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Porter Goss’s Dishonest Attack on Congress

It’s infuriating, but it’s entertaining, to watch the same people who spent the better part of the last eight years using lies, secrecy, deception, political maneuvering, and outright intimidation to run a global torture regime on foreign alleged terrorists, alongside a domestic illegal surveillance program on U.S. citizens, pen op-eds in major media outlets attacking Congress for not doing enough to stop them, now that their lawlessness has been publicly revealed.

Exhibit A: former CIA Director Porter Goss’s overwrought piece in today’s Washington Post:

Since leaving my post as CIA director almost three years ago, I have remained largely silent on the public stage. I am speaking out now because I feel our government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage. We can’t have a secret intelligence service if we keep giving away all the secrets. Americans have to decide now.

A disturbing epidemic of amnesia seems to be plaguing my former colleagues on Capitol Hill. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, members of the committees charged with overseeing our nation’s intelligence services had no higher priority than stopping al-Qaeda. In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA’s “High Value Terrorist Program,” including the development of “enhanced interrogation techniques” and what those techniques were. This was not a one-time briefing but an ongoing subject with lots of back and forth between those members and the briefers.

Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.

Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:

– The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.

– We understood what the CIA was doing.

– We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.

– We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.

– On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.

I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed “memorandums for the record” suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately — to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president’s national security adviser — and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted. And shifted they have.

Marcy Wheeler deals with the creative linguistics (emphasis in original):

… look carefully at Goss’ language describing what they were briefed on.

In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA’s “High Value Terrorist Program,” including the development of “enhanced interrogation techniques” and what those techniques were.

[snip]

Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned.

Goss explains that the Gang of Four was briefed on “the development” of the torture program and “what those techniques were.” He implies strongly–but does not say it directly–that “waterboarding” was mentioned specifically. And he complains that the attendees should have understood that “the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed.”

Note what Pelosi has said:

“In that or any other briefing…we were not, and I repeat, were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation techniques were used,” said Pelosi. “What they did tell us is that they had some legislative counsel…opinions that they could be used, but not that they would.”

[snip]

“Further to the point was that if and when they would be used, they would brief Congress at that time,” said Pelosi. “I know that there’s some different interpretations coming out of that meeting. My colleague, the chairman of the [intelligence] committee, has said, well if they say that it’s legal you have to know they’re going to use it. Well, his experience is that he was a member of the CIA and later went on to head the CIA. Maybe his experience is that they’ll tell you one thing but may mean something else.”

Pelosi is referring to then-GOP Rep. Porter Goss. “My experience was they did not tell us they were using that, flat out. And any, any contention to the contrary is simply not true,” she said.

Porter Goss says Pelosi should have known “the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed.” But he doesn’t say she should have known “the techniques on which they were briefed had already been employed.” Which is a critical part of her complaint–that CIA did not tell Congress that waterboarding and other techniques “were used” … that “they were using that.” This briefing is always described as occuring in “fall 2002.” Even interpreting “fall” broadly to include all of September, that means the briefing took place after they had already waterboarded Abu Zubaydah 83 times in a month.

So whether or not Pelosi is arguing “waterboarding” was mentioned or not, even Goss appears to confirm one of Pelosi’s main points. The CIA did not reveal this was already taking place. Even in Goss’ understanding, they revealed only that waterboarding “was to be employed”–in the future.

And about that “memorandums for the record” remark: Which, or whose, memorandums is he referring to?

Jane Hamsher thinks it might be this one written by Jane Harman, in which she urges Scott Muller, then General Counsel at the CIA, not to destroy videotapes of Abu Zubaydah’s interrogation. Here is the last paragraph of that letter:

You discussed the fact that there is videotape of Abu Zubaydah following his capture that will be destroyed after the Inspector General finishes his inquiry.  I would urge the Agency to reconsider that plan.  Even if the videotape does not constitute an official record that must be preserved under the law, the videotape would be the best proof that the written record is accurate, if such record is called into question in the future.  The fact of destruction would reflect badly on the Agency.

