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Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

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Our political Quote of the Day comes from Time’s Joe Klein, who attended a health care reform town hall in Arkansas and asks the question I’ve asked here at TMV many times: just where is America’s accelerating trend towards political ugliness headed?

Klein expresses shock at the number of people at the meeting who were convinced that President Barack Obama is a communist — he talked to one woman who insisted there were four Communists in the administration (she is a talk radio listener) and writes:

I was later told by a local observer that many of these vomitous, disgraceful notions were the fruit of Glenn Beck’s fruitful imagination. “We are living Glenn Beck’s fantasy life,” said this audience member. The amazing thing remains not only the unwillingness of responsible Republicans–a term that is in danger of becoming an oxymoron–to call bull– on this, but also the willingness of many prominent Republicans to join in the slinging of garbage. Michelle Cottle reports that there are Republican-sanctioned efforts afoot to have parents not send their children to school on September 8 because the President is scheduled to address the nation’s school-children that day and they are afraid that he will fill their little heads with socialist propaganda. That is somewhere well beyond disgraceful.

Could I just say that the intensity of this getting pretty scary…and dangerous? We are heading toward a cliff and the usual brakes of civil discourse are not working. Indeed, the Republicans have the pedal to the metal–rushing us toward a tragedy far greater than the California health care forum finger-biting Karen describes below. [See TMV's earlier post on this story about a health care reform supporter biting off the finger of a health care reform opponent.] I’m usually not one to panic or be overly worried about the state of our country–even when we do awful things like invade Iraq and torture people, we usually right our course before long–but I have a sinking feeling about where we’re headed now. I hope I’m wrong.

For instance, putting aside screaming and accusatory partisan old and new media writings and broadcasts, here is how the AP describes Obama’s speech to school kids:

The president will speak directly to students Tuesday about the need to work hard and stay in school. His address will be shown live on the White House Web site and on C-SPAN at noon EDT, a time when classrooms across the country will be able to tune in.

Schools don’t have to show it. But districts across the country have been inundated with phone calls from parents and are struggling to address the controversy that broke out after Education Secretary Arne Duncan sent a letter to principals urging schools to tune in.

And here is an AP quote that shows just have much hatred and demonziation of those who do not agree with you has taken hold of America — just as if the bodysnatchers have taken over the bodies of people who might once have raged over issues, rather than try to politically define and discredit someone who sees things differently:

“As far as I am concerned, this is not civics education — it gives the appearance of creating a cult of personality,” said Oklahoma Republican state Sen. Steve Russell. “This is something you’d expect to see in North Korea or in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.”

So far districts in six states are refraining from showing Obama’s speech due to conservative parent complaints.

But Presidents and first ladies have talked to kids before in classrooms or White House encounters about the importance of hard work, staying in school, and thinking about the country. What’s different is that Obama is simply using old and new media to offer his talk to a wider school audience. Yet, in other times when demonization wasn’t king, people belonging to a different political party didn’t make their kids to stay home if JFK, Ronald Reagan, Nancy Reagan, or George Bush (who was at a school on September 11) spoke at a school. It wasn’t “Let’s hide the kids because this President doesn’t agree with me on some policies and if he says hello or stay in school he’ll have a magical power to brainwash them!” There were limits to partisanship. [The LA Times notes -- see update below -- that Democrats criticized President George HW Bush for a 1981 speech televised from an 8th grade classroom. What is different here is the demonization. Ronald Reagan spoke to school kids also and mentioned Republican principles.]

What has changed? The country.
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We are now seeing the triumph of the talk radio political culture — a politics that now is framed in terms of high-concept sound bites, trying to affix labels to those who disagree on an issue, trying to push emotional hot buttons so that the political target is hated enough to serve as a catalyst for a goal (in the case of talk shows to grow and maintain an outraged audience; in the case of politics, to mobilize one side).

And when people say they fear where this is headed, just what does that mean? The bottom line is that there are fears that someone will get killed — someone on one side or another, or a political figure — which does not mean only Obama — or that a large number of people could get hurt of killed in some kind of political nutcase act.

But it isn’t just that.

The present frenzy suggests that the seeds are now being sowed for a mega-polarized America that could be almost ungovernable in the 21st century if this trend continues unabated.

If Republicans and conservatives make the very legitimacy of Obama his patriotism — even the safety of allowing little kids listen to him tell them to stay in school and think about helping their community — the issue, and link his name to Hitler and/or Nazism, precisely how do they think Democrats and the left will respond next time a GOPer is in power? How will the next Republican President be treated in terms of legitimacy and doing what he/she feels is in the best interest of the country? The bar on discourse is being lowered and lower and right now it’s touching the soil.

It’s a question that should give thoughtful Republicans — and there still are many of them — pause.

But so far we’re not seeing a pause.

Just a country seemingly heading towards a cliff.

UPDATE
: The New Republic’s The Plank on the school boycott:

Tammy Bruce has gone so far as to encourage parents to keep their kids home that day. “Make September 8 Parentally Approved Skip Day. You are your child’s moral tutor, not that shady lawyer from Chicago,” she tweeted.

This is disgraceful. For starters, Obama’s message, as described in a press release from Ed Sec Arne Duncan, will stick to anodyne topics like the need to work hard and take responsibility for one’s own success (which once upon a time were values Republicans could cheer.) Admittedly, I don’t have an advance text, but I’ll bet a year’s supply of Ben & Jerry’s Chunky Monkey that Obama will not be lecturing America’s youth about the joys of bank bailouts, universal health care, or cash-for-clunkers–just as I am confident George W. Bush would never have used school children to hawk the Iraq war, the Medicare drug program, or “enhanced interrogation” techniques. Dick Cheney, maybe. But not Bush.

More broadly, Obama is the leader of this entire nation. It doesn’t matter if you voted for him–or even if your head threatens to explode every time you think about him. He is the president, and, as such, it’s a big deal that he’s speaking directly to students about the importance of education. (Not teachers unions, you hysterics.) And, whatever one’s party registration, the idea that any child should be kept home from class purely so their parents can make a political statement about an apolitical speech is appalling. Is the idea that we should shelter children from any contact with or knowledge of any president we personally dislike? Maybe, during the years our preferred party is out of power, we should just pretend that the president doesn’t exist. That’s a healthy way to run a democracy.

UPDATE II: Some other reaction (these are only excerpts so go to the links and read these posts in full to get a variety of opinions on this issue):
Political scientist Steven Taylor:

I have two basic reactions. First, what is so controversial (or, for that matter, all that unusual) for a president to extol the youth of America to take education seriously? Second, I have to admit that given all that a given president has to do, that perhaps these kinds of symbolic acts are perhaps not the most efficient usage of time (although I acknowledge that symbolic acts of this type do go along with the president’s role as head of state and the much vaunted “bully pulpit.”)….One can argue whether a back to school speech is the best use of either the president’s or the children’s time. However, it is hardly a prelude to totalitarianism.

James Joyner:

I actually agree with every word of that. Granted, “stay in school” is such an innocuous message that it’s hard to object to its being presented. But do we really need to add to the already inflated sense of the president of the United States as our national daddy? The man’s in charge of one branch of the federal government; he’s not king.

Still, as Doug Mataconis points out, this is hardly new. Why, Ronald Reagan himself gave such as speech. So did both Presidents Bush. Indeed, Reagan went to far as to answer questions from the kiddies on federal budget priorities and gun control!

Patrick Appel:

I’ve ignored the furor over Obama’s address to the nation’s schoolchildren about working hard in school because it’s a fake story fueled by misguided outrage.

Just One Minute:

We eagerly await Mr.Gandelman’s return to our Solar System.

When (if) he returns, perhaps he will contemplate an alternative scenario – Joe Klein and the media on the left are highlighting the zaniest Obama critics they can find with the goal of discrediting all Obama critics. It’s an old, old game and I am surprised that Mr. Gandelman can’t recognize it.

…Again, a challenge, but for those who remember all the way back to 2004, try to think back to the prominent Democrats in attendance at the Fahrenheit 9/11 premieres, and Michael Moore’s guest-of-honor appearance at the Democratic Convention.

And this LA TIMES UPDATE:

In the wake of the uproar, the Department of Education decided to alter its language about one of its activities.

The original version suggested students “write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.” The updated version asks students to “write letters to themselves about how they can achieve their short-term and long-term education goals.”

Individual school districts in at least half a dozen states have indicated they will not show the speech.

Monique Bond, a spokeswoman for Chicago Public Schools, which Duncan headed before joining Obama’s Cabinet, said that no school would be required to participate in the activities surrounding the president’s address. She added that teachers could offer alternative activities for students whose parents elect for them not to participate.

Wayde Byard, public information officer for Loudon County Public Schools in Virginia, said the speech “just doesn’t fit in with the first day of activities.”

In October 1991, President George H.W. Bush delivered a speech from an eighth-grade classroom in Washington, D.C., that was broadcast nationwide. The move was criticized by Democrats at the time.

Steve Benan:

In 1988, then-President Reagan spoke to students nationwide via C-SPAN telecast. Among other things, he talked about his positions on political issues of the day. Three years later, then-President Bush addressed school kids in a speech broadcast live to school classrooms nationwide. Among other things, he promoted his own administration’s education policies.

President Obama wants to deliver a message to students next week emphasizing hard work, encouraging young people to do their best in school. The temper tantrum the right is throwing in response only helps reinforce how far gone 21st-century conservatives really are.

This is no small, isolated fit, thrown by random nutjobs. The New York Times, Washington Post,LA Times, AP, and others all ran stories this morning about the coordinated national effort to either keep children at home so they can’t hear their president’s pro-education message, or demanding that local schools block the message altogether.

…The administration not only edited the supplementary materials, but has offered to make the text of the address available in advance, just so everyone can see how innocuous it is. It’s made no difference. Conservatives don’t want school kids to hear a message from their president. Those who claim superiority on American patriotism have decided to throw yet another tantrum over the idea that the president of the United States might encourage young people to do well in schools.

--Thoughts of a Conservative Christian:

While it appears the President’s speech will focus on the value of education and personal responsibility, federally-directed lesson plans set a concerning precedent for the government’s role in education. Education analyst Frederick Hess writes at the American Enterprise blog that the lesson plans “were developed with federal funds, devised on taxpayer time, and made available on the Department of Education’s website” and “might be construed as an invitation to engage in advocacy rather than instruction”.

The President, however, clearly wants his own children to be off limits to such classroom politicization. Upon moving to Washington, he chose to enroll his children in the private Sidwell Friends School.

But children in many of the country’s public schools will not be off limits on Tuesday. It is one thing to teach about the historical relevance and accomplishments of past administrations. It is another thing entirely to encourage children to implement a sitting president’s political agenda.

Jeff Woods:

Now even school officials are kowtowing to the right-wing radio loudmouths and their zombie followers. No longer in America can the president give a speech to schoolchildren about the importance of taking education seriously and having aspirations.

Can you imagine this happening if John Kennedy or Ronald Reagan had given this speech? Schools would have devoted the whole day to social studies and patriotic pageants. Now, Obama haters fear he might try to indoctrinate their children. Mark Steyn, substituting for Rush Limbaugh on his show yesterday, accused the president of trying to create a personality cult like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong-il.

…Florida’s Republican Party chairman, Jim Greer, said he “was appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama’s socialist ideology.”

Michael Landauer’s Dallas Morning News blog post must be read in FULL. Here is just the beginning:

A few very reasonable people I know have said that there are valid reasons why people worry about the speech the president is giving to schoolchildren. Here’s my best attempt at understanding the three informed lines of reasoning (I just don’t have time to deal with the myriad uninformed opinions on this subject):

1. You’re libertarian to the Nth degree. If you really think this is too much power for the president, then certainly you also think it’s wrong to have the kids say the Pledge of Allegiance every day, too. And you may not even think public education is a great idea. It’s not in the Constitution, after all. Fine. I disagree, but I respect that. And it’s hard to believe when you’re someone who has never done anything but criticize the president. But I’ll just have to take your word for it that you have a pure libertarian point of view.

Read it in full.
JBS.org:

I wouldn’t send my child to school on September 8, unless I had a strong death wish for America. On September 8, President Obama will be broadcasting a prepared speech to every school child, grades K-12, in America. On September 8, Obama the Change Agent begins his takeover of the schools…but not with my child, and hopefully not with yours.

Consider the implications of his grand plan. In a style typical of dictators, he is preempting the communications into every school in the nation. He has not sought the permission of parents or local school boards. He will not sign in at the office to get clearance and a visitor badge as everyone else must do.

As a parent, I expect the schools to notify me in writing if a controversial person or group would be making any kind of presentation. I could then decide whether to keep my child home, or ask that he be sent to the library to read during that time. But Barack Obama, with one huge broadcast, will dismiss the rights of everyone, ignore laws, and kick dust on the Constitution……The problem with the usurpation of nationwide instructional time on September 8 is not so much the message, but the manner. What gives Obama the legal right to trod upon the Constitution in this, and other matters

--Patriots and Liberty:

On September 8th at 1pm EST, President Obama will be the first U.S. president to speak to America’s school children in an address that is directed specifically to them. I would not agree with this even if it were President Ronald Reagan delivering the speech. It is highly offensive for our children and our schools to be used by the President to push a political agenda. [EDITOR's NOTE: Read above post and links. Other Presidents have talked to schoolkids also..] The U.S. Department of Education event put out an activity package for students to use before, during, and after the speech including making posters that will hang on the walls for several days. I read the activity sheets and I noticed that the questions students were being asked assumed that they would agree with whatever the President’s agenda might be. The questions were written in such a way as to discourage dissent and to seek group consensus on the President’s agenda.

Parents from all political parties should be offended and outraged by this disrespect of parental authority and personal family values and should reveal their disapproval by removing their child from any class period that will broadcast this speech. Take your child or children to lunch and then return them to school when the propaganda program has ended.

Revolution Radio:

Obama is planning to speak with our kiddies live from the White House Sept. 8th at 12:00 Eastern time. Secretary Arne Duncan sent a letter to School Principals announcing the 20-minute speech by the President and offering questions and suggestions for discussion. All of us can apparently watch this socialist, manipulative speech to our children. The address will be streamed live.

The Dept. of Education is expecting our kids to read books on Barack Obama and his special life. This is supposed to happen before the speech. One of these books is Barack Obama: Son of Promise, Child of Hope. Let’s have a moment of silence. In reading excerpts from this book you would think you were reading about Abraham or Jesus Christ. It is the story of a disenfranchised, almost hopeless black man who miraculously rose up through the ranks with the motto “Yes! We can!” You can read a few of the Messiah set up excerpts at the PUMA site taken from the official publisher.

Ever since Barack Obama was young, Hope has lived inside him. From he beaches of Hawaii to the streets of Chicago, from the jungles of Indonesia to the plains of Kenya, he has held on to Hope. Even as a boy, Barack knew he wasn’t quite like anybody else, but through his journeys he found the ability to listen to Hope and become what he was meant to be: a bridge to bring people together.

His mama, white as whipped cream; his daddy, black as ink…

Salon’s Joan Walsh:

I never imagined the outbreak of right-wing crazy that Obama’s gesture would provoke, and this time it’s hard not to see racism behind the hysteria. The message is “Obama’s coming for our children!” the standard cry against scary boogeymen in every culture. I mean, really, what besides Obama’s race could make him so scary to these people? That he’s a Marxist socialist fascist Nazi? I’d argue that the only reason those extreme epithets have taken hold goes back to reason No. 1: Our first black president is provoking some outsize and irrational reactions.

Especially since, as has now been well-documented, President George H.W. Bush addressed American students in 1991, and Ronald Reagan did so via C-SPAN in 1988. (Bush talked mainly about the importance of education, while Reagan hailed the benefits of low taxes and the line-item veto.) President George W. Bush appealed to “the children of the country” to back the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001, to no public criticism. Admittedly, some Democrats accused his father of playing politics in ‘91, while Newt Gingrich ardently defended him. (Waiting for Gingrich to defend Obama. Still waiting.)

But there was nothing like the frenzied reaction to Obama’s planned speech (which school principals are free to ignore if they so choose) to any of the other presidents’ statements to students. The Florida Republican Party went into full-tilt crazy against Obama’s plan to spread his “socialist ideology,” claiming “schoolchildren across our nation will be forced to watch the president justify his plans for government-run health care, banks, and automobile companies, increasing taxes on those who create jobs, and racking up more debt than any other president.”

Digby:

Where the…are the Democrats?

Democrats should be all over this. Republicans have just lobbed the most perfect softball their way – telling kids to study in school is a message Republicans don’t want schoolchildren to hear??? Democrats should let them have it with both barrels. And the counter-attack should come at exactly the same level – state leadership, if not higher.

If you’re serious about 21st Century American politics, you don’t let the insane charge that the President of the United States is trying to corrupt the Youth of America go unanswered when it’s being made at the highest levels of the Republican party. Why?

Because if you refuse to fight back, it creates the distinct impression that there’s some truth to it. These aren’t merely deranged talkshow hosts accusing the President of fomenting subversion; these are leaders of a major political party. They cannot be ignored.

Daily Kos gives this long excerpt of Ronald Reagan’s talk to school kids. Here is part of the Reagan quote:

Because you see, the taxes can be such a penalty on people that there’s no incentive for them to prosper and to earn more and so forth because they have to give so much to the government …

There was talk about having a gun ban in California. It didn’t go through. But I got a letter from a man in San Quentin Prison. And from the prison he wrote me the letter to tell me he was in there for burglary, he was a burglar. And he said, “I just want you to know that if that law goes through, here in San Quentin there will be celebrating throughout the day and night by all the burglars who are in prison.”

Lawyers, Guns and Money:

Because going over the heads of your own party, government institutions, and public opinion, directly to the people school children is such an unlikely strategy, it’s utterly devious.

Genius, that Obama, securing the second grade vote like this.

Gawker:

President Obama announced that he will give a speech welcoming America’s young students into the new school year. Conservatives, happy to fight about anything this man does, came out swinging against the President’s “socialist” intentions. And they’re winning!

Basically, the speech amounts to nothing more than our nation’s Commander-in-Chief urging kids to stay in school, for, if they do, perhaps one day they’ll be president. Floridian Republican Jim Greer was one of the first to seize up over the news, and called Obama’s September 8th an attempt to “spread” his “socialist ideology.” Greer then got into nitty-gritty politics, and warned that the President would simply be indoctrinating guppies with his liberal politics.

