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Arizona Pastor Repeats Wish For Barack Obama’s Death

Posted by JOE GANDELMAN, Editor-In-Chief in Politics, Religion.
Aug 31st, 2009 | Comments

The toxic and putrid combination of early 21st century hate/demonization politics and the language of outright violence continues to escalate:

Parishioners leaving the Faithful Word Baptist Church in the East Valley Sunday carried not just their Bibles, but guns as well.

Pastor Steven Anderson said he and his congregation have received death threats after a controversial sermon earlier this month.

“Guns are a great deterrent,” said Anderson. “We haven’t had any violence because people know if they come down here swinging a baseball bat, we’re ready to protect ourselves.”

On August 16th, Anderson delivered a sermon titled “Why I Hate Barack Obama.”

In it, Anderson admitted he prays for the president’s death.

It is a position he reiterated Sunday.

“If you want to know how I’d like to see Obama die, I’d like him to die of natural causes,” said Anderson. “I don’t want him to be a martyr, we don’t need another holiday. I’d like to see him die, like Ted Kennedy, of brain cancer.”

In emails, I have readers telling me “Well, this is just one nut.” Yes, but our politics increasingly resembles in the degree of demonization and outright hatred a bunch of clear nuts surrounded by a bunch of enabled media nutlets. And the Pastor’s defenders will surely argue: “It all depends on whether a nut is a nut.” But word games don’t negate what is now going, and can be increasingly seen in a large number of news cycles:

Even a jar of Kosher pickles sitting on the shelf at Albertson’s supermarket on University Avenue in San Diego can sense where this escalation of hate/violence/death rhetoric may be heading – and where it is likely to lead.

And lest you think that all Christians or religious people are merely looking the other way — think again because that is not the case. There are some, such as the Christian Broadcasting Network’s David Brody who are aghast. Brody offers some more details about the original sermon and a You Tube…and his reaction. Here’s some more from the sermon:

“I’m going to tell you something. I hate Barack Obama. You say, well, you just mean you don’t like what he stands for. No, I hate the person. Oh, you mean you just don’t like his policies. No, I hate him.”

“I am not going to pray for his good. I am going to pray that he dies and goes to hell.”

“What goes around comes around. You love violence. You hate that which is right. You love to harm others. You love to hurt or kill the unborn or the innocent or the righteous. He is saying, God is going to bring that upon your own head, because whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. ”

“Now, turn back to Psalm 58 and let me ask you this question. Why should Barack Obama melt like a snail? Why should Barack Obama die like the untimely birth of a woman? Why should his children be fatherless and his wife a widow, as we read in this passage? ”

“Well, I will tell you why. Because, since Barack Obama thinks it is OK to use a salty solution, right, to abort the unborn, because that’s how abortions are done, my friend, using salt — and I would like to see Barack Obama melt like a snail tonight.”

“If you think God is in control of this country, you’re insane. A madman is in control of this country.”

There are degrees of this theme with some of the more overtly inflammatory assertions and hopes left out now being broadcast as you read this post.

This post is being written at the Starbucks on The Grapevine, just down the hill, north of LA. I flipped through talk radio stations today as I made my way south from Oakland, CA to Bakersfield to LA (I am about to enter LA…you can see smoke on the horizon here ). I picked up words and phrases such as “Nazis…if you let them do what they’re trying to do…a Socialist..take this away from you…” — its framing the political scene in a your-country-and-your-way-of-life-is-at-stake way.

Brody says he posted Pastor’s entire tirade so people could read it all for themselves. (He also has the You Tube but go to the link for that. We’ll take a pass on posting that since TMV may have trouble washing the smell from our site). Brody then writes:

It should be noted that while there is an argument to be made against President Obama’s policies on abortion and other matters, there just is no place for this type of talk. Not from the pulpit, pews or anywhere else for that matter. For people skeptical of Evangelical Christians, I post this story so you fully understand that you SHOULD NOT lump Steve Anderson into the group of Bible believing Christians. His message is absolutely empty of God’s grace and mercy. God doesn’t want pastors or anybody for that matter to pray for someone’s death. God is looking to give people the free gift of eternal life and have people join him in His kingdom forever.

