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What John Mackey of Whole Foods Actually Wrote vs What the WSJ Ran: See For Yourself

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When I first read the WSJ opinion piece by Whole Foods CEO John Mackey, something seemed a little odd. So, I also went to his blog and glanced at the article he had submitted to the WSJ. It seemed, just to an editor’s squinty eye, that what Mackey wrote was originally about 200 words longer than the WSJ piece. Mr. Mackey is known for quoting stats, people, and studies… and often. There was a dearth of those in the WSJ article. Hmmm, I wondered, what happened?

On the case with bloodhounds, ok, a blue tick hound… I noted that Mackey had submitted the piece entitled Health Care Reform, and that whichsoever editor at WSJ had apparently changed the title, retitling it: The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare.

One title exact in terms of Mr. Mackey taking to heart what we have all been told, that President Obama wants our ideas about health care reform et al… and the latter title seeming not bad, but changing the meaning from ‘here are my ideas,’ to being open to interpretation as being ‘against.’

As we all know, out-of-the-gate tone can make all the difference between go-nowhere combat, and an engendering discussion that makes some progress.

Maybe I’ve been in the laundry room too long today, but Mackey’s seemed an opinion piece with the usual bullet points we’ve heard before… however, I thought it was strongly informed as Mackey reports the difference in Whole Foods employees in Canada thinking about health benefits they want most vs what may be offered in the US in the near future.

Very interesting too… Mr. Mackey’s idea that people can tot off a donation on their tax returns to (wholly?) support health insurance for people who are without health insurance (when I think about people w/o health insurance, I think of the most abject of the poor as well as those who are struggling for life and are bankrupt… not as sure about those of way comfortable lives who may decide to quit working and go live out their true passion to play tiddley-winks now that there may be a boon in public health insurance… and no one has said, yet, anything that I think most of us can depend on about lowering costs of equipment, testing, hospital rooms, meds, with all the dozens of layers of middlemen in each of those price-outs)

Yet, Mr. Mackey’s idea… has interesting possibilities if it would not leave a chasm for millions of ill people to fall through if that were the only safety net for them. It seems depending on already taxed-to-the-gills (taxed to the galls) taxpayers– to sort of volunteer to tax themselves for the greater good is a spiritual idea, found in tithing, for instance. That is an ancient and holy idea, and usually revolves around a self-described tribe of one sort or another, but not a nation of 280+million.

Although ‘tithing’ for the nation might not be a a solution dependable for life and death situations across the USA, it could perhaps be ‘part’ of a set of complementary solutions.

I used some of my lower register forensics-software to see what had happened to Mr. Mackey’s piece before and after WSJ, and what WSJ had added… and what WSJ had deleted. There are some edits for what we call ’style’ … some of the old papers still use a ’style manual’ to make everyone sound literate and in the same syntax, though with differing ideas. Some of the edits/adds are for redundancies in same sentence, grammar, and to rearrange the order of some things.

Tone may have been affected by addition of some words… to my mind, from an earnest supplicatory and well informed tone, to perhaps in places what could be intrepreted by various readers as a “do that and this and this,” rather Stentorian tone. It doesnt seem from reading Mr. Mackey’s original piece that it was meant to be so… re those who took it that latter way.

Ironically, given the sudden dog-fight that has seemed to erupt over Mr. M’s edited WSJ article, as you’ll see, interestingly enough, the references struck from Mackey’s article also often have two different groups of people trying to fight over who is or isnt the cock of the rock. The names struck from the article, are some of the folks who are called ‘new age and out there’ by one political group… and called ‘cutting edge and frontier’ by a whole other group of people with a different world (and often, political) view.

Really, I just wanted you to see the whole letter, regardless of edits, since so many appear to be railing and/or defending without actually having read the WSJ piece or/and not having seen Mr. Mackey’s original submission to WSJ.

One last note, traditionally, whether working as a journo for a print-on-paper newspaper, or being a freelancer (like Mr. Mackey) to an op ed page … in the old style of running a newspaper, the editors changed anything they wanted, cut anything, added anything they wanted. In the old model of newspapers, freelancers and journo employees were not given final say so (final consent) over their own writings. Frankly, on another topic entirely, surely the time has come to let the journos and freelancers keep to a strict word count themselves without others deciding what to put in or take out. It’s not that two heads arent better than one. They often are. But, allowing the writer the final say-so over their words… that would be part of freedom of the press too.

