An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right

Are Democrats Snatching Defeat From The Jaws Of Victory (Again)?

frigate_5589.jpg

A quickly emerging question on the political scene is now this: are the Democrats going to do it again? Are they really going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

It certainly seems like it’s headed in that direction.

Although events — and political takes — in our increasingly hyperactive political culture can suddenly change the calculations, it seems several factors are at work. But the bottom line is this: all talk of a new Democratic majority now seems so outdated..so.yesterday…as polls show the Democrats’ as a party and Barack Obama as a President suffering image hits. Meanwhile, the party’s liberal wing is making rumblings about accepting absolutely nothing less than the “public option” — raising at least the possibility that if it doesn’t get what it want it could help sink health care reform, regardless of the misinformation campaign waged by some Republicans and political talk show hosts.

Second bottom line:
watching the Democratic party seemingly twiddle away a mandate (again) raises the issue of whether the current generation of Democratic strategists and tacticians are as savvy as their Republican counterparts. This isn’t a matter of Democrats matching some of the GOP’s often reprehensible tactics; it’s a matter of whether the Democrats are so naive that they could not have anticipated some of them and been ready to counter them. Political junkies love to watch a fair fight and in August 2009 you have to conclude that it is lopsidded.

But this isn’t just the view from here. Here’s Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson:

Here’s the least surprising news of the week: Americans are souring on the Democratic Party. The wonder is that it’s taken so long for public opinion to curdle. There’s nothing agreeable about watching a determined attempt to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

A poll released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center reports that just 49 percent of respondents have a favorable view of the Democrats, compared with 62 percent in January and 59 percent in April. This doesn’t mean, though, that Americans look any more kindly upon the Republican Party — favorability for the GOP has been steady at 40 percent throughout the year, according to Pew.

What it does mean, however, is that Republican efforts to obstruct, delay, confuse, stall, distort and otherwise impede the reform agenda that Americans voted for last November have had measurable success. And it means that Democrats, having been given a mandate — one as comprehensive as either party is likely to enjoy in this era of red-vs.-blue polarization — don’t really know how to use it.

That the Democratic Party is no paragon of organization and discipline is almost axiomatic. That’s not the problem. The Pew poll suggests that the Democrats’ weakness is neither strategic nor tactical but emotional. To quote the poet William Butler Yeats: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

There’s not enough passion on the Democratic side, not enough heat. There’s some radiating from the Democratic majority in the House of Representatives, too little emanating from the Democratic majority in the Senate, and not nearly enough coming from President Obama. Republicans, by contrast, have little going for them except passion — but they’re using it to impressive effect.

Robinson seems truly stunned by the often seemingly tepid support Democrats are giving their own party. And here’s a revelation: weblogs are NOT the political universe so posts on weblogs are not what he’s talking about even thought those who own computers think the political world hings on their golden words:

Where are the millions who so passionately chanted “Yes, we can!” at Obama’s campaign rallies? Where are the legions who cried tears of joy on election night and tears of pride on Inauguration Day? Is Sarah Palin now the only politician capable of inspiring “passionate intensity”?

Democratic leaders should stop backpedaling, stop apologizing and show their followers — by words and deeds — that the principle of universal health care is worth fighting for. They should even allow themselves to raise their voices at times — not motivated by anger but by conviction.

Passion finds expression in anger, but also in hope. Democrats knew and felt that during the campaign. If they forget it, they might as well also forget about achieving the kind of fundamental change that the country sorely needs.

The reality is that there were a large number of Americans who truly wanted fundamental change.

Then there were a large number who truly wanted George Bush, Dick Cheney and his separate branch of government, and the Republicans to get out of the White House ASAP.

And then there were some Republicans disappointed in or angry at the Bush brand of Republicanism or revised conservatism.

Increasingly polls show that the Democrats are holding their base in Obama’s ratings — but losing or starting to lose the other two pegs. Meanwhle, Obama’s once-pristine brand name is taking a big, fat hit. The L.A. Times’ Andrew Malcolm:

The new Post/ABC News poll of 1,001 Americans between Aug. 13-17 shows that only 49% now believe Obama will make the right decisions for the country.

That’s down from 60% at the 100-day mark of his presidency. Worse, only 49% now think he will achieve significant improvements in his hallmark campaign of healthcare reform, a drop of 20 points from last winter.

