AstroTurfing, Yes – Mud, No
Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and some on the left, would have people believe that AstroTurfing (or the popular uprising of the enraged citizenry against the government) is something new and to be feared. If that is the case, then the American Revolution and the Civil Rights Movement are artificial dandelions that rudely infiltrated on the beautiful lawns of the British Empire and racial segregation respectively.
Two years ago, these same individuals were AstroTurfing former President Bush over the War in Iraq. These people explained their protests by saying that Bush was standing on shaky and muddy ethical ground. Now when the tables are turned, and the majority of the American people are not behind them, it is amazing how quickly the rights of a stable citizenry who should be listened to transform into the artificial orchestrations of the right-wing conspiracy.
I like AstroTurfing. There, I said it. In fact, I think that AstroTurfing is preferable to having a health care policy that is a puddle of Mud. Mud is the mess of the menagerie of health care bills that are littered all over the House of Representatives. If AstroTurfing allows for a better playing field in regards to deciding the best possible health care bill, I am all for it.
That said, I would rather keep AstroTurfing in its’ proper context in the National Football League. I get the dry heaves imagining some of these people on the Hill in shoulder pads… although Nancy Pelosi vs. Michelle Bachmann may get better ratings than the Detroit Lions on Thanksgiving Day.
24 Responses to “AstroTurfing, Yes – Mud, No”
Sometimes you have to wonder how someone like Pelosi gets to the position she is in. She really isn't the brightest star in the sky.
Dems need to stick with the conspiracy theory that these protestors are right wing plants…not your average concerned citizen. It will go a lot further than calling them Nazies…which is an instant turn off.
Dems need to stick with the conspiracy theory that these protestors are right wing plants
Unfortunately you can't fool the millions of people who agree with the alleged “plants” or alleged “industry shills” or whatever you want to pretend they are. That's what's so absurd about this whole strategy- people know that the anger is real, and they know that the polling data conflicts with their claims that this is all astroturfing.
Perhaps instead of pretending that no sane person opposes these supposed reform plans, the Dems should just realize that they need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that actually solves problems without creating worse ones. Now there's a novel strategy! Write decent legislation that everyone can understand, and that you can discuss honestly so you don't have to try to marginalize your opponents by lying about them.
I think you are confusing the notion of a Grassroots movement- that is, person to person neighbor to neighbor that is organic in nature and not manufactured by a PR firm owned by Dick Armey. Hence, the term AstroTurf, as it is “grown” by a manufacturer. It is not the “popular uprising of the enraged citizenry” by any stretch. It is UK style Hooliganism, where Town Halls are the new soccer fields. THey are not there for civic debate, they are there to rabble-rouse. We've all seen the memos, it's pre meditated, the citizens become puppets and the sad irony is they don't even know who's pulling their strings.
Bussing them in, giving them “scripts” verbatim without fully informing them of who they( ie Freedom Works) really are or what the point of it all is , is disingenuous. Just like a “fair and balanced” network ( I use that term loosely) becomes co-hosts of a “Teabagger” movement.
“or the popular uprising of the enraged citizenry against the government”
That's not an accurate description either.
“If that is the case, then the American Revolution and the Civil Rights Movement are artificial dandelions that rudely infiltrated on the beautiful lawns of the British Empire and racial segregation respectively.”
Aaaahaha. No. Those people had a righteous case and protested against old, obsolete and unacceptable ways. This case is entirely different – here such pesky things as factual grasping of an issue and meritocracy comes into effect. Simply disliking an administration does not a noble cause make. Trying to create a din that will stifle the sort of debate that would lead to better, popular policy is just pathetic.
” Now when the tables are turned”
Except invading Iraq was obviously wrong both when it came to sensible foreign policy and when it came to the ethical implications of casus belli. Your analogy is close at hand but faulty. There is astroturfing (that is, influence outside of the citizen sphere aiding or instigating protests) and there are people asking honest questions.
You can't criticize some democrats for exaggerating the degree of artificiality in the protests in general and then try to compare them to the people who walked next to King to fight segregation. Take it easy.
“If AstroTurfing allows for a better playing field in regards to deciding the best possible health care bill, I am all for it.”
It's hurting your own cause, so I am glad both for the confession and your support for these loons.
