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North Dakota to Take a Run at Roe?

It’s certainly looking like they might, since their House of Representatives has now passed a bill which is obviously designed to do just that.

The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.

That means a fetus could not be legally aborted without the procedure being considered murder.

Our friend Ed Morrissey of Hot Air, always a happy resident of the anti-choice – sorry… “pro-life” – camp, couldn’t be happier.

Let’s hope that North Dakota decides to fight. Roe deserves to be overturned just on the overreach alone of justices finding “emanations” from “penumbras” to instill their own view of public policy. This debate should have remained with the states, and it’s about time that the states demanded their voice in it.

As I’ve previously explained ad nauseum, I’m one of those annoying people who would prefer that this not be a legal question at all and that the government keep its nose out of the private affairs between a patient and her doctor. Since that’s obviously not possible, though, I come down reluctantly on the side of the pro-choice folks while remaining willing to entertain reasonable restrictions to the procedure. But in the end, questions such as the ones this North Dakota law present will come down to a set of legal technicalities.

First, as Ed points out, is the question of whether or not the state Senate will agree to pass the bill, triggering the immediate and inevitable challenge and series of long, costly court cases. That’s a might big can of worms to open up. And even if they do, assuming it goes all the way up the chain, would the current crop of Supremes even agree to hear the case? Would they be inclined to overturn Roe if they did?

They will probably face a few challenges which didn’t get addressed in Roe, at least one on a technicality, and North Dakota may find itself dealing with the law of unintended consequences. On the first issue there is a question which has been brought up before leading to anti-abortion enthusiasts trying to bat it away as a technicality. Many people assume that the Constitution is silent on this subject, and they’re almost right. But the argument has been made that we already have a definition of when the rights of citizens begin, if not the moment when life itself takes root. For this, we point readers to the 14th amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Did you catch the key phrase there? Born or naturalized. So while you may be “alive” or “a person” at the moment of conception, your rights and protections don’t kick in until you somehow manage to exit the mother’s body alive. A technicality, you say? Definitely. But bigger cases have hinged on less in the past.

The unintended consequences scenario may be even more interesting as applied to the proposed North Dakota legislation, and it would apply to fertility clinics. Doctors in such facilities regularly harvest more eggs than they plan or hope to use in order to avoid undue stress on the prospective mother. If they get lucky and it works on the first try, and if the couple later decides they don’t want any more children, the frozen embryos wind up being tossed out with the medical waste. (Particularly if the doctor is a pro-lifer who finds it wrong to use such zygotes for stem cell research.) If this law is in place as worded, would a doctor who disposed of such fertilized eggs – which now have “all the rights of any person” – be guilty of hundreds of counts of murder? How could they not?

People like Dan Ruby, the bill’s sponsor, would probably love the opportunity to shut down all the abortion clinics, toss the doctors into a dark cell and throw away the key. But would he be as eager to go around jailing fertility doctors who are trying to help couples conceive? If those fertilized eggs are people with a full set of rights, what justification will he use to say that it’s acceptable to toss them into the trash simply because an abortion wasn’t involved? Would the government need to advice childless couples that their barren status was simply God’s will and they should just deal with it? This might be yet another case of being careful what you wish for.

  • casualobserver
    and that the government keep its nose out of the private affairs between a patient and her doctor. Since that’s obviously not possible, though, I come down reluctantly on the side of the pro-choice folks while remaining willing to entertain reasonable restrictions to the procedure.

    Would your reasonable restrictions include the goverment also keeping its hand out of my pocket in subsidizing reckless lifestyle choices of others?

    If so, you can be back on my POTUS ballot in 2012.
  • Rambie
    "I’m one of those annoying people who would prefer that this not be a legal question at all and that the government keep its nose out of the private affairs between a patient and her doctor. Since that’s obviously not possible, though, I come down reluctantly on the side of the pro-choice folks while remaining willing to entertain reasonable restrictions to the procedure."

    100% agree Jazz.

    CO, we can talk. What policies specifically is your statement, "..subsidizing reckless lifestyle choices of others" referring too?
  • Ryan
    Now if only I could figure out why "I... would prefer that this not be a legal question at all and that the government keep its nose out of the private affairs between a patient and her doctor" does not constitute a completely pro-choice position.