KEY: The black type is where original piece remained as originally written by Mr. Mackey. Red bold print is what has been added by someone other than Mr. Mackey for WSJ. The blue strikeout type is what someone from WSJ has deleted from the piece originally written by Mr. Mackey.
dr.e

___________
Note to editors at TMV, if you can find a pix of wholefoods logo that doesnt enlarge all in dots, please put up at topmost with thumbnail too? WP is acting up (or I am) and wont take one more pix from here. Thanks. Dr.e

Update: Geez. I just looked at the wholefoods logo just now as pub’d texttop, and it’s partly cut off, and looks like it says Ole Foods. I am going to be in so MUCH trouble. Man that ‘wise latina’ thang is really out of control, leaping across the nation, making everyday words into Spanish ones or else Scandinavian ones without the diacritical… o.my.gosh.help.we’re.being.taken.over.by.the.swedexicans.

Final Update: one of the editors at TMV has put up a new black and white logo for Whole Foods. It no longer is too large for the page. It no longer reads Ole Foods. RIP Ole.

Thank you reader for abiding. Appreciate it.
dr.e

  • CStanley
    Interesting analysis, Dr. E. My take on it is that, other than the title, they didn't seem to change much other than style and format, and it didn't seem to change the tone. The title though, probably does make a difference. And that, coupled with Mackey's own choice to lead off with the Thatcher quote, probably would tend to set people off and color their reading of the rest of the article. Frankly I never realized that Thatcher would be so controversial- I knew she wouldn't have fans among progressives, but from the reactions it seems that quoting her favorably has the same effect on a leftie as would quoting Marx or Che to a rightie.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Take off the Thatcher Quote and the title and I disagree with him but have no real issue with it AFTER reading the edits. I don't think its really boycott worthy anymore either though I do not know what I expected from the WSJ. Anyone I hear bitching about it I will point to the original article and I doubt many of them will much care anymore either.
  • archangel
    CS, hi there, nice to see you as always. Your remarks about Mrs. Thatcher made me smile. There are SO many different responses to what she has said and done, many of her words taken out of context. But/ And you are right. There seems like there's this trove of kryptonite that has different people's names on it, Che (not Chi Chi Rodriquez), Marx (not Groucho), Thatcher, (not the bird) that rises and up takes various forms as weaponry. I'd just truly like to get down to business: Inflated costs of medical equipment, premises, property, insurances for docs and hospitals, meddies, and care. Inflated hugely while starving out the lower tier of workers and patients. I want to see the number CS. Nobody can provide accurate numbers of what say a MRI costs in materials, what is costs to make off shore, what it is sold for, who insures it, what the mtc agreements look like.

    It is maddening to be at end-game when all the hard fact are STILL not on the table for all of us to see and evaluate.

    This is why, amongst removing his sources, I also thought that the part they took out wherein Mr. M said, 'people need to be able to compare and contrast costs and services' was a great point that ought to have been left in.

    A critical one that had Mr. M been able to make his point exactly that way, could have led to the discussion no one seems serious about having at the top. Costs of machines. Cost of maintainance agreements. Costs of rentals. Ponzi costs. et al

    Without cost analyses and lowering of costs which have been essentially putting a siphon hose into any sick person's bank account til person may survive, but bank acc't dies deader than a doornail....(CS, remember the $500 hammers for DOD?, we have same and worse in health care field, serious serious preposterous costs that are NOT merited.) NO health care reform will be able to stand past the first layer of marketing associates. You know what I mean, I think.

    I want to know the numbers re costs of all above; give me ten typifiers if need be, but any person with a business head, has to know the numbers before making a decision about anything so vital. So that once in place it will work. Not kinda sorta. Will work. Period. And for that, sharp oversight is needed too. Incredible, INCREDIBLE how many have scammed the gov't system, both as applicants to various programs, as well as employees helping themselves to taxpayer money.

    dr.e, who's been, as I mentioned, too long in cellar today. lol
  • Yup. As SkyFather and CStanley both point out, the lead-off Thatcher quote is what most likely sent everybody over the deep end.

