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Some Thoughts on Gay Marriage and DOMA

My spouse and I are very familiar with both the straight and gay worlds as we are both flaming heterosexuals with a number of gay/lesbian/bisexual friends and acquaintances. Despite our conservative religious backgrounds, whether there are gay couples (married or just living together) in our neighborhood is of no significance whatsoever to us or for raising our family. However, there must be a balanced discussion of the entire issue of gay marriage without painting any particular position or group of people as discriminatory or prejudiced.

We have straight friends who find everything about the gay community “disgusting” or “immoral.” We disagree and try to explain to them that gay people (that term includes male homosexuals, female lesbians, bi-sexuals of both sexes, transgendered and trans-sexual people) are genetically and hormonally different from straight people but they are still human beings, with more similarities to straights that their particular sexual or personality traits.

Alleged differences between races, ethnicities, nationalities, religions, and other historical distinctions have been proven scientifically, biologically, and ethically false. Organ transplants depend upon the 4 blood types all humans have in varying frequency that cut through all social, economic and political groups without regard to sexual orientation. Numerous studies have indicated that gay brains may be wired differently than straight ones but there are also studies suggesting major differences between brains wired for conservative as opposed to liberal political attitudes. While environment and personal choices do affect each person’s lives, we have to admit we have little “choice” on our very influential genetic or hormonal backgrounds.

Marriage has been limited to a man and woman for most of recorded human history, which is about the past 10,000 years. However, human beings have only been on this planet (4.5 billion years old) for the last 250,000 years. What types of sexual relations were permitted during the majority of our history is anyone’s guess. But considering the physical characteristics (and some mental and immunological differences) that appear between people from different geographic areas, there must have been significant inbreeding during our human history.

For most of history human life was short and brutal. As a result, long-term relationships that did not produce healthy offspring were not readily encouraged by most social groups. Prohibitions against sibling and close relative mating in most societies probably resulted from our forefathers looking at the less-than-stellar children of those marriages long before they understood modern genetics. It is also important to note that for most of human history until the 20th century, marriage also started much earlier, most often involving arranged marriages between teenagers. And pre-marital and extra-marital affairs probably have long been the standard, not the norm of human behavior.

There have been many gay people in noteworthy historical positions. However, those in gay studies who argue that more and more famous people were closet “gays” may be pursuing arguments where no objective proof is available. It serves no one today to argue about such conjectures since the actual differences between “gay” and “straight” people are overblown and are limited to certain sexual and personality attributes – none of which objectively dominates any person’s life, unless one becomes obsessed with the differences. There have been both competent and incompetent political leaders in history – and their sexual leanings were ultimately irrelevant. The effort to normalize gay life by arguing that many famous people in history were closet gays is probably not the best approach for gaining equality with the vast majority of heterosexual people.

Most of our Western ideas about marriage came about during the Roman Empire, during the growth of Christianity during the first 4 centuries A.D. Some Romans were outwardly more tolerant of “gay” people than Christians – but the most important aspect in life was maintaining a good public appearance. Roman society – despite well-publicized debauchery and alternative lifestyles of some upper-class people and emperors – was essentially conservative and always propagated the 1-man, 1-woman traditional marriage ideal.

Most world religions embraced that traditional marriage for centuries as well. In the Far East, different but parallel religious and ethical traditions also embraced such a limited view of marriage. Again, for practical reasons, marriages without quick procreation were social, economic, and species-expanding wastes of time. Now in some places, polygamy (1 man with multiple wives) and to a lesser degree polyandry (1 woman with multiple husbands) were and are tolerated so long as those arrangements were and still are economically viable and produce children.

As far as the percentage of gay people in society, many varying studies indicate about 5% of any population likely fits into that category. However, with the breakdown of strong religious influences in modern western societies in favor of more spiritual or humanistic outlooks, more people may be free to express their sexual freedom now and in the future. My spouse and I grew up in religious traditions that stated all “gay” impulses were immoral and sinful, and that even masturbating and other acts outside of proscribed sexual positions would be sinful as well. We ultimately came to the belief that what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is no one’s business unless physical harm or death results.

