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THE U.S. CONSTITUTION NEEDS AMENDING – AND FAST

On 8/9/09 Alec MacGillis in the Washington Post outlined one of the largest problems today in our Constitution that distorts the legislative process and often thwarts the will of a large majority of Americans. The composition of the U.S. Senate permits several small state Senators to essentially wield excessive power. MacGillis wrote:

“The Senate Finance Committee’s “Gang of Six” that is drafting health-care legislation that may shape the final deal..…represents six states that are among the least populous in the country: Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, Maine, New Mexico and Iowa.
Between them, those six states hold 8.4 million people — less than New Jersey — and represent 3 percent of the U.S. population…..In the House, those six states have 13 seats out of 435, 3 percent of the whole. In the Senate, those six members are crafting what may well be the blueprint for [health] reform.
Climate change legislation, which passed in the House, also faces daunting odds. Why? Because agriculture, coal and oil interests hold far more sway in the Senate. In the House, the big coal state of Wyoming has a single vote to New York’s 29 and California’s 53. In the Senate, each state has two. The two Dakotas (total population: 1.4 million) together have twice as much say in the Senate as does Florida (18.3 million) or Texas (24.3 million) or Illinois (12.9 million).”

We unfortunately need 4 new Constitutional Amendments to fix this and other affronts to our system of one-man-one-vote representative democracy and to address three other serious long-term Constitutional problems.

A 28th Amendment would change the composition of the Senate to better reflect the relative populations of the 50 states. All states with at least 1 million people but less than 10 million inhabitants would have 2 Senators. States with less than 1 million inhabitants would be allocated only 1 Senator. States will 10 to 20 million people would get 3 Senators, those with 20 to 30 million would get 4 Senators, and so forth.

Reviewing the Census numbers from 2008 and extrapolating the 2010 Census results, this new Senate allocation would still result in about 100 total U.S. Senators. 34 States (68%) would have 2 Senators each since they have between 1 and 10 million inhabitants each. Only 7 states would have 1 Senator each (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming) because they all have less than 1 million people each. 5 states would have 3 Senators each: Florida, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio as they have between 10 and 20 million inhabitants. Texas with about 25 million people would have 4 Senators and California with around 38 million people would have 5 U.S. Senators.

There are 2 states that might change places after the 2010 Census. Michigan has been steadily losing population and is just over 10 million inhabitants. North Carolina which has been steadily gaining population is just under 10 million in habitants. This proposed U.S. Senate allocation would ensure better national representation of all Americans in this very powerful national legislative body.

An additional change to the U.S. Senate would involve the filling of vacancies. To fill a vacant seat, a new election would have to be scheduled by the State’s Governor within 3 to 6 months from the date of any vacancy. The winner would take office within a week from the certification of the election results. No more political appointments would be allowed as was proven to be a real political fiasco in several states after the 2008 elections.

Finally, all laws passed by the Senate would only require the consent of a majority, or 1 vote more than half of the total Senators elected, provided a quorum were established. The filibuster should be prohibited. This would not change the two-thirds majority votes required for judicial appointments, treaty ratifications, or other specific matters listed in the Constitution. The President of the Senate (The Vice-President) would be able to cast a vote at any time on any vote, not just when the Senate is equally divided as it stands under current law.

In addition, we should admit Puerto Rico with about 4 million U.S. Citizens as a state and merge the 2 Dakotas (with just under 1.5 million total people) so we can still retain the magic number of 50 states. If the 2 Dakotas merged simultaneously with Puerto Rico Statehood, it would be a political wash in the Senate as the new State of Dakota would have 2 Senators (1.5 million people total) and Puerto Rico with 4 million people would also get 2 Senators. Alternatively, the residents of the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico could vote for complete independence.

Washington DC should revert back to Maryland, as did part of the Federal District to Virginia during and after the Civil War. Only a small geographic area surrounding the National Mall and including most Prominent Federal Government Buildings (including the Capitol, the White House, Supreme Court, Library of Congress, the Smithsonian, and most Federal Department headquarters) would be part of the Federal District for Congressional Administration. It is an affront to representational democracy that over 600,000 residents of the District of Columbia have no Congressional representation.

A 29th Amendment would increase the U.S. House of Representatives from 435 to a total of 777 members who would all serve 4-year terms, with one-half (½) of the House up for election every 2 years. It would become a continuous legislative body as is the Senate where only a third of Senators are up for election every 2 years. Each state would still have at least one Representative as provided by the Constitution. Actually any number between 500 and 1,000 would work so long as it becomes too expensive to bribe enough Members of Congress to influence important legislation.

Of all modern democracies, the U.S. has the most people allocated per federal legislative district (between 525,000 and 700,000 each) compared to most other countries which have less than 250,000 people per national assembly seat. These changes would significantly reduce the perpetual campaigning and fundraising that consumes more than half the time of our U.S. Representatives who must stand for election every other year. They may also increase direct voter access to their Congressional representatives and limit the power of a few well-moneyed campaign contributors.

Another change for the U.S. House would require that all Congressional Districts be determined by a bi-partisan commission appointed by Congress after the results of each Census are announced and certified. Districts would be based upon contiguous geographic entities without regards to the demographics, politics, economics, races, creeds, colors, religions or national origins of the inhabitants. This would actually return Congressional districts to the geographic basis of the original Constitution rather than the strange-shaped gerrymandered districts we have seen for the past 30 years. There should be no safe Democratic or Republican seats that reflect extreme gerrymandered partisan groupings of voters.

A 30th Amendment would eliminate the Electoral College and have the President and Vice-President elected by direct popular vote. In this manner, all candidates would have to campaign in every state and not just “battleground” ones, because one could never tell where the winning votes might come from. No state or large groups of the electorate would be disregarded as being safely in the Blue or Red camps as occurred for all of the Presidential contests since 1996.

A 31st Amendment would define and limit “person” for all Constitutional and legal purposes to natural born human beings. It would not attempt to define the beginning or end of human life, as that would be left to each state, or to future generations through legislative enactments. This is not a proposal to address abortion, euthanasia, or marriage, which could properly be the subjects of other Amendments. Most importantly the definition of “Person” would exclude all business, social, labor, or other organizations, including corporations, partnerships, companies, LLCs, foundations, Unions and all government-created “legal fictions.” This clear definition is particularly important for defining whose speech and civil liberties are to be legally protected and who may give money to political organizations and individual campaigns. Business entities, trade organizations and other legal fictions should be protected under the 5th Amendment and other specifically enumerated and reasonably related Constitutional protections but they should not be equated with living individuals. This was a serious interpretive mistake from several past U.S. Supreme Court decisions that must be rectified to reassert the authority of people over corporations.

With the requirement that Constitutional Amendments be approved by three-quarters (75%) of the states, the chances of passage may be decent for most of these 4 proposed Amendments. 82 percent of the states would retain 2 Senators or actually gain a few Senators. All states would likely see an increase in the number of Congressional districts instead of about a third losing seats if the House remains fixed at 435 members and the 2010 Census requires reapportionment. Finally, every state would probably like to be an equal focus of future Presidential elections instead of limiting the battlegrounds to fewer than 10 states.

Alternatively we could instead just add a fourth branch of government to reflect political and economic reality. This branch would have absolute veto power over the other three (Legislative, Executive and Judiciary). It would consist of permanent appointed representatives of all major U.S. corporations (including multinationals) that have at least $1 billion in total annual revenues as per their most recently filed federal tax returns. The make-up of this group would change a bit from year to year but essentially it is a pretty solid club. That way the rest of the government would not depend upon campaign contributions from this group of wealthy corporations, but they would face the normal reality of being wholly subservient to them. Full transparency and honesty would finally be achieved – even if the reality would not be so pleasant. The proposed 4 Amendment discussed above would go a long way towards reversing the ongoing surreptitious takeover of our country by large business interests.

As always, I welcome reader comments. – 8/11/09 by Marc Pascal in Phoenix, AZ.

  • PJBFan
    This post disturbs me in ways I cannot even begin to count. It shows, it seems to me, profound lack of awareness regarding the institutions of our government, and the purpose of each provision in the Constitution. However, within the poorly designed plans, there are some good points.