    SkyFather -- I'm glad you're back down off the ceiling. **smiling** And there was no need to apologize for your "rantiness" on the other thread, either. No offense taken, no harm no foul.
  • I agree, dr. e -- #7 in the original (unedited) version was changed rather too much. He was going for a much different discussion initially with that one.
  • lisastone
    Maybe they can lower their prices.
  • archangel
    Dear Magi-sky, nice full handle incidentally. With you, I dont think a boycott is in order in most cases of most things either. As y ou and others have stated, as we know from having a boycott called on our entire state 15 years or so ago, it harms greatly the poor and the working poor, their children, their old ones, all of the wage only earners, puts them out on the street, out of business, out of jobs. It's not just words, it's tragedy after tragedy after tragedy for those who live so low in salaries without anything to lean on.

    The Wall Street Journal was bought up by Rupert Murdock in 2008. He fired wholesale huge numbers of editors and journos, or made their lives miserable with his take on matters. He is not a silent owner. He is an owner who demands his own influence in the news and the views of the news of the WSJ. For what its worth, they invited Mr. Mackey to write the Op Ed. Mr. Mackey may not have realized he would be edited and title changed. Mr. M says he wrote his personal opinion, that WF doesnt have an opinion on health care changes.

    I think he thought, maybe, that people would see that distinction, but it's a little like the Pope speaking personally, and saying, I am not speaking for the church. But, wait, Pope is CEO of church. Right?

    I think Mr. M made an error of thinking others would see his op ed as he himself saw it... his own opinion and no more. It's a lesson. One most of us have learned in icky ways somewhere in life. If one hasnt yet, one will. Best intentions arent always understood by all.

    How come there's never a girlcott? Maybe we should riot over that? lol

    dr.e
  • CStanley
    How come there's never a girlcott?

    You made me LOL with that one, Dr. E. I think you'd be great at standup.

    Your more serious points are well taken, too.
  • archangel
    dear Polimom, hi!! nice to see you again.

    I think too that page # 7, but was also looking at how (you know us writers --you, me, others-- always noodging over which of three words is exactly the right word to use in a sentence... and being wron g part of the time...lol) the words that are personable are often edited out and changed to what I'd call dry nouns and dry qualifiers. Like editing out choose {'our own'} doctors, and instead putting 'choose doctors. '

    You have a good eye polimom. There are as you mentioned several other places where the personable is deleted leaving a more austere feel.
    I like what you said to Magical.

    thanks PM
    dr.e
  • archangel
    Ah C. Stanley, to make people laugh, doesnt that make the heart happy. Thank you.
    Ill try to be funnier now. lol
    I did think the pix I noted in my update at bottom of page, still on TMV home page says Ole Foods, instead of Whole Foods. That's kind of funny, yes?

    lol.
    dr.e
  • CStanley
    Ole Foods, instead of Whole Foods.

    Hehe...well, maybe they can go with that to attract new demographic groups.

    It could be Ole Foods to sort of go for the Cracker Barrel crowd, or put an accent on the E and start carrying more Latino food products. ;-D
  • archangel
    dear lisa stone
    I'll bet a lot of people wish for lower prices. Lots of places. I think I read that Whole Foods is actually offering 'catering' to take home... lots of people hours chopping and cooking and packaging stuff. All that is in the price along with bennies and property insurance and hazard insurance and liability ins,... and all other things. As I was writing this article and cruising for news of Whole Foods corporate, I saw that there has been a regular flyer /newsletter that goes out to ka-jillion people telling them what the latest cheaper deals are at WF, and when things are on sale. And one I saw, said how to feed a family of four for under x number of dollars. In this economy, I think all the foodstores have to try to emphasize cost savings and hopefully quality too. A lot of people I know see WF as a sometimes 'treat.' Rather than the place they buy all their staples. Too, Im sure there are those who would buy there more often if they could afford it. And people who buy there all the time without thinking a thing about price tags. And some who no doubt shop there with a frugal eye.
    I just had some Olathe sweet corn from a little farmer market stand. A friend brought it to me. Oh. My. Goodness. So good, so sweet, didnt even need butter or salt. Hope you have sweet corn, if you like it, before the season is over!
    dr.e
  • archangel
    c. stanley, that's funny. Cracker Barrel. I like crackerbarrel. And molé too. lol. Ok CS, your work is cut out for you: Letter to Corporate, Hello my name is C.Stanley and I would like to make an awesome suggestion to you about products... see y ou just light up the Ole part of Whole foods signs at night and like you know, have Mexican night shopping and then Scandanavian night shopping another night.... and, and

    Make sure you ask for a cut of the profits CS, you know, for being a phophet and all.