I might venture to guess that more people will come out gay or at least admit to being bi-sexual in the future, putting the alternative lifestyle percent of the population at around 10% – a socially, politically and economically significant minority. This percentage has probably held steady throughout human history as a genetic/hormonal fact regardless of whether people were accepting or gays remained in the closet. However in a small town of 1,000 people in the past, 25 people openly gay might have been tolerable with 75 more in the closet to the majority of heterosexual residents who probably were of the same religious mindset. However, in a modern city of 1 million, 100,000 openly gay people are significant and noticeable even if the overall percentage does not change from the two locations or time periods. Some conservatives friends complain that there are more “gays” today in the past. It’s not just that more have come out of the closet, there are more of all types of people in the world, so naturally every subgroup will increase as well as our overall human population has grown immensely during the past century over our previous 250,000 years on this planet.

However it may be untrue to argue that the long historical, social, economic, political, and species-advancing history of traditional marriage is just a baseless bigotry against gays. Any activity that embraces most all cultures, religions and political entities uniformly for thousands of years cannot be dismissed cavalierly. Even with the exceptions of tolerating gay people in a few past societies, plus very limited current acceptance of polygamy and polyandry in limited areas, does not automatically give rise to the need for or “rightness” of gay marriage.

Past prohibitions against inter-racial marriages in various societies are now viewed as repugnant to the equality of all humans, cannot be extended to gay marriage either. Neither can the long road from slavery to equality for all black people in the U.S. be an appropriate parallel for gay marriage, but better for treating all people equally under the law. We have learned that mixed-race, mixed-ethnic, and even mixed religious traditional marriages produce healthy and smart children who contribute to every society – President Obama is just one example. However since gay marriages are essentially biological dead-ends, that actually opens up a better argument for accepting gay marriages or unions.

My spouse and I know a number of heterosexual couples who decided to have no children or they are physically unable to have children without expensive medical intervention. Their choices are to remain childless, adopt, or go thru surrogacy and fertility treatments. However, childless heterosexual marriages are viewed as completely normal from both societal and religious perspectives. The couples are free to concentrate on their relationship rather than dealing with children. This is where the gay marriage debate might start as a point of comparison, not from arguing parity with bi-racial child-producing marriages but concentrating on accepting two people in a commited relationship without the requirement that it always produces children. Certainly with improved healthcare and longer lifespans, our human population no longer needs to worry about species continuation with more than 6 billion of us on earth.

Even if the majority of U.S. states permitted gay marriage, the largest impediment to treating all individuals equally is the Federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) codified at 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C. The law has two effects: (1) No state needs to treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state, and (2) the federal government may not treat same-sex relationships as marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states. The bill was overwhelmingly passed by Congress and was into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. Essentially the law prohibits same-sex marriages from being treated the same as traditional marriages for all federal benefits of social security, taxation, medical care, and any other legal considerations.

All individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation, should be treated equally under the law for financial, healthcare, governmental, and tax purposes. Until and unless that federal law is amended, all the anger, between opponents and proponents of gay marriage on a state-by-state basis, is misdirected and essentially results in too many people getting upset over essentially secondary issues. I personally believe meaningful access to healthcare or health insurance should not depend upon a person’s marital status, job situation, or being a dependent of any other person.

The excessive criticism of Miss California, who recently finished as runner-up in the Miss USA contest, was unnecessary. The vicious attacks by the gay judge and other gay advocates for her public support of traditional marriage were unwarranted. Gay people are not going to win any arguments with the majority of Americans who still do not like them and who prefer the traditional marriage limitations with such vitriol and baseless anger. Calling people who now disagree with the Gay agenda and its particular political opinions as bigoted or hateful is not the way to advance any meaningful legal changes that would protect the civil rights of all human beings. Even President Obama stated in 2008 that he supports traditional marriage but is open to civil unions.

The word “marriage” carries much historical and religious baggage. As we move forward, gay marriage should probably be limited to civil and governmental recognition. Religious bodies should be exempt from performing or recognizing any gay unions. There will be some religious organizations that will bless such unions but those that refuse should not be subject to endless civil litigation to compel such recognition. So long as gay partners have all the same civil rights with respect to governmental programs, healthcare, and tax considerations, then that should be the ultimate goal.

Going to war against the Roman Catholic Church and other conservative Christian, Moslem and Jewish denominations would be unproductive, mean-spirited, and ethically suspect. In fact, arguments of equal treatment under the law might even be more compelling with conservative organizations than just demanding coverage under a word with historical and serious religious overtones. The principal goal for the gay community should be full legal equality under a Constitution that specifically protects the separation of church and state. As long as the majority of Americans with moral or ethical objections view their positions are protected under the free exercise clause, they may be more willing to acomodate gay civil unions on a purely legal basis.