Fifty-five percent now see the nation as seriously off-track, up from 48% in April.

The president’s overall approval now stands at 57%, down 12 points from April. Disapproval has jumped to 40%, the highest of his seven months in office.

Despite all the travel and good talking, fully 42% now “strongly disapprove” of Obama’s work on healthcare, with support collapsing especially among seniors and the highly-prized sector of political independents. A bare majority (52%) still support creation of a public option, but that’s fading too — down sharply from late June’s 62%.

Obama seems caught in a pincer: liberals are angry because they don’t feel he is keeping promises to come down on the progressive side on insisting on a public option or deep sixing the don’t ask don’t tell military policy on gays. Republicans who are part of the talk radio political culture (which is now a large chunk of the GOP) want to halt Obama’s agenda on health care and other issues and have an eye on 2010 — and 2012. Independent voters have never been monolithic but remain vital and he’s losing some of those who leaned to the GOP side or who had once been in the GOP.

Meanwhile, centrist writer John Avlon flatly suggests that history is repeating itself — the Democrats are indeed poised to do it again.

Liberals revolt against a Democratic president’s pragmatism. Self-defeating stupidity ensues.

We’ve seen this movie before. Here’s a highlight soundbite: “The idea of all or nothing has been pursued now for nearly three decades. No one has benefitted from that.”

That was Jimmy Carter back in 1979, proposing phased-in health-care reform, creating insurance for catastrophic illness. He was opposed by Ted Kennedy and the unions who wanted to hold out for a Canadian-style single-payer system on the grounds that Carter’s plan was “too inequitable.” There were 18 million uninsured Americans then. Now there are 46 million.

Time for a wake-up call. With all the hate-filled hyperbole festering around the summer’s health-care debate (Hitler references now seem to appear almost daily), it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that there is essentially one substantive sticking point separating the center from the left: the public option.

That’s the proposal that is acting as the thin-edge of the wedge in conservatives’ apparently effective argument that health-care reform represents a slippery slope toward socialism.

Remove that plank and replace it with a nonprofit cooperative based on local models that have existed in the heartland for decades—as a bipartisan group of senators has proposed—and the reasonable edge of the opposition evaporates along with most of the cost.

The creation of a nonprofit co-op—run by its members—would cost an estimated $6 billion in startup seed capital from the government. In contrast, the public-insurance option—run by a new government bureaucracy—would cost between $500 billion and $1 trillion in taxpayer dollars. If you take the president’s pledge that any health-care overhaul will be deficit neutral seriously—or if you can read a poll or balance a checkbook—you’ll quickly see that the difference isn’t trivial. It’s a fight about adding another trillion dollars to the deficit.

He goes on to say this further down:

Liberals are arguing that without the public option there is essentially no health-care reform. That’s absurd—President Obama was right when he said this weekend that the public option was “one sliver” of health-care reform….

Indeed: Obama is now being blasted by prominent pundits from the left and from the right. Here’s Avlon’s conclusion:

Liberals are in deep denial about the source of the president’s falling poll numbers during this summer’s health-care debate. They think the problem—perceptions of arrogant over-reaching liberalism—is the cure. It’s the same self-serving mistake that the extremes always make.

President Obama needs to depolarize the health-care debate. He got off-message because he got off-center. Embracing a bipartisan bill that replaces the public option with a nonprofit co-op will not “muddy” the debate but help clarify it. It will not be a retreat but a way forward.

Lyndon Johnson once joked that “the difference between liberals and cannibals is that cannibals don’t eat their friends and family members.” In half-century-long history of failed health-care reforms from Harry Truman on down, liberal cannibalism has been as much to blame for defeats as fear-mongering from the far right.

The perfect cannot be the enemy of the good. The goal is to decrease costs and increase coverage. If today’s liberals don’t understand the lesson of their own political history and insist on attacking their president, they will have the failure of this health-care reform on their hands.