    That said, the bill is yet another example of social conservatives trying to ban 'sin'. Nobody seriously believes that a 5-day embryo is a person, as evidenced by a) the large number of people who would allow abortion for, say, rape victims (sorry honey, being raped doesn't give you the right to murder an innocent third party) and b) the fact that pro-life groups don't applaud those who shoot up abortion clinics. (Imagine how long a government-sanctioned clinic that killed, say, five-year-olds would last.)

    Well, maybe a few people do, and they're in jail for following it through. But 99% don't.
  • Ryan, while the difference may be subtle or perhaps just quibbling over linguistics, I see a preference for keeping the government out of all medical decisions and personal matters as more of a "small l" libertarian approach. This is opposed to actively going out to support Roe v. Wade, opposing proposed restrictions such as parental consent or spousal notification, arguing over government funding for proceedures, etc. which I would see as more of an "active" and "completely pro-choice position."

    *shrug*
  • Ryan
    Jazz, the first three items on your list are cases where once again, the "completely pro-choice position" is the small-l libertarian approach as well. Roe in most cases guarantees your right to decide for yourself, parental consent is quite obviously bringing one or two additional people with veto power into the matter, and spousal notification is again an obvious attempt to a) utterly violate your privacy by ensuring that someone else gets to find out you're pregnant, and b) stop you from having an abortion because you're afraid of what will happen if your husband finds out. When a right is enshrined at the federal level you already have maximal freedom, and if you overturn Roe then your personal freedoms can only be restricted, not enhanced.
  • AustinRoth
    This is window dressing. This bill/law will NOT get SCOTUS to overturn Roe.
  • I agree with Austin - Roe is, as they say, safe as houses for the next four years, because there are five votes on the court to retain it and a President who will replace any retirees with a stridently pro-Roe nominee. The real issue for pro-choicers over the next four years isn't what will be struck down, but what will survive: restrictions that go beyond the terms of the bargain Justice Kennedy thought he struck in Casey. Hence, for example, his opinion a couple of terms ago in the Carhart case, which stressed that the federal ban on partial-birth abortion met Casey's standard. This is also likely to make the court less willing to grant cert in abortion cases: when Kennedy's vote can't be predicted, the other four on either side might be skittish about granting review and losing his vote.

    Always amusing to visit the soi-disant "Moderate" Voice and find a post that would be equally at home on the Huffington Post, Jazz.
  • Don Quijote
    CO, we can talk. What policies specifically is your statement, "..subsidizing reckless lifestyle choices of others" referring too?


    I believe that CO doesn't want his tax dollars paying for abortions, I just hope he doesn't mind his tax dollars supporting an unwanted child for the next 18 years. Makes that abortion look really inexpensive...
  • Balfegor
    Re: "Did you catch the key phrase there? Born or naturalized. So while you may be “alive” or “a person” at the moment of conception, your rights and protections don’t kick in until you somehow manage to exit the mother’s body alive. A technicality, you say? Definitely. But bigger cases have hinged on less in the past."

    You need to read the text a little more carefully if you're going to try and make that particular textual argument. Note that when the text reads "born or naturalised," it is defining citizens, not persons. Clearly, the text contemplates that there be people who are either not born in the US or not naturalised in the US -- they're the ones who can't be citizens. It is entirely possible that the text contemplates people not yet born at all. And there's the rub. When you look a little further, the text talks about citizens, but then -- when discussing "life, liberty, or property," -- it switches to persons. The text does not say what you are trying to make it say.
  • elrod
    I just wish well-meaning opponents of abortion could come with some practical solutions to reduce the numbers of abortions. I actually do believe that abortion is, essentially, murder. I also believe, however, that people of good faith disagree on the power of the state to protect the life of the fetus before viability. The answer is not banning abortions outright but doing everything possible to give women alternatives - contraception, adoption, comprehensive sex ed, etc.
  • Gualberto
    Balfegor is right, citizenship is one thing, being a person is another. Thus while a person may be citizen, he also may not be. Take for example, immigrants. They are not citizens, but because they are persons, the government cannot take away their right to life, liberty or property without due process. Thus, although a human being may need to be born in a state to be a citizen thereof, he need not be born to be a person, and the most fundamental liberties apply to all persons, not just citizens. Therefore, the language you quote actually says the opposite of what you interpret it to say.