Indeed: isn’t it time for people of all religions or no religion to say “Enough?” We are not seeing a deescalation of the degree of toxicity in our polity. We’re seeing trending that indicates an escalation, seemingly at breakneck pace, where an even passionate or emotional discussion of hot-button ideas is being replaced by rage, paranoia, unadulterated hatred — and sooner or later someone on one side or other is going to get hurt. Or worse.

And then it will really be time for some heavy duty prayers…

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Frith_Ra

This kind of thing makes me seriously rethink the second amendment. Can we get an IQ test for gun ownership?

StockBoySF

Well.... first of all Pastor Steven Anderson may be some nut, but he's a pastor and pastors are seen as pillars of the community.

Some people may say he's just one nut, but with a congregation he carries more wieght than most nuts, except Rush Limbaugh.

He seems to hate Obama because of his abortion beliefs. Does this pastor also pray for the Clintons' deaths? And what about other politicians who have the same beliefs as Obama?

If this man had said similar things about Bush, Bush would have had him thrown in prison as a threat to national security.

redbus

If Pastor Anderson had said these things as a pastor of the denomination of which I am a part, he would have been yanked before he could preach another "sermon." There is absolutely no place for that kind of talk, period. Thanks, Joe, for bringing this to our attention.

archangel

geez. Well here's a long link, but it tells about Anderson's troubled background recently, (some are saying he's been dismissed already from one church in his short lifetime, others speculate he cant control himself and surveillance films show him at an airport being seemingly purposefully provocative with an armed officer there, demanding the officer who declined to answer Anderson's questions re weaponry is supposed to answer Anderson as 'you work for me.' Others speculate he is attempting to place himself in a purposely designed position to be taken down and thereby play victim so as to arrange a law suit against state and national. Here is an account of his sort of "Gatesian" moment with the border patrol.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://w...

tidbits

The right wing version of "Goddam America", if you consider this as a rejection of the electoral process that put Obama in office. Though this does go several degress beyond Rev. Wright. Even he didn't pray for anyone's death that I recall.

Joe, this sermon is clearly unacceptable, but it crosses my mind that, by giving ink (media time or internet exposure) to this man, we will only help fill his pews with the like-minded and, in so doing, increase the fury...and the threat. Will he become the next person who achieves a national following by spouting the outrageous?

There is, it seems to me, a conflict between the duty of the press to inform and the risk of empowering such people by spreading their hatred to a wider audience.

DLS

"There is, it seems to me, a conflict between the duty of the press to inform and the risk of empowering such people by spreading their hatred to a wider audience."

Not to mention magnifying it to mischaracterize the public opposition to the Dems currently, which smacks of the obvious desperation we've been seeing.

Just put this guy in the cage with Reverend Wright for ten rounds and be done with it.

tidbits

dr. e's link is very instructive on the motivation (notoriety), anger and confrontational approach of this individual. Add a congregation of "followers" and guns...yikes.

kathykattenburg

Tidbits,

THANK you for pointing out the politically incorrect truth. The uproar over Rev. Wright's comments was, at least in part, because of his blackness. Oh, and by the way, this is Kathy; I'm posting from the library once again because my mouse is deader than a doornail and there is no store that sells computer supplies or products within walking distance.

kathykattenburg

Okay, I thought my comment was going to say "Guest." I was wrong.

kathykattenburg

DLS, this is not about politics; it's about lethal hatred. It only takes one bullet to kill a person, DLS, and those bullets are not usually marked Republican or Democrat. It would be really, really, sweet if you would for once in your Democrats-hating life take individuals like this pastor seriously, instead of dismissing them or trivializing them. I'm certain you would not have done that with nuts threatening Pres. Bush's life..

