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Not Feeling Depressed Enough?

We can fix that problem. First, watch Katy Abram (the woman who told Arlen Specter that she didn’t want the U.S. turned into Russia) being interviewed by Lawrence O’Donnell. Abram appears very nervous, and rightfully so, because she reveals the cavernous depths of her ignorance every time she opens her mouth. And mind you, this is with an interviewer who, although he is asking good, substantive questions, is clearly holding himself back from demolishing her, since she is a private citizen and not a media pundit or a politician.

If this doesn’t make you want to crawl into bed and pull the covers over your head, read all about how Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) succeeded in getting Democrats on the House Finance Committee to agree to pull the fraudulently controversial end-of-life counseling provision from the “compromise” bill — after which, for good measure, he blamed Democrats for said fraudulent controversy:

A day after Patron Saint of Bipartisanship Chuck Grassley seemed to lend support to Sarah Palin’s “death panel” claims, the Senator confirmed that the end of life provision has been dropped from the Senate Finance compromise bill because, he said, it could be “misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly.”

Not only that, but he also directly attacked the House Dem proposal by floating the idea that it leaves end of life issues “open to interpretation.” Here’s Grassley’s statement:

“The bill passed by the House committees is so poorly cobbled together that it will have all kinds of unintended consequences, including making taxpayers fund health care subsidies for illegal immigrants. On the end-of-life issue, there’s a big difference between a simple educational campaign, as some advocates want, and the way the House committee-passed bill pays physicians to advise patients about end of life care and rates physician quality of care based on the creation of and adherence to orders for end-of-life care, while at the same time creating a government-run program that is likely to lead to the rationing of care for everyone.

“On the Finance Committee, we are working very hard to avoid unintended consequences by methodically working through the complexities of all of these issues and policy options. That methodical approach continues. We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly. Maybe others can defend a bill like the Pelosi bill that leaves major issues open to interpretation, but I can’t.”

This is how “bipartisanship” and “compromise” work on health care reform: Far right Republican lawmakers and media stars engage in hysterical tantrums about provisions that either don’t exist or don’t say what the screaming toddlers claim they do — encouraging (at times coming close to inciting) irrational anger and fear in large numbers of Americans who are profoundly, dangerously uninformed about politics, government, and current events — and then use the public uproar that they themselves have manufactured to kill the provisions:

WHEN IN DOUBT, GIVE THE MOB WHAT IT WANTS…. It’s easy to mock the insane rhetoric about “death panels,” but let’s not forget that right-wing activists, by screaming about an imaginary threat, are getting exactly what they want.

Tucked inside a sweeping House bill to overhaul the health system is a provision that would require Medicare to pay physicians to counsel patients once every five years. During those sessions, doctors could discuss how patients can plan for such end-of-life decisions as setting up a living will, obtaining hospice care or establishing a proxy to make their health decisions when they are unable to do so. [...]

[G]rowing complaints over the provision are leading key lawmakers to conclude that the health overhaul should leave out any end-of-life counseling provisions. A group in the Senate Finance Committee that is attempting to craft Congress’s only bipartisan health bill has decided to exclude such a measure, Senate aides said this week. [emphasis added]

Up until very recently, this provision was a common-sense idea that enjoyed bipartisan support. It would help seniors and their families plan for end-of-life care; it would help guide physicians and doctors; it would help save taxpayers money; and it would help honor patients’ wishes. Even insurance companies are fine with it.

But after a right-wing temper tantrum, based on confusion and lies, lawmakers are prepared to dump the idea altogether.

Who wins? Unhinged activists, who are effectively being told that they’ll get their way if they scream loud enough. Who loses? Everyone else.

  • DanDierdorf
    Disgusting, as usual. Gingrich and Rove have a lot to answer for.
  • elrod
    Katy Abram is not exactly a humble private citizen who got involved in politics for the first time because of the health care debate.

