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Barney Frank Bats Down “Nazi” Charge At Town Hall

Rep. Barney Frank batted down a heath care reform protester who not only asked him a question suggesting he supported a Nazi policy (Barack Obama’s healthcare reform) but also held a Hitler-like doctored photo of Obama. And Frank did what a politician needed to do: confront this toxicity of polemics head on:
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The Los Angeles Times’ Tim Rutten deals with the issue of the legends about Obama and demonization in this must-read column. But here are some key paragraphs at the end:

It would be convenient to dismiss all this as the undercurrent of paranoid style that is a constant in American politics, but hysterical fantasies of Obama’s purported illegitimacy and secret malevolence continue to bleed into the mainstream media as well…..

Somehow all of this anxious animosity has become the background noise crowding out nearly all substantive and realistic discussion of the critical issues surrounding healthcare reform. This is one of the most complex and consequential initiatives of our time, over which even the most serious-minded people of goodwill are bound to have real differences. The stakes are immense, and the discussion, insofar as the reality of partisan politics permits, ought to reflect that.

Instead, we have Rush Limbaugh darkly informing his listeners that Obama’s real intention is to impose “government control of life and death.” (Limbaugh, of course, never had to worry about whether his prescription drug plan covered Vicodin or OxyContin, or whether his health insurer would pay for rehab.)

A commentator on one of the major conservative political websites told his readers Tuesday that the plan the president and congressional Democrats are proposing will require mandatory nutritional counseling for obese Americans. According to this person, “Obama-care” would send those who disregard the advice to “re-education” camps.

You can’t make this stuff up — but lots of people are, and they’re being encouraged to do so by those in the Republican Party who think that defeat of the president’s healthcare reform initiative at any cost is the GOP’s only hope of substantial recovery in the midterms.

They might be careful what they wish for, because if our national political conversation becomes simply a continuation of talk radio by other means, dominated by people who bring guns to political rallies, who believe that the president of the United States is an alien who wants to euthanize the elderly and imprison the overweight, it won’t matter which party is in power. The country will be as ungovernable as it is deluded.

Many Democrats, thoughtful Republicans (we have several who write here on TMV), and independent voters such as yours truly are watching this demonization festival –which is essentially the growing influence of the emotional, rage-tinged talk radio political culture — with some sadness.

American’s love “take out” food but American politics at all levels increasingly seem to be about “taking out” someone who disagrees with you.

If a politician, reporter, publication, website, blogwriter, or person in comments disagrees with someone , it often triggers an attempt to go on a demonizing attack aimed at trying to put the other side on the defensive and discredit it, rather than address the specific issues the other side raises. The response increasingly is highly personal. Issues are taking second billing to polemics, politically-motivated rage in an escalating “war” to beat back those who dare to see things differently. An issue is raised and the issue is hijacked by personal attacks — so the discussion becomes about the personal attacks.

During Richard Nixon’s time, he had the “plumbers.” Increasingly, parts of American political “debate” on several levels now seem to call for a national septic tank cleaner.

h/T Talking Points Memo

UPDATE: Rush Limbaugh applauds the Nazi question and uses a switch on an old Star Trek joke to make a anti-gay joke about Frank. The term “hate radio” is overused but this is it. HEAR IT HERE.

  • SteveK
    Bravo Barney!
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    About time Democrats start showing some spine and start fighting back the lies and the slime
  • JasonArvak
    It turns out that the person using the Hitler remark to Frank was a LaRouche Democrat: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/200...

    Whoopsie, D.E.R! You were a little quick on your partisan assumptions there. :)

    Joe very responsibly avoided singling out one party as good or bad on the issue of throwing "Nazi" references around. And given the history of "Nazi" accusations coming from the far left with at least as much frequency as that are now coming from the far right, Joe's approach is probably the most honest one.
  • ordinarysparrow
    That is the strength all of our leaders from both sides need to find. . . .

    (Many Democrats, thoughtful Republicans (we have several who write here on TMV), and independent voters such as yours truly are watching this demonization festival –which is essentially the growing influence of the emotional, rage-tinged talk radio political culture — with some sadness.)

    forgive me for this prattle but i came across something this weekend that has given a quasi-frame for the seemingly on-going deterioration of division in politics or maybe Democracy. . . .and has helped a bit with the sadness. . .

    it is Hegel's concept of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. . .where a a system manifests itself in a set of contradictions and oppositions that is ultimately integrated and united without eliminating either pole or reducing it to the other but rather reconciling their common truths and forming a new proposition. . .

    that is the only hope i can see these days with all the antithesis of Democracy. . .where we have gone from the thesis of every persons voice is to be valued to the antithesis where every voice is to be destroyed. . .perhaps there is hope in the Blue dogs, and the Moderate Voices (another shade of blue these days as we watch the degeneration of the division)

    in Mom/Pop language the antithesis of teen years of democracy and what Barney Frank did today is what most every parent has said at least once to the teenage child trying to work out their kinks and contractions. . .

    hope is hoping this is all just a phase. . .
  • PWT
    D.E. Rodriguez, to which Democrat are you referring, Mr. Frank or the LaRouchie?