Slamfu

How big is this guy's following? Maybe he's a crackpot and maybe he's got a 10,000 strong flock. Knowing the uber conservatives that lap up this kind of thing it could be a sizable group that listens to him. I used to thing Mike Savage and Rush were too far out there to be taken seriously and yet they have huge followings.

roro80

Oh, this pastor Anderson is a peach and a half. I first read about him in connection with his "kill all fags" sermon.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12591/arizo...

Just in case you think this clearly off-his-rocker pastor and his violent rhetoric isn't really going to have any effect, it should also be noted that one of the people who showed up packing at the Arizona Obama town halls was his parishoner. Ain't that quaint?

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12678/heatp...

DLS

"this is not about politics; it's about lethal hatred"

Unless you're truly impaired, I doubt even you believe that to be 100% the second thing, Kathy.

jchem

This is just flat out disgusting; I'm not sure how else to characterize it. I've never heard about this guy before but from the links that both Dr. E and roro80 posted, I would argue its either time to put this guy in the ward or the slammer, one or the other.

tidbits

DLS - This time I think you're wrong, and someone like Anderson could make you "dead" wrong. The crazy preaching to the unstable has had consistently horrible consequences. Do you remember Jonestown? We really cannot simply chalk this up to politics. We, all of us, have an obligation to speak out against hatred and inferences of violence against our elected leaders whether we agree with those leaders or not.

What will the excuse be when one of these unstable haters who follow the likes of this pastor goes beyond carrying a gun (see Roro80's link) and uses it in an assassination attempt.

Look, I'm no liberal...as either Kathy or Roro can tell you...but when you tell your congregation of followers that you pray for the President's death (even by natural causes), it isn't much of leap for one of the "faithful" to try to do something about it.

Policy disagreements do not require hate, and certainly don't require the preaching of hate from the pulpit.

DLS

Actually, if you have ever been to Arizona (one of the places I've lived is Phoenix), you'd find that (as in the South) while modernity has indeed arrived there, and you have liberal and even PC-faddish liberal as well as conservative politics there (the main newspaper didn't acquire the name "Arizona People's Republic" for nothing), you do have open carrying of firearms, aggressive, mindless behavior on the roads, and when I went there, militias and playing with explosives had made the news in recent years. (A friend of mine back in Seattle, after I moved there: "How 'bout them Vipers?")

Which leads to:

And, of course, as far as political far right wing stuff is concerned, don't forget Evan Mechem.

If you believe the Secret Service is poised to be as surprised as we all were on "9-11," think again.

HemmD

DLS

You demonstrate on a regular basis that your cynicism is only surpassed by you lack of general knowledge. If this is political in nature, you make it so, not Democrats, the Left, RINOs, nor the international communist conspiracy.

A pastor who prays for the death of another is a pastor of no Christian sect. As I recall the subject is religious hypocracy, not political back biting. Unless, of course, you wish to espouse the belief that all evil in the world is concentrated in one political party. I think I saw that in one of your last comments.

Keep to the point for a change.

ordinarysparrow

When did Hate become a Sacrament? . .

archangel

dear tidbits. I know what you mean about spilling ink on the glass screen over various personages who appear to solicit others for the attention, mistakenly proud they are being talked about, when in fact, in many cases, they are being roundly condemned.

This issue of how much ink to spill on certain subjects and persons, is one we discuss among ourselves as administrators of tmv, and we come to similar conclusions most of the time...

Speaking just for myself ... I think it is important to let people know that someone who seems--perhaps not well-- is afoot, and trying to drum violence toward others. For me personally, given that we grew up not realizing what hell people had planned for our immigrant /refuge communities, I tend toward, even though having to strap on some stones to do it, wanting to know above ground and on the freaking table what is going on, rather than people nefarious planning ill behind closed doors and in dark of night.