    She's a full-on Glenn Beck 9-12er and has been since well before the health care debate kicked off. She's organized conservative meetings since 2006 when the Democrats took Congress. She's an activist and should be treated as such.

    If the Right is going to get upset over a little girl asking why people are so mean - when the girl's mother backed Obama for President - what are we to make of this woman who has ORGANIZED 9-12/tea party rallies in Lebanon, PA well before the health care debates began?

    She sounds more like the woman from Green Bay who called herself "just a mom" but was actually a major official in the county GOP.
  • daveinboca
    If the Right is going to get upset over a little girl asking why people are so mean - when the girl's mother backed Obama for President

    Elrod, the mom was a senior MA state Democrat official... Her daughter "just happened" to get the mike and even the Boston Globe, for chrissakes, called Obama's orcs on that one!

    Obama & ObamaCare's numbers are sinking like a stone, just like your arguments and those of KKK. The American people are rejecting lying elitist suck-ups and are rejecting the Craigslist OPR DNC cadres with the mass-produced placards who are Obama's Shock Troopers at the town hall meetings. The SEIU Brownshirts and the AFL/CIO Blackshirts right out of Goldberg's Liberal Fascism!

    And DanD, Reid and Pelosi are going to answer with their jobs in November, 2010.

    Ha ha ha
  • Kastanj
    "just like your arguments and those of KKK."

    This some new kind of Godwin? Understandable - the right is so intellectually and morally decrepit that it has taken mere months to go through every scary word in the book - "socialist" and "nazi" must have gotten boring, so now we resort to associating "ObamaCare" (another word that could only be taken seriously by the uselessly stupid) with the KKK.

    The democrats really need to impose reform on people like you. Seeing as you see yourselves as informed citizens, a declaration of your unfitness to steer your country with anything but your votes is in order. There are so few untainted hearts and minds for the DNC to reach out to. Instead, they should play dirty, ignore the shortsighted populace who sway like straw in response to the media and any rumormongering and just realize that most of the people who oppose reform don't deserve to be taken seriously. I'd rather have top-down elitism than a total destruction of meritocracy. The intellectual relativism in America has gone too far.
  • daveinboca
    Go back to the hellhole where you were born. Craigslist has a job for green card morons like yourself.

    Let's see, Pelosi calls protestors at town hall meetings "swastika-wavers" and a creepy Mormon Senator from NV calls them "evil-mongers" and moral lepers like yourself insist that any response is "decrepit?"
    Hillary Clinton was screaming last year that protest was super-patriotic and Obama was prating about "Speaking Truth to Power" and now that they're in the Politburo, they're telling their cadres and MVD types to get people to "snitch" to the White House at Flag@whitehouse.gove about false rumors?

    You are a hypocrite and a fool, K-man. Go back where you came from!

    You should have something else imposed on yourself, much nastier than "reform."
  • kathykattenburg
    She's a full-on Glenn Beck 9-12er and has been since well before the health care debate kicked off.

    I actually didn't know that. Thank you, Elrod.
  • Kastanj
    "Pelosi calls protestors at town hall meetings "swastika-wavers""

    Spot on.

    "creepy Mormon Senator from NV calls them "evil-mongers""

    All of them? He used that word in context to people who use "lies, innuendo and rumor," to drown out rational debate. Not all town-hall protesters are like that - why do you lump them all together under Reid's umbrella? This is just like the NHS report - it details the danger of right-wing extremists, and lo and behold every right-winger screams about how they are the ones targeted. Well now, apparently, every town-hall protester uses "lies, innuendo and rumor," to drown out rational debate. Thanks for clearing that up, you wannabe-martyr.

    " moral lepers like yourself insist that any response is "decrepit?""

    There you go again, mister! I said that you'd have to be completely devoid of soul and mind to have gone so far that you need to bring the KKK into a discussion like this. Are you honestly so stubborn that you're going to disagree with me on that?