And Muller’s response, in its entirety:

Thank you for your letter of 10 February following up on the briefing we gave you and Congressman Goss on 5 February concerning the Central Intelligence Agency’s limited use of the handful of specially approved interrogation techniques we described.  As we informed both you and the leadership of the Intelligence Committees last September, a number of Executive Branch lawyers including lawyers from the Department of Justice participated in the determination that, in the appropriate circumstances, use of these techniques is fully consistent with US law.  While I do not think it appropriate for me to comment on issues that are a matter of policy, much less the nature and extent of Executive Branch policy deliberations, I think it would be fair to assume that policy as well as legal matters have been addressed within the Executive Branch.

So there you go. At least one of the members of Congress who was briefed on the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” was alarmed that videotaped evidence might be destroyed, put her concerns in writing, and sent that written record to the top lawyer at the CIA. And that lawyer, Scott Muller, blew her off. And as we all know, the videotapes were destroyed.

In addition to blame-shifting via word play, former DCI Goss also regurgitates the messy porridge about the effectiveness of brutal interrogation tactics and the grave harm done to national security by releasing the torture memos (emphasis mine):

Circuses are not new in Washington, and I can see preparations being made for tents from the Capitol straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. The CIA has been pulled into the center ring before. The result this time will be the same: a hollowed-out service of diminished capabilities. After Sept. 11, the general outcry was, “Why don’t we have better overseas capabilities?” I fear that in the years to come this refrain will be heard again: once a threat — or God forbid, another successful attack — captures our attention and sends the pendulum swinging back. There is only one person who can shut down this dangerous show: President Obama.

Unfortunately, much of the damage to our capabilities has already been done. It is certainly not trust that is fostered when intelligence officers are told one day “I have your back” only to learn a day later that a knife is being held to it. After the events of this week, morale at the CIA has been shaken to its foundation.

We must not forget: Our intelligence allies overseas view our inability to maintain secrecy as a reason to question our worthiness as a partner. These allies have been vital in almost every capture of a terrorist.

The suggestion that we are safer now because information about interrogation techniques is in the public domain conjures up images of unicorns and fairy dust. We have given our enemy invaluable information about the rules by which we operate. The terrorists captured by the CIA perfected the act of beheading innocents using dull knives. Khalid Sheik Mohammed boasted of the tactic of placing explosives high enough in a building to ensure that innocents trapped above would die if they tried to escape through windows. There is simply no comparison between our professionalism and their brutality.

Our enemies do not subscribe to the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury. “Name, rank and serial number” does not apply to non-state actors but is, regrettably, the only question this administration wants us to ask. Instead of taking risks, our intelligence officers will soon resort to wordsmithing cables to headquarters while opportunities to neutralize brutal radicals are lost.

The days of fortress America are gone. We are the world’s superpower. We can sit on our hands or we can become engaged to improve global human conditions. The bottom line is that we cannot succeed unless we have good intelligence. Trading security for partisan political popularity will ensure that our secrets are not secret and that our intelligence is destined to fail us.

Improve global human conditions via simulating death by drowning, hanging people from the ceiling in contorted stress positions, beating them, putting them in pitch black confinement boxes with insects crawling over them, not letting them sleep for 11 days at a stretch, and more, much more?

The CIA’s own inspector general concluded in 2004 that there is “no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any ’specific imminent attacks,’ ” as reported yesterday by McClatchy (emphasis mine):

“It is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program,” Steven G. Bradbury, then the Justice Department’s principal deputy assistant attorney general, wrote in a May 30, 2005, memo to CIA General Counsel John Rizzo, one of four released last week by the Obama administration.

“As the IG Report notes, it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks. And because the CIA has used enhanced techniques sparingly, ‘there is limited data on which to assess their individual effectiveness’,” Bradbury wrote, quoting the IG report.

Nevertheless, Bradbury concluded in his May 2005 memos that the program had been effective, although the still secret reports by Inspector General John Helgerson had been disseminated a full year earlier.

Most of the IG report’s contents are still unknown because the CIA will not declassify it — even though two of the torture memos released last week quote from it extensively:

The New York Times first reported Helgerson’s inspector general’s report in November 2005, but details of its contents have remained secret. A version of the report that the CIA turned over to the ACLU in May 2008 in response to a lawsuit consisted primarily of heavy black lines and notations of sections that had been redacted.