    It's not the easiest concept to understand, but I think the Supreme Court Justices are plenty smart to see it. The question is are they intellectually honest enough?
  • StockBoySF
    Correct me if I'm wrong.. but I think ND is framing this as a states' rights issue... not a privacy issue... I wouldn't be surprised if teh current SCOTUS heard this case and ruled in favor of broader states' rights... I suspect that Obama has a stricter view of the US Constitution than many liberals would like to believe.

    But I agree with Jazz... I'm pro-life but support pro-choice policies because it's none of my business what other people do. If I had God's answers then that would be something else. I only know my beliefs and I believe that life is sacred, including the unborn. But I do see how others might view embryos and fetuses differently.
  • AustinRoth
    The 'states rights' argument is also a loser. As much as a lot of us who do not support Roe state that as the exact reason we do not support Roe but in general support abortion rights (as it is a legislative issue, not a courts issue, IMHO), overturning Roe on states rights would open up a HUGE slew of other rulings, having nothing to do with Roe, to review and reinterpretation by lower courts and the appeals courts. The disarray it would cause in general jurisprudence is severe enough that it will never happen.

    Many of those rulings are pets of the right, btw.
  • Balfegor, your attempts to make every American document seem as if it had been penned by a ham fisted social conservative are endearing, but you completely miss the entire point of the "technicality" aspect of the argument. In this case, you can leave the entire issue of abortion, murder and who is a "person" out of it and still reach the same conclusion I'm pondering. Would the law, as currently written in N.D. stand on its merits? It includes the phrase that a fertilized egg "has all the rights" as...

    The 14th amendment doesn't say that you can murder people who are not citizens with impunity or anything of the sort. What it DOES define is who has the specified rights. And it does specifically say that "all persons born" have them. On that strange technicality a judge could, particularly if they would like to dodge an comfortable issue, say that the law fails the smell test because it is in direct contradiction to the first sentence of the 14th. That's why it's a technicality. They don't even need to look at the issue of abortion or murder to shoot it down.
  • Balfegor
    I don't follow your reply. Are you trying to tell me that a state government cannot affirm that a person neither born nor naturalised in the US has particular rights while in that state? It would seem your logic would apply just as much to any other non-citizens, after all, not just fetuses (assuming fetus personhood for the argument). I don't think the US Constitution is restrictive on states recognising more rights for non-citizens than are recognised in the Constitution or under Federal Law.

    Furthermore, the rights you are talking about are only the privileges and immunities of US citizens. The other rights in the 14th amendment -- life, liberty, property, equal protection -- are all guaranteed to all persons without restriction on birth or naturalisation. It's just not accurate to say that the rights of the 14th Amendment apply only to "all persons born [in the United States]."
  • You raise some interesting questions, Balfegor, no doubt. To piggyback on your proposal, let's take a look at some other possibilities. Probably one of the easiest and best documented "rights" would likely be suffrage. Looking at Section two of the 14th we find all sorts of phrasing about who you can *not* deny the vote to. Phrases such as "all persons in each state excluding Indians not taxed" appear, along with mention of when you can *not* deny the vote to citizens of the United States and residents of the states. Again in amendments 15, 19, 23, 24 and 26 we learn more of who you must give the power of the vote, but does it ever get around to specifying who you can *not* give the vote to? So, by your argument, could Maine pass a new law giving the right to vote to Canadians or any other non-citizens who move into the state and establish residence, regardless of their lack of US citizenship? (In New York it only takes 30 days and a utility bill to establish residency.)

    I'm not asking that in a sarcastic fashion. Reading your arguments, perhaps there is no constitutional barrier to extending the rights on the unborn or the non-citizen to equal or even exceed the rights assured to citizens. Or is there? I mean, does that sound right to you? Again, we seem to be focusing too much on the specifics of abortion here. Can ND pass a law saying that some class of people not typically included in the above have "all the rights" as any citizen? Not just the right to life, liberty, etc. but "ALL the rights?" If we're to follow your line of thinking, then there is virtually no right of any sort which an individual state couldn't assign to anyone for any reason.