However, with situations like this one re Mr. Anderson (truly forgive me, I am pressed to call a person 'pastor' who doesnt appear to be centered in representing the essence of Christ's love, mercy and forgiveness... in my years on the psyche wards, we had hundreds of 'pastors' as well as a a lot of 'virgin marys,' more than one 'Abraham,' and a 'Gandhi' every now an d then... these caused by the poor person's particular dementia), as a journo, my take would be measured this way initially: if the public is better served by knowing versus Mr. A attributing all the attention as a compliment to his miseries flaunted... then likely the former would take precedence.

This measurement could change, depending. I think, in all, a journo has to try as best they can, weigh public interest-- and sometimes public protection-- and safety... against the seeming not-well mind-sweep of one individual.

I know that many of us with a pulse on various subcultures within the larger culture, just from basic or journalistic instincts over these many decades, are tense that someone may soon be hurt by any-someone who calls for the death of anyone...

I can assure unequivocally from years in the trenches, that unlit minds absolutely do hear unlit hearts and too often, go do the irreligious and deadly wrong... as they hear such call to do harm to another, not as overthetop rhetoric, but as literal summons.

I think many of us are praying and hoping, by keeping the issue of such reckless calls for violence, above ground where they can be seen, that people will remain alert and no harm will come. I pray for this, literally, daily.

Just my two cents worth... measuring the usefulness of each story can change in a moment, depending. I think the journo's intent has to be taken into account too. I havent a goal of making any article yellow. I'd say most of our journos here dont either. It's one of the reasons I try to stay. Most often, with our commenters and our writers, I think we are in reasoned and smart company. That's a rarity I cherish.

Thanks for letting me give a little window.

dr.e

ordinarysparrow

"There is no categorical 'harassment exception' to the First Amendment's free speech clause. There is of course no question that non-expressive, physically harassing conduct is entirely outside the ambit of the free speech clause. But there is also no question that the free speech clause protects a wide variety of speech that listeners may consider deeply offensive, including statements that impugn another's race or national origin or that denigrate religious beliefs." Supreme Court Justice Alito

Phew! I guess this guy is showing us the armpit of both the First and Second Amendments. . . .perhaps the only ones that need to sniff here are the Special Service that protect the President.. Often times it is ones like this and ones like Fred Phelps that bring others back to a more balanced place when they see how the Shadow can swallow some folks. . . . The Dark Angels are often powerful teachers in a really smelly sort of a way. Phew!

tidbits

dr.e - Thank you for taking the time to flesh out the conflict between reporting and inflating the presence of those like mr. anderson. I call your decision not to call him pastor, and raise you spelling his name in lower case. :)

Frankly, I agree with you that disclosure is often the best defense and is certainly a journalist's duty. My question wasn't meant to challenge Joe's judgment, and I certainly do not consider this piece to be yellow journalism, which to me involves playing fast and loose with facts or insinuating something untrue. My question was simply an honest query. Perhaps the better question would be how to expose the likes of this person without according him a national stage to propogate his hatred. And, maybe there is no way to do that, but it is a question I believe is worth asking.

CharlieScene

Really because last I heard Nicholson Baker wasn't in jail and he wrote a book about a character wanting to assinate Bush. And I have never heard Rush Limbaugh say he wants to kill Obama.

DLS

"...but when you tell your congregation of followers that you pray for the President's death (even by natural causes), it isn't much of leap for one of the "faithful" to try to do something about it."

I'm certain the Secret Service is onto this guy and his camp, and others not in the news, too.

And as I alluded to with other characters there in Arizona (including Mecham, for example, as well as examples I chose not to provide, like the murder of the Sikh after 9-11, another fact the "challenged" will say is something else I don't know about, I suppose), there's definitely an extremist element that does emerge from the hype the media engages in.

I was just putting this in the context of what we're seeing as the health care emotions rise currently.