    Let's start with the proposed 28th Amendment. The Senate was not designed to be representative of the People, but to give equal voice to the equal states. In the eyes of the Framers, Rhode Island was equal to New York, separate, independent, and co-equal in power. The Senate was designed to represent the States, and was supposed to be a check against the mob rule that ran then, and continues to run, the US House. This proposed Amendment completely eviscerates the equality of the States, and sets up for the Senate a modified form of mob rule. As to appointments of Senators, actually, the 17th Amendment, allowing direct election of Senators, should be repealed because it represents another step towards mob rule instead of the limited Republic upon which we were founded.

    Now, onto the 29th Amendment. This is the bright spot in the proposed set of Amendments, and one I could wholeheartedly support, although I would suggest that the number of districts be even further increased, perhaps up as far as a thousand. I do think that banning gerrymandering is a wise idea, and keeping districts geographically contiguous is a wise idea. It is time to overturn bad Warren/Burger Court Precedent that requires that districts be designed to ensure that minorities are represented specially. Of course, I would also propose that such districts would force a drastic cut in pay, and a severely reduced schedule for the House.

    Onto the proposed 30th Amendment. This destruction of the electoral college, to me, damages one of the most important checks on popular power. The electoral college gives voice, first, to smaller states, as a protection so that Wyoming and Delaware do not always fall victim to the whims of New York and Texas, and second, to the State Governments themselves. Nothing actually requires a popular vote, and, should any State so desire, they could remove the Popular Vote option, and have, say, the Governor pick the slate of Electors. The Electoral College gives power to the States, not to the people. It represents a check on the people. The House of Representatives, that is the People's check.

    Finally, for the 31st Amendment, it makes quite difficult the function of the courts, because it removes from the courts the ability to determine how their jurisdiction works.

    As it stands, these planned Amendments represent a desecration of the checks and balances that our Founders set up, and should be wholeheartedly rejected as anathema to the Constitution.
  • ElPincho
    Statehood for Puerto Rico NOW!!!
  • superdestroyer
    These proposals are meant to lock in the Democratic Party advantage. It creates two very liberal Senators from Puerto Rico that has a per capita income about half that of Mississippi. It would produce five very liberal Senators from California instead of just the two now. It would produce most seats for liberal Democrats. Do your really want 777 Congressmen inserting pork barrel ear marks in the budget.

    As a counter. How about a constitutional amendment that says that no state can receive more in government spending than it pays in taxes. That would hurt both Republicans and Democrats and would make every Senator and Rep aware that earmarks for his district will be taken out of some other spending.
  • jeainnj
    These are extremely dangerous proposals which fundamentally undermine the intent of the founders.
  • Don Quijote
    A) What is so magical about 50 States? What is wrong with 51, 52 or 55 States?
    B) 777 congressman? why? why not simply determine the number of congresspeople at the end of every census by having a rule that defines a ratio of population per congresspeople? lets say 1 congressperson per 1/4 million residents. Using this ratio,in 2000 with a population of 300 million we would end up with 1200 congresspeople. If in 2050 our population grows to 400 million we would have 1600 congresspeople.

    Actually any number between 500 and 1,000 would work so long as it becomes too expensive to bribe enough Members of Congress to influence important legislation.


    It's never too expensive to bribe a congresscritter...

    As you can tell by reading SuperDestroyer's comment, this will never happen. If you think the Right Wing is going nuts over health-care reform, imagine what they would do if you actually tried to pass any of the these amendments.
  • Don Quijote
    Let's start with the proposed 28th Amendment. The Senate was not designed to be representative of the People, but to give equal voice to the equal states. In the eyes of the Framers, Rhode Island was equal to New York, separate, independent, and co-equal in power. The Senate was designed to represent the States, and was supposed to be a check against the mob rule that ran then, and continues to run, the US House. This proposed Amendment completely eviscerates the equality of the States, and sets up for the Senate a modified form of mob rule. As to appointments of Senators, actually, the 17th Amendment, allowing direct election of Senators, should be repealed because it represents another step towards mob rule instead of the limited Republic upon which we were founded.


    We could replace that amendment with one that forces states to have a minimum ratio of population (1%) and a maximum ratio of population (5%). For example if a State had a population of less than 3 Million, it would lose it's Statehood Status and become a US Territory or merges with a contiguous State, if it had a population of over 15 Million, it would be forced to split in two or more States.
  • The constitution was made to be a living document, not something set in stone. The founding fathers certainly didn't expect things to stay stagnant so long after their passing and after so many advances. They understood that things would change society fundamentally over time and that the constitution would have to evolve to survive. They didn't see themselves as prophets whose words, ideas and opinions should be treated as divine truth, so I don't get all this *the founding fathers meant it to be a certain way, so any opinion that disagrees is wrong* attitude.
    If we want to improve our government and our society as a whole, we cannot just stick to arguments over what the founding fathers would or would not do. We won't advance with that attitude and will quickly be surpassed by other nations who are not locked into the ideas of the past.
    Personally, I think we should do away with the senate entirely and head towards a more parliamentary system. Would allow for more parties, more ideas and better representation. And don't argue nothing would ever get done, because that seems to be what is happening now. Plus, it is unlikely one party would have a total monopoly of power, but it would force more compromise on legislation for all involved.
  • Don Quijote
    These are extremely dangerous proposals which fundamentally undermine the intent of the founders.

    The intent of the founders was undermined a long time ago, first by the railroad, the telegraph, the telephone, the automobile, the airplane and then the internet.
  • dogjudge
    Undermining the intent of the founding fathers?

    Sorry, but for those folks who feel this way, need a lesson in history. I can't remember what the original number was for representation in the House, but I want to say that it was about 60,000. The number is immaterial. The idea was that EVERY state had representatives that represented about an equal number of people.

    Are you aware of the fact that the number of representatives was LIMITED to 435 in about 1911. Since then the number has remained the same. Once that occurred, SMALL states gained a DISPROPORTIONATE representation. As noted by the author, SMALL states have a representative for about every 500,000 people whereas large states get ONE for about every 725,000 people. Sorry, but that means that EVERY SMALL state is getting 1.5 votes for every large state. HOW is that fair? THAT was NEVER intended.

    The idea of having consistency about replacing Federally elected officials becomes a states rights versus Federal issue.

    I like the idea (living in Illinois although I lean Democrat). REPUBLICANS were up in arms when Illinois' governor and the governor of New Hampshire appointed (about to appoint) Democrats. All we heard was how there should be special elections. Gee, I wonder why? If nothing else, there should be some consistency to the process.

    I totally agree about eliminating the electoral college. Especially if the representative portion would not change. Again, the smaller states currently wield way too much power in the election of the President versus the large states. There is absolutely no reason why the election of the President shouldn't be based on one person, one vote.

    I'm tired of folks in Montana wielding a disproportionate amount of power.
  • casualobserver
    You guys should knock off a few items from the existing list of pipe dreams before adding to it. Finish prosecuting Bush and Cheney for war crimes and then get back to us.
  • Silhouette
    I tend on the one hand to like the idea. On the other hand the timing is absurd. Then the lunatic right would really need medicating..lol..

    If you want a new Amendment, just pass a guarantee of health care for the public, like a protective mandate that the military is that guards citizen life. Think of pathogens and disease like Al Qaida. We need protection from the enemy. All of us should have that guaranteed.

    That sort of skips to the real issue.

    The nut-job right will be doing great if their fragile mental states can handle just the little change Obama Administration has on the table to correct the Cheneyco problems they were left with. You do too much too soon and there will be no bridge wide enough to span the rift.
  • Dave_Schuler
    As has been suggested above the purpose of the Senate is to represent states equally. The situation that's being complained about isn't a corruption of the design it is the design.

    Let me propose two significantly simpler solutions for those who believe there is a problem.

    First, we could abolish the Senate. If the Senate is to become a body that is numerically representative, it's redundant. Get rid of it.