A CIA spokesman said Friday that he knew of no plans to release a more complete version.

Jameel Jaffer, the director of the ACLU’s National Security Project, said the declassification of the Helgerson report is the subject of a court case before the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

“We hope that we’ll be able to negotiate a less redacted version of that report,” Jaffer said, adding that the release of the Justice Department memos has increased pressure for more revelations.

“It’s a crucial document,” he said. “It will shed light on what kind of measures the CIA was using before August 2002? and whether they exceeded limits imposed by the Justice Department lawyers.

Two of the memos declassified last week, however, cite the IG report at least 34 times, often quoting it verbatim. Those citations provide the first glimpse of the spy agency’s inspector general’s analysis of the interrogation program.

And what do those citations tell us?

The Bradbury memos that cite the inspector general’s report reveal that officials at CIA headquarters insisted on the repeated waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah, the first prisoner to undergo the technique, even after the interrogators on the scene sought to discontinue the technique.

“According to the IG Report, the CIA, at least initially, could not always distinguish detainees who had information but were successfully resisting interrogation from those who did not actually have information,” Bradbury wrote in his May 30, 2005, memo. “On at least one occasion, this may have resulted in what might be deemed in retrospect to have been the unnecessary use of enhanced techniques.

“On that occasion,” Bradbury continued, “although the on-scene interrogation team judged Zubaydah to be compliant, elements within CIA Headquarters still believed he was withholding information . . . . At the direction of CIA headquarters, interrogators therefore used the waterboard one more time on Zubaydah.”

Bradbury wrote that CIA headquarters dispatched officials to observe that waterboarding session. After that session, “these officials reported that enhanced techniques were no longer needed,” Bradbury wrote, citing the IG report.

Cross-posted from Comments at Left Field.

  • StockBoySF
    I thought that it was Congresses job to pass laws and the responsibility of the president to ensure those laws were enforced.

    What oversight attempts the minority Dems in Congress did try to exert with the Bush administration were rebuffed.

    As the CIA top attorney's response to Harmon's letter indicates, "As we informed both you and the leadership of the Intelligence Committees last September, a number of Executive Branch lawyers including lawyers from the Department of Justice participated in the determination that, in the appropriate circumstances, use of these techniques is fully consistent with US law."

    I would like out point out that Americans have tried for years to get to the bottom of many of the Bush administrations transgressions and have been railroaded at every stop.

    I'll also point out that Bush said, "You're either with us or against us." And painted the Dems as weak on terrorism for even questioning what he did. The Dems were painted as weak on terrorists and lost support, until finally the damage of the Bush administration really could not be swept under the rug.

    From Goss' piece, "I am speaking out now because I feel our government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage."

    and

    "The bottom line is that we cannot succeed unless we have good intelligence. Trading security for partisan political popularity will ensure that our secrets are not secret and that our intelligence is destined to fail us."

    I think the fundamental issue is whether or not the Bush administration broke national and international laws. I didn't know that prosecuting alleged criminals for their crimes was suddenly a partisan issue.

    The Bush administration wasn't afraid to lock up innocent people in Gitmo for years on end without a trial, or "disappear" them.

    These people who are NOW putting up roadblocks to investigating torture under the Bush administration are the same people who put up roadblocks to investigating torture under the Bush administration years ago.
  • AustinRoth
    Un-freaking-believable.

    You defend Pelosi for her lying, um, sorry, splitting of hairs, convenient memory lapses and totally implausible denials, while parsing the hell out of a statement that had to walk a line between Goss speaking out against the obvious misrepresentations that Pelosi and others are laying out to gullible leftists, while making sure he does not make a categorical statement of fact about items that are classified (the exact conversations of a CIA briefing to Congressional leaders).

    This is not about defending or condemning torture - this is all about defending the Left's pets from being held accountable for their complicity in the Left's current outrage. "Only Republcans could have gone along with these interrogation techniques" is the underyling message.

    Hah.