    "Hillary Clinton was screaming last year that protest was super-patriotic"

    Protesting will always be legal and defended as a right. It's just that people like you dare to compare your tantrums and completely fictional petty grievances to the informed and intellectually sound opposition to the insane invasion of Iraq. Some protesting is an expression of thought and education, some protesting is an expression of the lack thereof. The behavior of the right in general manages to be even more partisan and much less informed than that of the anti-Bush left - you don't deserve to compare yourselves to the anti-Bush crowd.

    "now that they're in the Politburo"

    You think anyone cares if you're afraid of the scary communists? Your concerns and fears are just self-indulgent figments of your imagination - you know nothing of political oppression, obviously. If you want to run into the woods screaming "Wolverines!" no one should stop you.

    "they're telling their cadres and MVD types to get people to "snitch" to the White House at Flag@whitehouse.gove about false rumors?"

    A completely unthreatening measure. People who mock the very idea of an informed populace deserve to be listed, mocked and debunked in a systematic manner. That's exactly the kind of intellectual contempt for plebeian and partisan ramblings that America needs.

    "You should have something else imposed on yourself, much nastier than "reform.""

    No, I'm a good person with a better grasp of the reform issue than, say, nine tenths of your ilk. The only thing that matters is votes, and the democrats know that if they pass reform all the self-aggrandizing weeping and shouting will have been for nothing. The town-hall protestors don fancy garb that doesn't fit them and fantasize about being just like brave freedom-fighters of yore. Of course, they can't name any such freedom fighter, but they think their screaming about socialism and "gimme my country back" will send them into Reagan's embrace in the afterlife, so screw everybody else. A conspiracy of dunces is what it is - reform needs to be imposed not only because it is an issue that needs to be resolved, but also because there are so many republicans who can't handle losing and need to be put in their place.
  • elrod
    DaveinBoca is a lurking troll who comes out once a month or so. He's never contributed anything meaningful to any discussion at TMV.
  • EEllis
    Well unlike your comment about him he has at least addressed the post in some way. your comment is entirely a personal attack.
  • kathykattenburg
    Calling DaveinBoca a "lurking troll" is more of a personal attack than referring to my initials as KKK? Repeatedly?
  • JSpencer
    DaveinBoca is a lurking troll . . . He's never contributed anything meaningful to any discussion at TMV. - elrod

    A fact which has been made abundantly clear time after time. His dynamic does fit the subject though: All heat and no light. . . to put it generously.
  • CStanley
    I'll never understand the TMV rules of engagement. Apparently the bloggers and editors are permitted to personally insult commenters but not vice versa.
  • JSpencer
    CStanley, it may not be your intent to function as an apologist for a childish poster who engages in Nazi references and who refers to one of the authors here as "KKK", but that could easily be the perception.
  • CStanley
    JSpencer- No, that's not my intention at all. I'm not specifically fond of Daveinboca's style at all but lots of commenters use tone and style that I find irritating, offensive, and/or generally not constructive. I find it a bit unseemly though for an editor to enter into the comment thread with an insult like that- not, mind you, a gentle admonition but a personal insult, which would clearly violate the terms that the editing team has set for its readers. To me, that's a case of having one set of rules for the commenters but then the editors can violate them. If Daveinboca violates the rules by namecalling, he should be called out for it- but my opinion is that the editors shouldn't use namecalling themselves in responding to those kinds of comments.
  • EEllis
    I personally think Daveinboca comes off as a nut. My point was that his insults were in a comment that however loony were responding to and about the Post. Elrod's comment was a simple condemnation without any content.
  • EEllis
    "Calling DaveinBoca a "lurking troll" is more of a personal attack than referring to my initials as KKK? Repeatedly?"

    Nope and if you called him that in refuting his comment I would of said nothing. I just think if the only thing you say is an insult with nothing on topic then .............
    And I would say that regardless of the political leanings of the person commenting.
  • First and foremost, EVERYONE (including TMV writers) need to take a serious chill pill with the rhetoric in comments.

