Hell I should want to tell a bunch of online (self edit) personal details? I think not. Hell the facts were in Kathy's source material. What is it you want to know?
“…when I was under NATO command in the '80's, my US commander had to sign off on everything serious I was “ordered” to do by other NATO commanders.
“If authority of this plane and pilot was turned over to the Germans, then there is something I remember from those times, “Authority may be delegated, but never Responsibility.”
Right Vey 9. Thanks. It's good to hear from someone who actually served, with families behind them that sacrificed, rather than from those who never served, have never been up close, get all their ideas from tee vee and msm.