Conservatives are easily swayed, almost collective organism, so their calls for prohibition only grew more voracious. They took particular offense over the announcement that students would be encouraged to “write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.”

Rush Limbaugh was soon on board. So was Glenn Beck. And then Greer reared his head on Hardball this evening. Though he and his knows Presidents often address students, this is different, because Obama’s a proselytizer of anti-American madness.

Economist.com’s Democracy in America:

The opposition to Mr Obama’s speech is fundamentally an attempt to deny the legitimacy of the president. It should be resisted. No liberal parents pulled their kindergardeners out of class to avoid having George W. Bush indoctrinate them with the esoteric neoconservative messages embedded in the text of “The Pet Goat”. (No wonder he was so insistent on finishing the reading!) But it’s also part of a broader atmosphere of paranoia that has taken root in American child-rearing in recent decades. In 1969, 50% of American children walked to school; that is down to less than 15%, in part due to fears that their children will be kidnapped, even though violent crime against children hasn’t grown at all. Those parents are increasingly reluctant to vaccinate their kids, for fear that vaccines are secretly harmful—i.e., that the entire edifice of modern scientific medicine is an elaborate conspiracy to harm their children. Teachers have their licenses revoked for letting kids climb up hills. And so forth.

It’s nuts. Walking to school is safe. Vaccines are good for you. Climbing hills is healthy. And if conservatives are worried that Obama will beam his mind-rays through the television screens and turn their children into…pro-business moderate liberals, or something, they should chill out: the mind-rays don’t work. In 1988, Ronald Reagan addressed the nation’s schoolchildren via television, and in 1991, George H.W. Bush did the same. And in 2008, those kids, now aged roughly 24 to 38, voted overwhelmingly for Barack Obama. If, on the other hand, conservatives make the president’s speech seem like something forbidden and cool, that they’re not allowed to watch…that just might ensure those kids vote Democratic when they get the chance.

  • JSpencer
    This article, more than anything else, points up the need for and importance of education, especially the need for an electorate that has learned how to think critically - for itself. The alternative is a continued descent into a culture where people like Beck have a growing flock. It strikes me that some republican lawmakers have an interest in keeping a portion of their constituents misinformed and malcontent. That last comment is not intended to include many of our conservative contributors here btw.
  • VeratheGun
    Thanks for these thoughts. The level of outright HATRED in the air right now is absolutely breathtaking. I have never seen anything like it in my lifetime. I truly fear for our President and his family. Even if someone were to get hurt, I doubt any of the rhetoric would change. There are too many highly ignorant, fearful people right now trying to hijack any reasonable debate, to change the mood any time soon. I lay this at the feet of the Republican attack machine, talk radio, especially.

    Where are the reasonable, mature Republicans who can step forward and say "ENOUGH!" What the right does not seem to realize or care, is how they are alienating young people, and shaping tomorrow's political affiliations, many years into the future. The people acting out at town halls, and on television are for the most part, older, white and bitter. Earth to Republicans: the future is not going to look this way. You may win the battle, but you are losing the war in a profound way.

    I call myself a moderate, but for the last fifteen years, the Republican party has gone so far to the right, it has become the party of nastiness, war and hatred. There is no way I would consider voting for ANY Republican, the way the party now stands. We have a two party system. Both of those parties need to be run by thoughtful, reasonable people. Right now, I see one party trying to make necessary changes, led by grown-ups, with reasonable rhetoric. And I see one party led by idealogues, frankly lying, refusing to negotiate, using rhetoric that is dangerous and immoral.

    It doesn't have to be this way. But choices are being made, to allow the hate to proliferate. Someone on the right has got to stand up and represent true conservative ideals, and behavior. Otherwise, the Right is goin to implode in a morass of hatred and ignorance.
  • jeff_pickens
    It is creepy. I see it every day. Bumper sticker yesterday: "I hope he fails" driving in front of me. It's a Rush Limbaugh weird-fest around these parts. "Secede" is another one, courtesy of my lovely governor Rick Perry, that I see on a few trucks on the way to work.

    And it should be no surprise that there will be fury on the left; that historically, the left can do their share of lashing out as well. And it will happen if the provocation goes on. Bitten finger? Good gosh. I'm more afraid of someone on the left grabbing one of the religious-right toting assault rifles (you know, the ones they bring to town hall meetings) and opening up on a school of birthers before one of the other birthers takes him out.

    I consider that the political right, especially the neo-con religious right, may indeed have their way someday: if not able to rule people through government, then make the government and those who would govern as dysfunctional as possible--sow distrust, demonize the "unpatriotic" and distinguish the "real Americans," shout "U-S-A" if you disagree with a candidate (let's make this a football game pep rally,) say "Hitler" as many times as is humanly possible during a conversation, invoke "Reagan" as many times as is humanly possible, and if these things aren't enough, be sure and mention "abortion" a few times, "communism" more than once, and add a dash of "liberty", "tyranny," and "Constitution" or "Declaration of Independence" to make a partisan point.

    If escalation is what people want, they might just accomplish their wish. If dialogue is what is needed, it might behoove people to realize that Rush Limbaugh makes 10s of millions of dollars a year telling people exactly what they want to hear. He's laughing all the way to the bank (probably one that didn't need bailout.)
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    We are being herded toward civil war, but everyone that thinks it and is to afraid to say it out loud prefers to ask "where could this be headed?" Any US school child that has read about the civil war can tell you exactly where it is headed but a good percentage of the country, much like then, is working in collusion because they hope it will help them win an election. Guess what buckie things keep going down this path and one or two more elections may be all this country has left. When FDR won the election a friend told him "you will either be one of America's greatest presidents or its last." I said a similar thing about Obama in this election, but I am positive if a Repub would have won it would all be puppy kisses right now(in reality it would have likely been even worse but the media would have ignored it like they did until 2006). I keep waiting for some loyalty from the opposition to calm the extreme voices but they just keep jumping on board.
  • DLS
    Lefties can make up whatever they want, but informed, reasonable people are concerned about not only Obama's continued "campaign mode" long after the election, but exploiting the "personality cult" as well as extending the reach of the federal government substantially more into private lives than is appropriate.

    Informed people, the real critical thinkers, already know what's at issue here regarding the speech and more.


    http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html


    No, the federal government is not Everything, and Obama is not our Father as well as our Teacher, etc..

    How low can the lowly go? Here is one lowly example.


    http://voices.kansascity.com/node/5730


    I guess if the (normal) public doesn't need a federal "teachable moment," the children could use one.
  • DLS
    "The present frenzy suggests that the seeds are now being sowed for a mega-polarized America that could be almost ungovernable in the 21st century if this trend continues unabated."

    Don't hype things to ridiculous extremes, as Stickings psychotically does.

    It's no surprise that the Dems' divisiveness and misconduct are not being sheepishly accepted (when not admired, with personality-cult delight, instead) as a routine (and expected?) matter by everyone.
  • Kastanj
    This is the result of the republican's own brand of identity politics and victim mythologies. When Bush won, there was a lot of ire, antagonism and silliness, but Obama has not done anything as egregiously partisan as invade the wrong country. The stimulus was flawed but necessary, cap-and-trade is arguably similar and health-care reform should not be an ideological matter. Yet here people are trying to convince themselves Obama is a liberal and that he deserves all this self-righteous "criticism". Obama is definitely not further from the center than Bush, but apparently the people who gave the latter the thumbs-and-toes-up (and Milord I'm sorry I lack further appendages up) are now feeling all scared of the government again.

    I'm not saying that Obama should be allowed to be extremely partisan and ideological because Bush was, but I am saying that Obama is less partisan and ideological than his predecessor, and I am also saying that the GOP is a less mature and decent minority party than the DNC was, and that the people who are saying that Obama is too far from the center do not have a good record of being attuned to said center anyway.

    There are very few right-wingers (and libertarians) left who have anything to stand on while complaining about progressives and liberals. Well, they can stand on the media.
  • jeff_pickens
    "...extending the reach of the federal government substantially more into private lives than is appropriate."

    I agree with DLS.

    But I would note that the concept of perpetual campaigning didn't evolve over the last 9 or so months. It defined the Bush administration. His own staffers explained the concept. Most of Bob Woodward's books, and all of Ron Suskind's books describe the concept well. "The Price of Loyalty" was fairly revealing in that regard. Richard Clarke's books were fairly supporting of that concept as well.

    And I have a difficult time trying to reconcile that opening statement with warrant-less wiretapping, if we want to get specific about inappropriate reach-extending into private lives of Americans.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    DLS- So was it going to far when Reagan spoke to the kiddies? How about when he used that platform to push for tax cuts? How about when George H.W. Bush spoke to the kiddies was that ok? I think you are just part of the "okay for my side but the other side is satan" crowd.
  • VeratheGun
    DLS, it is making nothing up to state that the right is out of control, with their rhetoric and behavior. You can attempt to justify the craziness, the guns at rallies, the shouting and carrying on and calling people "commies", the outright LIES being spead, but the truth is, these people look like complete loonies and it will do the GOP no favors in the long run.
  • dude1394
    So funny that you lay this on talk radio. Were you nearly as outraged the last 8 years as dubya was called openly everything from mass murderer to actually even worse.

    The MOST vitriol that we have seen in this country has come from the left...but you think you are correct and enlightened so no matter....
  • dude1394
    Let's see where is the movie being planned of Obama's assasination? You guys are hilarious.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Don't harp one side of the issue and bash the other side then claim you're a non-partisan moderate, as Jazz constantly does.

    It's no surprise that the Republicans' divisiveness and misconduct are being sheepishly accepted (even admired, with personality-cult delight, instead) as a routine (and expected) matter by everyone.

    Fixed.
  • Silhouette
    "she is a talk radio listener"

    I like to make lemonade from lemons. It isn't often you can line one duck up in a row. How ironic if future history books wrote that from our nation's insistence in protecting one traitorous, malignant narcissist's love affair with his own voice over the radio waves brought an entire nation of 250 million to its knees.

    Freedom of speech stops at inciting riotous behavior.
  • DaGoat
    I think it would be reasonable to release the text of the speech beforehand so parents can review it's content. If it's just "work hard, stay in school" then great.

    I am probably in the minority as I do not believe kids should be exhorted to participate in community service. It's hard enough being a kid already. I want my children to work hard in school and their chores at home, then go enjoy their childhood. If Obama's speech contains things I don't agree with I'd like to know that so I can discuss them beforehand.
  • StockBoySF
    Joe, as you point out in your post talk radio is a huge cause of this problem, as are Republican leaders who do not "call bull" (I think that's how you put it). These conservatives (who are so against anything Obama says) can still be persuaded if their Republican leaders stop attacking Obama with lies and rally the country around the president (which is what they wanted under Bush). These conservatives did not grow up with the extreme bipartisanship.

    However these parents are now teaching their children that it is perfectly acceptable to disrespect the president (and any others they happen to disagree with) and perfectly acceptable to not to even listen to what he has to say. This value (and it is a value) is being ingrained in children during their formative years and won't go away.
  • tidbits
    It has grown so tiresome to have those on the Right call Democrats socialist, nazi...and to have those on the Left call Republicans knuckle-draggr and troglodyte.

    A couple of thoughts. Extremists on the Right are not conservertives; they are radical insurrectionists. Seccession, for example, is not a conservative principal. The same can be said for extremists on the Left; they are not progressives, but revolutionaries.

    Second thought. We are becoming a nation that wants to go to the carnival and see the freak show. Reality TV anyone? Our entertainment-based, eyeball hungry, media deluge us with the sensational, rather than the contemplative. Thoughtfulness is, well, boring. Only by increaing the level of outrageousness, can one get the cameras to turn on, the producers to air and the editors to publish. That's our fault by the way, not theirs. Their ratings come from us, and by our fixating on the most baffoonish of behavior we instruct them that this is what will attract those coveted eyeballs.

    We, all of us, have created this monster. Sadly, I don't know that we have the weapon to slay it.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    The movie about W.'s assassination was British and written and directed by British people not US Dem's, please try again. Also how many on the radio and TV were saying these things about W.? Oh yea they were not it was the internet, so for a fair comparison compare the W. haters with Red State and you find...the exact same thing in reverse with more venom and less cause. In a few years they may have good cause but right now they are screaming at the shadows they have invented in their own propaganda as little to nothing has happened yet.
  • archangel
    that Joe Klein is shocked, may be a clue to part of the issue: none of us who live 'down' where the rubber meets the road are shocked at the vitriol. We were shocked beginning ten years ago when various 'operatives' from ANY side, were slinging gasoline and rags into /over others... and so many many cheered this as free speech rather than the poorest of the poor kind of speech.

    just my two cents

    dr.e
  • AustinRoth
    Oh, so NOW the President is everyone's President. Why didn't I hear that message the past 8 years or so?
  • Jeepers. Is anybody but me finding the "but the others guys did it too" and "it only matters if it's YOUR president" arguments a tad tiresome?

    How does such stomping and finger-pointing move us away from the hyperbole?
  • I agree with Dr. E. I have said this here many times, that after 8 years of "Bushitler" references and worse, that Party Of Public Frenzy (Right Edition) was going to get some payback. And if Obama loses in 2012, the Party Of Public Frenzy (Left Edition) is going to reciprocate. Until folks cease and desist, this will continue on with unknown (yet undesirable) consequences.

    Back in by school days, I was very good at "playing the dozens" (going head-to-head in a improvised competition of often good-natured, ribald trash talk; taking turns insulting each other until someone couldn't "come back"). Oh it was fun until the good-natured portion would get dropped if an insult crossed the line. And then a fist would fly. Luckily this wasn't common but it happened. Right now, elements of the Left and the Right are "playing the dozens" with bad intentions on a large scale. And frankly, it stinks, sucks, and is stupid.
  • Your right AR. I remember talking to some friends when President Bush was in office and getting rhetorically lynched when I said "President Bush is everyone's President" (even though I vehemently disagreed with run-up to the Iraq War). You can't have it both ways. And if no President is your President, then why are we electing them?
  • JSpencer
    I keep waiting for some loyalty from the opposition to calm the extreme voices but they just keep jumping on board. ~ TMSF

    That would require true leadership and character, meaning the strength of character required to break away from A.) unworthy loyalties and B.) the clarity of vision to understand what is happening here.

    As for the false equivalence re: Bush, we've seen it all before, and it's proponents, in order to buy into that argument (such as it is) need to dispense with the idea that matters of degree do matter.

    And btw, I don't believe we are headed for any sort of civil war. Not even close.



  • VeratheGun
    Exactly. "But the other guy did it first" is not an excuse I would accept from a child displaying bad behavior. Why do we accept it from adults in the political arena? Where are the grown-ups? As far as I can tell, Obama, whether you agree or disagree with him, acts like an adult. The same cannot be said of much of his opposition, at this time.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Because Bush and Company took us into Iraq 18 months after 9/11. See, that was easy!
  • RickMoran
    I'm amazed you didn't even bring up the post speech study materials that are a rank attempt to politicize that nice little speech - even with the "How can I help Obama" stuff taken out.

    I applaud the president for telling kids to stay in school, study hard, and graduate. That message cannot be stated enough. But when the Department of Education clearly uses the speech to engender partisanship - that is wrong.

    No reason to get hysterical about it and keep kids home. But it is perfectly legitimate for the political opposition to call "foul" when the president's agenda is promoted as the only alternative to solving our problems.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    When did it begin against W.? By my memory the 2000 election was ugly but within a few months it had basically died out. W. was a popular punch line but that was about it until the invasion of Iraq which forgive me if I consider the invasion of a nation on trumped up charges while ignoring an actual security threat(afgh) to be an issue but I would also note that the Bush=Hitler meme was being sung by a hard left/libertarian choir not just the left like we like to remember. I would also like to note that this was while the president and all on his side were telling americans that they were either with him or with the terrorists and then painted any opposition as terrorist sympathizers not people that had a difference of opinion. The libertarians flipped out over the patriot act and joined the left in their "fear of Bush" party. Still even during said party where did Senators and House members get involved that were not immediately pushed out like Mckinney(forget her name now) was. Where were the leftie MSM then? Oh yea ignoring all of the Iraq fiasco until 6 months before the 04 election. I am not saying that the right has to like him but treating him this badly right out of the gate bodes horribly for the next Repub president and that is only if the right is not seen to be acting more like the left did during the late 60's early 70's when the left went extremist and all identity politics which is actually closer to the right of today. If that is noticed enough they will be in the wilderness a very long time.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I hope your right but I remember the OKC bombing and the similar propaganda campaign that helped fuel it, at the time I was a part of that militia movement as that was the area I was raised in. The difference is that the hatred venom and fear are at a much more extreme level now which makes me fear you may be wrong.
  • "But it is perfectly legitimate for the political opposition to call "foul" when the president's agenda is promoted as the only alternative to solving our problems."

    Ah Rick... if only the screeching were limited to calling "foul". I don't know where you live, but in my state (Texas) the over-the-top reaction has been nothing short of astounding.
  • DLS
    "But I would note that the concept of perpetual campaigning didn't evolve over the last 9 or so months."

    The "campaign" phenomenon may have been in effect in earlier years (by Bush people, notably) insofar as terrorism and security were exploited (the traditional view of Dems as weak against our foes, whatever foes, that was in the public's mind and exploited as such, during the 2004 elections), and in the Drug War efforts, etc., but is nothing like what we're seeing now. (Most of us were annoyed at the low level of gimmicky legal game-playing the Bush adminstration started doing to deliberately antagonize Congress.)

    Obama has "advanced" campaigning well beyond anything else so far. (Why?) The same is true of his school speech, addressing children directly (and indirectly, their parents) prior to addressing both houses of Congress, no doubt to be broadcast to the public. (Why?) This, in addition to the campaign trips to support bad legislation and ally himself with the lib Dems run amok in Congress, and the staged town hall meetings and staged press conferences that even fellow liberals have decried. (Why?) He is going beyond campaigning also in that he and his supporters have continued to exploit the personality cult (or be his groupies) that has continued, or been maintained, long after the election. (Why?)