It is one thing for citizens to gather to have an honest and open debate about a subject. It is quite another for a group to circulate emails advising people on how to disrupt the proceedings. Yes, you have a right to sound off to your Congressman. But you have no right to disrupt a public meeting and prevent someone else from doing the same thing.
“Perhaps instead of pretending that no sane person opposes these supposed reform plans, the Dems should just realize that they need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that actually solves problems without creating worse ones.”
Why should they do as you say? You know you can't have perfect legislation, you know the current system hurts people and the economy every year, you know the problem will become greater as time goes by and you also know the GOP is at best no better than the DNC at actually making good legislation with no ideological luggage. You're asking for more than you think.
The polls were in 90 % favor of Bush, who later was at 20 % when they realized who he was and the war in Iraq turned out as poorly and uselessly as the minority at the time predicted. This slim majority who might feel some sort of rumbly sensation in their tummy when they hear all the bumf about the current reform – how good of a perspective on and grasp off the issue do they have? One side is guilty of not bothering to spread information, the largely is generally guilty of spreading disinformation.
You know you can't have perfect legislation
There's a big difference between letting the perfect be the enemy of the good (which is what you're pretending this is) and trying to block legislation that would take a bad situation and make it far worse.
“trying to block legislation that would take a bad situation and make it far worse.”
Lol wut.
“I wish in hindsight I'd tried to get involved to stop that debacle, and I'm certainly not going to remain quiet while we pour more gasoline on the fire.”
You know what they say, hindsight is 0-20/20.
The problem is, CStanley, that no one will know what the proposed legislation is if they can't even go ask a question at a meeting because there's people yelling and trying to interrupt the whole thing.
Or to put it another way, does anyone here think that we'd have a better discussion of the pros and cons of anything if I were to scream at you whenever you spoke, try to sidetrack any point you made, attacked you personally, maybe tried to do a denial of service attack on your blog, and on and on? Of course not. All that would happen is we would hate each other and steadfastly refuse to ever concede any point because we'd never ever want to agree with that jerk.
“Can you believe how those people act? That Side has no class or respect for others. Must be a bunch of Nazis. I hate them all.”
That's all we'd get. We love such tactics when used on others but never on ourselves.
Nancy P. is dead wrong. This style of uprising isn't new at all. The French Revolution was a long time ago. She's also right, this is serious and significant. We will not forgive those who deny us health care. It is a basic human right that cannot be meted out and profitted from at the whim of monopolistic capitalists. It will affordable for all or there will be hell to pay.
The problem is, CStanley, that no one will know what the proposed legislation is if they can't even go ask a question at a meeting because there's people yelling and trying to interrupt the whole thing.
First, paca, that's the narrative that's being put out about what's going on but Mikkel's post gives a different perspective. The interruptions are sometimes just interrupting the BS talking points that the Congressional Rep is spouting, and asking him to answer actual questions- and in most cases when this happens, the Congressman is struck dumb without the ability to actually answer.
And as for people not being able to learn what is in the bill- don't you think people should actually take the time to read? That's half the problem- people want to be spoonfed, and when you ask for spoonfeeding, a politician will feed you whatever vague, nonanswers he thinks you want to hear.
There's nothing wrong with going to an event like this to actually make the Congressperson defend his position, and if he proves unable to do so then that's his problem.
In cases where people really don't allow a response, I agree with you- but again, look at a variety of sources at clips and see if you think that's going on in all of these cases.
shannonlee – every time you 'nutters' go off on a “you have to wonder how someone like Pelosi gets to the position she is in. She really isn't the…” tirade I post the accomplishments already made by the 111th Congress and you guys just fade away without a reply.
So again [sigh] (cool eh DLS?) Here's the Legislation of the 111th Congress. These are bills that have been signed into law… passed waiting Senate action… or, adopted as house policy under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi… Please review the legislation and tell me again what (other than a talking point) is you concern with Speaker Pelosi?
Steve, I have a lot of concerns with a lot of items on that list, but couldn't possibly take the time to go into all of them. Do you want to pick a few, or can we just agree that reasonable people can find cause for dissatisfaction with many of those items?
Hey, CStanley, first up, surely there shouldn't be a rigid division between reading legislation where all facts are learned, and town hall meetings which are entirely political. It's certainly acceptable to have people learn stuff in both situations.