Some in the gay community who are throwing tantrums and yelling ugly words at people who do not share their views, including blond beauty queens with breast implants and other private citizens who have the legal and moral right to disagree, are pursuing the wrong path. These antics are a poor choice of political tactics and are completely misdirecting the necessary debate on human rights that this country is probably ready to pursue without the theatrics. The prolonged fight over symbolic gay marriage on a state-by-state basis only prolongs the battle and needless animosity between the extremes, whereas a thoughtful debate on modifying DOMA would be a better use of everyone’s time, arguments and efforts.

5/2/09 by Marc Pascal in Phoenix, AZ

  • Silhouette
    "are genetically and hormonally different from straight people "

    **********

    This is a false premise that you started your commentary with. Read this article: "Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review" http://www-psychology.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pf...

    and pay particular attention to the five or six pages of referenced studies supporting the findings that sexual preference in mammals is demonstrated to be learned. And further, that social pressures seem to affect partner-choice [in the concluding paragraphs.]

    It is possible that after the fixation has been foisted or chosen, the new attraction may affect hormonal responses and not the opposite..

    It is important to talk about both sides of the debate, and the debate isn't whether or not homosexuals and other deviants should be allowed to marry, but rather whether or not homosexuality is innate. Basically, if you believe in mammalian comparative psychology as a viable scientific field of study, then you have to consider that sexual preference is learned and not innate.

    If it is a learned behavior, it follows by inference that it can be taught. Social pressures in future generations may actually "teach" pubescent humans to "choose" deviant sex over hetero. Indeed, the Bay Area in particular, and other renowned gay communities seem to foster a "gay culture", where, if sociology is also a viable field of study, it can be deduced that social acceptance and indeed promotion of gay culture [see advertisements of events pitched to youth inviting "bi-curious" to attend] would result in a greater number of deviant individuals in a population over time.

    That being said, it is equally important not to denigrate those people whose sexuality truly no longer is a choice once fixated. Civil unions were the perfect solution to the dilemma of at once recognizing deviant sexuality as a foisted or acquired fixation [fixation means permanent] and also protecting future generations from what is essentially, sociologically "inappropriate influence" from deviant sexuals.
  • atheistpaladin2
    You are not taking a stand, just admonishing both sides. Not engaging in arguments but only presentation and style is cowardly and helps even less.
  • the debate isn't whether or not homosexuals and other deviants should be allowed to marry, but rather whether or not homosexuality is innate.


    No, Sil. That's not the wider debate. That's your debate.
  • Ryan
    Following this, we can have Balanced Discussions on whether blacks are inferior, if wives are property and if Jews should all be executed for deicide. Remember, no painting anyone as prejudiced!
  • 1USAEqual
    If church leaders are going to play such a political role, then the church involved should pay taxes.
  • Dr J
    Marc, so we should have separate-but-equal arrangements for gays because of (a) tradition and (b) conservatives would like that better for a variety of hard-to-pin-down but not-homophobic reasons? Both of those sound pretty arbitrary, wouldn't you say?

    You're right that gays could stop with civil equality with respect to inheritance and health care and other laws, but they don't seem to be doing so. Why do you imagine that is?
  • kudo451
    [quote]This is a false premise that you started your commentary with. Read this article: "Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review" http://www-psychology.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pf... [/quote]

    Wow, Sil. talk about a false premise. Your article there implies that all of this begins with sex. Most homosexuals know they are homosexual long before ever engaging in sex. It is just as innate as the day you discovered you where attracted to the opposite sex. Or did you have to actually have sex to know?

    As to the article itself: I found it very insightful, but I have to say while it attempted to cover much from a historic perspective, completely ignoring the overwhelming history of oppression and persecution and murder condoned in most societies of the homosexual just forces what would have been a great point into petty rhetoric. After all asking homosexuals to be more patient and tolerant in a world that barely tolerates them just smacks of abject condescension.
  • Silhouette
    No polimom, that IS the debate since homosexuals are arguing "descrimination" as the basis for their pleas to be allowed to marry. Adopting a cultural behavior during puberty does not a "minority group" make. But even if it did, we must look at the fact that if sexual-preference is learned, it follows logically that it can also be taught.

    Add that to the fact that gay culture factually seeks to recruit [see my post above discussing gay events thrown and advertised towards "bi-curious" youth], you have a problem with how deviant marriage being mainstreamed will affect future populations.

    It is as if men are suddenly campaigning to be allowed in women's bathrooms or vice versa. Deviant is deviant, hetero is hetero and we shouldn't blend the two definitions by melding of one into the other.