    Another alternative would be to amend the Constitution to

    1) provide a fixed constituency size for Congressional districts (this would cause the size of the House to rise over time) and

    2) require the legislature of any state whose Congressional delegation had reached some threshold size to divide the state into two (or more) new states. Each of the successor states would have its own House delegation and two Senate seats.
  • jeainnj
    I'm just leery of making such dramatic changes to a system that has worked pretty well for almost 2-1/2 centuries. The simplest, most effective, and least complicated way to do that would be changing the lengths of Congressional terms and imposing term limits.
  • HemmD
    I believe the effects of each of these proposals can be accomplished with just one new amendment.
    Eliminate all but symbolic lobbying monies paid to any who run for or hold office. By amendment, no one person or organization could contribute more than $100 to any politician. The argument that donations are a matter of free speech is ridiculous. It's equivalent to saying the use of megaphones by one side in a debate is fair.

    It's not a matter of the number of senators or representatives, it is a matter of the legalized bribery that currently makes representation of the people's will impossible. No one can say with a straight face that 100s of thousands of dollars paid by business sectors or even individuals doesn't have a skewing effect on our democratic process.

    Lobbying buys access, and regular payments buys loyalty. Remove payola from the process. Make legislatures make decisions based upon the merits of their arguments, not the size of the bribe.
  • tidbits
    HIstorically, the device of equal Senate representation was a tactic to persuade some of the smaller colonies to join the union. In that context, it can be argued that the device is anachronistic in 21st century America. However, it is a well entrenched anachronism and is unlikely to rescinded or modified where 75% of the states must approve its recission or modification.

    Requiring special elections to fill vacancies, all vacancies not just in the Senate, is an idea whose time has come. Personally, I would prefer that the federal government propose a "Uniform Election Code", like the Uniform Commercial Code, to be adopted separately by the various states, rather than using a Constitutional Amendment. Such a uniform code could also include uniform, fair voter registration and vote compilation mechanisms and procedures, instead of being limited to vacancy filling requirements. And, it would have the added advantage of being adjustable in the future, by legislative change, to accommodate new technology.

    Your proposed increase in the number of House Representatives can be thrown in the nearest lake, heavily weighted with hardened concrete. This group, Congress, can't order a pizza with the 435 members it has. Doubling that number would make the process of getting anything meaningful passed impossible. The functions of Congress would be performed exclusively by permanent staff and party discipline. We're close enough to that already. The benefit of reducing bribery is an illusion. Lobbyists already bribe thousands at the state and federal level. Adding a few hundred more won't change that.

    The Electoral College was conceived as a device to preserve influence in the hands of the powerful. It has served us poorly from Andrew Jackson's first presidential run to the present. It comes from the same mindset that originally limited voting rights to male land owners. Unfortunately, smaller states see it as a repository of their power, and 75% is unlikely in a 50 state vote.

    Whatever happens with Puerto Rico should be up to the people of Pueto Rico. Period.

    As for Constitutionally redefining "person", that is a minefield, subject to all manner of manipulation and obfuscation. For all the talk that it would not impact abortion, euthanasia, etc,...it will, and all the proponents/opponents would be out in force to configure the language to their purpose. Let the Supreme Court, in its own tortoise like way, consider and decide how to expand the distinction between individual speech and commercial speech.

    The elimination of gerrymandering is probably the best of the ideas, though this too could be incorporated in a Uniform Election Code adopted by the states rather than be imposed by the Feds.

    I applaud the effort to think of ways to uncorrupt our system. But, the uncorrupting of our governmental system requires not so much the amendment of the Constitution as it does courage in the (human) constitution of our elected leaders. And, that is sorely lacking.
  • shannonlee
    " believe the effects of each of these proposals can be accomplished with just one new amendment.
    Eliminate all but symbolic lobbying monies paid to any who run for or hold office. By amendment, no one person or organization could contribute more than $100 to any politician. The argument that donations are a matter of free speech is ridiculous. It's equivalent to saying the use of megaphones by one side in a debate is fair."

    THANK YOU!!!

    That kids is the fastest way to fix our broken system.
  • jeainnj
    We're not talking about technology changing. We're talking about a radical departure from a system of government we've had for 200+ years. I don't believe such radical changes are required.

    The idea of 2 houses was division of power. The Senate would check the big states and the House would check the small ones. The difference is now we have career politicians - that is what the founders didn't foresee. You address that simply - with terms limits. Most states already have them. The President is term-limited. That is what will limit people like Jesse Helms, Ted Kennedy and Ted Stevens from accumulating too much power to themselves.

    The practical matter of this is that none of the states - either controlled by Republicans or Democrats - will give up their right to determine how someone gets to Washington. Nor are they going to willingly give up seats. You can debate this proposal in theory all you want, but in practicality it would be DOA on the hill.

    Term limits are a much more reasonable and realistically achievable goal.
  • AustinRoth
    The balance of a Representative House vs. a State-apportioned Senate is the backbone of the whole legislative branch's internal structure and checks and balance.

    If you are going to eliminate two different apportionments, and simply go on population, why not just propose a single Legislative body? What then would be the purpose of a bicameral legislation at all?

    And then, from this single ruling Politburo (just to coin a name), why not simply have them elect a Premier, rather than going to the bother and expense of a Presidential election?
  • Don Quijote
    Term limits are a much more reasonable and realistically achievable goal.


    Term limits is a good way to guarantee that the elected official's political director/legislative secretary will be the real power in the legislature, he'll be there when the official gets elected and will still be there when the official is forced out of his seat, he will know where all the bodies are buried and where all the levers of power are.

    Can you think of any state that has term limits in which the legislature has become more competent?

    The difference is now we have career politicians

    ROTFLMAO...

    Like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton & John Quincy Adams were not career politicians.
  • Don Quijote
    And then, from this single ruling Politburo (just to coin a name), why not simply have them elect a Premier, rather than going to the bother and expense of a Presidential election?


    I believe the technical term is a Parliament and it's a system of government used by many if not most democracies at the present time.
  • AustinRoth
    DQ -

    Duh. I was being snarky.

    In the future when I reply to your posts I will try to use smaller words and simpler concepts, and avoid anything that requires a sense of humor, to make sure you keep up.

    No Child Left Behind!

    :)

    p.s. - That, too, was a snark. Just keeping you in the loop!
  • Dr J
    DQ: "Can you think of any state that has term limits in which the legislature has become more competent?"

    Not California. Legislators can serve a maximum of 3 two-year terms. And by coincidence, the only fixes to our long term financial problems the legislature hatches amount to kicking the problems down the road for two, four, maybe six years.
  • Dr J
    HemmD: "The argument that donations are a matter of free speech is ridiculous. It's equivalent to saying the use of megaphones by one side in a debate is fair."

    So you're proposing to take away the megaphones of environmental lobby groups, consumer advocacy organizations, and all the other ways citizens organize behind causes they support?

    Hemm, you're mistaken about the basic essence of government. It's not a planeload of "public interests" that gets hijacked by special interests, it's a boxing ring in which special interests duke it out. Every single one of them represents some interest of some slice of the public, and everything they want will come at the expense of something someone else wants. The "public interest" as you're used to thinking of it doesn't exist.
  • paulfairvote
    We don't agree with all of this, but we certainly agree with putting an end to the Electoral College and electing the president by national popular vote, and there is a movement within the states to do that without amending the constitution: www.nationalpopularvote.com. We're also down with voting rights for DC.
  • AustinRoth
    electing the president by national popular vote

    Just sum total? Make sure that almost all future Presidents are elected by the citizens of maybe 10 - 12 high-population states?

    No thank you.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    " So you're proposing to take away the megaphones of environmental lobby groups, consumer advocacy organizations, and all the other ways citizens organize behind causes they support?"

    I believe I stated clearly that no donations be greater than $100. Megaphones are for mob control, not legislative debate. The groups you cite could still petition their legislator just like ordinary citizens, the difference would be that they could no longer bribe that legislator with big fat checks that collected from an industry wanting to cut a special tax loop hole or no bid contract. People's concerns would ride upon the logic of their argument and strength of their logic, not the size of their wallet.

    "It's not a planeload of "public interests" that gets hijacked by special interests, it's a boxing ring in which special interests duke it out."