(Read his column in full)

Avlon will most certainly now be pilloried as a tool of the right (in fact, he has worked with Rudy Guiliani and also with Bill Clinton) but it is a fact: if progressives do wind up sitting on their hands because the final version accepted by the White House doesn’t have everything they want, then than no matter how many GOPers screamed “Nazi” at rallies, no matter how many stories there are of GOPers bringing guns to Presidential town halls (will the bar soon be lowered to allow Uzis, tanks and missiles?) no many now Senate Republicans seemingly played a shell sham game in bipartisan negotiations to eventually oppose health care reform to save their hides in primaries or close upcoming elections, the GOP in 2010 will say “See? Even Democrats didn’t like the President’s lousy plan!”

Talk radio will then run with the talking point, talk show listeners who trust and love their hosts and use their very words in arguments with the other side will run with it and the Republicans’ massive new and old media machine will repeat it.

And if history does indeed repeat itself and it seems like the Carter and Clinton eras all over again, exactly which party that was in the majority during those times suffered at the polls after those failed attempts at health care reform?

UPDATE: Charlie Cook sees the Democrats as facing political problems, according to The Politico:

Charlie Cook, one of the best political handicappers in the business, sent out a special update to Cook Political Report subscribers Thursday that should send shivers down Democratic spines.

Reviewing recent polling and the 2010 election landscape, Cook can envision a scenario in which Democratic House losses could exceed 20 seats.

“These data confirm anecdotal evidence, and our own view, that the situation this summer has slipped completely out of control for President Obama and Congressional Democrats. Today, The Cook Political Report’s Congressional election model, based on individual races, is pointing toward a net Democratic loss of between six and 12 seats, but our sense, factoring in macro-political dynamics is that this is far too low,” he wrote.

“Many veteran Congressional election watchers, including Democratic ones, report an eerie sense of déjà vu, with a consensus forming that the chances of Democratic losses going higher than 20 seats is just as good as the chances of Democratic losses going lower than 20 seats.”

Read it in full.

  • DLS
    Liberal hype over health care and generalizations from a total of two (2) fiascoes aren't merited, Joe.

    The health care problem exemplifies the Dems' and their camp followers' faults, but the _real_ issue is much larger than that: it's the problem of the Democrats' increasing misuse (with developing threats of outright abuse) of power that has been progressively worse since the start of this year. The real issue isn't if the Dems can ever succeed at increasing federal intervention in health care in the post-Reagan era (which is the most that can be constructed from the related history), but if the Democrats can ever handle power without seeking not only bad goals, but goals substantially to the left of the U.S. mainstream.

    (Obama has recently proceeded to fail and position himself too far left, but the Congressional Dems, especially the more powerful liberal Democrats in the House, have been even more notorious this year.)
  • Lynnehs
    Maybe more of the Democrats would support the co-op idea if someone could explain how, without a public option, it can be used to cover 46 million uninsured Americans. The fear is that this "compromise" will basically say screw you to people who don't already have insurance.
  • Lynnehs
    DLS, a public option can't be said to be substantially to the left of the US mainstream when multiple polls showed over 60% support for one. There has been a decrease in support recently but only because of fear of town hall violence. Also, universal healthcare coverage was a major part of Obama's platform when he was running for office. Is that idea is so leftist compared to mainstream Americans, then how did Obama win the presidency by such a wide margin?
  • shannonlee
    I think it is pretty simple...the Dems have to ram a public option through congress. Anything less than a public option in a health care bill is a victory for Reps and demonstrates to the country that Dems are too weak and inept to govern.

    The polls are going down...the Dems need to take the initiative. They have the votes to do it...and as I have said a hundred times...they just need the courage.

    It has almost gotten to the point where it is lose/lose if they don't pass a public option. At least if they get the public option, the public might like it and decide to keep them in power. If they don't get it...what do they gain? A watered down health care bill? Politically, that is basically worse than nothing.
  • Silhouette
    Here's what this entire article's speculation hinges on:
    ***
    "A poll released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center reports that just 49 percent of respondents have a favorable view of the Democrats, compared with 62 percent in January and 59 percent in April. This doesn’t mean, though, that Americans look any more kindly upon the Republican Party — favorability for the GOP has been steady at 40 percent throughout the year, according to Pew."
    ***
    1. I went to a bar to poll the citizens of a town on how they feel about drunk driving laws. [polls don't always tell us the whole truth now do they?]