For your larger point, yeah, one has to get into the specifics of what's actually going on. If a person asks a well-informed question that challenges the speaker's talking points with facts and doesn't let them avoid the question, that's the ideal. If a person interrupts the speaker only for the sake of interruption and doesn't allow any conversation to take place, but instead insists simply on yelling the talking points they've been given, then they are helping no one.
“First, paca, that's the narrative that's being put out about what's going on but Mikkel's post gives a different perspective.”
It's not narrative, it's truth. Trying to say all the reform-negative voices behave like the klaxoning fools is a narrative, but that's no good.
Here's a couple of really interesting links for TMVers.
http://recessrally.com/
here's link to the site to help organize the disruption of the national conversation on healthcare reform. Note the logos of sponsors on the bottom of the front page.
Now, here's the link to Rachel Maddow's transcript from last night, where she explains who many of these “grassroots” sponsors are and the people behind them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32315185/ns/msnbc_t…
I'm not on the right, I just think Pelosi is a moron. The work of hundreds of people doesn't make her intelligent…she just happens to have seniority.
Pardon my assuming that you were on the right. As your “She's a moron” remark is exactly the same as the current wingnut talking point you'll surely understand where my error came from. Also since the Speaker of the House sets the legislative calender (what bills are heard and when) your “The work of hundreds of people doesn't make her intelligent” comment sounds like you're not very familiar with the workings of House of Representatives.
Again, what (other than you think that she is a moron) are your problems with Speaker Pelosi?
chimpy bush was not “astroturfed” back at the start of Irag, but in that case, regardless of what you believe happened, CLEARLY – by anyone's account – bush and cheney lied about “there can be NO DOUBT that Saddam Heussin has weapons of mass destruction”. They sent thousands to their deaths based upon lies.
Now that issue is entirely different than Americans in need of healthcare, and the only TRUE reform would be to remove the insurance companies from the mix.
* 14,000 people PER DAY in America lose their health care.
* 60% of personal bankruptcies are due to medical bills.
* 47 MILLION people are without health care coverage.
* Americans spend twice as much as any other health care system.
* America's mortality rate is among the worst in developed nations.
Isn't it time for Reagan's “ME GENERATION” (give ME tax cuts, give ME less regulations, give ME less government, give me a gun and bible, give ME a break, give ME a brain, etc) who only think about themselves, to just shut up.
Isn't it our patriotic duty to help our fellow countrymen? Isn't it time for Americans to start conducting themselves more the America's Greatest Generation – the World War II generation?
As someone who benefits from the National Health Service (NHS) in the UK, I would plead for the American people to think very carefully indeed before committing your country to any form of WHOLLY publicly funded system of medical care.
As has seemed to have happened since its introduction in 1949, the NHS has absorbed more and more of tax payers money here in the UK. As people live longer and both drugs and technology become ever more expensive, the politicians will either increase spending through taxation, or make cuts in other areas such as, that old favourite with our lawmakers over here, defence.
Indeed, the whole of Europe have enjoyed some form of socialised medicine, and have done so at the expence of their defence budgets. But then, we on the continent of Europe have always bee able to rely upon the American taxpayer for our defence needs.
“This style of uprising isn't new at all. The French Revolution was a long time ago. “
Danton and Robespierre wrote the book on it. Too bad the Revolution chewed them up and spat them out.
That's funny, I don't think I ever saw a corporate sponsored protest from the Left, complete with logos.
The problem with Astroturifing (and this is from all sides) is that it undermines reasonable debate.
Instead of spending time at a Town Hall meeting discussing a complicated and serious issues with a wide variety of proposed solutions, we end up with people yeling falsitudes abot”the government euthanizing me” and the always popular “I have a friend in Canada … ” tale (it amazing how many conservatives who love to mock everything about Canada now seem to have so many friends there).
Hicks, provides my example as there is nothing under consideration that equates to what exist in Canada or the UK. Nothing!! Some of the bills include a public insurance option (note the word option) available in the market (like the US Postal Service, compared FedEx, DHL or UPS). However, many analyst would tell you that is unlikely to be included in the final bill.
Ironically, no one ever discusses the proposed health insurance exchange set up by the government where the coverage is provided by private insurers at lower rates than are now generally available under rules that require insurers to offer coverage to anyone regardless of health condition (a very moderate program position, as it lessens burden of government rules). Of course, that would require a listening and discussing an issue rather than talking about “my friend in Canada…”