    Nice mythic explanation. The fact is that our current laws get chock full of exceptions for a simple reason, specific groups provide enough free money to congressional members.
    You can verify this in the current health care debate very simply. Create a list of those in Congress opposing a public option, and check out how much each of these opponents has received from health care interest groups.

    " The "public interest" as you like to think of it doesn't exist."


    The public interest is the reason for our government. Our past conversations have demonstrated that you may not believe that. You and I have disagreed about health care because you believe health care is a business that must be protected. I believe health care is a human right in which the government should have an interest. You and I may continue to disagree, but that's not the debate that's occurring in Washington.

    An easy way to see the truth of my position, check out how many politicians have changed their stance on a given piece of legislation only after they have announced they are retiring. Suddenly, they take the opposite position simply because they need neither the money nor good graces of the lobbyists who have paid for their re-elections.

    By removing lobbyist money, the legislative process could be driven by "the public interest," not the bottom line in a political war chest.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    " So you're proposing to take away the megaphones of environmental lobby groups, consumer advocacy organizations, and all the other ways citizens organize behind causes they support?"

    I believe I stated clearly that no donations be greater than $100. Megaphones are for mob control, not legislative debate. The groups you cite could still petition their legislator just like ordinary citizens, the difference would be that they could no longer bribe that legislator with big fat checks that collected from an industry wanting to cut a special tax loop hole or no bid contract. People's concerns would ride upon the logic of their argument and strength of their logic, not the size of their wallet.

    "It's not a planeload of "public interests" that gets hijacked by special interests, it's a boxing ring in which special interests duke it out."

    Nice mythic explanation. The fact is that our current laws get chock full of exceptions for a simple reason, specific groups provide enough free money to congressional members.
    You can verify this in the current health care debate very simply. Create a list of those in Congress opposing a public option, and check out how much each of these opponents has received from health care interest groups.

    " The "public interest" as you like to think of it doesn't exist."


    The public interest is the reason for our government. Our past conversations have demonstrated that you may not believe that. You and I have disagreed about health care because you believe health care is a business that must be protected. I believe health care is a human right in which the government should have an interest. You and I may continue to disagree, but that's not the debate that's occurring in Washington.

    An easy way to see the truth of my position, check out how many politicians have changed their stance on a given piece of legislation only after they have announced they are retiring. Suddenly, they take the opposite position simply because they need neither the money nor good graces of the lobbyists who have paid for their re-elections.

    By removing lobbyist money, the legislative process could be driven by "the public interest," not the bottom line in a political war chest.
  • Dr J
    Hemm, the public interest does not exist. If you don't believe me, please name a single thing the public unanimously wants, that doesn't come at the expense of some other group.
  • HemmD
    Sure

    Justice
    Liberty
    Freedom of choice
    Or any of the 10 bill of rights
  • Dr J
    Hogwash, even you don't consider those all to be in the public interest. You and your leftward cronies are fighting tooth and nail against liberty and freedom of choice, to the extent they tend to permit unequal outcomes.

    But you're making it too easy for me. What you're naming is so vague it's very easy to find counterexamples. Care to get specific?
  • mvy
    The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

    Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections.

    The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes--that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

    The Constitution gives every state the power to allocate its electoral votes for president, as well as to change state law on how those votes are awarded.

    The bill is currently endorsed by over 1,659 state legislators (in 48 states) who have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the bill.

    The National Popular Vote bill has passed 29 state legislative chambers, in small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Oregon, and both houses in California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, and Washington. These five states possess 61 electoral votes -- 23% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

    See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com
  • mvy
    The people vote for President now in all 50 states and have done so in most states for 200 years.

    So, the issue raised by the National Popular Vote legislation is not about whether there will be "mob rule" in presidential elections, but whether the "mob" in a handful of closely divided battleground states, such as Florida, get disproportionate attention from presidential candidates, while the "mobs" of the vast majority of states are ignored. 98% of the 2008 campaign events involving a presidential or vice-presidential candidate occurred in just 15 closely divided "battleground" states. Over half (57%) of the events were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia). Similarly, 98% of ad spending took place in these 15 "battleground" states.

    The current system does not provide some kind of check on the "mobs." There have been 22,000 electoral votes cast since presidential elections became competitive (in 1796), and only 10 have been cast for someone other than the candidate nominated by the elector's own political party. The electors are dedicated party activists who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.
  • mvy
    The small states are the most disadvantaged of all under the current system of electing the President. Political clout comes from being a closely divided battleground state, not the two-vote bonus.

    Small states are almost invariably non-competitive, and ignored, in presidential elections. Only 1 of the 13 smallest states are battleground states (and only 5 of the 25 smallest states are battlegrounds).

    Of the 13 smallest states, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Alaska regularly vote Republican, and Rhode Island, Delaware, Hawaii, Vermont, Maine, and DC regularly vote Democratic. These 12 states together contain 11 million people. Because of the two electoral-vote bonus that each state receives, the 12 non-competitive small states have 40 electoral votes. However, the two-vote bonus is an entirely illusory advantage to the small states. Ohio has 11 million people and has "only" 20 electoral votes. As we all know, the 11 million people in Ohio are the center of attention in presidential campaigns, while the 11 million people in the 12 non-competitive small states are utterly irrelevant. Nationwide election of the President would make each of the voters in the 12 smallest states as important as an Ohio voter.

    The concept of a national popular vote for President is far from being politically "radioactive" in small states, because the small states recognize they are the most disadvantaged group of states under the current system.

    In small states, the National Popular Vote bill already has been approved by a total of eight state legislative chambers, including one house in Delaware and Maine and both houses in Hawaii, Rhode Island, and Vermont. It has been enacted by Hawaii.
  • mvy
    The 11 most populous states contain 56% of the population of the United States and that a candidate would win the Presidency if 100% of the voters in these 11 states voted for one candidate. However, if anyone is concerned about the this theoretical possibility, it should be pointed out that, under the current system, a candidate could win the Presidency by winning a mere 51% of the vote in these same 11 states -- that is, a mere 26% of the nation's votes.

    Of course, the political reality is that the 11 largest states rarely act in concert on any political question. In terms of recent presidential elections, the 11 largest states include five "red" states (Texas, Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, and Georgia) and six "blue" states (California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and New Jersey). The fact is that the big states are just about as closely divided as the rest of the country. For example, among the four largest states, the two largest Republican states (Texas and Florida) generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Bush, while the two largest Democratic states generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Kerry.

    Moreover, the notion that any candidate could win 100% of the vote in one group of states and 0% in another group of states is far-fetched. Indeed, among the 11 most populous states, the highest levels of popular support were found in the following seven non-battleground states:
    * Texas (62% Republican),
    * New York (59% Democratic),
    * Georgia (58% Republican),
    * North Carolina (56% Republican),
    * Illinois (55% Democratic),
    * California (55% Democratic), and
    * New Jersey (53% Democratic).

    In addition, the margins generated by the nation's largest states are hardly overwhelming in relation to the 122,000,000 votes cast nationally. Among the 11 most populous states, the highest margins were the following seven non-battleground states:
    * Texas -- 1,691,267 Republican
    * New York -- 1,192,436 Democratic
    * Georgia -- 544,634 Republican
    * North Carolina -- 426,778 Republican
    * Illinois -- 513,342 Democratic
    * California -- 1,023,560 Democratic
    * New Jersey -- 211,826 Democratic

    To put these numbers in perspective, Oklahoma (7 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 -- larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes). Utah (5 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    You really don't know me or what I think. The fact you see this as simply a political squabble demonstrates there is no explanation that would satisfy your narrow little world view.

    As to specifics, I guess you also find the Constitution too vague for your tastes and comprehension also.

    Justice - equal safeguards and penalties under the law. You know, if health care is good enough for the legislature, it's good enough for joe blow. Real leftwing.

    Liberty - As guaranteed in the 2nd Amendment. I don't own a gun presently, but I will defend your right as long as you maintain the responsibility of ownership. Rabid right wing

    Freedom of choice - freedom to do whatever I want as long as it doesn't affect another person. Real libertarian.