    The denials by Democrats in Congress not only do not meet the smell test, they are obviously huge, heaping piles of dung being dumped on the public by the truckload.
  • DaGoat
    There are records of the Intelligence Committee meetings, what was said and who was in attendance, are there not? The fairest way to solve this is de-classify all relevant information.

    And you're right AR, this is the Democrats laying the groundwork to protect their own. So much for all those high ideals.
  • gnarlytrombone
    No, there aren't any records, because these weren't Intelligence Committee meetings. That's the problem. The four members of Congress attending these meetings had neither the authority to accept or reject the program and could not discuss it with anyone outside the room.

    The administration was bound by the Security Act to notify the full committees about a policy change of this scope. It didn't do so, because it knew the committees had the power to kill it by cutting funding.
  • kathyedits
    Actually, AR and DG, many bloggers on the left have explicitly stated that they have absolutely no problem with congressional Democrats facing appropriate consequences if it turns out they were complicit in specific illegal acts. Not one right-wing blogger or reader that I am aware of has stated that Republican leaders and former members of the Bush administration are trying to scapegoat Congress members like Pelosi and Harman for not conducting proper oversight when they (the Bush administration) either made it impossible or extremely difficult for them to do that oversight (as gnarlytrombone pointed out), or, in instances when there was pushback or concern expressed, just completely ignored it. The Bush administration was convinced it was a law unto itself. They both impeded or prevented oversight and, where that failed, ran right over it.

    Having said that, if you guys are so upset with Democrats "protecting their own," then I'm sure we can agree that Eric Holder should appoint a special prosecutor and conduct a complete investigation of everyone involved with the torture program.
  • AustinRoth
    What I am galled at is the pseudo-outrage of Pelosi and others about interrogation techniques they actually fully supported at the time. At their faux indignation that these things could have happened, and their flat-out lying about their knowledge and complicity while try to raise lynch mobs against the Bush administration.

    I actually have no problem with those who have been consistent and forthright in their concerns and objections. I may not agree with them all, but I also agree with some. But the bottom line is what I said first - it is not about being for or against torture/harsh interrogation - it is the willingness of some, like Pelosi, to engage in a level of hypocrisy, likely damaging to the country, while lying through her teeth, for personal and partisan ambitions.
  • gnarlytrombone
    I think Dem leadership should be shamed relentlessly and pay a political price for their cowardly equivocations on this and other issues, like wiretapping. But as far as I'm aware, even if they nodded their heads to the torture program as Goss describes, they did nothing illegal. It's therefore ridiculous to suggest there's an equivalence between their role and that of top-level administration officials. The latter initiated, designed and carried out the program and should be not only be shamed, but incarcerated.
  • SteveK
    What I am galled at is the psycho-outrage of those on the right that keep trying to make something out of security briefings that both a) prohibited congress persons of either party from disclosing or discussing anything that took place in said meetings; and, b) is still classified and therefore those complaining are doing so with absolutely NO knowledge of what these people did or didn't know.

    I actually have a problem with those like AR who try to sound like they know what they're talking about when NONE of us know what happened... Lighten up, you're starting to sound like nutters.

    As none of us know what went on or who knows what how dare you rant and rave about "levels of hypocrisy" and "lying through (ones) teeth". Good God...
  • SteveK
    "But as far as I'm aware..."

    And how far is that gnalytrombone?
  • gnarlytrombone
    You tell me. What law could they have possibly broken? Under what law could "failure of oversight" be prosecuted?
  • joeaudio
    (for AustinRoth)
    I agree with you somewhat about the "pseudo-outrage of Pelosi." But I think her claim is that she was only shown a very small amount of the whole picture. Her mistake was believing that she was fully informed. Big mistake. I'm not a big fan of Pelosi.

    What I don't understand about your position is why you consider any investigation to be "lynch mobs against the Bush administration." Many of us who are appalled at what happened want to see all of the offenders revealed and prosecuted where warranted. Democrats and Republicans, publicly shame all of them.

    Now, do YOU believe that the torture program was a good thing? Are you willing do defend it? A lot of politicians are running for cover, where do you stand? Should people who authorized sadistic torture be prosecuted or pardoned?

    I'm curious whether this is just a partisan, defend your own thing for you, or whether you actually have any moral beliefs.
  • DaGoat
    Thanks to all for setting me straight on the nature of the meetings.