    Joe, I hope that you didn't work too hard on this post as it appears that the Obama/Hitler smear by a Republican was debunked at about 10:00 am this morning. I know that it would make a nice narrative that the Rethuglikkkans are obstructionists, they are blocking Mr. Obama's reform and comparing him and his policies to Hitler. However, it would seem that the only obstruction is coming from moderate and conservative Democrats and that the Hitler comparisons are coming from the Left (and they should know, Hitler was a true Leftist at heart).
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    JasoArvak says:

    "It turns out that the person using the Hitler remark to Frank was a LaRouche Democrat: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/200...

    Whoopsie, D.E.R! You were a little quick on your partisan assumptions there. :)"

    commenting on my remark:


    "About time Democrats start showing some spine and start fighting back the lies and the slime"

    Whoopsie, Jaso, where do I say anything about the Nazi remark?

    I watched some of Barnie Frank's townhall meeting and stand solidly by my comments: "About time Democrats start showing some spine and start fighting back the lies and the slime"


    Diitto on your comments PWT.
  • JasonArvak
    Ok, D.E.R. I thought that your comment was actually related to the topic of the post rather than just an opportunistic post of a vaguely-related talking point. My bad. Thanks for setting that straight.
  • counsel
    I have to admit both people in that video on Larry King sound like kids arguing while upset...

    One: ["Why are you supporting this Nazi policy?"]

    Two: ["On what planet do you spend most of your time?" ... "Trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table."].

    Which is 7 years old and which is 10?

    Why not say something like

    "I don’t equate trying to provide health care to all USA citizens as being a NAZI tenant or policy. I know many are opposed to the idea of government in the health care system, but there is a desire for improvements to the system. Improvements being considered are governmental health care, altering private systems, and others. While I am supporting __________, I hear you when you say you do not support the bill. I respect your opinion and freedom to so choose, but the majority of my constituents support some modification to the health care system and government provided health care. I hope you agree that providing health care to all USA citizens is worth discussing even if you don’t agree with the proposed method."

    I agree that people get their backs up and feel "attacked" when people disagree with their opinions. What we need to remember is that which is discussed in the Federalist Paper #10--we will all have differences of opinion and need to respect that we all can, and will, have differences of opinion. The answer is not to silence the opposition but to discuss, openly, and protect the rights of all involved.

    However, I don't think either party attempted to help solve the problem. Rather, I think they both got their back up and went on the attack... Sad, that type of thought/action hurts us all.
  • Rudi
    @jason:
    Please show where the Nazis shouters are all LaRouchie Dems. I went to your link, and subsequent links, and missed it. I heard something like LaRouche, but the woman was never ID. Now the case of Heather Blish is an other story. Blish did something similar at a TH meeting, but claimed to be an independent. Well she was lyeing through her teeth:
    http://faithfulprogressive.blogspot.com/2009/08...
    http://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherblish
    LOL - Palin, Blish and Elizabeth McCaughey are all LsaRouch Dems...

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/18/video-bar...
    http://www.necn.com/Boston/NECN-Extra/2009/08/1...
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    No need to apologize, Jason. Easy to see where you got confused.

    Since it looks like Republicans are out to kill the bill, regardless, there has been a move and a mood in the last few days, to actually fight the lies and the fear mongering, and to finally show some spine. That's what I was commending Frank for.

    You'll see a couple of other of my commenst elsewhere along the same lines, and along the lines that it might be time to just go it alone.
  • JSpencer
    People who stoop to these nazi comparisons deserve to be treated like the fools they are. Good for Barney.
  • PWT
    Ditto to what? Answer the question, who is showing their spine, Mr. Frank for standing up to the LaRouchie or the LaRouchie standing up against the steaming pile of bills working their way through congress?

    Sorry that Republicans aren't the enemy in this fight, the enemy comes from within. You still fail to realize that as you talk of Republicans out to 'kill the bill' in a comment thread about a posting that has been entirely discredited. Nothing is stopping Democrats from 'going it alone' but Democrats. They went it alone on the Stimulus Bill in the House, why not with Healthcare?

    There must be more to it.....
  • SteveK
    Dorian wrote: "No need to apologize... Easy to see where you got confused."
    I don't think "just an opportunistic post of a vaguely-related talking point." was an apology. ;-)
  • First and foremost, I don't give a damn who said what from the Left or the Right, none of our Presidents here in the USA can have "Nazi" attached to them. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch! Anyone and I mean ANYONE that thinks one of our American Presidents is implementing "Nazi policies" loses all credibility and deserves a stiff kick in the arse.

    Am I smoking crack or were Nazi policies some of the most depraved, insane, murderous, and downright evil polices ever? And apparently we have elected two Presidents (Bush and Obama) that are Nazis? WOW! We Americans are so stupid. WE ELECTED NAZIS! But I just can't find the depravity, insanity, murder, and evil in Bush and Obama. But they are Nazis nevertheless. Whatever...
  • christoofar
    T_Steel, for the win.