    I*n short, just stop. Your broad brush accusations about me are embarrassing to you and boring to me.

    Drop your political talking points, pick up your brain, and talk to me, not some imagined caricature. I'll never be the straw man you require.
  • witty6
    The Founders also intended us to amend the Constitution when the needs require it.

    The Founders intended to count slaves as 3/5 of people for census purposes. The Founders intended to deny women the vote. The Founders intended for state legislatures to choose Senators, not a direct vote by the people. Guess what? Slavery is gone, women can vote and hold office and people get to directly choose their Senators. The Founders intended us to Change when Change was needed.

    Personally, I agree in spirit with some of the items Pascal listed, but not specifically his proposals. I personally don't think merging the Dakotas would work, I don't like overstacking the Senate the way he suggests (I prefer the top 15-20 states get an extra Senator for a max of 3, based on population rank), and his proposals still do nothing with regards to actual election and campaign fund-raising (what I call legalized bribery) reform that is more needed.

    I do believe the citizens living in DC deserve direct representation, so merging the population back into Maryland to me is basic common sense. I still think Puerto Rico should be a state but on its own terms (what's wrong with the number 51?). I do recognize that we need better representation and should increase the number of Representatives (although I'd try to find out the next census numbers before agreeing to what the new House tally should be), but first I'd do everything to end the undue lobbyist influence before increasing the number of people who can get bought off. We do need to end gerrymandering of Congressional districts: too often it's played to benefit the parties, not the people needing representation. But I'm not so sure of upping the House terms to 4 years with alternating elections: given that even Senators and Presidential hopefuls are campaigning year-round, I'd try to amend the Constitution so that all campaigning and fund-raising can only happen in the actual year of election, and that should stop Congresspersons from going around with their hands out every day of every year.

    And that final proposal of his, adding a Fourth Branch with veto power over the other three?! WTF. Hell no. Let's actually try to enforce the Checks and Balances already established. Best way to do that is to codify it by saying "The President of the United States is NOT above the law (suck it, Nixon/Cheney). The system of checks and balances between the three branches of the government, and between the federal and state levels, will be in effect at ALL times."

    So that's me.
  • Dr J
    Hemm, here's the deal. You can be polite, you can be sensible, or you can agree with me. I'll settle for any one of the three. But if you're going to defend vague and silly positions by telling me to pick up my brain, you will not enjoy my replies to you. Other people probably will, though. It's up to you.

    And you consider yourself a libertarian? That's...well...a curious claim, given all of your comments I've read. You rail against private profits, you dislike market centric solutions, and you say things like "health care is a human right." IMHO, those are hard-left positions.
  • HemmD
    My points were coherent. They have been consistently based upon well known seminal components of our governmental system. Your inability to comprehend those building blocks are not my problem.
  • Dr J
    The building blocks I get just fine, Hemm. I just don't know what coherent points you're referring to.

    My original point was (and is) that the "public interest" is ephemeral, that once you get into the specifics the "public interest" reveals itself as just a gabble of special interests. You disagreed, but the vague building blocks you proposed as counterexamples simply illustrated my point: although people want liberty in general, once you get into the specifics, they disagree about it.

    At that point, you got even less coherent, ranting about how I'm out of line to characterize your leftish views as leftish. Whatever.
  • HemmD
    I guess we need to start with "the general welfare" clause of the constitution:

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Being part of the preamble, it is clear that this social contract found that the general welfare of the population was a primary reason for writing the constitution. Would you agree with that analysis? Justice, tranquility, defense, welfare and freedom.

    If so, then one need look to history to see how this promotion has been manifested. I don't want to go too far if you have problems with my line of thought so far.

    Let me know.
  • Dr J
    Sure, Hemm, I'm totally for justice, freedom, and general welfare. But those terms are so broad and sweeping as to mean next to nothing, like driving directions that only tell you what solar system to go to.

    So, one can look at history, and then what?
  • HemmD
    I'll send this link concerning the general welfare clause if you wish to read it. It's a fairly well done narration of this clause as viewed through our history. I don't agree with every bit of it, but we can certainly work from its narrative to get to the heart of what the phrase means.

    general welfare discussion by by Edward Spannaus and quoting lyndon larouche

    http://american_almanac.tripod.com/welfare.htm
  • HemmD
    I sent you a link discussing the historical context for the general welfare.

    http://american_almanac.tripod.com/welfare.htm

    I'm not advocating views expressed here, I merely am using this link to show the historical context.

    " So, one can look at history, and then what?"

    One's politics are based upon your understanding of history. If you don't know from where ideas come from, you can't make up your own mind and are left with somebody else's talking points.
  • Dr J
    Hemm, I don't understand what point you're making. Are you claiming that "general welfare" is sufficiently precise that no two rational people could disagree about what measures best serve it?
  • HemmD
    I sent you a link discussing the historical context for the general welfare.

    http://american_almanac.tripod.com/welfare.htm

    I'm not advocating views expressed here, I merely am using this link to show the historical context.

    " So, one can look at history, and then what?"

    One's politics are based upon your understanding of history. If you don't know from where ideas come from, you can't make up your own mind and are left with somebody else's talking points.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    The point is not only can people disagree, but they have for 200+ years. The positions have coalesced into two camps:


    1. Gov Winthrop - Winthrop explained: ``The welfare of the whole is not to be put to apparent hazard for the advantage of any particular members''--a very precise repudiation of an oligarchical form of society.

    2. Hamilton - Alexander Hamilton's proposals of 150 years later, in 1640 the General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony voted for subsidies for textile manufacturing, and other subsidies designed to promote manufactures.


    Sorry for the short description of each position, but I'm not trying to argue one against the other, just document them. Anyway, it thus comes down to me to decide which camp I believe is correct.

    Side 1 believes the general welfare is served in total, and no one group being given preference.

    Side 2 believes that the general welfare is helped best by helping those who run the economic interests. Guy's named Mandeville and Adam Smith later codified this into our current free marketers.

    I'm a Side 1 guy. The reason I am can be seen in how side 2 is derived from some of our founding fathers who believed an elite should rule over the masses-an oligarchy like the Greeks. I don't think elites exist in society due to their actions, but by chance and ancestry . And chance is no way to govern.

    If you feel differently, and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    Either way, one has to decide what to believe. Let me know if I sound a little more coherent to you now.
  • Leonidas
    Just read this post. I have to say, its the worst piece of garbage I've seen here ever, disturbing in so many ways and totally undermining the nature of our country.
  • Dr J
    Thanks Hemm, that's a very interesting comment.

    I see a couple different concepts in play here. The first is to what extent a government should attempt to advance the standard of living of its citizens. Genuine tyrants will answer scarcely at all, it's fine to kill them off. Mandeville didn't go quite that far, but he had a classist view of humanity, that government's responsibilities to the elite are different from those to the unwashed. I haven't heard anyone in American political discourse argue either of those positions. In fact everyone seems to agree government ought to maximize the standard of living of all its citizens.

    The contentious part is, of course, the specifics. What policies best advance people's standard of living? How do you know when you're doing the right thing, either in the short term or the long term? Here we have a lot of disagreement that I'd group into these two camps:

    Group A says government should aim in the near term for equality of opportunity, providing them the security, support, and the freedom to succeed or fail as their luck, talents, determination lead them. They're by no means against safety nets to cushion the costs of failure, but they don't feel the need to make it as pleasant as success. This policy, they believe, maximizes everyone's prosperity in the few-decades-and-beyond timeframe.

    Group B says government should strive for more equality of outcome in the near term, providing everyone as much stability and prosperity as possible, and insulating them from the ill fortunes of chance. They're willing to accept less individual freedom as a consequence. This policy, they believe, maximizes everyone's prosperity not only in the long term but in the short term as well.

    I'm a group A guy, because I think group B is mistaken. Pursuing equality of outcome in the near term produces worse outcomes in the longer term. The main engines of our prosperity have always been individuals' determination and skill and their freedom to put them to use--including the freedom to fail. Government does everyone a disservice by declaring war on failure, or success, or even luck.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    Thanks for a great response.