    2. If people are mad at both parties, they're going to go with the substance they like.

    3. It is irresponsible to deduce from the poll data above that democrats are doing something stupid by not compromising on the public option. That is pure conjecture. All the poll says to me is that people are pissed off this issue is taking so long. See, there's my conjecture and I could write a whole article on that *smile*...

    I find it hard to believe that a majority of americans, and most particularly those 50 million uninsured, are going to object to the party in the end that brings them an affordable public option that, like most insurance policies today, isn't subject to claim denial, rate hikes and disqualification. You see, on top of the 50 million who we currently pay for in tax dollar through the ERs, there are millions upon millions more who are ANGRY at the insurance industry.

    The coops and other compromises offered by MedMob are just toes in the door for things that "Congress can build on". Translation, they are still industry controlled and in a short time will be doing business as usual with the proper bribery in place [known as lobbying]. How long do you think they'll keep it affordable once the GOP gets re-seated? De-regulation will be the name of the game and in the blink of an eye we'll be having this expensive fight again, new elections, more time wasted and frankly our country cannot withstand any more ER-system-under-the-table waste for these 50-million people.

    Let's do the real math, not the pollster stuff that can mislead the populace into herd-think and our leaders into feeling defeated prematurely...[the most classic of GOP strategies I've seen work so many times before]. If Pew and other pollsters want to retain their integrity with people, they'd better come out with articles like this and say "our poll reflects no such thing definitively, it is simply data collected that can be interpreted any number of ways"

    50 million + how many millions who don't like their huge monthly premiums, being denied care and being bankrupted by deductables when they actually DO receive it? Plus + the millions more who if they were PROPERTLY EDUCATED about how much we already spend in tax revenue to treat the uninsured through the ER system... You've got A LOT of americans who support and want the public option in spite of which high-profile pundit misinterprets poll data to mean.

    Do the math. I mean, really...
  • Great post Joe.
  • shannonlee
    Lynnehs, many conservatives believe that they are in the mainstream, when really they are to the right. So to them, anything that is actually mainstream to the general public, they view as radically left.

    It is all about perspective..everything is relative.

    Edit...to be fair...the left can be the same way.
  • harry938
    Other than single-payer system or public option, no other proposals show how we can:
    1. Cover the uninsured
    2. Prevent insurance plans from dropping you when you get sick.
    3. Prevent insurance plans from denying coverage for preexisting conditions.
    4. Prevent insurance companies from spending their patients' health care dollars on Lobbying (bribes) so congressmen will continue to support their industry.
    5. Prevent insurance companies from spending their patients' dollars on ridiculous CEO salaries and advertising.
    6. Prevent people from losing their insurance when they lose their job.

    And republicans wonder why the American people hold so tenaciously to the public option. Duh!!
    It's not the left-of-the-left that support a public option. It's the center of the center.
  • casualobserver
    @@then how did Obama win the presidency by such a wide margin?@@

    --he did not represent the third consecutive term of a Republican administration

    --he didn't get blamed for the events of 9/15/08

    --he had an experienced bozo as a running mate instead of an inexperienced one

    --he articulated much better than high blood pressure afflicted McCain

    However, you can't sell me on the Obama win as driven by healthcare misreform. As much as lefties here want to rewrite history as this being a big driver, I don't recall very much discussion here at all about healthcare in the months leading up to the election. And, if it ain't copied from Memeorandum into TMV on any given day, it is not recognized by the left as being important.
  • Silhouette
    Yep, and I think the speculation is very damaging to those millions who do factually want the public option. I'd like to see this type of propaganda and trend-sculpting end here at TMV at least.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Avlon's article is great if you think merely in terms of pure political power (as Joe sometimes does). The GOP at least panders to its base. The Democrats simply ignore it....to their peril.
  • Silhouette
    Apparently you didn't read my posts. Democrats aren't ignoring their base. They know the interpretations of the polls aren't reflecting what's really going on. The trend-sculpting cat is out of the bag.

    Here's the math pro-public option. 50 million + Millions of "insured" who are unhappy with the private industry's monopoly, denial and deductables that ruin finances + millions more who, upon being properly educated about how they pay for the 50-million already, will fall in love with the idea of reining costs on the de facto public option that's already in place.

    Millions + millions + millions. Pretty good base if you ask me..
  • casualobserver
    Joe Gandelman, this must be music to your ears! You've got liberals complaining you're not running purely liberal cheerleading posts!