    Secondly, CStanley, TMV isn't my (or the two other moderators) full time job. So we miss things. We try to do our best at "policing" but inevitably, certain comments fall through the cracks.

    And the whole insult angle is wearing me down. We get roughly 75+ e-mails a day from readers saying they are insulted by a comment and/or post. So we can't win on this. All I can say is that WE ALL NEED TO BRING THE TONE DOWN. Now TMV isn't as bad as many other blogs in terms of comment "behavior" but it's getting worse.

    Can we all just get along in rhetoric tone??
  • CStanley
    T- sorry, I didn't mean to stress you. I've been in the role of comment moderation before and I know it's really tiresome, and you can't please everyone all the time.

    I really wasn't calling for you to take any action here except for the editors generally to reflect on whether or not they're living up to the standards that they set for the readers, since my comment was in response to Elrod using a personal insult to put down a commenter (deserved or not, is besides the point IMO.)

    I do agree, BTW, that from time to time the insults seem to flare up and get ratcheted up- and that seems to be happening lately. It's just my opinion that it doesn't help matters when the frontpagers get into the fray.
  • HemmD
    Look

    People from time to time get agitated. I understand that emotional response in a heated debate. Old DaveinBoca, however, insists on personal ridicule from the get go of his entries. I'm not sure what good bomb throwing from either side actually accomplishes.

    I do know it does not add to the discussion that most all here want to have. If you want to throw bombs, go to a web site that is either far left or far right and bomb away. I believe the fact that this site appears dedicated to the proposition that both sides have legitimate contributions to make.

    I for one would suggest an informal banning, just don't respond to those who believe insults are debating points.
    Maybe just a one-word response - BOMBER - would make the point especially if three or four people made that reply. T-Steel certainly doesn't need to police the commenters when others could do the same. Maybe that's a little too cute an idea. Maybe not.
    IMO
  • mlhradio
    >>I personally think Daveinboca comes off as a nut.

    As with most discussion threads here on TMV, this has once again turned from a discussion about the topic into a discussion about the discussion.

    Personally, I think when the discussion turns from actual substance to name-calling and personal insults, the best course of action is completely ignoring the offending commenter. Let them put their own feet in their own mouth, no need to help them look like cranks or loons, when they are doing a fine job by themselves.
  • kathykattenburg
    I think HemmD's points are very well-taken, and I also want to say I think T-Steel and the other administrators here, very much including TMV's owner, Joe Gandelman, are doing a tremendous job under very trying circumstances, and they deserve everyone's appreciation.
  • archangel
    Your many comments here deserve a bit more... I''m going to flesh it out a bit more to try to answer some of our commenters questions here. I cannot answer all of them in depth, but will say that valid concerns about various are reviewed by admin, most often before we hear from commenters by email. That's ongoing.

    re commenters. I reiterate because we have so many new commenters. The 'old hands' already know all this. We have asked commenters to help us keep TMV a place for civil discussion. We will continue to do that. The commenting rules which are at the top of the page say how to. Please read them if you have not.

    We value our commenters and 99.99% of commenters follow the TMV policies which were designed for civil debate and discussion.

    For those who are not aware, the layout is this. A commenter who attacks and name calls writers or other commenters, hijacks the discussion to revolve around themselves instead of the topic, floods with advertising, spam, or long comments of pages' length, will be asked to stop, just simply to follow the rules of the site.

    My experience as an editor, is that once reminded of rules and asked to pull back, most any commenter will, and often with generous apology on their part. The apology is not necessary but it is often public, and a part of being civil to other commenters. However, if a commenter cannot stop, they will be asked again to act within the rules that all other commenters are following at TMV.

    If they still cannot stop after warnings, and they continue to use language outlined as unacceptable re TMV written policies, attack writers or other commenters, attempt to use the articles for centering on themselves, etc., they will banned. This process is clearly stated in commenting rules.