    "Group A says government should aim in the near term for equality of opportunity, providing them the security, support, and the freedom to succeed or fail as their luck, talents, determination lead them. They're by no means against safety nets to cushion the costs of failure, but they don't feel the need to make it as pleasant as success. This policy, they believe, maximizes everyone's prosperity in the few-decades-and-beyond timeframe.

    Group B says government should strive for more equality of outcome in the near term, providing everyone as much stability and prosperity as possible, and insulating them from the ill fortunes of chance. They're willing to accept less individual freedom as a consequence. This policy, they believe, maximizes everyone's prosperity not only in the long term but in the short term as well."

    "Government does everyone a disservice by declaring war on failure, or success, or even luck."

    Except, of course, if the people who are failing are part of the elite. It sounds like we agree that Bush's bailout(with complete help by the Democratic leadership) saved a few elites from their terrible economic gamble of credit default swaps and all the rest.

    I don't want to discuss that fiasco, I mention it merely because it demonstrates a very interesting fact, people from BOTH sides of the aisle helped 1) to allow these elites run wild with other people's money, and then 2) back up the money truck to save their collective *sses when their shell game blows up. My point being that elitists exist in both parties. To look at politics as Dems and Repubs is flat wrong.

    In health care, one can see the same thing. Dems have the cherished majority, you'd think they should be able to pass any damn thing they want. But no, the power elites in the health care business are currently having their present and future profits assured by BOTH sides of the aisle. Your definitions above are (I think) based upon political lines. I suggest that looking at this issue through that lens is pure illusion carefully devised to keep people distracted from what's really going on.

    I know you have stated your opposition to a public plan, but consider what's going on. What is the worst possible threat to health care elites. A single payer system, off the table before before any discussion takes place in public.(The democratic senate leader said that first.)

    The next biggest threat, competition - real competition. The kind where someone can drive the costs down. Costs are a function of profit here. 2% of a hundred million is better than 2% of one million. As long as the cost of medical care goes up, so do profits. It was the blue dogs that insisted that pharma costs could not be negotiated in the present bill. Bush et al did the same thing with the medicaid pharma bill - buy 100 billion in drugs and pay retail. The dems are doing the heavy lifting for the elites in this current bill. The Repugs are throwing out insane scare tactics to confuse the populace. You know the distractions,

    abortion
    gay marriage - these first two could have been taken care of when repubs had the supermajority.
    killing granny is just the latest.

    Instead of looking at this as political, follow the money. I thought the need for health care reform was to reduce costs, increase efficiency, and provide for the short and long term welfare of everyone. Not so much. Maybe I'm not as crazy as you thought.

    Please tell me how I'm wrong. I personally hate my conclusion.
  • Dr J
    Thank you, by the way, Hemm. This is the most interesting discussion I've been in since I started hanging out here.

    My categories weren't supposed to be political, more ideological. Political mechanics are a topic of their own, and both parties are a mess.

    I'm trying to digest your comments about the elites. It suggests this haves-versus-have-nots tension that I just don't perceive. We're the richest country on the planet, and many groups wield political influence through money or votes or both. Which are the elites? I can't tell.

    What I can tell is all these groups keep the government pinned down like Gulliver, and any movements it manages to make will be dictated more by opportunity than deliberation. Which is precisely why I have little faith in government to solve people's problems.

    What is the conclusion you hate? I don't think I caught it.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    I couldn't agree more, conversations like this are why I come here. I also want to apologize upfront for the harshness of my earlier comments. Bomb throwing can be fun in these comment sections, but they really are a huge distraction to everybody's clear thoughts.


    Anyway, so you can't tell the elites without a scorecard? Exactly, me too at lot of the time. They obviously go to great lengths to keep their actions behind the scenes. The political parties are no help in exposing these manipulations, and MSM media is all about the sound byte.

    I'd like to mention something about your groups:

    "My categories weren't supposed to be political, more ideological. Political mechanics are a topic of their own, and both parties are a mess."

    I would submit the conservative/liberal ideological divide is equally an illusion. To start, consider a real world personal problem you and your family faces. What important decision have you had that only had two possible solutions? Life's problems tend to be more complex than black/white, good/bad, or liberal/conservative. Yet all our country's problems are immediately divided in just that way.

    I'm certainly not asking you to defend your conservative leanings, but I ask you if you have analyzed how you came to believe them. Is there no single question that was better answered through a different philosophy? Has there been a single legislative action taken by conservatives that made you go WTF? Maybe not. I ask you this because I ask myself the same things on a regular basis.

    Ideology tends to come to people as a complete ready to eat meal, some book you've read or some person you've heard. Tell me, what person have you met that you completely agree with all the time? I've read philosophies from the Bible through Marx, Budah through Adam Smith. I agree with parts of all of them and disagree with the totality in all of them. The bigger the group you wish to join, the smaller the common ideology you can share in common.
    I require of myself Dave's philosophy, an understanding not based on what some group believes, but what I've personally hammered out over time.

    The effect of such a search is that one find's themselves intellectually alone. For many, that's a real uncomfortable position to be in. It's so much easier to adhere to a group, and if at some point that group demonstrates an action or idea you don't quite agree with, you find your "friends" will turn on you for your blaspheme. I'd prefer not to be required to defend my group. I am only compelled to defend myself, to others, but just as importantly, to myself.

    Your turn (I hope)
  • HemmD
    " What is the conclusion you hate? I don't think I caught it."

    Oh yeah, you asked me a question.

    The conclusion I hate is that the political stuff we spend all our time arguing about is a complete waste of our time as the real agenda being carried on is beyond our reach. We are acted upon and clutch at the illusion that we are somehow participating in how the country is being run.
  • Dr J
    I agree the liberal/conservative dualism doesn't do justice to real world complexity, and I'm not really meaning to suggest everything is that tidy. But I have been in many conversations where different people who agree on one issue give the same answers on another issue. The correlation in their positions suggests they're reflecting deeper fundamental principles. That Jonathan Haidt talk on Ted suggested fairness was one of the liberals' more characteristic principles, accountability one of the conservatives'.

    I can relate to your intellectual aloneness. There have been a bunch of influences on my thinking, from working for the government to studying issues and people's thinking on them, to reading the local paper. Primarily my beliefs are driven by which models better explain the data I've seen. From what I've seen, God-is-superstition fits the data better than God-is-alive-and-well-and-disapproves-of-your-sex-life. Markets-drive-growth fits the data better than markets-drive-oppression. Government-as-bumbler fits the data better than government-as-savior. When it comes to how power is wielded in our system, I don't see the cabal you're worried about, I see something closer to a circus, with lively participation from all over and somewhat random output.

    All of which leaves me without a party. I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal, and I agree with Camile Paglia that neither party stands for anything at this point. I'm registered libertarian, which got me a knock on my door last election from some guy named Starchild. They are a difficult group to take seriously.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    So now we finally understand each other enough to talk about my proposed amendment. $100 cap on donations. My reason is straight forward, congress is a house of prostitution, and lobbyists are their best customers. Being good prostitutes, they will say or do anything for the money. Their ideological positions shift with each John willing to pay. The circus you see is a merely commerce, and people like you and me end up paying for the trade. I don't see this as the "General Welfare" our founding fathers had in mind.

    Blue Dogs - fiscal conservatives, required that health care costs could not be set, but must be negotiated. If they want to save money, why allow year over year increases? And of course costs will increase under that system, not because things cost more, because last year I got this and so this year I need a little more.

    These same fiscal conservatives have no problem fighting an increase to the minimum wage, however. They're happy to cite their ideology then. Remember that historically, the minimum wage came about because businesses had so overpowered employment that kids were working instead of going to school. Mandeville had thought that was the way it should work.

    The general welfare should not mean select groups benefit at the cost of others. The current lobbyist industry does exactly that. The $100 limit doesn't remove one's right to support who he wishes, it just takes concentrated wealth out of the equation. If you have a better way to accomplish this leveling, let me know. I'll back it in a heartbeat.

    At the very least, you and I going forward may better understand each other's comments. I have enjoyed this
  • CStanley
    $100 cap on donations. My reason is straight forward, congress is a house of prostitution, and lobbyists are their best customers.