    Is there no justice in the world? Tell Stickings and Kattenburg to get out of bed already and throw up a couple of "F*** those conservative bastards posts. The troops are in need of some nourishing blue meat. They must have lost their IE history to get them over to Kos and HuffPo.
  • Leonidas
    The Democratic mandate consisted largely of replacing Bush, nothing more, at least for the people in the middle who were needed to get them into office. They had no mandate for the liberal wing of the party to enact a decade long wish list.

    The far left is no different from the far right in their behavior. Moderate Republicans and Blue Dog democrats have more in common with each other than with the rest of their party, its a wonder the Liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the Religious Right-Wing of the Republican party aren't dumped by Moderate and independents and taken off to the woodshed and spanked like naughty children deserve.
  • DLS
    Lynne H.S.:

    1. The co-ops could be made to work, and would be sought to work, for the currently uninsured, because of course (this is a real-world aspect; context is not limited to the theoretical only) this would be the new, substitute "public option" federal government presence, and naturally this would be something like a quasi-private (i.e., public but nominally private, less so than "private" providers under Medicare control, but rather like Amtrak [the National Railroad Passenger Corporation] or, say, Fannie Mae, FNME). And (to proceed to the more important point from there), being a government creation, it could more easily get all kinds of subsidies (subsidized discounts, the rest, say, coming out of general revenue; Medicare has phony 25% "premiums" and 75% funding "mandatory" out of general revenue, after all) and the ability to engage in the rigged "competition" to wear away the private sector (described by the lie, "keep them honest," i.e., facing diminishing market share and, likely, losses) -- just like the "public option" scheme.

    2. But do they _need_ to work and does Washington really _care_ if they work? How much forethought has really been given and serious effort made on behalf of co-ops, to date? Next to none. These weren't ever seriously sought as an alternative to the "public option" scheme. These co-ops are just in practice a euphemism and concern-reducing device, and only now are seen as a face-saving backup, not merely a substitute, for the "public option" scheme that has so many people concerned or opposed.

    3. "a public option can't be said to be substantially to the left of the US mainstream when multiple polls showed over 60% support for one"

    What polls, when? The public doesn't want the radical change promptly to Medicare for All or whatever other universal federal health care program's name it would be. ("Single-payer" has always been weasel language, cowardly and evasive. WHO'S THE PAYER? Always the same answer, _avoided_ though the real issue all along. [scowl]) The opposition to the "public option" is to an obviously large extent because intelligent people know this is a blatantly transparent incrementalism effort intended to "crowd out" and replace private health care (it's pre-paid comprehensive care, not "insurance") with government (public) health care. As much or more opposition to this measure is not due only or specifically to the "public option" but due to many other details of the legislation, or with the nature of it and how it is being crafted and shoved down people's throats (in addition to bypassing objecting members of Congress in an unethical manner, which is openly threatened), and how it's the latest and worst example of very bad conduct as well as very bad legislation (increasingly so) by the Democrats in Congress and Obama.

    4. "Also, universal healthcare coverage was a major part of Obama's platform when he was running for office."

    There is a great distinction to be made (and should never be difficult to make) between insurance and insurance reform, and comprehensive health care and federal expansion into health care and provision of it -- obviously.

    With this health care issue but with other issues as well, the Dems have not only been rash and sought bad legislation for us (and hurried and strong-armed it through, wrongly) but have grossly overreached what goals might be argued to be reasonable and even desireable. This is simply the worst example (to date, at least). Why didn't Obama concentrate on insurance (and pre-paid health care) by actually choosing specifically (and _only_) to seek true reform? Where was the simple and superior choice, instead, to require large-population "community rating," set up uniform (thus portable) benefit packages, perhaps even (overdoing things, but arguably aligned with similar goals) establishing price controls or utility-style regulation (of charges and provision criteria) in addition to the other things I listed? This is so easy to list, once more (I've done it easily, numerous times). Why didn't he choose to be reasonable rather than rashly over-ambitious (and arrogant and conceited, as some lib Dems in Congress are, too)?

    Oh, and why didn't he attain the political and other high ground he unconvincingly claimed he wanted to do (as if we more intelligent people ever would have believed him or other noteworthy Dems) and first seek Medicare and other government health program reforms before expanding the scope of the federal government (which, coincentally, would thereby have improved in its reputation beforehand) into health care?