    Opposition to the increasingly-misbehaving Congressional Dems, and Obama, who has not only allied himself with the divisive liberal Dems and their bad, controversial legislation, but has been divisive himself, such as when he insulted the decent, intelligent public nation-wide over the Gates affair -- something that should only have been a local event -- as a "teachable moment" [the same phrase being used to describe the opportunity the children will have after Obama's school speech, interestingly), may have taken several forms, but "lemon-picking" the worst (less bad than what was done against Bush, and Reagan before Bush) to mischaracterize all opposition as has been the case (it's not merely sensationalism, but is related to the attitude of "denouncement" and informants who were sought by the administration when public opposition to the health care overreach began to materialize) not only fails, but is backfiring, increasingly.

    No, Washington is not the Rousseauian "general will" of "the people," we are not (yet) a one-party Democratic nation (no more elections, no more need to steal any that are lost) in the process of being (all) yanked much farther left than the "safe and sane" prediction we were promised (as if we all believed it!), all unified under Washington, with Obama as our Father as well as our Savior. That may be too provocative (politically incorrect!) to those who want to be led in a herd, maybe, but such is reality.
  • tidbits
    AR said "so now the President is everyone's President. Why didn't I hear that message in the past 8 years or so?"

    Many of us did say that...and teach it to our children...even when we disagreed with policy issues of the Bush administration. Specific example: My wife and I disagreed from day one (actually three months before day one when it became obvious what was happening) with the Iraq invasion. But, when Bush went forward, we prayed for victory and the well being of our troops...and supported "our" President, hoping he knew more than we did in making that decision. We wanted our President, and our country, to succeed. Same with Obama. I disagreed strongly with the "Stimulus" package and the Continuing Resolution and disagree with many parts of health care reform, but he's still the President and the office deserves respect.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    DLS-So the issue you have is that it is being used for things you do not agree with and not that the campaign strategy is bad? Would it be ok if it were a taxes=theft campaign?
  • DLS
    "none of us who live 'down' where the rubber meets the road are shocked at the vitriol"

    Klein is like Broder and other DC-centered people and "DC fixtures," in this light. It's as if he still wishes with all his heart that it's still the 1960s or 1970s and the 1930s-onward liberal Democratic "boat" is still not being "rocked."

    Since the 1980s, it hasn't been only a liberal nation or liberal government, and both major political parties and general ideologies have exchanged possession of power in Washington. The liberal and Democratic elements have resented 1980 and been reactionary as well as defensive since then (no more monopoly; dissent or opposition can be substantial rather than superficial or negligeably token). The libs will press their advantage whenever they get it (left of the mainstream). The public is no longer as it was in the 1960s or 1970s (or expected to be); alternatives to the liberal networked media were found (and Fox later chose to fill the great vacancy that liberal orthodoxy had created).

    Hence the red and blue tents, red and blue smoke signals, red and blue war drums and war dances, and so on.
  • AustinRoth
    tidbits -

    I know - I am speaking rhetorically, not individually.
  • DLS
    "knuckle-dragger and troglodyte"

    Horsey is deliberately provocative (and deliberately slanted and more -- he angers many), but a good illustrator with a knack for definitely liberal depiction of "things."


    http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?...

    http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?...

    http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?...


    http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/popupV2.asp?sub...

    http://www.seattlepi.com/horsey/popupV2.asp?Sub...
  • CStanley
    In my view though, the reason that people rise to such levels is because those they oppose are ignoring them.

    If people here who are moderates are truly concerned about the levels of vitriole that they're seeing from the right, consider that your attempts to point out how whacked out these people are, to date, have not had a positive effect on dampening the anger- in fact just the opposite, you're stoking the flames.

    I know that's not your intent, for instance, PM- but when you imply that it doesn't matter if there's a core validity to the concern of the DOE's attempt to politicize Obama's speech to kids because the people who are reacting against it are 'over the top', your reaction doesn't calm people, it makes them more angry and unhinged.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CStanley-The problem is you can't calmly address an issue when the talking heads they take their history and civics lessons from can then just move the goal posts or say "well he said that but some people are saying..." which is how the game has been played for thirty years or so but it has hit a crescendo as of late.
  • CStanley, While reading your comment, I couldn't help checking to make sure my skirt wasn't too short or something.
  • DLS
    "I think it would be reasonable to release the text of the speech beforehand"

    The speech, and one or both lesson plans, were to have been revised (to emphasize educational goals specifically rather than the more general "what you can do to help the President," et cetera).

    So far, there's no text of the speech -- they're still working on it, probably. No easy Labor Day holiday?

    The current lesson plans are:

    ("The U.S. Department of Education provides resources for educators who may choose to use the president’s address as a teachable moment.")

    http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/prek-6.pdf

    http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/7-12.pdf
  • daveinboca's comment is a great case in point, CStanley. Where, in all that, would one look to find something to validate, in order to formulate a coherent, moderate response?
  • DLS -- they're releasing the text Monday: link
  • Various comments in this thread have been removed. Folks (not the commenters who's comments are still here), can we please chill with some of the name-calling?

    Damn I sound like my grandma...
  • jchem
    Its a bit ironic when you ask the question in this post and 42 subsequent comments follow it in a couple of hours. I think this may show us just where partisan politics is heading. Its pretty easy to put blame on the "talk radio political culture", but isn't much of the problem "the partisan blogging political culture"? It seems to me that the blogosphere has essentially morphed into a giant platform of talk radio--the partisans all get whipped up and feed the echo chamber, whatever the cause may be.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Some food for thought.

    Thinking about this situation more and looking back on US History:

    1. Is this level of polarization unique, historically speaking?
    2. Are both parties tactically equivalent with regards to rhetoric?
    3. Is there a way to reverse the trend of American political theater?
    4. Are these trends due to the internet, the 24 hour news cycle, the Presidency devolving into Actor-in-Chief, or some other factor?

    I welcome everyone's thoughts.
  • CStanley
    It's not that every single person should be addressed and have their concerns validated, PM. What I'm talking about is blog posts which continually berate the conservatives who oppose these things and never address the underlying concerns.

    To read a lot of the blogposts here, you'd think that there's nothing in Obama's agenda, rhetoric, and political tactics so far that in any way explains the reaction he's getting from a large portion of the populace- instead, this is all driven by the talk radio culture.

    You'd also think that there's nothing coming from the other side that's outraging people, even though we are seeing massive astroturfing by unions which are sometimes using heavy handed tactics, and just yesterday we heard about a conservative protester getting a finger bitten off. Bitten off. Stop and think about that for a moment, and consider that here at TMV there were people saying it was justified because the other guy started the fight. I have (surgically) disarticulated digits, and believe me, they don't detach easily. I can't even fathom how someone could be driven to that level of animal violence, to use one's teeth to amputate another person's finger. It's obscene, and I was revolted when people weren't willing to denounce it without playing the blame game about who started it.
  • CStanley
    Its pretty easy to put blame on the "talk radio political culture", but isn't much of the problem "the partisan blogging political culture"?

    Hear, hear, jchem.
  • VeratheGun
    It's not that hard to encite fear in a certain group of people, and when they are fearful, they will do all sorts of things that they normally wouldn't. This has been the Right's bread and butter for a lot of years now. Keep largely uninformed, uneducated and easily led partisans on the warpath to distract from the fact that the policies of the last eight years have been an abysmal FAILURE.
  • CStanley
    And that appears to be exactly the strategy that the left is now employing too, Verathegun, distraction from the problems with their own agenda, policies, and ethics.
  • CStanley
    I'm not sure what you mean by that, Magical. In terms of moving goalposts, I see an awful lot of that from the Obama healthcare reform proponents- whenever a conservative brings up a valid concern in the House bill, often on a topic that Obama has gone in front of the cameras defending, a lot of supporters respond by saying "There's not even a bill yet!" Talk about moving targets.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CStanley-On the finger thing, hitting the guy and starting the fight is not why I think he "had it coming." It was the headlock that reportedly preceded the bite, whoever the person was they were attempting to "defend" themselves at that point and much as I have learned from bikers do not start a fight unless you are willing to mame or kill to win it as that is what you expect your enemy to do. It is gross but I know many people with re-attached ears and fingers for reasons just like this, I wish it had not happened at a political rally or protest of any type but it was a fight and one that the man entered of his own volition. I probably would have walked away instead of throwing a punch because I am not willing to take it that far over an argument anymore, note I said anymore though in my younger years I would have and came somewhat close in a few instances.

    I do think the blogs are fueling it just like talk radio is though which is why I am pulling away from most blogs, this and Beyond the Beltway and fivethirtyeight being exceptions to that.
  • bobby_b
    It amazes me that seemingly intelligent people can look at the treatment being afforded to Obama and claim that it has reached some new low, that it has taken a turn for incivility unseen in our discourse until now, that it indicates some change in our national character.

    I'm a Republican. George Bush wasn't ever my first choice for president, but he gave every appearance, throughout his eight years as President, of being an essentially nice guy, with a good moral foundation buttressing some well-thought-out choices that he had to make during his tenure.

    And, for eight years, I watched as your cohorts vilified him, lied about him continuously, called him Hitler, ran horrid doctored photos of him that made him look evil or clownish or stupid, . . . . No, I won't even try to list it all - you know perfectly well what I'm talking about, and your feigned amazement now that people might be impolite to your president merely strengthens my firm conviction that y'all have no honor left at all.

    For several decades in this country, the left has abandoned all moral restraint in public discourse, while the right gave away the store to you by staying quieter. While you rioted in the streets (ask me about getting to work in a city hosting the RNC), we wrote letters and talked on the radio. About six years into Bush's presidency, many of us finally said, screw that, we'll deal with them in their own chosen fashion.

    And you don't like it very much, do you?
  • "...you'd think that there's nothing in Obama's agenda, rhetoric, and political tactics so far that in any way explains the reaction he's getting from a large portion of the populace..."

    I'm long-since on record with my own concerns about some of Obama's domestic agenda, but you've introduced something I've been curious about for some time. What rhetoric are you ascribing to Obama? Which tactics of Obama's, specifically, are the problem?

    I'm serious with my question -- because from where I sit, much of the divisive rhetoric and tactics are coming from Congress (and specifically, or most obviously, from the House). Now, one can make the case (as someone did in a discussion on exactly this last night) that because he's the 'captain of the political ship', he's just flat-out responsible for what the ham-handed Dems are doing.... and there's certainly some validity to that. But that doesn't seem (to me) to suit what your comment suggested.
  • VeratheGun
    Oh, so you admit it is a tactic used by the RIght for a number of years, now? Excellent, at least on that, we agree.

    As far as the rest of your assertion, I don't see that, at least not YET. The main problem with the health care proposal, that I can see, is that they left too much of it to Congress, and haven't strongly backed any one proposal. They have spent too much time arguing amongst themselves and trying to negotiate with the other side of the aisle, that was not negotiating in good faith. Major mistake. Back a bill and put it up for a vote. If the Republicans want to filibuster, that is their right and they should do it. And then the American people can see who has their best interests at heart. This needing 60 votes in the Senate is nonsense.
  • Lit3Bolt
    "Jeepers. Is anybody but me finding the 'but the others guys did it too' and 'it only matters if it's YOUR president' arguments a tad tiresome?"

    In a word Polimom, yes. However, what's just as bad though is the moderate dogma that both Left and Right are equally culpable and that by virtue of it's anti-partisan nature "moderation" is supreme, which I think is a fallacy that needs to be abused out of existence.

    So while on message threads we have the Itchy and Scratchy byplay, what's equally irritating is the tired, patronizing, cynical, "realist," moderate who comes down From On High to declare both political parties morally equivalent. Having bestowed his wisdom, the moderate can now rest. To me, that attitude is just as irritating.

    I'm not pointing any fingers, and everyone knows how I love to jump in the mud too. But it's a warning how any position in "the middle" or from "moderation" can become a new chorus line with predictable attitudes and lyrics, or worse, be used deceitfully by people interested in advocating their position and views and the expense of others. Just because you're "moderate" doesn't dismiss partisan views and arguments automatically (and I agree with some conservatives that Joe does this a lot). That's why I think it's better and more honest to simply admit your influences and biases beforehand and to wear your heart on your sleeve.
  • tidbits
    Lit3 - Good questions. Thank you.

    1. Historically, we have had other periods of hyper-partisanship. FDR brought that out as did Andrew Jackson, to name two. Clinton also engendered very personal partisan attacks. The difference is, those examples tended to come down to a few items, whereas now it seems all encompassing.
    2. My perception (others differ) is that both parties are tactically equivalent, though the tactics are different. The Right is in-your-face rude. The Left, more subtly, suggests that any opposition is populated by imbeciles. The styles are different, but their is a tactical equivalence. I would make one exception to that which is the not-so-veiled threat of violence coming more from the far Right at this point in history.
    3. If I knew of a way to reverse the trend of current American political theatre, I would be shouting it from the rooftops. I don't, but as jchem and t_steel point out above, we could start here with respectful, thoughtful comments (without name calling) and see if it catches on.
    4. Yes, I thought jchem made a great point about the internet and blogs.

    Not among your questions, I think this goes beyond politics. Fixating on the bizarre, particularly the cruel obsession with demeaning others (eating live insects, violent incidents, others being injured in dangerous stunts, et al) has become a disease that permeates our social fabric. It should be no surprise that it spills over into politics...or perhaps the political has spilled over into other areas. But, there is a real cruelty, a meanness of spirit, to all of this that diminishes us.
  • jeff_pickens
    I read a lot of stuff about the "personality cult" surrounding Obama. Glenn Greenwald did a bit of writing on this topic a few days ago, worth the read:

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/...

    Signing off--have a great day Americans!
  • Spaketh Conservative Christian in the OP's round-up above:

    While it appears the President’s speech will focus on the value of education and personal responsibility, federally-directed lesson plans set a concerning precedent for the government’s role in education. Education analyst Frederick Hess writes at the American Enterprise blog that the lesson plans “were developed with federal funds, devised on taxpayer time, and made available on the Department of Education’s website” and “might be construed as an invitation to engage in advocacy rather than instruction”.

    The most cursory poke at google, though, implies that this particular ship has long-since sailed. (link)
  • Lit3Bolt
    bobby_b, I eagerly await your complaints of Republican tactics during the Clinton years, as well as your apology for everything the Right has said of Gore, Pelosi, and Reid. Anytime now.
  • VeratheGun
    I call bulls**t. EVERY president sets himself up for ridicule. Every president sets himself up for being called names, having unflattering caricatures drawn, and whatnot, and this has been true for more than 200 years. But I don't recall anyone bringing guns to Bush's town hall meetings. And I don't recall fearing for Bush's life in anything outside of the normal sense that President's have to endure. And I don't recall talk radio hosts screaming for hours a day, inciting violence and hateful rhetoric, and revolutionary ideas. That, whether you will be honest and admit it, is solely the provenance of the Right.
  • CStanley
    PM- it would take more time than I have at the moment to detail the rhetorical/tactical stuff and give you exact references (I'm trying to preempt George Sorwell stepping in and complaining about my lack of links ;-) )

    But the way I see it is that he appears to stay above the fray but Gibbs and Emmanuel are extremely divisive, and it's unlikely that they're acting that way in contradiction to Obama's wishes. And then there are glimpses of Obama himself being a partisan baiter, when he's speaking to a friendly audience (the speech where he said that those who caused the problems need to be quiet now, etc, for one example) and the campaign arm website that still bears his name is extremely partisan/divisive. He also fails to reign in Pelosi and others when they call townhall participants terrorists, and his close association with Organizing for America, and calling on SEIU to mobilize to the townhalls, etc, is troubling. In short, I'd hoped that his campaign rhetoric about being postpartisan was genuine but I no longer can see it in that light, at all. He uses his cool demeanor to appear to be above the fray but it's clear from who he's staffed up with and how he's using them that it's a ruse, as far as I'm concerned.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I disagree with both sides moving goal posts because it causes even more insanity on the fringes but I am one of the people saying we do not have a bill but that is why I hate it being called Obamacare. If you want to call it that then wait till we have a bill if you want to complain about the current proposals call them by the proper name which is a proposal or bill being discussed not Obamacare which has yet to be weaved together. That would be a legit debate and any that move the goal posts should just be ignored but keep in mind that the bill is now taking shape so what could be perceived as goal post shifting is actually the solidifying of what is being called Obamacare. For instance I have been big on the Public Option but I also have no issue with waiting for a trigger if the rest of the bill makes good and significant changes that help.
  • CStanley
    VeratheGun- you probably haven't been reading my comments for very long if you think that I'm generally reflexively defensive toward 'the Right'. I do tend to push back against the over the top criticisms though.
  • jchem
    You raise some good questions Lit3Bolt. Historically speaking, I don't know. I think that now we just have a way (the Internet, etc) to spread it around. The two parties have always been against each other, we just see more of it now. I don't have much love for either party because I think they both use many of the same tactics to appeal to people, but I'm quite certain that partisans will always claim that the other party is the one with the crazies.

    Is there a way to reverse the trend? Again, I don't know. Part of the problem is we constantly have these circular arguments. "Could you imagine if <insert name> did this?" or "Where was the outrage then?" Basically what it boils down to is that two wrongs always seem to make a right in politics. Most partisans excuse bad behavior just because the other side did it before. Perhaps the trend could be reversed if we all got above that.

    And I think the trends can be due to a combination of the things you mention. But also, if we look at the last election, voter turnout was just over 60%. Perhaps the other 40% is now finally waking up from their slumber and directing a lot of anger at the current party in power. It's pretty easy to be mad at the party in power just because they are in charge.
  • Zzzzz
    I think this is a completely reasonable response. I wish more of Obama's political opponents had this same responsible attitude.
  • DLS
    Polimom -- I had read that earlier (text release on Monday), and I had hoped that it would have been released earlier than that.

    While it may well be that the administration wants all Labor Day weekend at hand to work on the revisions (to the speech but also to the lesson plans, don't forget), I suspect it's being released Monday so it's as close as possible before the speech, and also on a holiday when fewer will be occupied with this fact.

    What was amusing to me (but not surprising) was how MSNBC described it, Matthews-Maddow-style.

    (Did Chuck Todd get his text from the White House, too?)