    And good on you , Barney "Rumble!!!"
    This Nazi comparison crap has got to end, regardless of who is doing it.
  • Slamfu
    Obama wants to bring about a national healthcare system. That's what Hitler did right? I see nothing wrong with this comparison.
  • SteveK
    Slamfu wrote: "Obama wants to bring about a national healthcare system. That's what Hitler did right?"
    NO Slamfu, Germany's National Health Care System dates back to Otto von Bismarck's Health Insurance Act of 1883. Hitler inherited it kinda like Obama inherited the Republican Recession and Multitrillion dollar deficit.

    Hitler did have Death Panels though maybe that's where your confusion comes from. Getting a little too much Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh, eh?
  • Don Quijote
    But I just can't find the depravity, insanity, murder, and evil in Bush and Obama.

    Obviously you haven't been paying attention, one of those men started a war against a country that had never attacked the US, that had not sponsored any acts of terrorism against the US and that had no Weapons of Mass Destruction. Said war has created a couple million refugees, killed at least half a million Civilians and devastated economically and destabilized politically an entire region of the globe.

    I would consider any man who did all the above depraved and evil.
  • Sorry Don Quijote. President Bush is not depraved and evil. Saddam Hussien was. And while I vehemently disagreed with the reasons for the Iraq War, it was a military mission focused on WMDs (which didn't exist). American soldiers did not systematically kill Iraqis the way the Nazis did to the Jews. American soldiers did their best overwhelming to help any and all Iraqis displaced by the way. Nazis destroyed and rubbed salt in the wound for giggles.

    So I've been paying attention. If Bush was depraved and evil WE WOULD NOT HAVE A USA RIGHT NOW. This world be the Third Reich Revisted. And this economic crisis would be child's play compared to what would have been wrought.
  • Almoderate
    Normally, I can't stand Frank... I will make an exception here. People are believing these lies because they want to, and frankly, it's a waste of breath to correct them on it. Now, I've seen some legitimate arguments against this legislation raised on this site (for example), and while I may or may not agree with them, the rational and legitimate arguments against it are unfortunately getting drowned out by all the crazy.

    And Republican, Democrat, or Independant... Crazy is still crazy.


    @ PWT

    "However, it would seem that the only obstruction is coming from moderate and conservative Democrats and that the Hitler comparisons are coming from the Left (and they should know, Hitler was a true Leftist at heart)."

    That quote is a gem, I must say. You managed to state that the Hitler comparisons were coming from the left AND compare the president to Hitler in the same sentence! Well played, sir!


    @ Slamfu

    "Obama wants to bring about a national healthcare system. That's what Hitler did right? I see nothing wrong with this comparison."

    Hitler also read the Bible. Hitler was a good speaker and a very influential person, but then so are a lot of people. What's your point? Technically, I could take any random thing about someone and voila! I have a Hitler comparison! Are you seriously insinuating that trying to make health care more available is equivalent to genocide or even remotely hinting at leading to such?
  • Don Quijote
    T_Steel,

    This is where we absolutely disagree. Bush, Cheney & company are evil & depraved. Just because the NAZI were evil & depraved does not mean that all evil & depraved people are NAZIs.

    American soldiers did not systematically kill Iraqis the way the Nazis did to the Jews.

    What do you think Shock & Awe was about? Dropping flowers on beautiful women... It was about killing people lots of people, defenseless people.

    Nazis destroyed and rubbed salt in the wound for giggles.


    What the f*ck do you think we were doing at Abu Ghraib, humanitarian work?

    This was also an administration that went out and found a lawyer willing to write a memo justifying torture and use said memo to go out and torture...

    At what point do you think a government is evil & depraved? Do they have to go out and commit genocide before you will consider it?


    From the Nuremberg Trial:
    the ultimate war crime, is launching an unprovoked attack upon another state, another country.
  • So Abu Ghraib was the norm, huh? Last time I checked the vast majority of American soldiers WERE NOT engaged in activities like that. C'mon DQ! If many more soldiers did the things the "Abu Ghraib" way then you have a case, friend.

    Shock and awe was targeted at the Iraqi military and those of Saddam's regime. War sucks, DQ. And innocents get caught in the crossfire (which is why war sucks). That has been going on since humans have fought wars. But are you saying the shock and awe was targeted at innocents only? That it was a conscious decision to go after civilians?

    Let me stop. We are rehashing the Iraq War. And passions are still too high on that subject. We just have to agree to disagree on this one, DQ.
  • Don Quijote
    If many more soldiers did the things the "Abu Ghraib" way then you have a case, friend.

    Abu Ghraib is the case we know about, and I would not be shocked that for every Abu Ghraib that made it to the sunlight, there are another half a dozen cases that don't know about...

    War sucks, DQ. And innocents get caught in the crossfire (which is why war sucks).

    Which is why war should be the last resort. the ultimate war crime, is launching an unprovoked attack upon another state, another country.

    Let me stop. We are rehashing the Iraq War. And passions are still too high on that subject. We just have to agree to disagree on this one, DQ.


    The problem is that ten years from now when the next Republican President needing to bump up his approval ratings, finds a nice defenseless third world rat-hole to bomb to smithereen all the people who supported the invasion & occupation of Iraq will be there supporting this new invasion/occupation.
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