    No, he and the crazier lib Dems couldn't do that, for that's not as fun as kids doing what they really want without limit, instead.

    [scowl]

    * * *

    "Kos and HuffPo"

    Normally play-pens of children, but even some of the kiddies at "HuffPo" have expressed objections to,and concessions of problems with, this failing effort and what it threatens to do to people. (It's not a surprise but still disgusting that these people, in addition to the farthest extremists on the Left, who don't like anything other than instant Medicare for All and reject anything that retains any private interests in health care, have been interrupted and treated rudely, as I've witnessed on CNN, for example, recently.)

    This worst Dems' effort so far (conducted by the farther-left Dems, pulling this nation well to the left of the mainstream), seeking bad legislation (rushed stupidly, made sloppily, often incomplete or changing with each hour), is obviously faltering, and deservedly so, and is revealing itself to be overreach beyond even the crazier lib Dems' frantic and irrational grasp.
  • I have to agree with Leonidas on this.
  • DLS
    "You've got liberals complaining you're not running purely liberal cheerleading posts!"

    It reminds me of the callers on NPR yesterday who were howling that Obama is a coward for not rushing stupidly at full speed with the "public option" (and with other things the mainstream finds poor or bad).
  • DLS
    "largely of replacing Bush, nothing more, at least for the people in the middle "

    And punishing the GOP or at least expressing dissatisfaction with them (as in 2006, earlier).
  • shannonlee
    Obama ran on a platform of "Change"...so...it is hard to say that his election is a mandate for a public option. That being said, thanks to the Rep party and W, Dems have the votes to pass whatever they want.

    Why shouldn't they ram through their agenda? Does anyone here think the Republican party wouldn't be able to pass anything they wanted with 60 Senators? Reps would have had this thing passed 2 months ago.
  • elrod
    John Avlon's article is entirely void of policy. He likes the co-op only because it stands between the left and right. His statement that co-ops have existed for decades is deeply misinformed; there are only two co-ops that even Conrad holds up. Avlon's piece reads like High Broderism at its worst: "If the left AND the right hate it, it MUST be good!" Sometimes you cannot split the baby down the middle - which is why I argued yesterday that these differences are ideological at core.
  • Leonidas
    "Why shouldn't they ram through their agenda? "

    Simple, 2012 and beyond. If they go for the short term they wont have a long-term.
  • Lit3Bolt
    I really can't believe the sheer cynicism of the American people. It's mind boggling. Everyone accepts as fact that both parties betray their most ardent and partisan supporters regularly in pursuit of some mythological "center," which DOES NOT EXIST. The problem with "moderate" and "centrist" views is that they are so ill-defined and wishy washy as to be non-existent, or are simply veneers for sheer corporatism. (Funny how corporations, regardless of industry, always land in the "middle" to have their views to be espoused by a plurality of Congressmen.)
  • Leonidas
    "Their most ardent and partisan supporters" aren't enough to get them the needed majorities and they will shift to the other side if not appeased, they have options unlike the fringe on the left and the fringe on the right. Whats the Democratic Fringe going to do if they get mad? Vote Republican? Whats the right-wing fringe going to do vote Democrat? Are they going to sit home and not vote and not balance a vote on the other side of center? Well if so they are pretty silly.
  • Lit3Bolt
    Which is why a two party system is corrupted beyond all measure. 35 years since Roe vs Wade...Republicans have been working real hard to reform it. Yup. Real hard. Just like taxes, Medicare, Israel, and SS, just another holy thing no politician will touch.
  • shannonlee
    "Simple, 2012 and beyond. If they go for the short term they wont have a long-term."

    I know this is late but..

    I don't think the American people have the attention span to hold Dems accountable for what they do today. A public option only backfires if there are dead people waiting in emergency hospital rooms.
  • Leonidas
    I think the American attention span just doubled or more with the record deficit spending and government starting to get involved in very important aspects of their life.

    The Obama administration has woken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. nd that Giant is a center right one called the American People.
blog comments powered by Disqus
© 2005-2009 The Moderate Voice | Site design by Elegant Themes | Site customization, hosting, and security by Enxit Group, LLC