    "The White House is releasing the full text of the president's speech to students on Monday -- a full 24 hours before President Obama delivers the speech live at noon ET a local Arlington, VA, high school. Obviously, this means parents and teachers will have plenty of time to read the text of the speech and decide for themselves about the content."

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/...
  • DLS
    " he appears to stay above the fray but Gibbs and Emmanuel are extremely divisive"

    Lightning rods and doing the dirty work...
  • DLS, I gather you see something significant in the wording of the MSNBC paragraph. I'm afraid, though, that you lost me. How do you think that should have been worded?
  • Lit3Bolt
    tidbits, thanks! I agree and I think American politics have ALWAYS been polarized to some degree or another. The effect that makes it seem more shocking is due to the internet echo chamber and the 24 hour news cycle. Events that were ignored in previous years are amplified and spread these days.

    I'm not sure it is a "sickness" within society but more of an addiction due to overabundance. It's akin to weight gain in America; I don't think people are consciously TRYING to get fat, it's due to an overabundance of calories everywhere you look, and now to be "thin" you have to have discipline and time to exercise, eat right, etc. when there was no incentive or need to do so before. I think it's the same with partisan thinking and polarization. People aren't TRYING to be polarized, but there's an overabundance of things to be outraged about from any and all political perspective. Instead of eating our "broccoli" news of the 3 major networks, we're now eating the rich Oreo Cream Pies of cable news constantly, with no respite.
  • CStanley
    I think that now we just have a way (the Internet, etc) to spread it around. The two parties have always been against each other, we just see more of it now.

    It's the political equivalent of porn- it's always been around (and always will be) but the internets have made it more pervasive, addictive for some people, and probably more vile and harmful to society.
  • CStanley
    I assume he means that they editorialized by saying that a 'full 24 hours' gave parents and educators 'plenty of time'- statements which DLS disagrees with, for one, and two, are obviously laden with praise instead of neutral reporting.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Thanks for the reply jchem. If you just think back to the 60's, I would say America was much more polarized then than it is now. You had Kent State, Watts riots, all the assassinations, and pro and anti war protests. Despite all the talk now, no one is dying, yet.

    All this "civil war" talk is alarmist and BS. America as a fading empire, yes, I agree with, but our culture is much more homogenized than it was before. If nothing else, we'd have to suspend the Great Republican vs Democrat civil war whenever football season rolled around.

    But the culture of polarization and hate is what is SELLING currently. No one is being sold on agreement or compromise. I stand by my belief that Rush, Beck, Hannity, Gore, Moore, and Olbermann and a whole host of others are in it simply for the moo-la-la. Somehow, we need to remove that financial incentive. Perhaps massive tax breaks for the network that runs shows on consensus?
  • This is really sad. I remember in elementary school watching a speech by the President to school children. The teacher played it on a small screen TV in front of the classroom. I don't remember a bit of what he said. I remember to this day how grown up I felt, how awed that the President of the United States was talking to US. To us kids. It was a special day and I felt honored.

    I feel sorry for kids today, who are apparently becoming protest tools and dragged into partisan hatred. I guess they don't make em like they used to. Parents that is. My parents hated President Kennedy, but never, ever did they try to make me hate him or encourage me to be anything but respectful and to honor the American system--to consider our President and our representatives, regardless of political party, as my elders and just like any adult, to be spoken to and about with politeness and respect.

    I guess I had no idea how good I had it. The parents who would keep their kids from school and miss what really is a special moment in a child's life, dishonor not only the President, but the school and their own children.

    Sad.
  • CStanley -- yes, no doubt you're right. Duh on me.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Lit3Bolt-I would only disagree on Moore, he like Grover Norquist has an agenda to sell and the profits I think he cares less about then the message. True believers are often more dangerous than high paid shills though as Moore and Norquist both illustrate.
  • Umm.... is anybody reading the updated round-up in the original post? There are some real doozies.
  • bobby_b
    My point wasn't, it's all the dems. My point was, stop acting like this is some new low into which the repubs have dragged us. It's the same old low.
  • CStanley
    Your skirt is fine though, PM. ;-)
  • CStanley
    The hysteria is idiotic. The parts that are valid though involve the DOE's original recommendations for teachers (good that they've revised parts of that), combined with past politicization of the classroom by some teachers (particularly a few that were noted by conservatives, who went way overboard in campaigning for Obama and who fawn over him.)
  • CStanley
    I think most of them are 'true believers' and they must feel that it's convenient that they can fight the good fight and get rich while doing it.
  • AustinRoth
    Sorry, I am still sticking with the idea that political anger was all well and good the past 8 years, but now is a sign of instability, hate-pandering, and a recent right-wing only problem is beyond hypocritical.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Polimom-Thanks for the heads up I missed the update and you are right, over the cliff right AND left go. I will defend the Economist article though because I think it actually captures reality pretty well and I am partial to their reporting currently.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    AR-Please stop saying 8 years, its either a lie or convenient forgetfulness. Bush was still sitting comfortably at this point and on 9/11 his numbers from right and left went through the roof in support. They did not go away until he tried to drag us into Iraq after months of getting the public to hit a 50% agree ratio before they invaded. I am sorry that your feelings got hurt but the left did not pull this for 8 years, closer to five years and I would also like to note that the Repub party joined in on the hatefest after 2006 when they saw that he was ruining the brand. If you want equivalence you have to wait until he has actually done some pretty major things to complain about, otherwise you are being actually worse then the side you are now saying was so evil.
  • DaGoat
    This is really sad. I remember in elementary school watching a speech by the President to school children.

    Woodrow Wilson was on TV?

    (sorry couldn't resist)
  • CStanley
    If you want equivalence you have to wait until he has actually done some pretty major things to complain about,

    He has, that's the point. Bush did very little during that first year in office, and then enjoyed a respite from the partisan vitriole in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. I think you're the one who's drawing a false equivalence to say that Obama's opponents should keep their powder dry, when the beginning of his administration has been far more active than GWB's was. I realize that a lot of Obama's (and Pelosi/Reid's) agenda is in response to current problems, but that doesn't mean that people have to agree with the solutions they're putting forth. And when it appears that the Dem leadership's goals have been to ride the crest of Obama's popularity to push sweeping legislation through very quickly (before 2010 can potentially bring a shift in power), there are very valid reasons for pushing back rather than reserving judgement on the current administration and Congress.
  • bobby_b
    "But I don't recall anyone bringing guns to Bush's town hall meetings."

    The Supreme Court only recently got around to recognizing that The Constitution expressed a strong preference that people be allowed to do so. Prior to Heller, they would have been dragged off and jailed. (For context, though, note that the four main networks, made up of an employee base that runs about 85% liberal, has actually moved on from simply spinning things to a pro-liberal slant, all the way to actively misreporting and lying about happenings such as this. They report three or four "guns at the meetings" stories, all of which turn out to have taken place blocks away or hours earlier or later. They cut out a black man's skin from a film clip, show the clothes and the gun, and use it as an entre' to discuss white racists there to kill Obama.

    "And I don't recall fearing for Bush's life in anything outside of the normal sense that President's have to endure.

    Similarly, Obama strikes me as being relatively safe from physical harm. I've seen no attempts, no plots, and certainly no threats in excess of what Bush saw.

    "And I don't recall talk radio hosts screaming for hours a day . . .

    Neither do I, historically or recently. who listens to talk radio? Not me. Not my friends or acquaintances.

    " . . . inciting violence and hateful rhetoric, and revolutionary ideas."

    No! No! Not . . . not . . . . "revolutionary ideas! (Gasp!) Oh, please. Go read this and then try again: http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621

    "That, whether you will be honest and admit it, is solely the provenance of the Right."

    Not by dint of some evil lurking in our hearts that liberals don't have - Franken and company proved we have radio because y'all are just so damn boring at it. But, seeing as you have the TV networks (except FOX, now), the newspapers, the late-night comedians, the movie directors, the actresses with the biggest breasts, and Tootsie, I'd say we're still way behind in the public dissemination of froth and spittle.

    ("Froth and Spittle". Cool name for a band!)
  • Kastanj
    You need to add Paul Brown, shameful congressman of Georgia.

    "He has the three things that are necessary to establish an authoritarian government [a national police force, gun control and control over the press]. And so we need to be ever-vigilant, because freedom is precious."

    I can't even have contempt for people like that. Mostly because I'm just fresh out at this stage. Meanwhile, armchair centrists are saying that this is comparable to BDS.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Actually this is exactly what Bush did in pushing through his tax cuts and again where was the extreme venom? He was on vacation a good amount of the time but he still pushed through his agenda through reconciliation no less.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    bobby_b-um actually I can think of two or three plots that were planned and thwarted to assassinate Obama off the top of my head and that is just nine months in. It is mostly from the racist groups though and not necessarily from the right though they did have some media figures that they liked from the right like Rush and Beck.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_...

    http://www.topix.com/city/glendale-co/2009/06/o...
  • Almoderate
    As another commenter said elsewhere... Remind me again where Dubya was on 9/11.
  • ordinarysparrow
    Where is it taking us? None of us know

    Where does it come from? What is the root?

    fundamentalism

    Who are the fundamentalist?
    The Biters
    The Birthers
    The Conservatives
    The Liberals
    The Libertarians
    The Right Wing
    The Left Wing
    Supreme Court Justices (ones that say things like Anothony Scalia. . ." "We are fools for Christ's sake. We must pray for the courage to endure the scorn of the sophisticated world.")
    Managment and Labor
    Religious
    Athesis
    The Shock Jocks
    The MeMeMe's
    The Wasters of the Environment
    The Enviromentalist
    and the list could go on an on. . .

    all of us who cannot allow a middle ground. . .
    all of us that have gone deaf and can only hear our own echo
    all of us who feel impotent as we gaze at the face of the monster we have created
    all of us that have not learned basic life skills of honor and respect

    Are we watching the great American suicide? Historically don't most countries destroy themselves?

    And what is the antidote to fundamentalism?

    Education

    Go figure. . . Now what was Obama's message to the children. . .

    Reprint of J Spencer first comment for this post. . .

    "This article, more than anything else, points up the need for and importance of education, especially the need for an electorate that has learned how to think critically - for itself. The alternative is a continued descent into a culture where people like Beck have a growing flock."

    sparrow chewing nails this morning. . .
  • Almoderate
    That's exactly what's being done. The text will be available the day before on the web.

    Regardless, I remember seeing the president speak at least a couple of times every year when I was in school. Our last president was in schools all the time. I have no idea why this is suddenly a new concept.
  • Almoderate
    Additionally... If I remember correctly, the whole point of the movie was about why Bush should NOT be assassinated.
  • Almoderate
    I don't think it's so much a "but the others guys did it too" but rather a "it's always been done by everyone so why is it such a big deal all of a sudden?"
  • Davebo
    CStanley said.

    I think you're the one who's drawing a false equivalence to say that Obama's opponents should keep their powder dry, when the beginning of his administration has been far more active than GWB's was


    Really?

    Here's Bush's first year accomplishments.

    1. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.

    2. Cut federal spending on libraries by $39 million.

    3. Cut $35 million in funding for doctors to get advanced pediatric training.

    4. Cut funding for research into renewable energy sources by 50%.

    5. Revoked rules that reduced the acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water.

    6. Blocked rules that would require federal agencies to offer bilingual assistance to non-English speaking persons. This, from a candidate who would readily fire-up his Spanish-speaking skills in front of would-be Hispanic voters.

    7. Proposed to eliminate new marine protections for the Channel Islands and the coral reefs of northwest Hawaii (please see San Francisco Chronicle, April 6, 2001).

    8. Cut funding for research into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks by 28%

    9. Suspended rules that would have strengthened the government's ability to deny contracts to companies that violated workplace safety, environmental and other federal laws.

    10. Approved the sending of letters by Interior Department appointee Gale Norton to state officials soliciting suggestions for opening up national monuments for oil and gas drilling, coal mining, and foresting.

    11. Appointed John Negroponte -- an unindicted high-level Iran Contra figure to the post of United Nations Ambassador.

    12. Abandoned a campaign pledge to invest $100 million for rainforest conservation.

    13. Reduced by 86% the Community Access Program for public hospitals, clinics and providers of
    care for people without insurance.

    14. Rescinded a proposal to increase public access to information about the potential consequences resulting from chemical plant accidents.

    15. Suspended rules that would require hardrock miners to clean up sites on public lands.

    16. Cut $60 million from a Boy's and Girl's Clubs of America program for public housing.

    17. Proposed to eliminate a federal program, designed and successfully used in Seattle, to help communities prepare for natural disasters.

    18. Pulled out of the 1997 Kyoto Treaty global warming agreement.

    19. Cut $200 million of work force training for dislocated workers.

    20. Eliminated funding for the Wetlands Reserve Program, which encourages farmers to maintain wetlands habitat on their property.

    21. Cut program to provide childcare to low-income families as they move from welfare to work.

    22. Cut a program that provided prescription contraceptive coverage to federal employees (though it still pays for Viagra).

    23. Cut $700 million in capital funds for repairs in public housing.

    24. Appointed Otto Reich -- an un-indicted high-level Iran Contra figure -- to Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs.

    25. Cut the budget of the Environmental Protection Agency by $500 million.

    26. Proposed to curtail the ability of groups to sue in order to get an animal placed on the Endangered Species List.

    27. Rescinded the rule that mandated increased energy-saving efficiency regulations for central air conditioners and heat pumps.

    28. Repealed workplace ergonomic rules designed to improve worker health and safety.

    29. Abandoned campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide, the waste gas that contributes to global warming.

    30. Banned federal aid to international family planning programs that offer abortion counseling with other independent funds.

    31. Closed the White House Office for Women's Health Initiatives and Outreach.

    32. Nominated David Lauriski -- an ex-mining company executive --- to post of Assistant Secretary of Labor for Mine Safety and Health.

    33. Approved a controversial plan by Interior Secretary Gale Norton to auction oil and gas development tracts off the coast of eastern Florida.

    34. Announced intention to open up Montana's Lewis and Clark National Forest to oil and drilling.

    35. Proposes to re-draw boundaries of nation's monuments, which would technically allow oil and gas drilling outside of national monuments.

    36. Gutted the White House AIDS Office.

    37. Renegotiated a free trade agreement with Jordan to eliminate workers' rights and safeguards for the environment.

    38. Will no longer seek guidance from The American Bar Association in recommendations for the federal judiciary appointments.

    39. Appointed recycling foe Lynn Scarlett as Undersecretary of the Interior..

    40. Took steps to abolish the White House Council on Environmental Quality.

    41. Cut the Community Oriented Policing Services program.

    42. Allowed Interior Secretary Gale Norton to shelve citizen-led grizzly bear re-introduction plan scheduled for Idaho and Montana wilderness.

    43. Continues to hold up federal funding for stem cell research projects.

    44. Makes sure convicted misdemeanor drug users cannot get financial aid for college, though convicted murderers can.

    45. Refused to fund continued cleanup of uranium-slag heap in Utah.

    46. Refused to fund continued litigation of the government's tobacco company lawsuit.

    47. Proposed a $2 trillion tax cut, 43% of which will go to the wealthiest 1 % of Americans.

    48. Signed a bill making it harder for poor and middle-class Americans to file for bankruptcy, even in the case of daunting medical bills.

    49. Appointed a Vice President quoted as saying, lf you want to do something about carbon dioxide emissions, then you ought to build nuclear power plants (Meet the Press)

    50. Appointed Diana Roth to the Council of Economic Advisers. (There is no gender gap in pay, Boston Globe, March 28, 2001.)

    51. Appointed Kay Cole James, an opponent of affirmative action, to direct the Office of Personnel Management.

    52. Cut $15.7 million earmarked for states to investigate cases of child abuse and neglect.

    53. Helped kill a law designed to make it tougher for teenagers to get credit cards.

    54. Proposed elimination of the Reading is Fundamental program that gives free books to poor children.

    55.1s pushing for development of small nuclear arms to attack deeply buried targets and weapons. This would violate the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

    56. Proposes to nominate Jeffrey Sutton, the attorney responsible for a recent case weakening the Americans with Disabilities Act, to federal appeals court judgeship.

    57. Proposes to reverse regulation protecting 60 million acres of national forest from logging and road building.

    58. Eliminated funding for the We the People education program which taught school children about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and citizenship.

    59. Appointed John Bolton, who opposes nonproliferation treaties and the UN, to Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.

    60. Nominated Linda Fisher, an executive with Monsanto, for the number-two job at the Environmental Protection Agency.

    61. Nominated Michael McConnell, leading critic of the separation of church and state, to a federal judgeship.

    62. Nominated Terrence Boyle, an ardent opponent of civil rights, to a federal judgeship.

    63. Canceled 2004 deadline for automakers to develop prototype high mileage cars.

    64. Nominated Harvey Pitts, a lawyer for a teen sex video distributor, to head SEC.

    65. Nominated John Walters, a strong opponent of prison drug treatment programs, to be Drug Tsar. (Washington Post, May 16, 2001.)

    66. Nominated J. Steven Giles, an oil and coal lobbyist, for Deputy Secretary of the Interior.

    67. Nominated Bennett Raley, who advocates repealing the Endangered Species Act, for Assistant Secretary for Water and Science

    68. Is seeking the dismissal of class-action lawsuit filed in the US against Japan by Asian women forced to work as sex slaves during WWII.

    69. Earmarked $4 million in new federal grant money for HIV and drug abuse prevention programs to go only to religious groups and not secular equivalents.

    70. Reduced the Low Income Home Assistance Program by 40%; it aided low-income individuals who need assistance paying energy bills.

    71. Nominated Ted Olson, who has repeatedly lied about his involvement with the Scaiffe-funded Arkansas Project to bring down Bill Clinton, for Solicitor General.

    72. Nominated Terrance Boyle, a foe of civil rights, to a federal judgeship..

    73. Proposes to ease permit process, including environmental considerations, for refinery, nuclear and hydroelectric dam construction. (Washington Post, May 18, 2001.)

    74. Proposes to give government the authority to take private property through eminent domain for power lines.

    75. Proposes that $1.2 billion in funding for alternative renewable energy come from selling oil and gas lease tracts in the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve.