    I think all you have to do is look around the web and see an investigation of this will be a huge partisan mess, and I'm talking about both sides here. The country is already in a crisis. If the Obama administration goes down this road (and I know it's not just Obama, the AG and Congress also have responsibilities) he is going to spend a lot of political capital and time on it. My impression is that Obama wants to move on and I don't blame him.

    I think either he commits to releasing all relevant information or he'll have to drop it.
  • joeaudio
    DaGoat:
    absolutely a "huge partisan mess."
    but we have a thing called "rule of law."
    we either support it or we abandon it.

    of course Obama doesn't want to be the prosecuter.
    that's why we have a "Justice Department."
    or at least we did, before Cheney-Bush dismantled it
  • DaGoat
    or at least we did, before Cheney-Bush dismantled it

    As I said, this will be a huge partisan mess.
  • joeaudio
    again, in agreement, it's "a huge partisan mess."

    do you disagree that Cheney-Bush dismantled Justice?
    have you heard of Alberto Gonzales?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/washington/27...
  • JSpencer
    Once again, there are many on the left who are fine with holding democrats responsible if necessary. For them this isn't about partisanship as much as it is about accountability . On the other hand, partisanship seems to be the only aspect of this I hear the right hollering about. As an American citizen I want an investigation and accountability period. I don't give a rip about protecting either party. Bring on the investigation, shine a bright light on this, and make justice work. The sooner this is done, the sooner we can put this celebration of shamefully low (and unAmerican) standards behind us.
  • joeaudio
    I'm very disapointed that my questions (that I believed relevant to the discussion and somewhat provocative) to AustinRoth and DaGoat have gone unanswered.
    Perhaps they've taken their bats and balls and gone home.
    Another time, perhaps.
  • kathyedits
    But as far as I'm aware, even if they nodded their heads to the torture program as Goss describes, they did nothing illegal. It's therefore ridiculous to suggest there's an equivalence between their role and that of top-level administration officials.

    Of course they didn't. I agree with you. But since I support appointing a special prosecutor to investigate and gather all evidence and facts out there to see if prosecutions are warranted, I am more than willing to let that investigation go where it goes and reveal whatever exists in the places it takes us. If members of Congress conspired with Dick Cheney or David Addington or the OLC attorneys to authorize torture. then by all means prosecute them along with Cheney, Addington, Rumsfeld, Bush, Yoo, Bybee, Bradbury, Haynes, et al.

    If, however, what they did was fail or fall short in their oversight duties, not stand up to David Addington forcefully enough when he screamed at them to back off, then I do believe that falls short of being prosecutable criminal acts.

    I just think that, since folks like AR and DG are determined to believe that insufficient forcefulness in oversight duties is equal in heinousness to creating, authorizing, and implementing a torture program and then finding the legalese to justify it, we might as well take advantage of that to enlist their help and support in calling for Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor and vigorously gather evidence for possible prosecutions.
  • StockBoySF
    I've commented a few days ago on who I think we should prosecute:

    "But my feeling is that we should go after the leaders who put in place these procedures. We should leave the soldiers (and members of Congress, of both parties) alone, unless there is proof that they helped form the torture policies. "

    I see several different areas of involvement (some may overlap with certain individuals):

    1.) Those who wanted to torture.
    2.) Those who were asked to help formulate the torture policy (or, more accurately formulate the guidelines and write legal memos)
    3.) Those who were fully informed of the program and gave approval (when their approval was necessary)
    4.) Those who knew about the full program
    5.) Those who knew enough about the program to know that the we were breaking national and international laws.
    6.) Those who carried out their orders (regardless of whether they thought laws were being broken).
    7.) Those who knew about certain aspects of the program but did not know specific cases of the laws being broken.
    8.) Those who knew certain aspects of the program but had no indication that we were breaking laws.
    9.) Those who suspected the program existed but no details nor confirmation.
    10.) The average man on the street.

    I think it's obvious that people who fall in the first three categories (down to "fully informed and gave approval) should be prosecuted.

    Four and five are grey zones because they knew about the program but did not participate in its development or implementation.