    Let's also ask where, exactly, the Incorporation Doctrine plays into this question. Some of the rights which have been considered to be "fundamental rights" by the SCOTUS, as detailed in some but not all of the Bill of Rights are mandatory for the states, but others, such as the second amendment, are not. But just because some are not mandatory, that doesn't mean that the states can not assign them as they see fit.

    If you allow ND to assign "all the rights" to a person "not born" or not a citizen, etc. what sort of door are we opening for additional unintended consequences? Again, you do raise interesting questions, but they just seem to fail in the court of common sense. (Not that "common sense" has ever stopped courts from doing things, of course.)
  • DLS
    What's amusing is that this effort is on a more sound basis in every way than the Roe decision itself. What is lamentable if it ever were to get that far (an honest lamentation by those of us who understand the issues, rather than low-IQ agitated robo-defense of Roe by the Left) would be the specter of the Supreme Court substituting the law-invention of Roe with what might amount to the same thing (making a definition, in its ruling, of which developing humans are and which are not citizens or persons, with any detail other than an absolute all-yes or all-no; even a viability "dividing line" is unsettling).
  • Balfegor
    I'm fairly certain that states are permitted to grant foreign non-citizens the right to vote. True, I'm certain on the basis of wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigner...), which has a long roll of states that have allowed foreigners to vote pretty much without restriction, including many states which permitted such long after the ratification of the 14th amendment. So minus 10 points for credibility there. But this comports well with my recollection reading more reliable sources. There are also regular attempts to grant foreigners rights to vote for many local and municipal offices.

    It does sound right to me that states can extend generous rights to non-citizens. I don't think they can exceed the rights granted by citizens, because that would probably implicate a national origin equal protection concern. But I think they can certainly equal them. Equal protection and common sense would tend to limit the rights that can be granted. I don't think the Constitution is or intends to be the exclusive source of rights.
  • DLS
    "Are you trying to tell me that a state government cannot affirm that a person neither born nor naturalised in the US has particular rights while in that state?"

    State citizenship still exists (in addition to federal or "national" citizenship, which was made explicit after the Civil War). States may have their own definition of citizenship and personhood* and it may apply before the act of being born (which, in fact, is the basis for settling any issue of if or when a baby not born yet, or a fetus, is a legal object, and what rights a developing child and a fetus may have). Note that existing laws establish the fact of the fetus's or developing child's presence and legal person-hood or "object-hood" to some extent; that is why actions that cause harm to or loss of a fetus or developing child now are in laws are crimes in a number of instances, which establish the fetuses or developing babies as _something_ legally and otherwise. Defenders of the Roe activism are annhilated by the facts. The existing state laws governing abortion are the correct laws that should be applied currently. I'm curious, but not confident, about some kind of consensus being established someday about abortion and replacement of Roe, other illegitimate judicial activism, and mindless leftist militance with reason and legitimacy in the courts.

    * and other states are obliged to recognize and respect these definitions -- "full faith and credit"
  • Jazz writes that "The 14th amendment doesn't say that you can murder people who are not citizens with impunity or anything of the sort. What it DOES define is who has the specified rights." True enough, but don't forget that the Constitution doesn't protect all our rights. There are any number of natural rights that lie beyond the Constitution's protection; that's the point of the Ninth Amendment: just because the Constitution doesn't protect a right doesn't deny the existence of that right to it or prevent the states from protecting it.
  • "I don't think the Constitution is or intends to be the exclusive source of rights."

    We can at least partially agree. The constitution intends to be the exclusive guarantor of the minimum rights of citizens. I agree that it does not seek, nor should it intend, to be a comprehensive listing of all the rights of citizens, but that speaks to the original purpose of the document, doesn't it? The bill of rights was not intended to be a tool for the Federal Government to use in restricting the rights of citizens, it's an insurance policy for the citizens to insure that their fundamental rights would never be taken away by an ambitious and over reaching Federal government. The states can assign various rights to farm animals and pets. (As they should, and indeed have.) But that's not part of the function of the constitution.