[sigh]

StockBoySF

It does not matter how many people are in this pastor's congregation. His words are reported on the news and internet. People all over the nation can see them and for those who are looking for like-minded individuals who feel alienated, or those who do not necessarily like Obama but wouldn't go this far on their own, the words he utters are powerful and will sway people.

In my first comment I said something like Bush would have labelled this guy as a threat to national security. I was implying that Obama is in a rock and a hard place. If he starts arresting kooks like this everyone will claim that Obama is suppressing free speech. But by letting this nut spout his anger Obama is raising the danger level towards his well being.

I think the media should report incidences such as this. These are difficult times and we need a discussion. But I think more leaders, especially Republican leaders (since this nut case appeals to the Republicans), should come out and tell everyone that such language should not be tolerated.

I remember during the campaign how Obama calmed people down at rallies when they started booing McCain. I remember how Obama told everyone that families (referring to Palin's) were off limits. It was only when McCain and Palin were forced by the Secret Service to recoginze the violence in their audiences that they finally made half-hearted attempts to squelch it.

The reason the Republican Party doesn't have a REAL leader is that there is no real Republican leader out there who is willing to standup on the national stage and do what's right. The GOP is fractured at the moment and Republicans are happy to implicity condone such attacks if they think it helps their party, while at the same time they can wash their hands of any responsibility because they did not actually "say" anything.

McCain at one point in time carried the "honorable" Republican mantle. But during last year's campaign he abdicated it and was a very different candidate than he was eight years earlier. It would really really help the nation if McCain the fine Arizona Republican and Obama's former opponent, stood up in a national speech and denounced the "death panel" comments, the "Obama is an African, commie socialist Nazi" comments, etc. When I say "national speech" I mean a widely-advertised speech that McCain gives. Not just a comment as a sound bite on some 15 second interview.

tidbits

"The Dark Angels are often powerful teachers in a really smelly sort of a way."

Nicely put, Sparrow.

P.S. You can keep the horse.

Eddy

D. E.Rodriguez

DLS:

Since you probably will not be going back to my post on Senator Kennedy's burial at Arlington National Cemetery, where you posted the following comment:

"We could simply address the basics.

Worm Food

ARLINGTON, VA -- The third and final course of Kennedy Brothers worm food has been served."

and I see you are charming this thread, let me tell you right here how distasteful and pathetic I found your comment to be.

I have flaged it, but don't know if the stain it has already made, can ever be erased.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion and others may defend your comments.

(And I am not disputing your right to say whatever you wish, not matter how low-life)

Dorian de Wind

Leonidas

The guy is whacked out, just like Jeremiah Wright.

DLS

Dorian: I'll tell the guy who made the bet with me, that I kept. Thanks for the note.

Father_Time

It's not getting more violent, it is already violent. Apparently everybody here forget Tim McViegh.

dunno_moire

It is no 'man of God' that makes such statements. Were he to pray for Obama to 'see the light' or 'change his opinion to consider the other side' we might all think this hooligan sane. No, it is not a man of God and this minister should be the one God punishes for misusing his pulpit. I agree with the sentiment that the press should not be giving this loon a voice.

Just a reminder though, it isn't only 'the right' that wishes for death and violence:
http://patterico.com/2007/03/05/leftist-hate-sp...

That is a list of the more famous nonsense from 'priests' of the liberal agenda. There are untold numbers of calls for death and violence buried in the medias of popular culture - records, magazines, blogs, books, etc. Each writer of such material is in fact a type of 'minister', they 'minister' to their flock of fans and any other that pay them heed - those that go to them for 'mental nutrition'. The spirit is not fed by clergy alone, what is heard or read goes deep into the mind of an appreciative recipient.