    76. Plans on serving genetically engineered foods at all official government functions.

    77. Forced out Forest Service chief Mike Dombeck and appointed a timber industry lobbyist.


    Now what exactly has Obama done, or even specifically proposed that justifies the idiocy we are seeing among many on the right exactly?
  • kathykattenburg
    But the way I see it is that he appears to stay above the fray but Gibbs and Emmanuel are extremely divisive, and it's unlikely that they're acting that way in contradiction to Obama's wishes.

    I find this truly inexplicable. I agree that Rahm Emanuel is divisive, but it's in favor of the Republicans, not the Democrats' progressive base. Rahm Emanuel is the one who bargained away single-payer in negotiations with the insurance companies in exchange for their promise not to work to defeat a public option, and when they worked to defeat a public option anyway, Emanuel is in the camp that's pressing Obama hard to drop the public option. Rahm Emanuel has been nothing less than heaven-sent for both the GOP and the insurance companies.

    As for Obama failing to "rein in" Pelosi when she called townhall participants "terrorists," did anyone in the GOP leadership "rein in" John Boehner when he approvingly commented on the screaming and disruptiveness of many anti-hcr townhall participants by saying it was going to be a "long, hot summer"? And I do hope you know what that particular phrase means, what it references. John Boehner knows.
  • DLS
    "I feel sorry for kids today, who are apparently becoming protest tools and dragged into partisan hatred."

    Yes, indeed.

    1980s. Anti-Reagan-USA-and-West, child-exploiting "Nuclear education," "peace education," etc., as well as other, similar exploitation of children by "progressives" and related operatives in the schools.

    It's not a surprise (once again, as with health care) that there is a substantial historical basis for concern, as well as concern arising from the nature and politics of the current lib Dems in the executive branch as well as in Congress, and in this case involving Obama's personality cult (which nobody has refuted), and an unending campaign (like "revolutions" elsewhere that never end) that features scripted, staged "town hall" appearances, as well as staged press conferences this year.

    As I've posted elsewhere: Don't be surprised if Arne Duncan's department and others in the Obama administration become involved with, say, Educators for Social Responsibility and we see curricula changes in the future. What was done with "nuclear war" could be reapplied to "global warming," as we've already seen with the latter as with guns, and earlier with nuclear war, as a "public health" problem involving medical education as well as elementary and secondary education of children.

    (Nobody sane, after what the Dems have done this year, would fail to be concerned if changes to curricula were discussed later, in order to achieve "consistency" or "uniformity" or "standards," and "effectiveness" along with, say, "appropriateness," nation-wide. These people raise concerns.)
  • Lit3Bolt
    It doesn't work like that TMSF. Moral equivalence means my biases and hatred are justified and yours are not and never will be, and context and history go down the memory hole.

    Democratic anger over the 2000 election? Unjustified.
    Angry over the Patriot Act and DHS? Traitor.
    Angry over the Iraq War? BDS.
    Angry over gov't response to Katrina? Bush bashing.

    Republican anger at Obama winning the election? A noble patriotic effort by deep thinking luminaries eager to water the tree of liberty.
    Angry over the health care reform? A true fiscal conservative and/or moderate.
    Worried that Obama is socialist and is going to zap the children through the TV with his evil red commie eyes? Let's get you on TV as quickly as possible.
  • kathykattenburg
    VeratheGun- you probably haven't been reading my comments for very long if you think that I'm generally reflexively defensive toward 'the Right'.

    I've been reading your comments for a very long time, and I definitely think that you are generally reflexively defensive toward the right -- your implication here that "over-the-top criticisms" describes liberals'/Democrats' response to the rights' behavior rather than that behavior itself, being one example.
  • CStanley
    Good gosh, Davebo, I sincerely hope that at least some of that was cut and paste and that you didn't actually take the time to type such a long list. Sorry, but I have neither interest nor time in trying to match you toe to toe. If you don't think that the recent legislative agenda has been controversial, nor that Obama's appointments have been 'postpartisan' or without controversy, then I'm sure no specifics that I cite will convince you.
  • "it was going to be a "long, hot summer"? And I do hope you know what that particular phrase means, what it references. John Boehner knows."

    Kathy, what are you talking about? What, exactly, is it that you and John Boehner know? Cuz I don't.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    DLS-Sadly Reagan Bush Clinton and Obama all have had well documented personality cults. In fact Reagans has lasted for around 30 years. It is not new, its a throwback to our authoritarian pre-revolutionary war days I assume either way though your being knee jerk here and still ignoring Reagan and both Bush's history of doing the same which puts you on the "my side right your side bad" side that can be easily ignored.
  • DLS
    "As for Obama failing to "rein in" Pelosi when she called townhall participants 'terrorists,' [and 'un-American,', etc.] "

    he, who has been other than fully honest with Americans, and his administration sought to have the susceptible or collaborative among the public behave as informers or "denouncers" of dissent, after choosing to join the lib Dems in madly rushing to pass bad legislation. Reins are long, long overdue.

    Even suggesting that the crazily cascading logs are overdue for a flume, to set basic limits, is un-PC.
  • Davebo
    Sorry, but I have neither interest nor time in trying to match you toe to toe. If you don't think that the recent legislative agenda has been controversial, nor that Obama's appointments have been 'postpartisan' or without controversy, then I'm sure no specifics that I cite will convince you.


    I'm not asking you go "toe to toe". I'm asking you to support your claim.

    And yes, it's fine to decline.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Oh, thou noble martyr, DLS.

    We've been discussing health care for how many months now? And it's STILL going too fast for you?

    And I'm sure you reflexively bemoaned of the unseemly haste Bush and Congress acted with after 9/11, and tax cuts? Just sayin'.
  • Kastanj
    ""As for Obama failing to "rein in" Pelosi when she called townhall participants 'terrorists,' [and 'un-American,', etc.] ""

    SHE DIDN'T DO THAT.
  • CStanley
    your implication here that "over-the-top criticisms" describes liberals'/Democrats' response to the rights' behavior rather than that behavior itself, being one example

    My comment about 'over the top criticisms' refers to general criticisms of the right, starting several years ago, at TMV. And it's not surprising that you might not agree with me that the general tone here has been over the top in that regard, since you are one of the people that I often take issue with.
  • kathykattenburg
    And when it appears that the Dem leadership's goals have been to ride the crest of Obama's popularity to push sweeping legislation through very quickly....

    Isn't that what the Bush administration did after 9/11 when they were riding a high tide of popularity?
  • CStanley
    ""As for Obama failing to "rein in" Pelosi when she called townhall participants 'terrorists,' [and 'un-American,', etc.] ""

    SHE DIDN'T DO THAT.


    You may be right, Kastanj- I actually believe that it was Obama's Organizing for America website that referred to protesters as 'right wing terrorists' before someone caught it and it went down the rabbit hole.

    I'm pretty sure Pelosi did say "unAmerican" though, and called the protests astroturf.
  • CStanley
    I think all presidents try to use their political capital in that way, Kathy- but none of them should be surprised at backlash if they go too far, too fast.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CStanley-I think it has less to do with what a president does and more to do with how what is done is framed. If you have a 24/7 infomercial for a single political party that parties side gets much more frenzied then they would have otherwise been. For examples see fox news or what happened not long after msnbc moved left. Fox probably would have had a larger effect on Clinton if the public did not know him yet but he was well established before Fox News went live.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Did you object to Jazz describing all Dems as tax and spend snakes in the grass, CStanley? It's ok if you didn't, because we all know Jazz was "just joking" and being a card. Kathy, however, is shrill and has been 'over the top;' therefore, this invalidates every article, point and post she has made?

    My point is, don't be all "OH NOES HYPERBOLE SHRIEK!" Both sides use it; both sides ignore it when their side uses it; and hell, even JOE, Mr. Uber-moderate, uses it in this article and in his imagery.
  • kathykattenburg
    Polimom, "long hot summer" is a metaphorical reference to the race riots of the 1960s. That phrase became a way of referring to the violence that occurred in inner cities almost always in the summertime, probably because the oppressive heat turned people and communities with real grievances into tinderboxes ready to explode. Maybe you are too young to remember this (if that's you in that picture, you definitely are!), but I assure you, John Boehner knew exactly what he was doing when he used those particular words. He was not telling us that we were going to have a lot of good beach weather.
  • SteveK
    CStanley wrote: "If you don't think that the recent legislative agenda has been controversial, nor that Obama's appointments have been 'postpartisan' or without controversy, then I'm sure no specifics that I cite will convince you."
    This is not the first time you've made this claim and this will not be the first time I've posted the "Legislation of the 111th Congress" to disprove your claim.

    Maybe this time you'll comment on the link.
  • kathykattenburg
    Okay, well, of course, I was not a contributing writer here several years ago, but it IS undeniably true that I am one of the people you often take issue with, and vice versa.
  • "So while on message threads we have the Itchy and Scratchy byplay, what's equally irritating is the tired, patronizing, cynical, "realist," moderate who comes down From On High to declare both political parties morally equivalent. Having bestowed his wisdom, the moderate can now rest. To me, that attitude is just as irritating."

    I neither think I'm "on high" nor am I cynical. And it's a fact that both parties play the same equally stupid back and forth game. And I wear my heart on my sleeve: in declaring the stupidity and recklessness of the Big 2's constantly escalating rhetoric.

    'Nuff said.
  • CStanley
    litbolt- I have at times commented that I think Jazz's rhetoric is inflammatory. I don't recall in the specific example you cited, if I commented at that time. Plenty of people here push back when Jazz says things like that, and I am one of a few people who object to posts from the liberal bloggers here when they use that kind of tone. Personally I think it should be used very sparingly for this blog to live up to its name, and at least I feel less annoyed by it when a particular blogger is willing to apply the strong criticisms wherever they're due rather than just pointing out egregious examples from one side or the other. If you think that Jazz is as partisan in that regard as are some of the liberals who use provocative tone, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

    And since we're probably treading pretty close to violating comment policy by reviewing the bloggers, I'll leave it at that and hope that I haven't crossed the line.
  • Davebo, I understand what your conveying but can you please try to limit the long posts. It breaks up the "flow" of the comments.

    Thanks!
  • kathykattenburg
    Which Pres. Bush and V.P. Dick Cheney definitely did (go too far, too fast). And actually, it's worse than that. Because what Pres. Obama is trying to do in reforming health care is something positive, beneficial, and necessary -- the basic concept of it, that is. You and others may feel he is going "too far too fast," and we can and do disagree on that, but I think even you would agree that the health care delivery system needs reforming and that health care reform is something that, if done right, will improve the quality of Americans' lives.

    The same cannot be said of the sweeping legislation pushed through Congress after 9/11. It was not a matter of "going too far, too fast." It was a matter of using the tragedy of 9/11 and the reflexive support that the White House was getting from a very frightened public to implement draconian policy and legal changes that could not be justified under any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution, and the effect of which was deeply harmful to our individual liberties and political freedom. And anyone who uttered a peep of criticism at that time was labeled unpatriotic or worse.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CStanley-One of the things I like about this blog is that inflammatory titles often get toned down in the actual articles or are looking for the other side to please explain something extreme away. I cant say their is no inflammatory material but it is much less than elsewhere as far as I have found. Of course if I am not atleast a little offended by some things I read I usually stop reading a site as I prefer to not be preached to when I am a member of the choir.
  • Oh boy. The "moderate voice" debate rears again (not picking on anyone). Hey Joe, maybe we can change the blog's name to "The Meaty Voice" since alot of writers have meaty (in a good way) opinions! Then I can post pictures of my world-famous (almost) BBQ to bring in the Food Network people. CHA-CHING!
  • Rambie
    "Oh, so NOW the President is everyone's President."

    Oh please, AR. We DID hear that during the GW administration. I also know your old enough to remember "My president is Charlton Heston" bumper stickers during the Clinton years.

    I don't remember anyone claiming that Bush wasn't their President. Can you show me quotes?

    How many school districts refused to show Regan or the first Bush's speech? How many parents kept their children home when they hear GW was going be reading My Pet Goat to a group of children?

    I'll admit there was plenty of hate coming from the far left.
  • Rambie
    I agree there was plenty of hate from the left during the G W Bush years and that we're seeing the pay back. However, were we not seeing the "pay-back" of the Clinton years?
  • Davebo
    I apologize TSteel.

    But the statement was so ludicrous I felt it needed some push back.
  • Polimom, "long hot summer" is a metaphorical reference to the race riots of the 1960s.

    Kathy -- I was afraid you were going to say that. I'm sorry, but I see this interpretation as a weak attempt to play the race card. I myself used a very similar phrase in a very recent post, and not a single person thought I was referring to anything other than hot days and heated tempers. August is hot. Days are long. Why does there have to be something insidious and racist to it?
  • I really appreciate Davebo's list (heh, of course I would). True, if it's available elsewhere, it could have been linked. But I for one appreciate the clarification that there were LOTS of things for which to criticize Bush and it was not BDS to do so. In that context, it was appropriate to the topic. I agree with Davebo that there are no lists of outrages from Obama to match degrading the safety of our food, water, drugs, air, environment, etc. There are, however, things I would list as my own disappointments on Obama's 7 months to date.
  • joegandelman
    TYRONE ET. AL: I'm offline for most of the day and need to copy this so I can paste this when I need it (about three times a week).

    1. Polls show that moderates, independents and centrists are not monolithic. 2. When someone from the left or right (and sometimes they believe only they are the center) about a post or a site not being moderate or centrist it usually means there is a post or idea they don't agree with or don't like so that means the other person can't be moderate. 3. This mantra that starts up (it happens on posts we have that may be more to the center right, center left or flat out center) is usually a diversionary flourish: rather than address the issue in the post, someone decides to try and turn it into a debate about the writer or a website (not just TMV). In fact, the issues are the issues in this post and over 100 comments show that most people are debating the issues or raising new ones related to the post. That is what we love to see in comments..

    4. TMV has a ton of writers and we also run guest voices from the right or left (READ the description of the site at the top). And if some people don't like us running a viewpoint or giving an honest take, then that's life. But we will continue to give our honest take on events. Turning threads into discussions about whether a post fits someone who veers left or right's opinion of what a real moderate is (i.e. how THEY view something) is really not what comments are all about -- and doesn't reflect the reality of polls that show that, yes, moderates, centrists and independent voters do not all vote alike and to be a moderate does not mean you talk or sound like a CSPAN host.

    But the bottom line is that when that starts up it's a sign that someone has either run out of arguments or is trying to put a writer on the defensive. It's quite old, a cliche by now and will not impact us offering our honest takes on events and running a variety of content and Guest Voices on TMV.
  • DLS
    "CHA-CHING!"

    The anti-meat folks won't like it.

    * * *

    " And it's STILL going too fast for you?"

    I'm not the one (nor on the side) that's not up to speed historically and politically about the subject.

    * * *

    "How do you think that should have been worded?"

    Not "snould," but "should not." At the very least, "Obviously, ... plenty of time" was ridiculous.
  • CStanley
    Steve, I don't know what it is you want me to comment on. That link is to a list of the names of bills, which of course are always innocuous sounding (it would be like a conservative saying 'How in the world can you object to "The Patriot Act" or "The Homeland Security Act".)

    The list overall is way too broad and covers too much ground for me to comment on, and on some of the major stuff I've certainly weighed in (ARRA, the budget) and some of the bills are shams (oversight of TARP), while the House policies have been abysmal in terms of how she's handling ethics.
  • DLS
    "'long hot summer' is a metaphorical reference to the race riots of the 1960s"

    Boehner was not threatening riots in the streets.
  • CStanley
    I am not familiar with that reference either, Kathy, and I think to make the claim that it was some kind of dog whistle is a bit odd since I doubt most people know that context you're referring to.
  • Rambie
    DLS: "The 'campaign' phenomenon may have been in effect in earlier years (by Bush people, notably)... "

    Wasn't that why Karl Rove was in the White House for most of President Bush's two terms?
  • SteveK
    CStanley wrote: "I'm pretty sure Pelosi did say "unAmerican" though, and called the protests astroturf."
    Well, you're half right and you brought out the disproved "unAmerican" spin, too.

    Here's the ONE SENTENCE reply she gave a reporters question
    Pelosi: I think they are Astroturf. You be the judge … carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.
    FactCheck looked into it and they posted a video with protesters "carrying swastikas and the like". Their conclusion to this intentional misinformation campaign is:
    Pelosi did not actually accuse opponents of being neo-Nazis; that’s just the way Limbaugh and others chose to interpret her phrase, "carrying swastikas and symbols like that." It is clear from the images in hand that the anti-Obama protesters were the ones accusing others of Nazi-like tendencies. And Pelosi turns out to be right.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    Steve K:

    Thanks for the link.