    Of course, this unfortunately leads us back to the original question. How is our track record when it comes to "equal protection and common sense" in courts of law? Let's say for a moment that a state can declare the unborn to be persons with full rights. Can couples claim their six week old fetus as a dependent on their taxes? I don't know. I still keep coming back full circle on the legal ramifications to the idea that your previously mentioned "equal protection and common sense" should be exactly what stops us from assigning full rights to the unborn. To go any further in a defense of the idea, at least for me, jumps the line from legal possibilities to moral and religious questions where we would likely part company as I don't find those to be questions for the government to answer. I must say, though, you certainly provide a lot of food for thought.
  • CStanley
    Nobody seriously believes that a 5-day embryo is a person

    Call me 'nobody', I guess.

    And I have no idea how some people can rationalize the dispensation of petri dish embryos to the trashbin if they oppose abortion- it makes no sense and those people are not being consistent, presumably because they're making an emotional rationalization since they pity infertile couples. Had we never opened Pandora's box of IVF, it would have been far better to solve the problem of infertility with adoption (which also helps solve the dilemma of the burden of unplanned pregnancy for women.) In both cases, society has chosen the easy way out instead of the higher moral ground.

    I am almost coming around to Elrod's stated position though, that it really is far more important to try to prevent abortions by preventing pregnancies and providing better solutions for women who have become pregnant, but I still can't really accept that the law shouldn't also reflect the correct moral position. If murder of born persons was legal, I'd want to simultaneously work to prevent murders as well as advocating for a change in the law.
  • CStanley
    Let's say for a moment that a state can declare the unborn to be persons with full rights. Can couples claim their six week old fetus as a dependent on their taxes? I don't know.

    Claiming a dependent as a tax deduction isn't a right- the state can determine when that exemption begins in any way it sees fit.

    And as long as we're talking about potential inconsistencies if a fetus was granted full human rights, what about the inconsistencies as they currently stand? We have laws in many states now which allow prosecution for homicide if a fetus is killed in connection with a violent crime perpetrated against the mother. That's completely inconsistent with the idea that a licensed physician is permitted to take the same life, if the mother requests it.

    I think we have to come to terms with the fact that pregnancy is a unique situation, so some inconsistencies will exist no matter what we decide.
  • Amanda
    My question for the folks in the ND House, is what do they intend to do to women who have abortions? If this law passes, are they planning to prosecute the doctors and the patients on murder charges? Will they throw them in jail?

    And what happens to a woman who miscarries? If the embryo is a protected, recognized human life, than isn't miscarriage the equivalent of negligent homicide or manslaughter?
  • Balfegor
    RE: "I don't know. I still keep coming back full circle on the legal ramifications to the idea that your previously mentioned "equal protection and common sense" should be exactly what stops us from assigning full rights to the unborn. "

    That's a fair point -- peoples' view of what is common sensical is not always going to coincide. But that's why we have democracy. What seems perfectly natural to us may seem absolutely barbaric to our descendants a century hence.

    I mentioned equal protection in that context merely because it's the only thing I could think of then. There are, I'm sure other Constitutional provisions that do have the effect of limiting rights, I just don't know the ins and outs of the Constitution well enough to be able to say what they might be with certainty. All I can say is that a provision limiting citizenship to those born or naturalised in the US simply doesn't speak to the question of whether states can grant additional rights on par with state citizens' rights to people who aren't citizens of the US. At least under state law -- federal law will tend to look to federal sources for their definitions.
  • CStanley
    Amanda, your first question is a logical one and that's one thing that's difficult to answer as a prolifer. Personally I think it should be handled not as a murder charge, but as an illegal medical practice which should result in loss of medical license (but even that position isn't really perfect, just the best I can come up with.)

    But your second question is just silly. People die all the time and we have no problem determining whether or not the circumstances of those deaths should result in criminal charges.
  • Yeah, I'm slowly but surely coming around to seeing Balfegor's point as to whether or not ND can assign "full rights as a person" to the unborn. It's not clear cut, but he makes a very strong case and I could see it carrying some weight on challenge.

    Amanda and CStanley's argument heads into territory that I tried very hard to avoid. Prosecuting women for having a clearly unintentional miscarriage flies well past silly and into straw-man territory. Trying to prove that a woman *intentionally* tried to force a miscarriage, while I know it has happened, would also be a legal nightmare even for the most strident pro-lifer.