    thanks for the respite from the blog-Colusseum CS, lol
    dr.e
  • racetoinfinity
    no offense, but since we're talking writing: I assume you meant "personal," not "personable." Pace.
  • racetoinfinity
    Thanks for giving us the whole magilla, edits and all - it does seem less onerous to me, a professed progressive, but, still, I can't agree with Mackey. The information on providing health care accounts to his employees ("partners") is good news; all I'd heard about was a high deductible (which I had assumed was perhaps $5,000).
  • archangel
    hi there racetoinfinity, and welcome

    I can see that it could be taken either way. In this case, I meant 'personable,' as in a warm manner, sympatica, having a hint of warmth toward others. There's a place where 'team members' for instance is changed to 'employees' by the editor. The phrase 'team member' is much more affable, I think, than 'employees.' Two different meanings. Knowing a bit about Mr. Mackey, I dont think he meant just corporatespeak with his term 'team members.'

    There are other places where a word that could be interpreted pretty easily as affable or warmer in intent, was removed.

    There's a saying among seasoned editors who deal in editing for original voice like I do: Dont make the writer's voice sound like your own... or those you most esteem. There's another saying, Dont flatten the writer's voice so the work could have been written by anyone. There's one more: Dont remove idenifying data/ideosyncracies that support the thesis, that only this particular writer would reference. So that the writer's work carries original voice intact. Not stripped down to sound like anyman/ anywoman. Facts are essential, but the voice they're written in ought carry a sense of the writer's world view that's only theirs alone. Just my two cent's as an editor of books, theses and articles for our time. Other editors may have a different world view than mine.

    But thank you for giving me your thoughts. You clearly too, have a 'ear'/eye for words.

    dr.e
  • archangel
    Dear racetoinfinity, (like that name)

    I'd glad we can see it as an op-ed that we can agree with or not agree with. Some seemed to think it was a Senate bill being proposed. lol.

    I was interested to see 'why' Mr. M's letter seemed so inflammatory to so seeming many ... I think the folks here nailed it... change of title, and first quotation. In editing, I tell writers, first three sentences set the tone and predict the middle and end. Some eds would say first sentence alone.

    I think you hit it when you said the people who work for WF have a decent and plus some health care plan, it seems. I've a friend who is a young father with two little children who works in the, um deli do they call it? at WF and who loves working there. He seems secure in his sense of providing for his family.

    I think by the time next week is up, dont you, we will likely know more than needed about what, where, who, whereforest goeth all WF people including disgruntled few, and loyalists, all. No doubt a squadron of blogger drones are working on this issue as we speak.

    I h0pe that made you smile

    dr.e
  • petemcmanus
    Surely the name "Thatcher" is not the poison in the introductory quote. Mackey must know that charges and denials of "socialism" have been made at high heat this summer. A leadoff jibe at "socialism" is not the way to begin a thoughtful discussion of health care, if that is actually what he wants.
  • stillidealistic
    I'm new here. I am a regular poster over at TPM and got sent here to see the original Mackey article. I don't get what all the fuss is about. Everyone (even a CEO) has the right to speak their mind. The whole boycott frenzy makes me feel dirty. It wasn't right for the liberals to shout down conservative speakers on college campuses, it isn't right for the conservatives to shout down speakers at town halls, and boycotting a business based on the founder's oped in the WSJ, is tantamount to the same thing. Civil discourse is important to the health and well-being of our country. Stifling it, whether you are on the right OR left is just wrong.
  • archangel
    Dear Petemcmanus
    Thank you, and welcome. You know, I dont know when Mr. Mackey wrote the piece. It could have been written in the Feb or two days ago... newspaper/ newsjournals often work way ahead, as do mags. But, I think you're right too... a lead off w a word like socialism is charged for a lot of people... as we've seen. Boy, as we've seen and seen.

    As I read that glyph, I took the word socialism out, as it is a trigger word, to see if the rest of the sentence hung, or remained true. The sentence appears to be a truism. Saw it up close. USSR/socialism/communisim mix. Finally after the cats at top were as fat as they could get without exploding, bottom and middle layers of culture that still had to stand in line for aspirin and sugar, stopped. Simply stopped working. Stopped going to work. Hadnt been paid by the state for quite some time. Promises empty. The mythology is that the Pope, the POTUS, this one and that one brought down the communism/socialism brew in the USSR. It wasnt either or any of the VIPS. It was the people. The formerly hard-working, often deeply loyal to the state before they awakened, people. The bewildered and disgusted people. I was witness. I can see why many say socialism works in theory but not in actuality. Perhaps there is a way to run socialism without it being a Ponzi scheme, but I have never seen it.

    whether Obama is trying to inaugurate socialism, am not certain. How all this will be financed and for how long, and at what cost is what I am waiting to hear hard facts about... facts that are finite and definitive. So far, no dice, no matter how many documents I read; all are 'tentative,' all are 'in process.'