    Since DaveBo posted the "achievements " of Bush during his first twelve months in office, it might be appropriate to post the legislation signed by Obama and passed by the House during Obama's first seven months in office. Because of space restrictions (and to comply with TJ's wishes, I am leaving out executive oders, presidential appointments, etc., etc signed by Obama.and descriptions of the legislation) Hopefully some of this legislation had GOP support
    SIGNED INTO LAW
    LILLY LEDBETTER FAIR PAY ACT, H.R. 11
    HEALTH CARE FOR 11 MILLION CHILDREN,H.R. 2
    DIGITAL TELEVISION DELAY, S. 352
    AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT, H.R. 1
    2009 APPROPRIATIONS BILLS, H.R. 1105
    OMNIBUS PUBLIC LANDS MANAGEMENT ACT 0F 2009,
    EDWARD M. KENNEDY SERVE AMERICA ACT,
    STRENGTHENING OVERSIGHT OF TARP,S. 383
    HELPING FAMILIES SAVE THEIR HOMES ACTH.R. 1106
    FIGHTING MORTGAGE AND CORPORATE FRAUD & CREATING COMMISSION ON CAUSES OF CRISIS,HR. 386

    MILITARY PROCUREMENT REFORM,S. 454

    CREDIT CARDHOLDERS BILL OF RIGHTS, H.R. 627
    PASSED BY HOUSE
    TARP ACCOUNTABILITY AND PAY FOR PERFORMANCE ACT, TARP Accountability (H.R. 384)
    Pay for Performance Act (H.R. 1664) Passed April 1, 2009
    CAMPUS SAFETY,H.R. 748
    STOPPING ABUSE IN TEEN PROGRAMS, H.R. 911
    WATER QUALITY INVESTMENT ACT,H.R. 1262 ,
    HOMELAND SECURITY BILLS, including the Reducing Over-Classification Act, H.R. 553; the Fair, Accurate, Secure, and Timely (FAST) Redress Act, H.R. 559; and the National Bombing Prevention Act, H.R. 549.
    BONUS RECOUPMENT, H.R. 1586
    EMERGENCY WILDFIRE SUPPRESSION, H.R. 1404
    VETERANS BILLS, to provide earned benefits and crucial services to our veterans, who have served with honor and bravery. These measures provide a cost of living increase for veterans’ disability benefits, expand employment services for homeless veterans, and fully reimburse veterans for emergency care.H.R. 1513, H.R. 1171, and H.R. 1377 Passed March 30, 2009
    PUBLIC HEALTH BILLS, in recognition of Public Health Week, the House passed eight key public health bills.
    Passed March 30 and 31, 2009
    FREE FLOW OF INFORMATION, H.R. 985 Passed March 31, 2009
    REDUCING MILITARY FAMILIES TAX, which currently unfairly penalizes the 55,000 surviving spouses of military personnel who died as a result of their service-connected injuriesH.R. 1804 Passed April 1, 2009
    BUDGET BLUEPRINT, . Con. Res. 85 Passed April 2, 2009
    FDA REGULATION OF TOBACCO, H.R. 1256
    ENVIRONMENTAL BILLS, H.R. 1580 and H.R. 957
    PUTTING 50,000 COPS ON THE BEAT, H.R. 1139
    WATER RESEARCH AND EVELOPMENT,.H.R. 1145
    HATE CRIMES PREVENTION ACT, h.R. 1913
    MORTGAGE REFORM AND ANTI-PREDATORY LENDING, H.R. 1728
    GREEN SCHOOL MODERNIZATION, H.R. 2187
    JOB CREATION THROUGH ENTREPRENEURSHIP,H.R. 2352 R>
    WAR SUPPLEMENTAL BILL, to provide funds for the remainder of FY 2009 to provide our troops in harm’s way with what they need, implement the President’s plans for winding down the war in Iraq and changing strategy in Afghanistan, require a report on progress, and fund pandemic flu response










































  • CStanley
    Kathy, that's purely a matter of opinion and perspective (Obama's big push = GOOD, to you, while Bush's was BAD, and many people see it the other way around.)

    Since Obama has not used his mandate to reverse a lot of the policies that you say "could not be justified under any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution", I'd say that point is highly debatable and not all unanimously agreed upon.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Admittedly there could be some knee jerk reaction to this but that reaction is in response to almost 40 years of using the Southern Strategy to win votes which did have a side effect of raising racial tensions. From my point of view though wouldnt it be wise for Boehner to be very careful of saying such things due to the Southern Strategy now shifting from a winning to a losing strategy?

    It reminds me of one of the post-Katrina arguments that I had. After being told that Kanye was satan incarnate for saying what he did about W. at the awards show and how this smeared the Repub party unfairly I noted that they are still using the Southern Strategy to win votes. Which to me is like the Dems crying that they are being painted as people that want to take away our guns. The gun thing is going away but that is due not to people screaming "stop saying such things" but because they as a party have decided to stay away from it and let it go. That is a very long way of me saying if you do not like the Repubs being painted as racists or being reacted to like they are racists the best strategy is to stop acting like it. Currently they are actively reverse race baiting(the habit that began in the 80's of showing how racism is much worse against white people) this is not a strategy to end the label that they have but to extend it. David Duke actually invented it when he re-branded the KKK as a civil rights organization for white people to show pride in their race. This is way off topic but the historical context is important to any possible knee jerk reaction.
  • kathykattenburg
    Polimom,

    I don't know which "similar" phrase you used or the context you used it in, so I can't really comment on that. But in the context Boehner used that specific phrase, it's pretty clear that's what he meant. It strains credulity to imagine that he was referring to the weather when he sent out this Tweet: "Dems' Long, Hot Summer: Americans Express Growing Opposition to Dems' Job-Killing Plans on Energy, Health Care: .. http://bit.ly/mVnAL" Here is the link, Polimom. That is about as blatant as it can be. And irresponsible only begins to describe it. In my view, it's despicable. YMMV.

    As far as "playing the race card," Polimom, that particular activity has a very, very long history in this country, but it's only when it's done in reverse (pointing out racist language or behavior as opposed to speaking or behaving in a racist fashion) that many people will notice it.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CStanley-Which basically ends a debate that started with Bush was attacked for no good reason but Obama's policies are extreme with um so basically if you like right wing stuff Bush was fine and if you like left wing stuff Obama is fine.
  • CStanley
    From my point of view though wouldnt it be wise for Boehner to be very careful of saying such things due to the Southern Strategy now shifting from a winning to a losing strategy?

    Doesn't that in itself argue for the perspective that Boehner probably WASN'T making a racially loaded threat? Either you accept the words at face value or you're basically saying he's too dumb to know that this is a losing strategy (and well, I'm no fan, so maybe he is that dumb, but I have no reason to think that he was being stupid or overly provocative in making a prediction that the Dems were going to face heat from their constituents during the August recess.)

    The problem with your logic about how the GOP should just stop making these references- is that no one but you guys knows what the references are. Every comment is parsed as though they're dog whistles, even though much of the time the people who are supposed to have the audible range to hear these things don't hear them that way at all.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    TS:

    As the list of Obama accomplishments was too long, I tried to edit it, cut it down, and eventually even delete major parts of it, but "the system" didn't let me, especially all the blank space at the end.

    Please feel free to delete. I think the point has been made

    Thanks

    Dorian
  • kathykattenburg
    That's the nature of dog whistles, Christine. I have no doubt you and Polimom don't know the subtext around that phrase, and maybe that's because you didn't grow up during the civil rights era, or weren't actively involved in it, or whatever. Maybe it's true that most white people don't know the context. I would bet you a dinner in Atlanta's fanciest restaurant that most African Americans do. And of course I'm not African American, but I did grow up during the civil rights era and I *was* raised in a family that took a very active and strong interest in these issues. I heard the phrase and read the phrase used innumerable times during that era.

    And again, John Boehner knew what he was doing. That's obvious from the tweet. He did not just happen to choose those words by chance. I even heard a well-known Republican strategist comment on it on tv at the time -- and of course I can't remember the name of the person, but if I do or can find it, I'll post it here. He said that Boehner knew what he was saying and that it was incredibly irresponsible.
  • CStanley
    I'm not really following you, Magic, because if someone said that "Bush was attacked for no good reason" I must have missed it. I think he faced severe backlash for overreaching, just as Obama is now facing it. My only argument was with the idea that it's happening so soon toward Obama- because I pointed out that there is an early overreach by Obama, aided by his alliance with the left wing led Congress.

    Despite Davebo's laundry list, I still don't agree that the complaints there during Bush's first year in office are "sweeping" in the same way that the current agenda is. I mean, just recently I was at a dinner party with a European social Democrat (a Swede who currently lives here) who said he couldn't believe how fast the Dems are currently moving, and he was very concerned about the unsustainable deficit spending.
  • CStanley
    Kathy, you're not making sense. Who was Boehner trying to call out with dog whistles? If people like yourself are the ones who would 'get' the reference, surely you're not saying that he was calling on you and your cohorts to incite riots?
  • CStanley
    Sorry to say that I don't get your point, Dorian. That the list is long only proves my point- that Obama and the Dem Congress are moving fast and that's provoking backlash. That the bills have nice sounding names doesn't prove a thing- even a lot of GOP bills that I disagree with would have pleasant, sometimes Orwellian, names so that listing them by title doesn't allow people to form an opinion one way or another on the content or effect of the bill.
  • kathykattenburg
    Well, surprise, surprise, Christine! I agree that it's a matter of opinion and perspective!

    What I just can't figure out, though (scratching my head here) is how, or why, you can see that it's a matter of opinion and perspective with regard to the sweeping legislation that the Bush admin put through after 9/11and of course it's just a matter of how you look at it, and nothing to do with whether Bush's legislation was objectively way too much too soon and too sweeping and ramming it through with no public discussion --but when you are commenting on health care reform under Pres. Obama, we get stuff like this: "And when it appears that the Dem leadership's goals have been to ride the crest of Obama's popularity to push sweeping legislation through very quickly (before 2010 can potentially bring a shift in power), there are very valid reasons for pushing back rather than reserving judgement on the current administration and Congress."

    Where, oh where is the nuance NOW, Christine? I mean, don't you realize that those "very valid reasons" you refer to are only "very valid" to you and people who share your views, and that to others they may not be valid at all?

    /end snark
  • Lit3Bolt
    "I neither think I'm "on high" nor am I cynical. And it's a fact that both parties play the same equally stupid back and forth game. And I wear my heart on my sleeve: in declaring the stupidity and recklessness of the Big 2's constantly escalating rhetoric."


    I don't think you are T-Steel. It's more of a warning that disgust with the Big 2 can be partisan attitude as well, as well as the dogma that Republican=Democrat, and moderate>>Democrat or Republican. It's not a bad dogma, I think it comes out of many peoples' desire for more than 2 parties. It's just that many, many on both the Right and Left MSM use "moderation" as a defensive shield to advocate their own views on an issue without fear of partisan reprisal, as if any response from a Democratic or Republican perspective is therefore invalid. If that's true, then we should probably all start flipping coins marked with Ds and Rs (or just vote for Bob Barr! lol jk T-Steel plz plz plz don't ban me).
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Actually I think Boehner did not intend it that way and stumbled into a badly phrased tweet. Having said that those "dog whistles" are not really dog whistles, they are pretty straight forward like the Willie Horton ads were. If you are of the offended race you are offended, if you agree you are happy to be validated and if you dont agree but do not care enough to be offended then it does not effect your vote. That is how the southern strategy was planned, the aggrieved group would not vote for them anyway and they get the larger voting pool.

    Acting like it does not exist though makes you sound either sheltered or defensive though. I think he should have been more careful while they are supposedly trying to attract minority voters. How exactly did that offend your sensibilities? Boehner is not a bad guy, just an old partisan but if memory serves he has a history of insensitive gaffs, and no not the race baiting types but what always seemed to me to be mistakes. I will say though that any Southern Strategy type ad for any candidate that I see is an instant deal breaker for my vote. I was raised in the 70's/80's and saw them as racist ads at the time, now that I am old enough to vote I will use my vote to ensure that strategies like it are not condoned and not forgotten. Oh yea and I am neon white just in case you think I am being hyper sensitive because of a personal trauma. My only trauma was reading Nixon and Lee Atwater's campaigning habits.
  • CStanley
    I guess the disconnect here, Kathy, is that even when I disagree with people who argue from the left (as in what we're discussing here, the left's opposition to Bush) I don't consider their reasons for opposing a conservative to be 'invalid'. I think it's important to give people their say, and sometimes when you take the time to listen you agree more than you think you will.

    So no, I don't "realize that those 'very valid reasons'" I referred to are only 'very valid' to myself and the people who share my opinion, and I don't think that the opinions of people on the left are only valid to them. I can acknowledge that people who have valid concerns should be heard, and then I can consider their points and decide if I agree with some or all of them. Most often, of course, I end up disagreeing with a lot but sometimes I agree with some (the Bush example concerning civil liberties is a good example- I think they went too far in some instances but not to the degree that you feel they did.)
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    CSTanley-Akk sorry then I thought I had read a message from you saying Bush was not so extreme early on but of course he was. The deficit is a legit discussion and complaint but the debate is about how to fix it and I tend to side with the current admin's policies instead of the Repubs favored policies which makes it more a matter of opinion than extremity. Also sorry if the Southern Strategy message was a little heated its a topic I get very bent out of shape about but again I think he mis-spoke but I also note that the people old enough to get his reference are the Repub's base so I could be wrong. Either way though I was more saying that he should have been more careful but blaming the left for "mis-quoting" him is akin to the left whining when the right complained about their hunger to take away the peoples guns. Dont whine, fix the problem.
  • Kathy, does this seem at all similar to you? I wrote it in the context of guns at the town halls, as it happens.
    "Ahhh... August. The hot, steamy, heart of summer -- that time of year when violent crime goes up as fuses grow short. Truly, it's a difficult time for heated debate -- and the town halls that have been going on around the country this month have, if nothing else, been heated."

    What Boehner initially said on July 30th was " they’re likely to have a very, very hot summer.” His site (he?) re-emphasized his initial prediction that Dems were likely to have a difficult August with a second release on his site after the initial heated town halls. In context, Kathy, I conclude that he meant it exactly the way I did. And I wasn't talking about weather, either.

    Also: "As far as "playing the race card," Polimom, that particular activity has a very, very long history in this country, but it's only when it's done in reverse (pointing out racist language or behavior as opposed to speaking or behaving in a racist fashion) that many people will notice it."

    I call BS here, Kathy. It gets called out with great regularity on all sides.
  • kathykattenburg
    I definitely remember a lot of those. And number 48 directly affected ME.
  • kathykattenburg
    Obama's recent legislative agenda has been controversial, because Republicans have made it so. It's hard to see why his agenda would be controversial, though, because everything on it is what he campaigned on for the last two years.Contrast that with George W. Bush, who implemented that long agenda Davebo gave us, after running a campaign in which he told us repeatedly that he would be a uniter not a divider, and didn't drop so much as a hint that the primary requirement to head a cabinet-level agency in his administration would be implacable hostility toward the mission of that agency.
  • Swami_Binkinanda
    But Bush is responsible for mass murder. 100 detainees died in custody before they could even be tortured. 1.5 million died in Iraq and not all of them could be construed to be guilty of anything.

    The right wing crazies are so ideologically blinkered that they continue not only to do what they complain the other side is doing, they are planning to do things they will attribute to their ideological enemies in advance. I don't see how this isn't heading towards some kind of civil unrest with the caveat that fat, old, uneducated people can't sustain armed conflict for very long. This latest delusional reverie is only another escalation by an anti-constitutional minority rebelling against lawful authority and pushing for anarchy or fascism, just like the brownshirts of Germany, blackshirts of Italy, and silver shirts of the US of A.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    CS:

    "That the bills have nice sounding names doesn't prove a thing- even a lot of GOP bills that I disagree with would have pleasant, sometimes Orwellian, names so that listing them by title doesn't allow people to form an opinion one way or another on the content or effect of the bill."

    OK, let's then agree that the list of Bush's "achievements" also had nice sounding names...

    By the way, the link provided takes you to a place that gives a short description of the various bills.
  • Davebo
    Since Obama has not used his mandate to reverse a lot of the policies that you say "could not be justified under any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution


    Well, you've already informed us that he's been pretty busy in his first seven months so let's give him a little time shall we?
  • CStanley
    If Obama agreed with those who felt that Bush shredded the Constitution, wouldn't you think that reversing those policies would be priority #1, Davebo?
  • Davebo
    Surely we can all agree that if you believe that Obama telling school kids to stay in school and work hard is some type of indoctrination, you're really, really stupid. And that the greatest threat to your children's welfare is not a speech by Obama, but indeed, it's you.

    Right?
  • CStanley
    Yes, Dorian, that link to Nancy Pelosi's website also included short descriptions. Surely you aren't saying that Bush's nice sounding achievements would be given a balanced description on the website of a partisan Republican who was instrumental in helping him achieve those things?
  • CStanley
    Obama's recent legislative agenda has been controversial, because Republicans have made it so

    Too bad we can't all be reasonable and see things your way, Kathy!

    The fact is that nearly half the country didn't vote for Obama and a portion of those who did were either voting against the GOP or were hoping that Obama really was going to change the tone of debate. The people in those categories are the ones who are losing 'hope'.
  • CStanley
    I haven't seen anyone in this thread saying otherwise regarding a simple message by Obama to schoolkids about the importance of staying in school and working hard (some have pointed out that the DOE materials sought to do more than that, and there was some politicization there which was inappropriate.) I don't get your statement about parents being a threat to their children's welfare though.
  • "The people in those categories are the ones who are losing 'hope'."

    Yeah... but some of us are still trying to hang in there.

    :-)
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    I have a "suspicion" that this may get better but I could be way off. I think that the bill that the White House is putting together is the bill that he suggested during the debates when he said "if nothing else I will make sure they have the same coverage as congress". Which of course is a portal to multiple providers to choose from as I have read, but I could be wrong. I think this is what will happen if the debate over the public option vs trigger blows up. It would pass I think in large numbers and the moderates would swoon while still keeping the left calm with the knowledge that their ideas died a natural death. I also think his will either link to medi. or a trigger to keep them happy but I think he is about to throw the punch which seems to come with this version of the rope a dope strategy.
  • tidbits
    Lit3 - Actually, you had it right the first time. Those of us who proclaim some shade of moderation actually do believe we are morally and intellectually superior to the rest of the species. And for good reason. Our perceived moderation gives us near god-like powers of observation and analysis. :)

    Now, if you will excuse me, I have a modesty class to teach.
  • AustinRoth
    Oh dear god Rambi, are you braindead? There was no 'Bush is not my President'??

    Sorry, I have nothing that can convince the willfully stupid, and won't bother, except to point out a simple Google of 'Bush is not my President' results in 30,300,000 matches.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    AR:

    "Sorry, I have nothing that can convince the willfully stupid, and won't bother, except to point out a simple Google of 'Bush is not my President' results in 30,300,000 matches"

    I don't remember that one, AR. But I do remember all the controversy of when googling "failure" one was taken to Bush's White House web site, or something like that :) (Did I do the smile ok?)
    How is your daughter doing?

    Dorian






  • kathykattenburg
    ...surely you're not saying that he was calling on you and your cohorts to incite riots?

    LOL, Christine. I guess it's like a joke, even though it's no joke. Either you get it or you don't, and you clearly don't, and it just feels ridiculous to explain it, so forget it.
  • kathykattenburg
    I think it's important to give people their say, and sometimes when you take the time to listen you agree more than you think you will.

    For sure, but "giving people their say" does not imply -- or shouldn't imply -- rude, offensive, boorish, and even physically threatening behavior. And such behavior cannot be excused by saying that people are "upset" for "valid reasons" and that's how it comes out.

    So no, I don't "realize that those 'very valid reasons'" I referred to are only 'very valid' to myself and the people who share my opinion, and I don't think that the opinions of people on the left are only valid to them. I can acknowledge that people who have valid concerns should be heard, and then I can consider their points and decide if I agree with some or all of them.