    The majority of voting americans believe that hetero sex is the only normal sex there is [nature supports this theory as well...nevermind religious opinon for which has little weight in american politics]. Sex is a behavior, not a physical trait. Gender is a physical trait. Black skin isn't a behavior, it's a physical trait. Judiasm is a faith, a philosophy, not a behavior.

    Human behavior is contagious...it really is, whereas no one can "catch" a darker skin color or "catch" the need to not eat pork. Sexuality is a very animalistic behavior that is malleable and complex...not fully comprehended though many studies do have data on it as being acquired. An entire industry banks on the malleable fixation of sexual preference and it's that potential to be reflexively fixated and "permanent" that we should pay very close attention to when playing with social fire of normalizing a behavior that patently isn't normal..
  • MarcoLuxe
    In the article you state: "Religious bodies should be exempt from performing or recognizing any gay unions." You are injudicious to imply that churches would ever have to recognize ANY civil marriage within a faith community. What the church deems sacred or holy has never been open to government interference. It was unwise to raise this red herring.

    However, critics will claim that there is an inevitable tension between how a church acts in the secular world and secular laws. I agree. Secular laws govern secular actions. Here in CA, our anti-discrimination laws cover ALL businesses, with exceptions for the claims of belief. If it acts like a for-profit business or a public accommodation, it generally has to follow secular law, even if the business appends a church name. That's the way it should be. However, no laws can govern conscience or faith.
  • Dr J
    Silhouette: "Choose heterosexuality! 60% less deviant than the other leading sexuality!"

    Would you please stop trying to recruit people to your "normal" sexuality? Especially with nonsense like Judaism not being learned?
  • sashmovement
    I think the issue is about bigotry and not religion. When religion is used to promote bigotry I really don't care if it is homophobia, sexism, or racism I will stand four square against it.

    Civil Unions equates to second class citizenship, it does not take the brightest crayon in the box to recognize that.

    Promote bigotry under the guise of freedom of speech and/or religion and you get what you get a angry response.

    For the life of me I don't understand why you should be so privledged to be able to get married. I will put my 29 years in relationship up against yours any day of the week and we will see which is life affirming.

    Your reasoning that because marriage has always been between a man and women is pure nonsense. You obviously lake even a rudimentary understanding of how it developed in the middle ages, and why it developed the way it did. Get a grip things change now that is a sign of life.

    Concerning your remarks about Paris Hilton and Miss California what planet are you on? Paris Hilton makes a living out of raking up mud on TV stars and others that is what he does as a living. I can assure you the organizers of the pageant understood this. But for you to equate the Paris outburst as an example of angry gay activist is just as clueless as saying "it always has been, and therefore always will be" in reference to marriage.

    Perhaps you don't understand that the LGBT Movement has a life of its own. No one directs it especially bleeding heart democratic liberals who don't understand the damage their position of privilege is doing to many LGBT families.

    Joe Murray
  • StockBoySF
    "Marriage has been limited to a man and woman for most of recorded human history, which is about the past 10,000 years."

    That's not strictly true because marriage wasn't even recorded in the Roman Catholic Church until something like the 1500's, and the protestants followed later.

    Marriage ceremonies were often just between two people (and no witnesses needed) with each saying to the other that they were married. Who knows how many gay marriages there were.

    And in ancient Roman times (before the time period you mentioned) there were gay marriages, though not many are known about.

    And there are also various types of "straight" marriage from monogamy, to polygamy and polyandry. So the nature of marriage has changed over time. And it really didn't have anything to do with religion to begin with (until the 1500s or so).
  • StockBoySF
    "Going to war against the Roman Catholic Church and other conservative Christian, Moslem and Jewish denominations would be unproductive, mean-spirited, and ethically suspect."

    This is where you are flat-out, totally incorrect.

    Gays and lesbians are not going to war against the Roman Catholic Church and other conservative Christian, Moslem, etc..... denominations.

    They are going to war against gays and lesbians and no further proof is needed than Prop. 8 in California.

    Gays and lesbians could legally marry in California and lots of churches support same-sex marriage as a fundamental religious belief.

    However many "Roman Catholic Church and other conservative Christian" churches do not believe in same-sex marriage and do not respect the legal rights and religious freedoms of those who do. It was these churches who are going to war against the gay and lesbian community.

    Gays and lesbians in California were happy to get legally married and in their churches before the religious right wanted to take away our rights by passing an amendment to the California Constitution.

    So your characterization of gays and lesbians going to war against the various religions is just backwards. It's these religious folks who don't like us and want to tell us who we can and can not marry.