    Categories six and seven are more grey zone (though six is more of a "yes" and seven is more of a "no").

    The last three categories are "No prosecution".

    Granted since the GOP controlled the WH, formulated the policies and carried them out there will be more Republicans than Dems prosecuted.
  • AustinRoth
    OK, let's try one more time, then I am just going to accept you are being willfully ignorant Kathy.

    I never said 'prosecute', although if you want I guess you could interpret 'held accountable' to mean I implied that. Now, as I don't think Bush or the CIA or the lawyers or ANY of them should be prosecuted, and have made that position known, why in the world you would think I was calling for Pelosi, et. al., to have a special prosecutor assigned or to be prosecuted is beyond me.

    I meant be held accountable the political and public sense, in the contempt she deserves. Holding her in contempt for hypocrisy about her position on what happened is a separate issue from the whole torture argument and if so who is responsible question.

    And in the end, Pelosi's defense is the Kitty Genovese excuse, and you and others are trying to defend that.

    Now, I have to get up at 4 AM for a flight to the east coast, and will be out of pocket for work pretty much for a few days, so I will apologize in advance for not continuing this discussion.
  • joeaudio
    Austin,
    you're back (but haven't responded to my questions to you.)
    you say:
    "Now, as I don't think Bush or the CIA or the lawyers or ANY of them should be prosecuted, and have made that position known,"

    Why, in a nation a of laws should people not be prosecuted for clear commissions of crime?
  • joeaudio
    Austin, really,
    "Now, I have to get up at 4 AM for a flight to the east coast, and will be out of pocket for work pretty much for a few days, so I will apologize in advance for not continuing this discussion."

    we all circumnavigate the world daily. not an excuse.
    "not continuing this discussion."
    because you can't answer a legitimate question.
    bye bye baby.
  • gnarlytrombone
    Holding her in contempt for hypocrisy about her position

    Oh, spare me, Holden Caulfield. You're more concerned about hypocrisy than torture?
  • StockBoySF
    Austin, have a safe trip!

    I don't know what Pelosi or others in Congress knew about the torture policies. I would hope the investigation with regards to any eventual prosecutions would reveal that information.

    But I do know that the Bush administration withheld information on a variety of subjects from Congress, especially the Dems, over the years. So just because some people may either say or speculate that Pelosi or others had the information does not make it true.

    I can't help but question statements made by people with little or no credibility, who are trying to save their own skins by any means possible.

    If there is enough evidence to prosecute Bush administration officials, then there should be evidence to determine what Pelosi and others knew.

    The Bush administration had records of other aspects of the torture policy / debate, including top secret legal opinions and videotapes of torture sessions. So if this information was given to Pelosi and others why didn't the Bush administration have records of this? They had records of other top secret meetings. It was, after all, the Bush administration who made the ultimate call as to how much could (or should) be recorded in these meetings.
  • DaGoat
    I'm very disapointed that my questions (that I believed relevant to the discussion and somewhat provocative) to AustinRoth and DaGoat have gone unanswered.
    Perhaps they've taken their bats and balls and gone home.


    Actually I went to bed.

    To answer your question, yes I have heard of Alberto Gonzales.

    On dismantling the Justice Dept, it's a moot point since it's now Obama's Justice Dept. If your point is Bush damaged the Justice Dept so irreparably it can never be used again, then I disagree.
  • DaGoat
    For them this isn't about partisanship as much as it is about accountability . On the other hand, partisanship seems to be the only aspect of this I hear the right hollering about.

    I don't agree, I think there is a lot of discussion on the proper way to handle government employees who were following directions doing things they were told were legal. I think there are also some questions about the use of methods that cause limited discomfort but may not rise to the level of "torture". In fact I think that will be the crux of the debate, namely the lawyers were tasked with defining torture so the CIA could use methods right up to the point of torture but not exceed it. In my opinion they did a bad job of it, something that deserves impeachment or disbarment but probably not criminal charges.

    Now there are a lot of right-wingers who seem to be justifying torture on the basis of the prisoners being bad people that deserve to be tortured. That ignores the fact that really what we're talking about is interrogation, something that is not designed to be punitive, so this argument just doesn't hold water.