HATE AND VIOLENCE ARE REPREHENSIBLE WHEN PREACHED BY ANYONE IN SUCH POWER.

dunno_moire

DLS - everywhere in this country has narrow minded segments. Last decade I spent some time 'finding' myself and when in Southern California I was told by homeless blacks that they 'knew' to avoid the Pacific Northwest because 'there ain't no black men there and they like it that way'. Maybe Seattle has a Fluffer Nutter center but it is in between layers of cracker. Likewise the Northeast which is so often depicted as liberal is where I encountered the most ingrained forms of racism and the most passionate of hateful divides. Up there I've heard whites say things like 'stereotypes have some basis in fact' and minorities say menacingly 'whitey you don't belong in this neighborhood if you know what's good for you'.

IMHO it is the Northeast that harbors the most fearsome powder keg of racial and political divisions, I have a valid reason for holding such an opinion as I grew up there and spent almost thirty years in the NYC metropolitan area (suburban and urban). I live in the South now and I'll tell you for a fact it is THE FIRST place I've been to in this country where I've actually found interracial neighborhoods (I live in one) and workplaces (I've worked in some), The South is also THE FIRST place in the US that I've been to where I've seen people besides myself actually confront other whites for their bigotry. My experience has shown me that all the stereotyping of southerners as narrow minded simpletons is so much ego-stroking for the liberals elsewhere who have friends and family members and inner demons with closet fascisms and they know it full well.

AustinRoth

dr. e -

Totally off topic, but you, along with others, have maintained an interest in my daughter's progress. I will try to keep it short.

She is progressing well, the bones are almost finished completely knitting, and she now walks with just a cane (no crutches). She still has a limp, and it is too early to know if it will go away completely, but the doctor thinks she will always have a small one, especially when she gets tired.

Her medical board came back, and the Navy has given her a fantastic settlement. They have declared her 60% disabled, and also classified her temporary retired Navy, disabled. After her later medical board reviews, she has been told it is very likely they will keep her at that level, and she will have a small pension for life, full Tricare insurance, and all the other additional benefits that come from being retired military.

She is also eligible for the new GI bill, which has many other great benefits.

But the really big news is she will finally be home next week, and is ready to move on to the next phase of her life. She plans to stay with us for the time being, return to college part-time in the sping, then move out and go back full-time to school in the fall.

Thank you again to everyone here for all your kind words and wishes on her behalf.

AR

T-Steel

Thanks AR for the update. Off-topic, yes. Important, yes! Glad that you said it.

As to the topic at hand, as Leonidas and others have said, this guy's as nuts as Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And like Wright, this "pastor" should be minimized to a nonsensical blip across the American mosaic. 'Nuff said.

D. E.Rodriguez

AR:

News such as this is never "off topic."

Thanks for sharing with us at TMV

Dorian

roro80

Holy cow with the false equivalencies that constantly crop up on this site. It's not moderate to say that advocating for the extermination of 8% of the population and praying for the death of the president is in any way equivalent to anything that Jeramiah Wright ever said. In case it needs to be said: no, I don't think that Jeramiah Wright is great or awesome or without blame in preaching things that foment distrust. If you can find a place where he calls for the murder of large numbers of people, I'll be happy to admit he's just as bad as this "pastor". Until then, NO.

StockBoySF

AR, thanks for the update on your daughter! It's great that she's healing and is making plans to move on with her life. She gets her strength from you and your wife. It's great that she'll be staying with you for the time being. All the pets will be very therapeutic for her. Thanks again for the update and take care!

SteveK

AR... That's great!

dunno_moire

roro80 - whatever are you talking about? "...false equivalencies..."? Hate is hate and it shouldn't be tolerated much less reacted to in proportion to what 'level of hate' is expressed as you appear to be implying.

Amongst all the 'counter cultural' elements I've known it would be the real hard core 'national front' nazi types that scare me the most. However, having been a socialist/communist most of my adult life I know for a fact that there is plenty of hate on both ends of the spectrum, 'The Left' has many adherents that would attempt to manifest their agenda through violence given the opportunity. Please do not diminish the argument against hate expression (no matter the source) by disparaging an honest reminder of the universality of hate.