    I pretty much dont care what people call helping others who cannot help themselves, as long as whatever it is works in peace and in true benefit without further bankrupting the country's hard workers, innovators, inventors... or quashing anyone's initiative, including those who are the first recipients of a giov't program, any helping program.

    Sorry to go on so. Hope you come back to read and comment often Pete.

    dr.e
  • archangel
    welcome stillidealistic, good thing to be, means holding out for striving toward highest. Good. I was once on a panel with Village Voice rugged guy, Nat Hentoff. He wrote a book with a great title, that goes a bit of the way to explain the issue you brought up... and it is an issue ... His book was called "Free Speech for Me, But Not for Thee." Hits a grounder, doesnt it

    Hope to see you here some more stillidelaistic. Hang in there. You're on the right track.

    dr.e
  • LionAslan
    why should anyone have to wade through YOUR poorly written hyphenated- wrongly garbage theo-669-9-9-sixish? Hey, by the way, you're already unread and kicked to the side on the other thread for your off topic crud there. Oooo so clever of you to try to use a different screen name. Whatever. Yawn.
  • cynthiaproffit
    HA HA HA HA ... Mackey regurgitated the rightwingers false talking points that the health care reform would, "move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system." Mackey intentionally spouted out the false, fearmongering talking points of the rightwing.

    Did the rightwingers pay him well?

    Mackey is NOW trying to back track from his own words ... tisk tisk ... not even man enough to stand behind his own words - sounds like a typical rightwinger eh?
  • cynthiaproffit
    TO: Stillidealistic,

    A silent boycott is nothing at all like shouting out during any speech from any speaker ... so ... come again?
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Retailers are supposed to know their customers and cater to them, not piss them off.

    This is as true of the CEO as it is of cashier or a stocker. Maybe even more so, since cashiers and stockers don't have access to the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal.
  • nancymac53
    I believe John Mackey's ideas are good ones. I can't believe anyone in this country would want to turn to socialism as Obama is suggesting. Mackey has a better plan than our government. So let me understand - his company pays 100% of their health care premiums and they get cash each year to choose there own medical path. You complainer's don't like this plan why? Boycott Whole Foods - whose crazy idea is this we should be storming the store to ask Mackey to be head of the health care reform. I work for what I have I don't need handouts from the government. If you want Obama's plan, (for anything) you must not mind laying back and collecting welfare, and anything else those of us who work for living to support you too. That is why this country is in the mess it is in now. Too much welfare and govenrment interfernce.
  • Don Quijote
    How come there's never a girlcott? Maybe we should riot over that? lol


    because Boycott was a person...

    Boycott - Etymology


    The word boycott entered the English language during the Irish "Land War" and is derived from the name of Captain Charles Boycott, the estate agent of an absentee landlord, the Earl Erne, in County Mayo, Ireland, who was subject to social ostracism organized by the Irish Land League in 1880. In September that year protesting tenants demanded from Boycott a substantial reduction in their rents. He not only refused but also evicted them from the land. Charles Stewart Parnell, in his Ennis Speech proposed that, rather than resorting to violence, everyone in the locality should refuse to deal with him. Despite the short-term economic hardship to those undertaking this action, Boycott soon found himself isolated—his workers stopped work in the fields and stables, as well as the house. Local businessmen stopped trading with him, and the local postman refused to deliver mail.
  • Don Quijote
    nancymac3,

    What happens after you have been laid off through no fault of your own, can't get a job for another 6 month and discover that you have breast cancer? Who is going to insure you with a pre-existing medical condition? Which company is going to willing to hire you and put you on their health plan?
  • nancymac53
    Dear Don Quijote, I am sorry for your unfortunate circumstances, but that is not why we should have socialism and government hand outs. By the way, your personally health situation is no one's business and no insurance company or business can discriminate against you for prior conditions. So you are okay there to get a new job and not worry about your health situation. I know my brother-in-law died of cancer and he got a new job with insurance while on treatment.
  • nancymac53
    If anyone would care to go to the whole foods site and read John Mackey's blog, you will understand why he wrote the article. He was not representing Whole Foods at all, and it was in fact the WSJ reporter that changed the name of the article to include Whole Foods. That was unfair and unfortunate. So don't go trying to ruin a perfectly wonderful store for those of us that need it because of some lame brained reporter. He is correct - President Obama has welcomed anyone with ideas please submit them. So just because you have an idea and don't agree - no lynching mob is called for here.
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Here is some actual information about pre-existing conditions:

    Department of Health and Human Services:
    The insurance company practice of denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions is not confined to serious diseases. Even minor problems such as hay fever could trigger prohibitive responses. An insurer could charge high premiums, deny coverage, or set a restriction such as denying any respiratory disease coverage to a person with hay fever, according to the report.

    What’s more, some insurance companies respond to an expensive condition such as cancer by initiating a thorough review of the patient’s health insurance application. If the company discovers that any medical condition, regardless of how minor, was not reported on the application, it could revoke coverage retroactively for the patient and possibly all members of the patient’s family, the report said. The practice is known as rescission.


    How Stuff Works:
    Because a person with a pre-existing condition can cost an insurance company millions, it is in their best interest to exclude those who have them. In this article, we'll explain the many aspects of a health insurance plan's pre-existing conditions exclusion.


    I would also like to add that I am sorry for the loss of your brother-in-law, Nancymac53.
  • Don Quijote
    Nancymac53,

    It's not my unfortunate circumstance, it was a hypothetical. Sorry to hear about your brother-in-law.

    By the way, your personally health situation is no one's business and no insurance company or business can discriminate against you for prior conditions.


    New Report Examines Insurance Company Practice of Denying Coverage to or Discriminating against Americans Who Have Pre-Existing Medical Conditions

    In a new report, “Coverage Denied: How the Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind,” the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services examines the insurance company practice of denying coverage to or discriminating against Americans who have pre-existing medical conditions. A recent national survey found that 12.6 million non-elderly adults ---36 percent of those who tried to buy insurance on the private market---were discriminated against in the past three years because an insurance company deemed them ineligible for coverage because of a pre-existing condition, charged them a higher premium, or refused to cover their condition. Another survey found 1 in 10 people with cancer said they could not get health coverage, and 6 percent said they lost their coverage because of their diagnosis.


    That will be news to most health-insurance companies...
  • tidbits
    DQ - What your source fails to mention is the now almost forgotten unwritten history...recorded only in Irish oral folklore.

    While Parnell made the proposal to refuse to deal with Boycott, the idea actually came from Parnell's scullery maid, ironically christened Molly Girlcott. In the patriarchal and classist society of 19th century Ireland, the uneducated Ms. Girlcott was reduced to mentioning the idea to Mrs. Parnell, who in turn passed it on to her rather doltish husband, who in turn had his butler write a speech on the subject which Mr. Parnell gave, thus taking credit to himself for Girlcott's idea.

    Sometimes history is more than what the offical records reecord.

    z of c
  • nancymac53
    Oh sorry I misinterpreted your comment. Look all I really wanted to voice
    was NOT to boycott Whole Foods. It is the only real health food grocery
    store around. Trader Joe's in not as extensive and there aren't many of
    either around. I don't like politics to begin with and don't really want to
    debate that issue. Thank you for listening.
  • AustinRoth
    Thatcher quote is what most likely sent everybody over the deep end

    Why? I thought only the evil Right was into demonizing and the destruction of reputations of people the disagree with?

    Is quoting Thatcher now the equivalent of quoting Hitler in the Left's mind? (so to Godwin this thread, but...)
  • Actually, AR, I don't think Thatcher herself is the catalyst. Rather, I suspect it's because the term "socialism" was used therein. Reactions (to my eyes) have hinged from that, rather than some deeply-held pathological animosity toward Thatcher.
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Austin Roth--

    To quote a previous commenter on this thread, Pete McManus:
    Surely the name "Thatcher" is not the poison in the introductory quote. Mackey must know that charges and denials of "socialism" have been made at high heat this summer. A leadoff jibe at "socialism" is not the way to begin a thoughtful discussion of health care, if that is actually what he wants.


    While I doubt this boycott is very self-sustaining, I think Mackey is a fool for putting himself and his company in this position.
  • tidbits
    In reading the brief exchange between theo6--- and Lion Aslan above, I was reminded, to my shame and embarassment, that I once criticized an author (Guest Voice) on TMV for style and grammar, rather than responding to the substance of the article.