    On the left are a lot of people who just want to see Bush/Cheney, et al punished for something. In a sense they are analogous to the right-wingers who really just want bad things to happen to people they don't like. In fairness there are plenty of people on the left who just want the truth to come out - I read Jane Hamsher and many of her commenters agreeing with that approach.

    My point though was that no matter how honestly we believe that our positions are right and true there will be a huge cost to this type of investigation, and I don't mean a financial cost. It will raise partisan feelings at a time that Obama is asking people for support on many other issues. It will dominate the media for months to years. It will force Obama, Pelosi and their staff to focus on things that will detract from other important tasks. It will harm Obama's relationship with the CIA, something that is reportedly already happening.

    In fact I could make a case for the right to let the investigations go on. The GOP can't get much weaker so don't have much to lose. The Democrats are on top, Obama is very popular and they have a lot to lose. If Obama and Pelosi are bogged down with this it will make pushing through their own agendas much more difficult. Maybe the GOP could get lucky and see a high-ranking Democrat forced to resign.

    I think Obama sees this and would like this problem to go away. Despite the talk about indictments and arrests being required by law, I think Obama has the power to make this go away. From a pragmatic standpoint that might be the right thing to do but from a justice standpoint it might be the wrong thing to do, and there lies the problem.
  • joeaudio
    I don't know that pragmatism has anything to do with it. We either uphold the law or abandon it.
    Glenn Greenwald makes the point this way:
    "The inability of so many people (both Republicans and Obama-loyal Democrats) to view the need for prosecutions independent of political considerations is a potent sign of how sick our political culture has become. The need for criminal investigations is motivated by one simple, consummately apolitical fact: serious and brutal crimes were committed at the highest levels of the government, ones that left a trail of many victims. A country that purports to live under the rule of law has no choice but to treat its most powerful members who commit serious crimes exactly the same as ordinary citizens who do so. That has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. "
    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/...
  • DaGoat
    I don't know that pragmatism has anything to do with it. We either uphold the law or abandon it.

    I have seen this compared to Ford's pardon of Nixon. You could make the case to indict or make the case just to move on.
  • joeaudio
    very good point.
    many have argued that Ford pardoning Nixon and more importantly, Bush I pardoning Iran-Contra criminals, allowed those same criminals to get back into government and cause new problems.
  • kathyedits
    In fairness there are plenty of people on the left who just want the truth to come out ...

    And if the truth, once it's come out, points to war crimes having been committed, then there should be prosecutions.
  • kathyedits
    My point though was that no matter how honestly we believe that our positions are right and true there will be a huge cost to this type of investigation, and I don't mean a financial cost.

    Has there been a huge cost to the Bush administration's design, authorization, and use of torture?

    The Democrats are on top, Obama is very popular and they have a lot to lose. If Obama and Pelosi are bogged down with this it will make pushing through their own agendas much more difficult.

    When would be a better time to investigate and prosecute? If Obama were unpopular, would that make it a good time to prosecute?

    I think Obama sees this and would like this problem to go away.

    Who wouldn't?

    Despite the talk about indictments and arrests being required by law, I think Obama has the power to make this go away.

    Does he? Is saying no to investigations and prosecutions going to make it go away?

    I have seen this compared to Ford's pardon of Nixon.

    And how did that work out for Ford? Did it increase his political capital?

    You could make the case to indict or make the case just to move on.

    "Move on" is one of those expressions that means different things to different people. What does it mean to you? Please be as specific and concise as you can.
  • kathyedits
    I never said 'prosecute', although if you want I guess you could interpret 'held accountable' to mean I implied that. Now, as I don't think Bush or the CIA or the lawyers or ANY of them should be prosecuted, and have made that position known, why in the world you would think I was calling for Pelosi, et. al., to have a special prosecutor assigned or to be prosecuted is beyond me.

    It's beyond me, too. Probably because I don't think that and never said it. Or implied it.
  • AustinRoth
    I just think that, since folks like AR and DG are determined to believe that insufficient forcefulness in oversight duties is equal in heinousness to creating, authorizing, and implementing a torture program and then finding the legalese to justify it, we might as well take advantage of that to enlist their help and support in calling for Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor and vigorously gather evidence for possible prosecutions.