We may be dealing with a perceived majority's opinion being more vocally or more forcefully expressed with a comfort available to the dominant when we see the so called 'christian' conservative extremists share their viewpoints However, when there has been a riot in the inner city over the last few decades it is a majority therein that rises up and expresses its often poorly defined and poorly conceived and poorly communicated rage (which I am herein not attempting to judge or qualify). I was outside L.A. during the 1992 riots and I can tell you it felt more like our country was 'at war' then it did when I watched the 9-11 WTC attacks unfold on TV that fateful morning. Wake up to the reality of explosive potential in all parties, in all peoples, in all areas, in all ways. Attempting to lend legitimacy to Jeremiah Wright by saying he's not as open in his expressions of hatred doesn't wash with me. Defuse all bombs everywhere because if severe unrest degenerates into a wholesale free-for-all we may experience a pseudo-evolutionary (survival of the fittest) determination of outcome and quite possibly dominance in numbers could provide easy purchase of a false "fitness" for a particular grouping. I am not wanting that and I am praying earnestly against such. This great country I love is defined for me through its defense of the under represented, its protection of the oppressed, its history in attempting to lead towards peace and work towards compromise. Let us join in hating ALL hatred and agree to not tolerate false validations or legitimacies no matter how deserved they appear, let us despise anything that would attempt to lend credibility to anyone's malignancies.

tidbits

Shared this with my wife and daughter, AR. All our best.

dunno_moire

Would it be right if the Secret Service expressed interest in this hooligan? Is there 'Freedom of Speech' protection for such statements falsely represented as legitimate prayer? It is the veritable slippery slope before us when there is consideration of governmental agency being applied to suppress such stupidity. Should every rock or rap star have to avoid sensitivities every time they wish to express their formulated opinions, should they live in fear of government reaction? I'd like to see Christians or the ordaining Christian agency discipline this man publicly and in whatever way possible through application of theological authority before we seek government involvement. Surely there are denominational groupings that could issue press release statements to be broadcast as widely through the media so there is contrast given to this lone loon's behavior and statements. Should no Christian theological group stand up to do so it should be entreated by its members to so act - there should be an exertion of earned right to represent the Christian faith in a more positive and constructive way.

tidbits

DLS - I logged back on a bit ago to say this but was caught by AR's comments. Now I must speak out.

Hours back I read Dorian's comment about your comments on his previous post, and read your reply. Please understand that I speak with respect for you in saying this.

DLS, you and I have have exchanged pleasantries about our experiences in the Phoenix area. We have shared ideas, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, but always on amicable terms and with mutual respect. But your comments on the Kennedy's being "worm food" are unacceptable.

Real courage DLS is not measured by the ability to rationalize (I know, I've done it). Rationalization is fundamentally cowardly, someone looking for an easy way out. You are a conservative. As a conservative, you do, or should, believe in traditional values. Those values, damn it, include not speaking ill of the dead and certainly not engaging in the kind of despicable, and yes hate-filled bile that Dorian quoted from your prior comment.

DLS, as someone you know in a way, I call upon your integrity. I call upon you as an American. I call upon you as a fellow commenter. I call upon your courage and your ability to reflect. Admit that your comments were over the line.

Ronald Reagan once famously said, "Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall." I say to you, "DLS retract those statements."

ordinarysparrow

Austin. . . .Great News thanks for the update. . .may her future be bright and filled with the good things, she deserves it. . .

archangel

yours was a good question, Tidbits. And ought be revisited from time to time. I didnt hear you challenging, just heard a concern many of us have about how/when/why/where to tell the story.

Regarding your other note about how to expose without according a national stage, I think that time of throwing a blanket over Franklin's wheelchair to hide his frailty from the public, is over, has been over perhaps from Nixon/Bernstein/Woodward et al, onward.

In part, perhaps even mostly, the MSM would have a hard time subverting stories, because the public has become the media manipulators' worst nightmare: educated... smart, and thereby far less gullible, far more Missourah.