    So we've established what the politicians are but now you're haggling over the price, Hemm. ;-)

    I say that tongue in cheek, but it gets to your earlier discussion with Dr. J about how we come by our ideological predispositions. If you and I agree that politicans are basically whores, then why do you trust them more than conservatives like Dr. J and myself do?
  • HemmD
    Where did you ever get the idea that I trusted politicians? I may be able to appreciate their skills without necessarily wanting to take them home to Mom. :)

    Seriously, it goes back to the minor dissertation I gave above about the two basic ways that "the General Welfare" clause has been interpreted. Despite the rigged game I see in Washington, I believe many there really are interested in the welfare of the populace. They are just fighting an uphill battle.

    My Senator claire mccaskill is a case in point. She served here in Missouri as State auditor for quite some time before going to Washington. I still watch her like a hawk, but she seems dedicated to the general welfare as I see its definition. Yet, I had reason to disagree with some things she's done.

    I don't ask that these people be saints, just accountable.

    I know you distrust Obama, and again, there have been things with which I disagree. But all in all, he's seemed to me to follow that same desire to help those in our society who have the least control over their existence.

    The past two terms of Bush has pretty much put me off of the "conservative movement" as it was manifest under his reign. The elitism that I oppose above has never in my lifetime been more obvious that in his times. Conversely, William F Buckley was magnificent, even if I didn't always agree with his points.

    Both Buckley and Obama are wicked smart. Maybe that's the common attraction for me.
  • Dr J
    I think a $100 cap on donations merely shifts groups' support for politicians to a more cumbersome currency, not unlike requiring donations be made in rubles. Rather than a check for $1M, lobby groups will produce 10,000 people each bearing $100. Far from changing the nature of the system, such a change might even tilt the field toward the largest PACs with the means to build big campaigning machines to mobilize armies.

    And honestly, I don't see what's necessarily wrong with how things work today. Money talks, but only indirectly, in the sense that it allows politicians to buy the votes that will keep them in office. It's ultimately us voters who are for sale. And it's not like there's only one set of lobbyists. As that list of groups trying to influence health care legislation shows, there are many different voices at the table representing the diversity of the so-called public interest. I dunno, it looks kind of like democracy to me. I'm not sure what else democracy *could* look like at national scale.
  • CStanley
    To Dr. J's point about the unintended consequences of capping campaign contributions, I think there's already plenty of evidence that these things happen. We have caps now, and bundling has become a common practice. Maybe lowering the limit all the way down to $100 would make that endeavor more difficult, less lucrative, and less common- or maybe it would increase fraud in the system as bundlers can more easily come up with fake donors of $100 than fake donors of $2300.

    I do feel, moreso than Dr.J, apparently, that money is a problem in our system. But like him, I don't think that you solve it by trying to regulate the money. I think the only real solution is an informed electorate and transparent donation policies so that smart voters can hold the politicians accountable.
  • HemmD
    Remember, I'm writing this amendment, so bundling is not allowed. No one person or organization may make a donation over a hundred bucks. If 10,000 people send in a hundred each, that's 10,000 separate envelopes. :) For purposes of this pipe dream consider every possible way to avoid the amendment's intent and put in a safe guard against that abuse.

    My intent is simply, I want the legislators to figure out how best to govern by thought, not money.

    " And honestly, I don't see what's necessarily wrong with how things work today"

    Really. I find that the whole idea of health care reform being driven solely by those who stand to make a profit is very wrong. The general welfare drives my concern.
  • Dr J
    "I find that the whole idea of health care reform being driven solely by those who stand to make a profit is very wrong."

    I agree it's wrong, in the sense that I don't see it happening in the sense you mean. Insurers and pharma companies are trying to shape reform, for sure. But so are unions, and practitioners, and the AARP.

    And I disagree that profit is a dirty word, because health care reform is mostly about money. The problem of the uninsured is much more financial than medical--if they get sick, they will generally get treated but risk being wiped out in the process. Everyone from corporations to unionized nurses to retirees to taxpayers is weighing in on the reform process, and they're all looking after their bottom lines. Nothing wrong with that, and again, it's hard to imagine the system could work differently.

    I'd like to see legislators be more thought-driven than money-driven too. But I think the fundamental barrier is voters' limited attention span. Voters can't keep track of hundreds of complex issues, understand the tradoffs involved, and evaluate their representatives fairly on their own. So representatives (both incumbent and aspiring) are forced to market themselves and try to win voters over to their positions, and they need money to do so. If you successfully restricted most of their funding, it's not at all clear to me that voters or legislators would do their jobs any better.
  • CStanley
    For purposes of this pipe dream consider every possible way to avoid the amendment's intent and put in a safe guard against that abuse.

    Fine as long as you know that it's just a pipe dream and that any attempt in the real world to implement it would fail to meet those criteria and in fact could make problems worse instead of better as people find ways to game the new system.

    And the way to get the legislators to figure out how best to govern by thought, not money, is to have voters who won't reelect them if they govern according to who lines their pockets the most. If the lobbyists and special interest groups want to give tons of money, and the politicians reward them with policies that aren't in the public's interest in order to keep the gravy train going, then the voters shouldn't reward that behavior.

    A big part of the problem is that a lot of voters don't believe that THEIR party is guilty of this.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    Big Pharma et al are the only ones who stand to ake a profit here. You may believe that unions are involved (I've seen nothing along thos line but could have missed them) - but unions only stand to save money, not make it.

    The current process ignores the whole idea of reform. Could things be done cheaper, more efficiently, made more universal? of course. is there any great effort to do so? nope. Efficiency is bad for profit as I stated before. Which debate is taking place, saving profits or creating efficiency?

    Efficiency helps those of us who pay.
    Inefficiency helps those who are paid.

    Like one of my entries the other day, I'm ready for the current effort to fail as the plan so composed will only guarantee costs to continue to skyrocket. That's not good enough for the general welfare.
  • HemmD
    CS

    I would honestly ask if you really think ANY of our discussions are more than pipe dreams. The fruits of our logic and intellectual rigor used to analyze and debate could possibly find real solutions to these problems. But even if we did, it would never be heard in Washington. We don't have the price of admittance without the big bucks to hire a lobbyist.

    A Constitutional amendment changes the legal foundations of laws that follow. If the lobbyist system is to be broken, it will have to go through a change in the constitution, not through prostitute legislators
  • Dr J
    Unions are the main opponents of the number one reform I want to see--shifting the health insurance tax deduction from companies to individuals. They don't like it because their members enjoy quite nice health benefits, which would come under threat if companies lost their tax deduction. Call that making a profit or avoiding a loss, it's much the same thing. And as unions are heavy contributors to democrats, we're unlikely to see that change made.
  • HemmD
    Dr J
    " They don't like it because their members enjoy quite nice health benefits, which would come under threat if companies lost their tax deduction."


    If companies pay for health insurance coverage, it's a business expense just like payroll./ I'm not following your logic here. Is somebody trying to take away a business expense?
  • Dr J
    Companies have to pay a tax on payroll and other benefits, from which health insurance premiums are deductible. So it's cheaper for your employer to buy your health insurance than to pay you the cash and you buy it on your own. As a result, most people with insurance have it bought for them.

    This is the single most broken aspect of our health care system. It means you don't have much choice of insurers and will lose your insurance if you leave your job. COBRA laws give you 18 months grace before finding a new job (and a new insurer you didn't choose), but if you miss that you'll have to buy insurance on your own and face the pre-existing condition hurdle doing so. The arrangement saves you money, but you pay for it in risk and lack of choice.

    Worse still are the systemic effects of this single tax law, creating a situation where no one cares about value for money. You don't care how much your insurance costs, because your employer pays for it. You and your employer don't care how much your doctor costs, because the insurance company pays for it. They care how much the doctor costs but don't care whether you felt better after seeing him. Even if they did they'd have no way to tell, because your specific case gets lost in the averages when they renegotiate their contracts.