    Gee, sorry Kathy. I guess I misread this paragraph of yours.
  • StockBoySF
    I don't know what all the talk about the "cost" of any eventual prosecutions is about....

    Financial: yes, it will be huge, but then the GOP was willing to spend $40 million of the taxpayers money to go after Clinton for an indiscretion in the WH.

    Politically: yes, to anyone who participated. Why would we want to shield criminals?

    Socially: yes, this country is divided along party lines, and I'm sorry that it was primarily one particular party who devised and implemented the torture policy, but that doesn't excuse them.

    Morally: of course that to me is the biggest cost and I think trumps all else. For how can we claim to be a moral, upstanding nation and demand other countries to treat our citizens well when we are willing to throw their citizens in prison for years on end, without trial and torture them? The decision **not** to pursue charges will have a huge, incalculable moral cost for the US for the rest of our history. We will always be known as the country which could not prosecute its own citizens for torture, crimes which we have prosecuted others in the past for. How would we expect any other country to take us seriously? And why should they? That's why we need to prosecute.

    We need to do whatever is necessary to put the people responsible for torture (and whatever other crimes) behind bars. They broke the laws, disgraced us as a nation and turned us into a banana republic, unless we are willing to actually punish the perpetrators. Whoever they may be.

    I'm wondering why the Republican leaders, who are all about personal responsibility, family values and upholding the law to the letter aren't out there asking for these investigations. After all with Clinton and a sexual indiscretion the GOP howled that Clinton was unfit to lead this country and impeached him, which was costly and lengthy.

    Perhaps if the GOP hadn't spent all its time and energy impeaching Clinton then Congress and the White House could have focused on truly important issues, including national security issues, affecting the US.
  • Long before the torture memos were released, I proposed what I still believe Obama should do. He should direct his Justice Department to "obey the law and honor international treaties." Simple, to the point, fully legal, nonpartisan, and all ranting from both sides aside, there is no excuse for our Justice Department to do any other thing. He can repeat to the public exactly what he told the Justice Department. "Obey the law and honor international treaties we have signed." It is his constitutional duty to do that and it is not partisan. It is completely defensible without question, and anyone here who asserts our DOJ should not do these two things argues against the rule of law.

    DaGoat: "I think there are also some questions about the use of methods that cause limited discomfort but may not rise to the level of "torture"."

    Let's not try to finesse this. Imagine your son or daughter naked and freezing, with a dog collar, urinated and defecated on, humiliated and degraded, kept in the dark for weeks, then having their hearing damaged by megaphones in the ears, beaten, kicked and nearly drowned. Repeatedly.

    That's what we're talking about. Most have now been released without charge. We never had any evidence they had committed crimes or taken up arms against us. Unless we think these "mild discomforts" are appropriate treatment for our soldiers, we must deplore, investigate, and I believe, prosecute. If we don't have the will or the nerve to prosecute, then honor an extradition treaty and let them be prosecuted by a country whose citizens have been victims of crimes.

    Are all of you Bush-league defenders unaware of reciprocity? Do you consent to these tactics being legalized internationally and used against our service personnel? Do you consent to discard our extradition treaties such that those who break our laws and flee the country can not be returned for trial?
  • HemmD
    Just to mention two separate,but important points:

    1. At the end of WWII, the US executed Japanese soldiers who water boarded US soldiers. How can anyone call for "moving on" unless "the rule of law" is applied equally.

    2. The call for a special prosecutor has one unintended consequence. The moment one is assigned, all documents become hidden from public scrutiny. It was 18 months with the Libby case, and many(Rove et al) were given multiple chances to revise their stories. The result was a black out of news and a lack of clear judgment. Watergate, on the other hand, was largely revealed in public, and even though it was a three ring circus,the truth came out.

    The partisanship that the Right fears is also it's guarantee that all will be interviewed in public, and that's the appropriate place for these proceedings in a Democracy.
  • Agree HemmD. I would like to see fact finding first and definitely not anything that sends all the results into a black hole. The more people learn about this, the more support there will be for action, IMO.
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