I am not sure there is a way of warning the public that can somehow bypass the fatuous gloating of the not-well subject. Fred Phelps comes to mind also. And others. thanks Tidbits

dr.e

archangel

Man, Austin, that is just the best news. Made my day. Read your note to my family tonight and they are so happy your girl is coming home to you and yours, They love to hear their prayers maybe helped a little long distance. We will continue to keep you and your child and your family in our prayers daily Austin and.... please update us any time. I always want to know. Please tell your dear daughter for me that I use a cane sometimes too, and it is a very stylish black one, but... I saw one recently, of all things, being used by one of our commenters at tmv who came to denver on business and we had a meal together.... that cane was outa sight... it was clear lucite .... really cool. I know that our military --my USAF husband says always issues bc everything-- bc glasses, bc crutches, bc canes. So, just in case your girl likes to be stylin' .... in addition to her healing up completely... there's a cool cane store online. Google 'cool canes.'

Thanks AR,
dr.e
p.s. for those not in military, bravo-charlie, that is bc, means 'birth control.' I sure hope that made you all laugh.

redbus

AR -

That's good news, and thanks to your daughter for her sacrificial service to us all.

jeainnj

Folks of this ilk seem to have a particular hatred of Obama because not only is he liberal, but he is black and the son of a Muslim father.

D. E.Rodriguez

tidbits:

Thanks for your comments on the offensive Kennedy brothers comments. You could have stayed silent, but you didn't...That's another mark of courage, as is apologizing.

Dorian

AustinRoth

Once again, thank you to all.

It is nice when we here as a collective group can, when the occasion warrants, put our political differences aside for a second or two, and focus on the simple reality that we all are caring individuals in our private lives.

GeorgeSorwell

Thanks for the update, Austin Roth, it's great to hear!

DLS

"My experience has shown me that all the stereotyping of southerners as narrow minded simpletons is so much ego-stroking for the liberals elsewhere who have friends and family members and inner demons with closet fascisms and they know it full well."

I've lived and traveled all over the USA (and elsewhere) and understand completely what you're writing.

Actually, the South is the PC target of bigotry and much worse, while it's become far from the old pre-Civil Rights stereotype. (Even the older whites, such as the guy in Selma who was there during the marching at the bridge, the event that made the news so long ago, told me that race relations in the South are nothing like they were, and are arguably the best in the nation. And that's in addition to the many people relocating there from the Northeast and Midwest, with blacks reversing what their elders did long ago, and a migration that includes many a liberal as well as Democrat.)

DLS

"Admit that your comments were over the line."

They were deliberately over the line. I actually thought they were bizarre when I encountered them and was challenged to post them. (Why? This is a liberal site and is associated with politics that involves venom much more [and truly] vicious directed at Bush, as it was at Reagan before that.)

I chose to post them even even though I thought they were bizarre and I knew they would be provocative (especially to worse Bush-haters). I'll admit here that they were cruel and I knew it.

For what it's worth, I truly view Kennedy's passing as I wrote elsewhere, as the passing of a 60s liberal era dinosaur along with the passing of that era, and the end of the Kennedy (Brothers) mystique. That he went radical along with liberalism (to remain a standard-bearer and to keep in stride with the lib-forefront politics of his constituency in places like Cambridge, don't forget) is fact and harmed him, though he was on borrowed time anyway and as I also said, he faded except as a kind of Sixties-and-Kennedy-nostalgia celeb by the 1990s.

And, of course, my active response to his death is shared by many a liberal as well as many a non-liberal like me: I'm more motivated now than before to visit the Kennedy brothers' site in Arlington the next time I'm in DC. (I thought of this immediately on learning of his death, as a matter of fact.)

DLS

Austin Roth's news is Sierra Hotel.

jchem

AR - I'm a day late but allow me to add to the well wishes for you and your daughter. I've taken a bit of a sojourn from commenting on all of the posts but I have been keeping a regular routine in reading. Your last comment was completely spot on.

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