    Health care is the most dysfunctional industry we have. It's entirely about delivering value to to individual consumers, yet consumers can't make any real decisions, and providers care so little about them that large numbers are simply priced out of the market. The solution is very clear: take the power of the purse away from HR departments (who pass it on to over-powerful insurers) and give it back to the consumers. Fix just one tax law, and our health care industry will improve dramatically.
  • HemmD
    I agree that choice is fundamental for reform to take place. So I take it that coops would be your advocated solution?
  • Dr J
    You mean coops of doctors? I like a lot of aspects of that model. A coop can be accountable for how healthy you are rather than how many treatments you get, which is crucial. Having a long-term relationship with a local co-op (which you picked based on its cost and track record) might work much better for a lot of people than having a short-term relationship with an insurance company.

    I wouldn't advocate imposing coops as the reform, though. They won't be the right answer for everyone. I'd rather reform focused on flexibility--fixing the market so it was easier for coops to catch on if and where they made sense, and easier for them to evolve into something even better some day.
  • HemmD
    I guess my question was meant to be more open ended. What things do you advocate to increase efficiency, reduce customer cost, and help ensure everyone is guaranteed health care.

    That last one obviously doesn't mean walk-ins to the emergency room is acceptable.

    I just haven't heard your list of improvements. This certainly isn't some kind of challenge.
  • Dr J
    There are some obvious improvements waiting to happen, like paying for results rather than treatments, and not doing tests that don't tell anything. We should streamline the FDA's approval process and rely more on existing product liability laws (which we ultimately do anyway, because the FDA's process doesn't work that well). We should streamline malpractice settlements to make common classes of issues like honest mistakes cheaper to resolve, with no lawyers involved. We should stop discouraging integration of medical records through HIPAA--indeed, we should require them to be integrated, so we can tell what works and what doesn't. We should take a hard look at certification requirements for nurses and other practitioners, which unions have successfully inflated to discourage competition and create shortages. If we simply encouraged a more direct payment model--you pay a co-op a flat rate, for example--a ton of billing overhead, coverage disputes and fraud controls would simply evaporate. For crying out loud, there are *entire college degrees* devoted to medical billing.

    But I'm not in the medical field (and even the healthcare-reform-harridan field is just a hobby), so my visibility is limited. You can be sure inefficiencies I notice are large enough to be seen from outer space. There are literally millions more below the radar of what any central authority will notice or be able to fix.

    That's precisely the power of the market. Once you engage millions of brains looking for incremental improvements, they find them, and those add up. Computers have gotten a million times more powerful over the past few decades, not because of one sweeping reform, but because of many incremental improvements. Agriculture has gotten dramatically more efficient over similar timelines, because millions of suppliers stood to make a few bucks by finding a new way to give consumers a little better deal. We could use some of that magic in health care.
  • Dr J
    Oh, and you asked about ensuring coverage. We probably solve half the problem by simply reconnecting supply and demand. Suppliers will figure out they can make a buck by offering cheaper options to consumers, coverage at a wider range of price points will emerge, and many people currently priced out of the market will be able to buy back into it.

    But that's only half the problem. To solve the other half, for people who still can't afford even basic coverage, the government needs to get involved. It should do so by writing these people a check, not picking up a stethoscope.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    I've read your two responses a few times to make sure I understand what improvements you are suggesting. I admit, I don't understand some of them. I'll include the pertinent quotes from you and my response. If I have somehow trimmed your quotes to the detriment of your meaning, please let me know as that is decidedly not my intention.

    "like paying for results rather than treatments, and not doing tests that don't tell anything."

    Three issues with this, how do you pay for results and not treatment? Are you saying that if a treatment is not effective, we don't pay? If so, I suggest you don't understand medicine; a treatment that works for one does not necessarily work for another. Second, what kind of test tells you nothing? More importantly, who decides that a test is unneeded? The insurance company?, the doctor?, the lawyer of the doctor who is trying to save him from malpractice?

    You see, I agree with your point about malpractice as long as truly egregious practices are still nailed for all their worth. I believe the only thing worse than lawyers making a killing through questionable lawsuits are doctors that damage a patient through true negligence. Operating on the wrong leg is a good example.


    "We should stop discouraging integration of medical records through HIPAA--indeed, we should require them to be integrated"
    I agree 100%. Medical computerized records accessible by any medical person will reduce cost, improve treatment, and virtually eliminate medical errors treatment errors.



    "certification requirements for nurses and other practitioners, which unions have successfully inflated to discourage competition and create shortages."

    I would suggest you don't know the facts here. There are 2.5 million nurses in the US, and only a very small portion are unionized. You favorite union, the Service Employees International Union, is the nation's largest health care worker union, only has 110,000 nurses as members out of 900,000 total members. The vast majority of nurses are on the own employment wise.
    The constant cost cutting that goes on at hospitals always lessens the number of RNs as a way to save money. One of the reasons my wife, and RN for 30+ years, quit floor nurse work was due to the fact that fewer and fewer nurses were asked to be responsible for more and more patients. It wasn't the work load she shied away from, it was the safety issue for the patients. You can't be in two places at once.
    You may not know that an interesting effect of unionized nurses is that union hospitals have a lower mortality rate among patients than non-union shops.


    "we simply encouraged a more direct payment model--you pay a co-op a flat rate" Do you mean no deductible or do you mean that people get insurance outside of work?

    " they can make a buck by offering cheaper options to consumers, coverage at a wider range of price points will emerge,"

    Where do the cutback of services occur in the cheaper plans? The definition of what's a catastrophic illness is defined in medical or financial terms? Is reconstructive plastic surgery a luxury? How about a kid's hair lip at birth? I think I know where the lines are drawn if the insurance company makes the call.



    Thanks for your clarification.
  • HemmD
    Dr J

    I've read your two responses a few times to make sure I understand what improvements you are suggesting. I admit, I don't understand some of them. I'll include the pertinent quotes from you and my response. If I have somehow trimmed your quotes to the detriment of your meaning, please let me know as that is decidedly not my intention.

    "like paying for results rather than treatments, and not doing tests that don't tell anything."

    Three issues with this, how do you pay for results and not treatment? Are you saying that if a treatment is not effective, we don't pay? If so, I suggest you don't understand medicine; a treatment that works for one does not necessarily work for another. Second, what kind of test tells you nothing? More importantly, who decides that a test is unneeded? The insurance company?, the doctor?, the lawyer of the doctor who is trying to save him from malpractice?

    You see, I agree with your point about malpractice as long as truly egregious practices are still nailed for all their worth. I believe the only thing worse than lawyers making a killing through questionable lawsuits are doctors that damage a patient through true negligence. Operating on the wrong leg is a good example.


    "We should stop discouraging integration of medical records through HIPAA--indeed, we should require them to be integrated"
    I agree 100%. Medical computerized records accessible by any medical person will reduce cost, improve treatment, and virtually eliminate medical errors treatment errors.



    "certification requirements for nurses and other practitioners, which unions have successfully inflated to discourage competition and create shortages."

    I would suggest you don't know the facts here. There are 2.5 million nurses in the US, and only a very small portion are unionized. You favorite union, the Service Employees International Union, is the nation's largest health care worker union, only has 110,000 nurses as members out of 900,000 total members. The vast majority of nurses are on the own employment wise.
    The constant cost cutting that goes on at hospitals always lessens the number of RNs as a way to save money. One of the reasons my wife, and RN for 30+ years, quit floor nurse work was due to the fact that fewer and fewer nurses were asked to be responsible for more and more patients. It wasn't the work load she shied away from, it was the safety issue for the patients. You can't be in two places at once.
    You may not know that an interesting effect of unionized nurses is that union hospitals have a lower mortality rate among patients than non-union shops.


    "we simply encouraged a more direct payment model--you pay a co-op a flat rate" Do you mean no deductible or do you mean that people get insurance outside of work?

    " they can make a buck by offering cheaper options to consumers, coverage at a wider range of price points will emerge,"

    Where do the cutback of services occur in the cheaper plans? The definition of what's a catastrophic illness is defined in medical or financial terms? Is reconstructive plastic surgery a luxury? How about a kid's hair lip at birth? I think I know where the lines are drawn if the insurance company makes the call.



    Thanks for your clarification.
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