    None of us who are editors here can be at the computer full time to moderate, edit, etc. those who we hope come to discuss, debate in good faith and in decent enough good will. It's not that we cant; we dont want to have to. Rather give good faith that people will abide one another.

    There are literally thousands of other news/politico sites where people can bash each other in a circular firing range until they all tire or go away, if that is what a person wishes/ needs/ wants.

    TMV is, like a handful of other sites across the web, an outpost where we hope to hold to a standard of respect for others points of views, and if we disagree, to put forth our facts and discuss. Personally I've been proud of the respectful ways most of our posters reply to persons they disagree with intensely. That's not a 'good boy/ good girl' star. I receive email from people from other media who read TMV saying what a great model for others most of the commenters put forth here.

    It is easy to note too, that as the public television and radio news has risen into higher than usual screech level recently, that a very few commenters seem to think that tossing off that all others are idiots, fools, and other words that derogate, is somehow discussing/ debating issues.

    It isnt. Most of the time, other commenters reading such toss-offs stop reading the commenter who says 'all so-and-sos are idiots and varaious x words'. How do I know? Because they tell me by email. Commenters also mention hating to scroll through long strings of comments that are essentially invective between two people, often 'started' by one, and the other responds to defend.

    Discussion/ debate/ forming opinion, means presenting ideas and facts and saying why one thinks as one does, and saying it with whatever passion one carries. The TMV rules are slim, but make it so people can be civil--- and strong in what they have to say in endless ways

    I'd add one other note: websites like TMV where there are a dedicated core of writers who work hard daily to bring stories, and who receive no pay, -- and as you see, we are all famous... for probably not paying our parking tickets on time more than anything, or constantly running out of food and eating that ten year old can of olives til we can find time to get to the store-- like our commenters, we all have families, children, ailing family members, grandchildren who have needs, day jobs... all the matters of life that most commenters have too

    That's one of the reasons TMV has commenters' rules... so we can hold in good faith that commenters will abide by those well thought out policies, so that we-- and you-- do not have to take precious time reminding or watching over... so we can all do what we came to TMV for... to think, gather, write, be community of odd and very often interesting and inspiring people who learn from each other, act as emery against each others world views, and who ultimately clarify what each thinks, also.

    The emails we editors receive are often enough about good things, and we appreciate those (hint hint) .... but if it's bash and trash of others a person wants, in terms of interactions with our commenters or with our writers, TMV isnt set up for backyard unsupervised 'fight club'. Nor will it be.

    with kindest regards,
    dr.e
    (You can, if you wish, write to me projectscreener@aol.com. I may not be able to answer immediately but I will try to as soon as I can. I'm running as fast as I can. This addy is screened for spam, the few four letter and compound words one might hear on gangsta rap for instance, and will dump those emails automatically.)
  • D. E.Rodriguez
    dr e.:

    As one of those "(dedicated) core of writers who work hard daily to bring stories, and who receive no pay, -- and as you see, we are all famous... for probably not paying our parking tickets on time more than anything, or constantly running out of food and eating that ten year old can of olives til we can find time to get to the store-- like our commenters, we all have families, children, ailing family members, grandchildren who have needs, day jobs... all the matters of life that most commenters have too," thank you for both motivating our valued readers to be more cool and our fellow writers to continue to be underpaid and hopefully appreciated.

    Dorian
  • lurxst
    Back on topic here: A nice little tidbit to make "deather" republican heads 'splode.

    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/senate-republ...

    A nice list of the Republicans who voted for End of Life Planning/Counseling, er.. death panels, back in 2003 before they had to derail healthcare reform.
  • kathykattenburg
    I'll never understand the TMV rules of engagement. Apparently the bloggers and editors are permitted to personally insult commenters but not vice versa.

    As one of the TMV bloggers who has occasionally fallen into that error, I can tell you unequivocally that you are flat-out wrong, Christine.
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