    Please allow me this deviation from the topic at hand to admit that I was wrong in doing so and to publicly apologize.
  • robgerson
    Look HE chose to lead his article by quoting Thatcher vis-a-vis Socialism. This framed the entire piece regardless of the nibbling and quibbling about style or title changes. He made that choice and it is apparent what his views are on Health Care Reform. Now Whole Foods is sending out desperate spin control BS claiming the piece was actually supportive of the President's health care reform efforts. What a bunch of crap. They are going to get hurt by this economically - badly.
  • Don Quijote
    I don't like politics to begin with and don't really want to debate that issue. Thank you for listening.


    Then you are in real trouble because politics is everywhere.

    A) Basically politics is about who gets what.
    B) If you don't want to talk politics, wrong website...
  • archangel
    dear DonQuijote, thank you for the story about Mr.Boycott. Long ago I saved up and saved up and bought a used copy of the humongous OED which is the most extravagent and luscious work on etymology.... but it only has one line quotes in it, not stories as you put here.

    thanks,
    dr.e
  • archangel
    Dear nancymac53 ... from what we hear, many do not care for pointless jumpabouts who care little for teaching, listening or learning...regarding the political, or regarding any topic.

    A good many thinking persons prefer debate that has substance, facts, thoughtfulness, ideas that are possible, persuasion. And stories, true stories from their own lives or that are substantiated, that shine light on the issues. Those add to the debate greatly, give it depth. The more stories, the better. Part of the SCHIP failure came about because there was only one story publicly held forth, and there needed, in my 2 cents worth, to have been many true stories so we all could see the depth of the issue in Mississipi, in West Virginia, not just one family from one region.Just my two cents worth from hearing and seeing.

    We see across many blogs that defining political discourse can depend greatly on the mindset of the persons doing it, meaning the site owner, and those they comandeer into writing daily for a crust of bread in the lower tier of the ship.lol.

    We have a mindset at TMV for civility. We strive to hold to it. There are many other matters at TMV to talk over, not just politics, and you are always welcome here at this website in the midst of political discussions and otherwise.

    Thanks,
    dr.e
  • archangel
    dear tidbits, regarding your tongue in cheek 'girlcott'... you must be a sci-fi or fantasy author. That was pretty good spin.

    regarding your apology about having ankle-bit a writer who may not have writ according to the old 'style manuals,' thank you on behalf of TMV writers. That was classy. And, it's ok. We down in the galley rowing up stories, are always appreciative of readers' good will.

    Thanks,
    Dr.E
  • archangel
    Dear George Sorwell
    pre-existing. yes. Please stay tuned for an article. Horrendous issue, that. Thank you for bringing it

    dr.e
  • Moderation has occurred in this comment thread. Sorry if it has thrown off some points.

    Thank you.
  • newideas
    Sometimes, in some circumstances, moderation, is a bunch of pretty bells and ribbons.

    I am Canadian. He did not tell the truth about our system. A little smelling with the nose reveals he is an Ayn Rand devotee. That's why I will no longer shop at his stores. Not because he believes in a certain dogma, but because he uses his influence to oppress others. I perfer to spend my money, which is energy only, after all, in more life affirming places.

    Thank you for letting me express my opinion.
  • newideas
    In Canada, we are familiar with the concept of 'peace, order and good government'. It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel. What is necessary is to stop sabotaging our institutions (including our health care system, but also, all aspects of traditional, enlightened, government) by the rats gnawing at the base of the pillars that uphold our civil society and who try to remake our beautiful world in their own image, for their own financial gain. People have drunk of the herb of discord and forgetfulness, have fallen asleep and don't remember that our socio-democratic society once worked very well. Fairness, justice, compassion. Order, freedom. A reconciliation of opposites that is possible and not too many years ago was being manifested.
  • archangel
    dear newideas, welcome and thank you for one Canadian's point of view. I've a special place in my heart for Canada, salt of the earth people like most here in the US too... Canada was the place many of our refugee relatives from WWII were embraced and allowed refuge after the US shut its doors for a time with quotas.