    Okay, so then would I be correct in thinking that you would find the following statement:

    "And when it appears that the Bush administration's goals have been to ride the crest of Bush's post-9/11 popularity to push sweeping legislation through very quickly (and without any real public discussion or debate in Congress), there are very valid reasons for pushing back rather than reserving judgement on the current (Bush) administration and Congress."

    just as reasonable and just as fair -- even if you don't agree with it -- as the statement you wrote, repeated below?

    "And when it appears that the Dem leadership's goals have been to ride the crest of Obama's popularity to push sweeping legislation through very quickly (before 2010 can potentially bring a shift in power), there are very valid reasons for pushing back rather than reserving judgement on the current administration and Congress."
  • kathykattenburg
    Kathy, does this seem at all similar to you?

    No, it doesn't. And it isn't.

    If I said to you that Americans are having a long, dark night of the soul, would that seem at all similar in meaning to saying that it's September, nights are getting longer, and soon the cold will chill my soul right to the marrow?

    And I don't know what you mean by Boehner's "site" and what he said on it. The Twitter site does not belong to John Boehner; he just gets to register for a page on the site where he can post brief thoughts of 140 characters or less. And what he wrote on his Twitter page was "Dems' Long, Hot Summer: Americans Express Growing Opposition to Dems' Job-Killing Plans on Energy, Health Care." What is going to make it such a "long, hot summer" for the Dems? Well, those Americans out there at those meetings are getting *really* angry at those Dems who want to kill their jobs. I mean, VERY angry. Like, maybe so angry that screaming, disrupting, and throwing chairs just isn't enough to get the anger out. Know what I mean? It's going to be a long, hot summer for those Dems. We've seen those kinds of long, hot summers before, yes we have. Those Dems must be feeling a mite nervous just about now.
  • pacatrue
    I haven't read the entire comment trail here, but there were a couple comments asking why Republicans weren't pushing back against the more extreme parts of their constituency. I was just checking out a blog "the Next Right" that I think I'll be monitoring more for a bit. They've got one blogger who's spitting out the normal stuff (in fact it's a post about Obama and Chairman Mao because of Obama's Stay in School speech) but the posts by the normal editors of the blog, Patrick Ruffini and John Henke, are all very nicely done conservative posts. Henke's recent posts are about urging Republican leaders to distance themselves from the conspiracy theories. thenextright.com
  • Stubbylibrarian
    So I guess everyone here was locked up somewhere during the past 8 years with no access to the Internet or radio or television?

    So no one ever saw Code Pink try to throw fake blood on Condi Rice as she gave testimony, or camped outside Bush's Crawford ranch; no saw the marchers carrying posters of a big fist punching Sarah Palin's tooth out, captioned MILP - Mother I'd Like to Punch; no one saw the Sarah Palin and John McCain posters with fangs dripping blood; or the assassination porn movies, or the Snipers Wanted caption over Bush's face? Stone throwing protesters chanting "Bush is a terrorist" and trying to disrupt his motorcade in Portland? Innumerable protest signs featuring variations of "Kill Bush Bomb His F____ House", "I'm Here to Kill Bush Shoot Me?" etc. etc.? An artist doing a series of stamps depicting Bush's assassination?

    How about the posters from any peace protest - there were lots of them, I promise - at any time between 2002 and 2008?

    Does any of this ring any bells?

    No? Nothing?
  • kathykattenburg
    Hey. Too bad Republicans were hoping that Obama didn't mean exactly what he said during his two years of campaigning on strong health care reform. I certainly would consider them to be more reasonable than I do now, if they didn't apparently think that two years of campaigning on hcr that achieved universal coverage meant nothing.

    The fact is that nearly half the country didn't vote for Obama and a portion of those who did were either voting against the GOP or were hoping that Obama was going to change the tone of debate.

    Well, here are some thoughts, in no particular order:

    1. Obama has done headstands and turned himself inside out and into the shape of a pretzel trying to change "the tone of the debate." It's not Obama who has said NO! to every single item on Obama's agenda w/o any ideas of their own. It's not Obama who has sworn to vote against hcr even if the public option is taken out, and no matter what Obama does. It's not Obama who said that non-profit co-ops are a trojan horse for single-payer. It's not Obama who has welcomed the most vile individual in talk radio -- a man who, among many other achievements, said that Obama was Hitler and his admin was the Third Reich -- to be their putative leader. It's not Obama who has made up, out of whole cloth, the most outrageous lies about Democratic health care reform proposals. It's not the Dems who have set themselves up as the wrecking crew, with the job of tearing down whatever the Dems try to build with no interest in putting anything up of their own. Republicans are not interested in governance. That's not the Dems' fault.

    2. The fact is that in 2000, more than half the country voted for the candidate who did NOT occupy the Oval Office for the next eight years. If YOU feel that Obama isn't listening to the almost half of the electorate that didn't vote for Obama, etc., you can at least comfort yourself with the knowledge that Obama did win with a healthy majority of the popular vote and a HUGE majority of the electoral vote. Imagine how WE have felt for the last eight years. I am not exaggerating when I say that for much of the last eight years, I have wanted to slit my wrists thinking about who was in the White House. I thought the nightmare would never end. Although it sounds mean, Christine: Now you know how I, and millions of other Americans felt, for so very, very, very long.

    3. Oh, and a final thought: It's a shame that those voters who voted against the GOP did not get an acknowledgment from the GOP of how profoundly and royally they screwed up everything they touched. Republicans are in love with the idea of personal responsibility, but never the reality of it. It would be lovely if even one single Republican leader were to acknowledge how they messed up the economy, national security, and our country's standing in the world and displayed a little humility in the tone they took toward the new president who has been stuck trying to clean up their mess.
  • kathykattenburg
    Have to agree with AR on this one. I was one of the people who said "Bush is not my president," so I know we were out there.

    What bothers me more than the people now who say "Obama is not my president" is the parents who want to keep their children from having any contact at all with ideas, opinions, and values different from theirs.How are children going to become independent thinkers if they're being told what to think, and led to believe that the whole wide world thinks the same way?
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Actually a simple google of "Bush is not my president" in quotes as it must be to be meaningful to this discussion produces 50,100 hits. Too many, but not as insane as what AR posted.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Actually I commented on this multiple times. The difference as you yourself stated is that it began around 2002 which was in the run-up to the Iraq invasion. Up until that took place around 2003 he had a pretty smooth run though he pushed through a good deal of very partisan legislation. The question I and others continue to pose is what has Obama done to deserve such a reaction so quickly? Considering that most of the most extreme venom is coming from those that either believe the conspiracy theories or are spreading them it is a bit hard to believe that they are due to the same issues Bush had to deal with: removal of rights done for "our protection"(I have huge problems with this but I will save you the speech), a war created on trumped up intelligence, torture of prisoners that at the time was not only being denied but we were not even admitting to what has been well documented now, rounding up of all protestors into "free speech zones" with nice shiny metal fencing.
    Now on the other side we have a guy that has been in office around 9 months and is trying to pass healthcare which was part of the platform he ran on and people are showing up at his rallies with guns and calling him and anyone linked to him communist nazis(nazi is far right and communist is far left and they do not mix as the ideologies are opposites). So the question again since you obviously did not read the comment string is what are they so freaked out about? I have your answer, they are afraid of the projections fueled by right wing media(the other side was afraid of the projections of left wing blogs). Now would you like to make a point now that you are caught up?
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    For any keeping tallies.

    Bush Not My President receives 30,100,000 hits on a google search

    Obama Not My President receives 57,500,000

    So in 9 months, actually shy of 9 months Obama is receiving more hate(by around 27,000,000) than Bush did after 8 years. Anyone want to take back the equivalence they have been speaking of?
  • Stubbylibrarian
    Whatever the reasons for the anti-Bush protests, the fact remains that there were many, many, many people talking about killing him, calling for his assassination, making jokes about killing him, etc. None of them were ever arrested - nor do I think they should have been. Now suddenly Joe and others are worried about polarization and divisions and hateful rhetoric and wetting their pants over the prospect of some right wing loonies driving other right wing loonies to do violence. Yet they never seemed to be afraid of all that rhetorical violence driving anyone to actual violence during the Bush years.

    Why not?

    I think there is indeed a lot of projection going on here.

    And BTW - I too had huge problems with Bush's assault on civil liberties and his relentless expansion of Presidential powers. None of which Obama has done anything to remedy or curtail and, indeed, has only expanded (FISA, "post-acquittal" imprisonment, presidential signing statements, and I know that you know that Gitmo will not be closed a year from now, or a year after that). The Democrats objected to the imperial presidency only until a Democrat became President.
  • kathykattenburg
    I have no reason to think that he [Boehner] was being stupid or overly provocative in making a prediction that the Dems were going to face heat from their constituents during the August recess.

    But that is exactly what he did say. That was the clear and plain meaning of his tweet. Only he didn't say "face heat." That would not have packed the punch he obviously wanted. He said that this was the Dems' "long, hot summer." He was not talking about the weather.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    First, all of this was after he had actually DONE SOMETHING, not how he was treated immediately. The supposedly "liberal media" oddly treated him a whole lot nicer than they have Obama, or even Clinton for that matter. They were kind enough to not bring up any bad news until 6 months before the election and then they did not find new info they just finally reported what had been all over the web since the Iraq invasion and before.
    The concern is due to the people carrying guns to political rallies which of course would not be an issue if he used free speech zones like Bush did but unlike you I actually see that our current president seems to have some respect for the constitution. I of course would like him to go further but seeing as how he has already done more on my oh so special if only I could get a president that would talk this way or do this thing list that I am giving him some time on the rest. You have to understand the first president I could have voted for was H.W. Bush so the current guy has a whole lot of rope to hang himself with because we are grading on a curve. Why you ask? Because if you do not grade on a curve we have not had a good president with any morals since the 1950's or before and that is incredibly sad and I refuse to accept it. Every president is just worse than the last, the good news is that if that holds true we will not even have a country in a few years but at least no one will tell me that cutting taxes would fix it all.
  • Dr J
    "What has Obama done to deserve such a reaction so quickly?"

    Failed to sell his agenda to the public. Mr. Bush had it much easier, since 9/11 handed him not only a crisis but broad public support for hawkish policies.
  • AustinRoth
    Here you go Jim. Apparently Google is too complicated for you to use properly:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=Bush+is+not+my+P...

    And as using Google properly IS too hard for you, here is a cut and paste from the result screen:

    Results 1 - 10 of about 30,300,000 for Bush is not my President. (0.22 seconds)
  • AustinRoth
    Kathy -

    Thanks for admitting the truth. But neither side should say it, and I haven't commented on the actual fact of Obama wanting to speak to schoolchildren, and the reaction against it.

    The speaking itself is admirable, and I fail to see why the commotion. The original lesson plans for teachers was a little slanted, but not even this 'I believe that Obama uses socialist governing techniques' person thinks the scale of the reaction is warranted.

    To paraphrase one of the great American philosophers, 'sometimes a speech to children is just a speech'.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Actually by then some of his agenda had already been passed. Again with little or no venom and no one was calling for his head. That had to wait until 2003, when he had actually screwed something up. People are saying that the calls for Bush's head on a platter was for the full 8 years, mostly so they can make it ok that they are already doing it to Obama in my opinion. That is not how it went down though and re-writing history will not make it ok. You are right though he had the shield of 911 for much of it and I would argue a conservative media that is socially liberal to ignore and not report anything like they do when a Dem is in office. Of course during the Bush years few major media figures nor political leaders jumped on the crazy train and those that did are now memories career wise(think Rosie Odonnel), for some reason we are ignoring that the voices that the left is taking issue with are those coming from elected leaders and major media figures.
  • Stubbylibrarian
    I can't imagine the mental gymnastics it would take to convince yourself that the press ever, at any time, treated Obama worse than it treated Bush. It kinda boggles the mind but, like the man said, you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

    Or maybe it's just youth. I believed a hell of a lot of silly things at your age myself.
  • kathykattenburg
    Well, AR, thanks for the sanity. It's a relief from the general tenor of this discussion.

    By the way, totally OFF-TOPIC, but I'm thinking of getting another dog. A small dog, preferably a mini-doxie. I just have to convince my daughter to feel okay about it, because she made me promise I would not get another dog while I have these two cats because she doesn't want them to be upset (esp. one of them, who is extremely alpha).
  • AustinRoth
    Dorian -

    I guess you missed the update I gave the other day (here is a link to the original update), and there is another now.

    She has received her orders, and will be home on September 10th.

    YEAH!!!

    Thanks so much for inquiring.
  • AustinRoth
    My take is if you want a dog, get a dog. It is your happiness you are aiming for. Animals almost always quickly adjust to each other in a loving home environment.

    I have a simple technique that has worked every time for me. Don't force it, and don't get involved, even when they chase, hiss, and even fight a little. They are establishing their ground rules for each other, and always seem to figure out for themselves within a week or two.

    Let us know what you decide (and what you end up getting, because it sounds to me like you HAVE decided!)

    :)
  • Dr J
    "No one was calling for his head. That had to wait until 2003, when he had actually screwed something up."

    And no one was calling for Mr. Obama's head after a very questionable stimulus package.

    He is now in trouble for selling the Democratic health care reform as a way to control runaway costs, exactly like Mr. Bush got in trouble selling the Iraq war as a way to control dangerous weapons. The promised cost savings have eluded the inspectors as completely as Saddam's anthrax, and people are now feeling uncomfortable and even swindled with a "reform" package that just buys more of the same runaway costs that got us into this mess.

    What I liked about Mr. Obama when I voted for him, and what I still believe in, is his ability to learn and adapt. I think it was a big mistake to delegate implementation of his post-partisan vision to Nancy Pelosi on some of these huge measures. I'm interested to see what strategic shifts 2010 will bring.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    First stop listening to opinion news.
    Second watch the coverage from day one not from the election day one(the media picks their favored person and that person always wins, it was true from Reagan on and continues to be true. This may go back further but I have no clue.)
    Third when a scandal or issue starts on the fringe does the media listen and investigate?
    From the last twenty years of paying attention I have found that a republican president gets the benefit of the doubt until right before an election and the Dem gets investigated just after the election
    This could be due to a media that is overcompensating(which would still mean a right leaning bias)
    This could be due to a media that is socially liberal enough to scare people but are economically conservative trying to "even the playing field" a bit
    This could be due to all Dems being evil and all Repubs being saints but I have my doubts about that.
    I missed out on the 70's, all that lived through it see commies everywhere but they are missing from my experience. My media has always looked liberal but they do love those tax cuts and media consolidation not to mention those fun little Repub wars that helps out the media companies military industrial complex contracts. I think the media was liberal pre-80's, but that changed slowly with the ad revenue and media consolidation.
    So for scandal investigations we have
    Reagan-Iran Contra (its okay he doesnt remember)
    Bush Sr-No new taxes pledge hit him just before the election
    Clinton-Flowers/White Water/Lewinsky/Pardons (I actually do not remember a time when the media was not investigating him on something and they, like the GOP always came up empty or nearly so(thinking of Lewinsky). THis could be part of my problem constant investigations under Clinton made me think it was the norm so when no oversight nor journalism was done under Bush to me it looks like playing favorites especially considering the guy did have a lot to investigate.
    Bush Jr.-Torture/fraudulent evidence for war in Iraq/Bungled 911/close personal ties to the family of the leader of the group that attacked us(sorry if this was Obama Fox would be nuclear by now)/Meyer's and Harriet Meyer's was the only thing the media would touch until right before the election AND they still held the warrentless wiretapping stories until after the 2004 election
    Obama-Health care/birth cert/anti Obama protesters/Shorts gate/the Cheney fiasco...I am sure there is more and I just have tried to forget.
    I do not listen to talk radio nor do I watch opinion journalism so I may have missed the "liberal" in the media but I think more than anything people that lived through the 70's really think the media is now how it once was and it is a much more classically corporate marketing entity now, news included.
  • AustinRoth
    I do not listen to talk radio nor do I watch opinion journalism

    Too busy creating tin-foil hats?
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Sorry, AR, but in fact the shoe is on the other foot. If we are going to discuss who does and does not understand the use of Google you lose. As I pointed out, for the search term concerning Bush and those who did not view him as their president to have meaning the phrase must be enclosed in quotes to make it a phrase search. If you want to exchange methodologies here is how the term I used appears in a link:
    http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rl...

    If my search term is entered in Google and then the Advanced search option is clicked it shows you that my term appears in the box labeled this exact wording or phrase:. Your search term turns into one in the box labeled all these words:. In terms of search results it makes a world of difference. Not so sorry to ruin your snark.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Sadly I missed the Fox News seminar.
  • CStanley
    Kathy, in reply to this comment and the last one that you directed toward me, I can only say that you aren't correctly understanding my views on the politics and the reactions that have resulted from actions of this president and the last one.

    I know that Bush did not get a majority of the popular vote. In that light, it's perfectly understandable that the people who did not vote for him took issue with a number of his policies right from the start, such as the list that Davebo gave. However, in overall scope, those were not transformative policies. At most, I'd grant him (her?) that a number of the complaints involve environmental policies and represented an incremental erosion of previous pro-environmental policies. Still though, in that first year, we weren't seeing an overall lurch in policy.

    After 9/11, as Dr. J aptly points out, there was a general feeling of unity and goodwill which allowed Bush to implement some sweeping changes, with a compliant Congress. I've said before here at TMV (probably before you were around) that I think the unity feeling was a mirage- I think that most people did 'feel' unified but as soon as it came down to crafting legislation in response to the terrorist attacks, people's divisions quickly became apparent again. That's because our 'partisanship' isn't just based on team mentality and tribalism, but also is rooted in actual philosophical differences.

    In that sense, the backlash against Bush is completely understandable, and if he'd wanted to avoid it he'd have had to build consensus for the new security measures based on a more thorough debate and not passing things through quickly before the 'unity' feel died down.

    I see Obama now acting similarly. The economic crisis starting last year at this time, coupled with his personal popularity, are being used as the selling points for sweeping legislative changes- again, instead of taking the harder route of really convincing opponents of how this legislation is the best option to deal with a problem. And that's part of the problem that some independents and moderates have with him now- I think they believed that a better legislative package would come from a process with a pragmatic Obama at the helm.