    We certainly don't tell them who they can and can not marry, why should we obey them (and follow their religion, when it's not even ours) when they try to tell us who we can or can not marry and treat us like second class citizens? Yet that's exactly what some churches are doing with Prop. 8.
  • StockBoySF
    As far as your statement, "There will be some religious organizations that will bless such unions but those that refuse should not be subject to endless civil litigation to compel such recognition."

    This is absolutely correct. If a church doesn't want to perform a same-sex union then it is their freedom to decline. I think we all go belong to religions that most closely reflect our beliefs and I would not get married in a church that did not reflect my values, for that would undermine the very value of a religious marriage.

    Though I do know that there are lots of straight couples who just want a "church" wedding for the sake of having a church wedding. Some straights don't want to get married in a church as an expression of their religious beliefs or to honor God. They just want a church wedding because that's the proper way to get married.

    Also I just want to point out that members (both gay/lesbian and straight) of church congregations will want their church to recognize same-sex unions. That is a discussion for that church and its members to have. It is not a discussion which really should involve members of other religions. There certainly could be a large organization of gay (and sympathetic) Catholics (as an example) who do put pressure on the Catholic Church to allow same-sex marriage. The religious organizations will portray that group as a gay rights group (which they are) but conveniently leave out that fact that the members of this "gay" group are also members of their church.
  • StockBoySF
    "The principal goal for the gay community should be full legal equality under a Constitution that specifically protects the separation of church and state. As long as the majority of Americans with moral or ethical objections view their positions are protected under the free exercise clause, they may be more willing to acomodate gay civil unions on a purely legal basis."

    Well.... I pointed out a statement where we disagreed and one where we agreed. This is one where I think you're half right.

    Yes, all legal protections for straight married couples should be extended to gay married couples and both straight and gay couples should register at their city hall (or where ever) in order to "legally" get married.

    However when it comes to marriage in a church then yes the same separation of church and state should apply. If a church wants to marry just straight couples, or just gay couples or a combination of the two in a religious ceremony then the church has a right to do that without being compelled to marry anyone they do not want. But for a couple to enjoy the legal benefits, they still need to register with the local government at city hall (or where ever). This is not really a change as couples currently need to get marriage certificates from city hall.
  • Silhouette began with:
    Add that to the fact that gay culture factually seeks to recruit [see my post above discussing gay events thrown and advertised towards "bi-curious" youth],

    Actually, it can easily be demonstrated how homosexual culture "factually seeks to recruit" as well. Boiled down to the similar thread that weaves between the two, humanity's sex drive seeks to recruit. After all, regardless of the target to our desires nor the reasoning behind them, they are (quite simply) desires. In order to achieve the goals that most sex drives exhibit, you have to recruit someone, somewhere :).

    The above was concluded via:
    you have a problem with how deviant marriage being mainstreamed will affect future populations.

    It's in humanity's better interest to stop the exponential population growth that it's currently experiencing, given the continual strain on food and other resources. This is not to say that a reduction in numbers is preferred, mind you, simply that not all marriages require offspring these days in order to maintain the human race's survival. This is already seen in heterosexual marriages, where procreation is not deemed necessary. On the other hand, there are multiple instances where gay, lesbian, polyamory, or other relationships do produce children.

    In other words, the population seems to be handling itself quite well these days.
  • StockBoySF
    Sil, "Deviant is deviant, hetero is hetero and we shouldn't blend the two definitions by melding of one into the other."

    You don't mention anything about what homo is.... Personally I thought deviant was deviant, homo was homo and hetero was a blend of two different "hetero people". :)
  • lonrad54
    Homosexuality is likely to become less common in future generations, because women around the world are - thankfully - gaining more and more control over their own fertility. Throughout most of human evolution, most women were coerced to bear offspring regardless of whether they were sexually attracted to the opposite sex. Hence, in our ancestors, genes that served to shut down attraction to the opposite sex (i.e. genes promoting homosexual inclinations) were readily passed on to future generations by women who would much rather have had sex only with other women, but who had no choice but to submit to sex with dominant males. With increasing frequency however, women who have sex with males today are largely just the ones who actually WANT to have sex with males. And the women who would prefer to have sex with just other women are no longer forced to bear offspring, and so the homosexual women of today are largely allowed to refrain from being forced to pass on their genes to future generations. Within just a few generations from now, it is quite possible that the whole concept of homosexuality will mostly be something that people read about in history books.
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