    If you would like to write a guest voice on your Canadian health system, please let me know. I would like to see about running it here. Thank you again.

    dr.e
  • ordinarysparrow
    Dr. E. i tried to get through the Whole Foods alternative to Obama Care. . .first the anger and some tears as i think of my sister laying in a coma this week from a aneurysm that burst in her brain. . .she has been ill for some time but self-employed and couldn't afford health insurance. . .so she wouldn't go to the doctor even when she knew she was getting in trouble from several areas. . .in past 6 months have lost two farmer friends, one heart attack the other stroke, for the same reason. . they did not have insurance for the basic care that would of kept them alive. . . .i can't see the words or the plans these days. . .all the Hell i can see is faces. . .

    The problem with a Nation not coming together and supplying some kind of adequate health care to people that cannot afford it is. . .people you love often die way to soon. . .and even more money is truly wasted in emergency and catastrophic care when preventive care and check-ups could make such a difference in quality and quantity of life and just good economics. . .
  • archangel
    dear dear Sparrow. I am so sorry to hear of your sister. I will pray right away. Please let me know updates, will you, so I know how to aim my prayers?

    I understand and gently would just say, I lost two incredible men friends 2 and 4 weeks ago. (I have been sadder than sad and am literally fatigued from being sad I think) They both died from same thing, one 58, one 62... sudden heart attack. Both had excellent health insurance. Both had recently been to doctors. Both were 'watching' themselves, as were their families, doing what docs told them to do to be ok. I am still trying to understand it all.

    I share your tears. Very much so. I am sorry Sparrow.
    Please lean on my prayers.

    dr.e
  • newideas
    Thank you, Archangel!
  • newideas
    I am sorry, Ordinary Sparrow. And, also for your loss, Archangel.
  • ordinarysparrow
    Thanks Dr. E. . .your prayers are most welcome and appreciated . . .

    Sorry for your recent losses also. . . it is always too soon for those we love. . .no matter the situation. . .

    so many layers and contradictions on the health care debate. . .whole foods with their wide profit margins and selling the wholesome lifestyle. . .this article made me wonder what their policy towards the farmers and all the food workers that are not their direct employees that makes those profits possible?

    have run out of even thinking i can have an answer for all the complexities. . .and divided interest. . .
  • fairwaybill
    Clarissa--

    Ms. Clarissa, you took all that time, tracked all the edits, and accomplished nothing.
    John Mackey doesn't subscribe to your march-step liberal litanies, so you need to whine, as you try, futily, to suggest he was misrepresented by the Wall Street Journal.
    He's a libertarian.
    Why are you feeling your social justice cause has been so violated? Mackey's suggestions are plump with rational thought, not emotions. You shoold look to him for inspiration and calm down by doing some more laundry.
  • archangel
    dear Faiwaybill, I hope that means youre enjoying gorgeous weather on the golf parkway.

    Lets, see. Not a lot of time, Bill. As I noted, its a forensic software I use in my work.

    I do have litanies, my Catholic Litanies, true. The one that gives all the names of Blessed Mother is especially beautiful.

    I noted Mr. Mackey was edited by the Wall St Journal. Yup.

    I think too Bill, you have misread my comments.

    Sorry too, at our house, as at many hunting households, cleaning the armory is called 'doing the laundry, ' or 'been to the cellar.'
  • newideas
    Regarding initiative...it's ironic that the warnings I grew up on about the evils of the Soviet Union are coming to pass, here, in this time of increased laissez faire capitalism. Here, we are waiting in lines and served by indifferent and resentful clerks. We want clean non gmo food and unpolluted water and air, but our officials are not available to the citizens and we have no effective voice. There are 40 choices of toothbrushes, but none of any quality. And, probably none that aren't toxic. Our food can not be labeled as gmo. Even though we don't want to eat that blasphemy. "Torte reform" is code for no legal recourse for me, if you willfully neglect to consider my safety, even my life, with your poisonous product, or action. The corporations who regard me as their customer, have created automated phone systems and created a system of red tape that is worthy of the Kremlin.

    Fair taxation, good social programs, a strong middle class, are what makes the difference between a first world country and a third. Third world policies. Third world.

    In our former social-democracy, you had the right to make money. A lot of money. But, not ALL the money which, in most corporate cases, is not 'made', but rather stolen by using other people's life-energy, and resources god-given to all of us. And, not by poisoning the rivers, destroying the salmon of the West Coast - the life blood of our ecosystem. Not by imprisoning powerless, desperate people in a room paying them nothing and exploiting their life-blood. No.

    Who's initiative is being squashed when a poor child can never get out of his impoverished community to go to a decent school or library? Or, breath clean air? Or, learn empathy and compassion from their community, but instead, be inundated by the steady drum beat of death?
    .
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