    So with Bush after the 9/11 unity faded, we saw the same thing that we're now seeing with Obama. Then, it was the >50% who didn't vote for him who became polarized against his policies, and now, it's the <50% plus some additional people who did vote for Obama but expected something different. (As a side note, I certainly don't understand why those people expected different- after he was elected I hoped that he wouldn't be as liberal and as divisive as I believed he'd be, but I definitely didn't think the odds were in favor of that outcome.)

    As for the part about not listening to rude, boorish, or physically threatening people, I pretty much agree but just as conservatives previously felt that way about GWB's opponents, you (and many other people) are similarly painting Obama's opponents with that broad brush. And the reason I keep harping on this is because in hindsight, I realized that I was ignoring some legitimate complaints with GWB's policies when I ignored all of the rude, boorish, and physically threatening people on the left who were making those complaints.

    Maybe you could take a cue from Ezra Klein, who explains the real reasons that the president/Congressional healthcare reform plans are floundering, instead of blaming it on the conservative opposition.
  • CStanley
    Right, that is exactly what he DID say, that the Dems were going to take heat from their constituents. Taking heat means listening to people who aren't happy with you, and who may express themselves with anger, which is exactly what has happened. It's a large leap from that to the Watts riots, and even the most extreme townhalls this summer haven't reached those levels of disorder and violence (nor was there anything in Boehner's statement to suggest that he wanted that to happen.)

    And I still maintain your explanation made no sense. You agreed that you were characterizing his statement as a dog whistle, and then explained that people like yourself were the only ones who would understand the context to 'hear' the whistle. But dog whistles are comments that are meant to be understood by some people but not heard by others- so it makes no sense for someone to purposely make a statement that is not understood by the people that would need to understand it, in order for this to have been a call to violent action by opponents of HR 3200.
  • Stubbylibrarian
    Not to belabor the long, hot summer thing - b/c if you need to believe that it was some crypto-call to violence, nothing will disabuse you of the notion - but there were at least two movies with the title The Long, Hot Summer, and if you Google the phrase - in quotation marks, of course - you get pages and pages of hits related to weather, sports, summer activities for children, and lots of other things unrelated to riots.

    It's not a dog whistle, it's not a call to arms, it's not a reminder of racial discord. It's an overused cliche.
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    AR:

    Thanks. I did read your great news about five days ago and I believe I commented then. I just wanted to know if there had been any more developments since then.

    Dorian
  • Don Quijote
    The fact is that nearly half the country didn't vote for Obama and a portion of those who did were either voting against the GOP or were hoping that Obama really was going to change the tone of debate.


    The fact is that over half the country didn't vote for Bush.
  • kathykattenburg
    I see Obama now acting similarly. The economic crisis starting last year at this time, coupled with his personal popularity, are being used as the selling points for sweeping legislative changes- again, instead of taking the harder route of really convincing opponents of how this legislation is the best option to deal with a problem.

    Except that he is not acting similarly. Pres. Bush implemented sweeping legislative changes affecting civil liberties and other constitutional protections as the result of a catastrophic event that happened eight months after he took office. He had not campaigned on making these kinds of changes. He had not proposed or discussed or called for rewriting (in effect) whole sections of the Constitution. We now know (and have known for some time) that a group of individuals within the Bush admin who had served together in several Republican administrations -- Dick Cheney most notable among them -- had wanted to implement these changes for many, many years, and 9/11 gave them the cover to do so.

    That is why Democrats, liberals, and other supporters of the Bill of Rights were so angry with Bush's sweeping legislative changes. There is simply no legitimate or logical comparison to be made between that, and Pres. Obama's health care reform agenda. As I've written here innumerable times (or it feels like it!), Barack Obama actively, explicitly, and openly campaigned on the health care reform issue. That was one of the centerpiece issues of his entire run for the presidency. The argument that there was no, or not enough, discussion, is totally w/o merit. Obviously, that is not to say that some people (the entire Republican membership of Congress?) do not agree with Obama's concept of health care reform. These are people who will never agree, because they are fundamentally opposed to any health care reform that actually changes the status quo in any meaningful way. That's not hyperbole; it's truth. And if that's the case, then fine -- Republicans are doing their job, being the opposition party. The opposition party's job is to oppose. They're doing that. But don't come and tell us lies about how Obama is trying to ram through health care reform with no discussion, because that's just purely the stuff you find walking near the cow pasture.
  • kathykattenburg
    I see Obama now acting similarly. The economic crisis starting last year at this time, coupled with his personal popularity, are being used as the selling points for sweeping legislative changes- again, instead of taking the harder route of really convincing opponents of how this legislation is the best option to deal with a problem.

    Except that he is not acting similarly. Pres. Bush implemented sweeping legislative changes affecting civil liberties and other constitutional protections as the result of a catastrophic event that happened eight months after he took office. He had not campaigned on making these kinds of changes. He had not proposed or discussed or called for rewriting (in effect) whole sections of the Constitution. We now know (and have known for some time) that a group of individuals within the Bush admin who had served together in several Republican administrations -- Dick Cheney most notable among them -- had wanted to implement these changes for many, many years, and 9/11 gave them the cover to do so.

    That is why Democrats, liberals, and other supporters of the Bill of Rights were so angry with Bush's sweeping legislative changes. There is simply no legitimate or logical comparison to be made between that, and Pres. Obama's health care reform agenda. As I've written here innumerable times (or it feels like it!), Barack Obama actively, explicitly, and openly campaigned on the health care reform issue. That was one of the centerpiece issues of his entire run for the presidency. The argument that there was no, or not enough, discussion, is totally w/o merit. Obviously, that is not to say that some people (the entire Republican membership of Congress?) do not agree with Obama's concept of health care reform. These are people who will never agree, because they are fundamentally opposed to any health care reform that actually changes the status quo in any meaningful way. That's not hyperbole; it's truth. And if that's the case, then fine -- Republicans are doing their job, being the opposition party. The opposition party's job is to oppose. They're doing that. But don't come and tell us that Obama is trying to ram through health care reform with no discussion, because that's just purely the stuff you find walking near the cow pasture.

    ADDED:

    As for Ezra Klein, if you can get behind this:
    The problem, in the end, is simple enough: The easy revenue options -- a small tax on the rich, or cuts in waste and abuse -- don't raise enough money. The hard revenue options don't have any support. And the solutions that would save you money are ruled too radical.

    That, at least, is how it's been framed to me. But let's remember that this is also a simple question of will, and of priorities. Congress could tie the tax on the rich to the rise in health-care spending, thus creating more political pressure to control costs. It could convert the employer tax exemption to a progressive standard deduction, which would mean a tax cut for the majority of Americans and would easily fund the system. The problem is not insufficient money, or the relative growth in costs, or the savings. The problem is insufficient political will.

    then it seems we agree more than either one of us thought we did.
  • Dr J
    "Barack Obama actively, explicitly, and openly campaigned on the health care reform issue."

    He did indeed. And he promised very sensible things like reducing costs. He's not delivering.
  • kathykattenburg
    LOL, Dr_J. The best way to control costs is single-payer. Obama took that option off the table before Congress even started working on hcr legislation, because he was trying to please Republicans. So the next best cost-cutter is the public option, but Republicans have rejected that, too. Nonprofit co-ops are a third option that has a lot of question marks as to how well it would work, but that is a moot point, because the Republicans have rejected the co-op option as well.
  • Dr J
    "The best way to control costs is single-payer."

    That makes no sense in theory and is repeatedly disproved in practice. Medicare isn't controlling costs (and doesn't even appear to be trying). European health care costs are rising just as steadily as ours.

    The best way to control costs is the way we do it in every other industry: competition.
  • kathykattenburg
    I don't know what to say. Your statement is straightforwardly false. There's just no rational argument to be made that U.S.-style free market health care delivery is better at controlling costs than single-payer. The U.S. spends hugely, massively more per person for health care than any of the countries that have universal coverage, even the ones that are not 100 percent single-payer. European health care costs rising just as steadily as ours, even if it's true, is not relevant to which system is best at controlling costs overall. The U.S. system fails to deliver health care to tens of millions of its citizens, and it still costs more per person than any other country with universal coverage. Even the least effective universal coverage system in the world delivers basic preventive health care to all its citizens at a lower per capita cost (much lower) than the U.S. does.

    So I don't know what I can say to you, Dr J. I don't think more links are going to help.
  • Dr J
    "Your statement is straightforwardly false. There's just no rational argument to be made that U.S.-style free market health care delivery is better at controlling costs than single-payer."

    Which was not quite my statement. I said *if* we had a truly competitive system, it would be better at controlling costs than single-payer. Today our system is scoring the same zero as everyone else.

    "European health care costs rising just as steadily as ours, even if it's true, is not relevant to which system is best at controlling costs overall."

    Not relevant? Rising costs are the entire issue, Kathy. This the whole reason we have millions of uninsured: the rising tide of costs has been putting more and more people underwater.

    What's not relevant is that the water level is a bit lower in Europe today. The fact is we're wealthier than Europeans, so we spend more on many things. When it comes to health care we have bigger problems and higher expectations, for example about how much we're entitled to and our freedom to sue if we don't like it. Even if we could adopt Sweden's system wholesale and it worked as well for us as it does for them, we would buy ourselves only a few years before we'd be as deep underwater as we are today.

    We need serious structural reform.
  • kathykattenburg
    Yes, rising costs are the entire issue, Dr J, and given the fact that rising costs are the issue, one would think a system that delivered universal health care coverage at one-third the cost per person of another system would be the preferable one -- particularly since the overall cost of health care is rising everywhere. But as I like to say sometimes, YMMV.

    We need serious structural reform.

    Oh, goody. Five words out of 222 I can agree with.
  • Dr J
    "One would think a system that delivered universal health care coverage at one-third the cost per person of another system would be the preferable one."

    One third?? You're a wild spendthrift, Kathy. Cuba spends per capita less than 1/20th what we do and enjoys comparable life expectancy and other broad measures of health.

    If those are the only things that matter, Cuba is a huge success story, testimony to the cost-shriveling power of socialized medicine. What's going wrong in Europe that makes it so much more expensive there?
  • kathykattenburg
    After reading this three times, the only reply I can come up with is "Huh"?
  • Dr J
    Seems like a simple question. Health care outcomes are similar in Cuba and Europe. Why is it more expensive in Europe?
  • kathykattenburg
    Ummm, because Cuba equals unbearable year-round heat and more strange insects than you thought existed?
  • Dr J
    You're saying maybe strange insects have driven down the cost of their health care? Then perhaps you should be calling for reform based around importing Cuba's insects than importing Europe's payment schemes, since the former seems to work so much better.
  • AustinRoth
    Dorian -

    Yes, I went back and realized you did. I wasn't sure at the moment as I received a lot of very nice comments, yours included, and a simple check on my part would have found yours.

    Thanks again, and this Thursday is going to be a wonderful day at the Roth household.

    btw - on an interesting side note, Vicki found out that while they are flying her back to Texas, they will not provide her transport to the airport! She is on her own for that.
  • kathykattenburg
    You asked why Europe is more expensive than Cuba. I assumed you were asking me why Europe is considered a more desirable place to live than Cuba is (since I couldn't, and still can't, figure out any other point behind the question) -- hence my answer. Cuba: unbearable heat and scary insects. Europe: Normal, civilized four-season weather and just the insects I'm used to (and grudgingly accept the existence of).
  • kathykattenburg
    AR, I just saw this and obviusly it refers to some personal good news, but I don't know what it is. You must have posted a comment that I didn't see. Anyway, I don't want you to think I'm ignoring the good news, whatever it is. I just hadn't heard about it.

    Does it have something to do with your daughter? Is she coming home?
  • Dr J
    I meant to ask why is health care more expensive in Europe than in Cuba, and why you're advocating that we adopt the European model rather than the Cuban one?
  • kathykattenburg
    Thank you for the clarification. With the caveat that I would have to do the research to answer your question more substantively (I don't take your statements about comparative health outcomes and costs between Europe and Cuba on faith, for example), my first thought would be that the comparison is less relevant for health care reform in the United States than is the fact that Europeans still pay much less for health care than Americans do, even if it's correct that Cubans pay less for health care and have European-style outcomes (which I doubt, frankly).

    I'm still not sure if this answers your question, but I'm trying.
  • Dr J
    The World Health Organization's site has a searchable database of all manner of figures on health care availability, spending, outcomes and so on, by country and by year. That made me an instant expert on Cuba :-) and can do the same for you.

    I'm merely reapplying the same reasoning I keep hearing from you and others: Health care in Europe costs less than America for outcomes that are at least as good, therefore there's no rational argument for not adopting their system. By those standards, Cuba looks not only a little better than Europe but a lot better. So why shouldn't we adopt their system wholesale, whatever it is?
  • kathykattenburg
    Health care in Europe costs less than America for outcomes that are at least as good, therefore there's no rational argument for not adopting their system. By those standards, Cuba looks not only a little better than Europe but a lot better. So why shouldn't we adopt their system wholesale, whatever it is?

    Their health care system looks better, not their political system. I really and truly am not understanding your logic here, Dr J, and even though I could not disagree more with your worldview, I have never understood you to be silly, or a crackpot.
  • AustinRoth
    Kathy -

    Yes, she is coming home Thursday!!

    YEAH!!

    And If you didn't catch the initial update from a few days ago (the one I referenced to Dorian) here it is - Victoria update.

    BTW - when does your new doggie come home?

    ;)
  • kathykattenburg
    AR,

    Read the update, I definitely had not seen that before. And it's such great news. If I'm remembering correctly, this is much more and faster progress than you had dared to hope for initially. I'm very happy for all of you.

    As for doggie, it'll be a while, still. I'm being extremely careful about my choice this time, because I made some hasty, heart-overrules-head decisions in the past. Of course, I was on the rebound then, but still, I want to be cautious and realistic about what dog qualities and characteristics will fit my lifestyle and physical limitations.

    I talked to Maggie (my daughter) about it, she is still leery, but here is one funny comment she made: "Mommy, what are you going to do when it's icy outside? You know how much trouble you have keeping your balance on the ice even w/o a dog!"

    The sad part is, she's right. :-(

    I just have to find a small dog, gentle, walks well on leash, and gets along with cats. It is surprisingly hard to find all of those in one dog. But here is a leading candidate:

    http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi...
  • kathykattenburg
    I have now read the initial update, and that is great news, AR. I'm sure your whole family must be over the moon.

    As for doggie, I don't have one yet, but here is a leading candidate:

    http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi...
  • Dr J
    Kathy, we're talking about health care systems, not political systems. I've seen you advocate importing European health care, but I haven't seen you suggest we drag their parliamentary governments (or monarchies) along too. We can copy the health care and leave the politics.

    And in terms of health care systems, Cuba's has much to recommend it. Government pays 90.7% of all health care costs, more than any country in Europe (though Luxembourg at 90.6% is a close second). The mortality rate due to cancer is 129 per 100,000 people, compared to 134 in the US, 141 in Germany, 143 in Spain. Life expectancy at birth is 68, only 7% behind Sweden. Their infant mortality rate is the same as the UK's. They have 59 doctors per 10,000 people, more than twice the US's 26. Yet they spend only 7.1% of GDP on health care, less than any western European country and only half as much as the US.

    Cuba's system isn't perfect, but the outcome numbers look pretty good, and the cost numbers look phenomenal. These numbers say it's a great position for us to build from--especially since we have so many more resources to apply to the job.

    Yet whereas you regard importing a European system based on cost and outcome numbers to be the only rational choice, importing the Cuban one based on the same analysis is silly and crackpot? There's a stark contradiction here. What's making you balk at the Cuban option?
  • kathykattenburg
    Dr J,

    I have no inclination or disinclination for the Cuban system. I have not studied the Cuban system, know nothing about the Cuban system, and never thought about the Cuban system. I'm not balking at it, I'm not jumping at it. What I know is that you are trying to play some kind of game with me here about Cuba's health care system or political system or social system or economic system or SOMETHING. And I still don't know exactly what it is, but I'm getting tired of it. Stop trying to maneuver me and manipulate me into giving you some answer that you have in mind which you can then use to prove whatever point it is that you have in mind, if indeed you do have one.

    I don't have the patience of a saint, Dr J, and you are starting to SERIOUSLY annoy me. As my father used to say, piss.or.get.off.the.pot.If you have something to say, SAY.IT.
  • Dr J
    Kathy, you're not suggesting my desire to hire Fidel and Raul to overhaul our health care system is less than sincere, are you?

    You are right, of course, but my rhetorical hope is to establish some common ground between us.

    It's perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily--it's a third-world country with 1/300th of our GDP, a completely different culture, and a totalitarian government that engineers its own weird reality. Though it musters some surprisingly good health outcomes, you're right that importing their system is a crackpot idea. Behind each of those nice-sounding stats probably lurks 10 drawbacks we don't know about. And we are so different from Cuba in so many ways that it's virtually guaranteed that programs that work in Cuba wouldn't scale up to our giant, multicultural, non-totalitarian country.

    What I've been hoping you'll say is "maybe there's more to it than just these outcome and cost stats" because that would establish our common ground. I balk at importing Europe's health care system on the basis of those stats, for similar reasons. Quick summaries of outcome statistics don't do justice to what I'm sure is a complex reality, and to be frank I haven't seen any single-payer champions go much deeper than "Europe is better! At half the cost!" European countries are much smaller than ours--more comparable to one of our states. They're poorer, and they're more culturally homogeneous. Though governments don't tend to be totalitarian, citizens have a different history and different relationship with the government than we do.

    I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don't show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn't scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?
  • kathykattenburg
    iIt's perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily-

    Nice try, Dr J. I don't eye Cuba warily. I eye YOU warily. And clearly with good reason.

    I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don't show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn't scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?

    No. It sounds more honest -- a straightforward statement of your beliefs as opposed to trying to trap me into giving an answer when I don't know the question -- but it does not sound more rational.
  • Dr J
    Kathy, I've given you many straightforward statements of my beliefs, and it has generally been my experience that what you hear is not what I thought I said. I took a different approach this time, and I'm sorry if it left you feeling trapped.
  • kathykattenburg
    No problem. It's all part of the mix.
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