    My original question about the IV fertilization clinics, though, still seems to stand on its own merit. The law, as worded, would certainly leave open the possibility of fertility doctors being open to murder charges for discarding fertilized embryos which the parents no longer want. Ed Morrissey updated his post which I linked to after I wrote it and mentioned that some pro-lifers might see that as being "a feature rather than a bug." I have to wonder if the pro-life warriors really want to take the battle that far. The political, legal and social ramifications are all mind boggling and the argument looks like a non-starter to me.
  • CStanley
    The law, as worded, would certainly leave open the possibility of fertility doctors being open to murder charges for discarding fertilized embryos which the parents no longer want. Ed Morrissey updated his post which I linked to after I wrote it and mentioned that some pro-lifers might see that as being "a feature rather than a bug." I have to wonder if the pro-life warriors really want to take the battle that far. The political, legal and social ramifications are all mind boggling and the argument looks like a non-starter to me.

    If what you say is correct, Jazz (and I do think you have a point), then what does that say about our society? That we can force an issue down the road long enough so that we get past the point where we can consider the moral implications? Because we've gone so far with acceptance of IVF embryos being destroyed, we're supposed to now say that everyone has to accept abortion as a given? That's pretty horrific, in it's implications for the chilling effect on ethics in general, as far as I'm concerned.
  • Ryan
    ''Call me 'nobody', I guess.''

    It's not that I would say you're 'nobody', but I'm in the 'actions speak louder than words' camp. I don't have access to your mind, so I have to find some way to reconcile the claim that you're a person from conception with the fact that you don't seem terribly upset at the thought of tens of millions of 'persons' being murdered. I don't know about you, but if the murder of born persons was legal I wouldn't "work to prevent murders", I'd get my gun. That you do not implies either that you're not as pro-life as you think you are, or you have no objections to mass murder as long as it's legal.
  • CStanley
    Ryan,
    That's a nice piece of rhetorical jiu jitsu that you're trying to tie me up with, but pretty easy to escape your hold.

    Let's back up and look at your logic. Apparently you believe that any time a horrible injustice is occurring, people of good conscience have to use any means possible to stop it, including violence and murder of the perpetrators. There's no other way to interpret your statements, because you claim to know that I'm not serious in my belief that abortion is murder unless I demonstrate that belief by killing abortionists or supporting those who do.

    OK, so let's see. When are you travelling to Darfur to try to stop the genocide? Or to Thailand to kill the perpetrators of enslavement of children for the sex trade?

    What? You're not? Oh, I guess you're not as opposed to genocide or to sexual enslavement of children as you think you are.

    I'd get my gun. That you do not implies either that you're not as pro-life as you think you are, or you have no objections to mass murder as long as it's legal.
    Actually it's option C- that I'm not you, and I can comprehend that a lot of people who commit this murder don't actually believe that it's murder even though I'm convicted of that fact. Murdering those people would not advance the goal, but working to change people's convictions is the only thing that can possibly do so.
  • Ryan
    Thanks for bringing up "supporting those who do", I'd forgotten about that. I'm not going to cry if someone kills a slaver or two. All right, we can both revel in our cowardice and not personally do anything to fix matters, but you could at least offer a token cheer for the people who do.

    That said, I think that in some cases persuasion is inadequate. Try persuading al-Qaeda to abandon terrorism. Tell Hitler it's really a bad thing to exterminate the Jews. Wave signs. Show them pictures of their victims. Write angry letters to the editor. Stage a demonstration (in the former case, that would be more like a target.) They're not going to buy it, and while you work to change their convictions, they murder innocents, and will continue to do so until forcibly stopped. So all right, I concede that not personally intervening doesn't cap the strength of your feelings on the subject, but if you go so far as to condemn people who do kill abortionists, then you're putting all your eggs in the persuasion basket.

    Is that even going to work? You're trading two immediate effects (smaller number of abortionists, plus a disincentive for anyone else to become one) for a long-term solution which might not even happen, especially given that you (unless I horribly misread your earlier comment) think a single cell qualifies as a person. That's quite the hurdle for anyone who thinks that, say, sentience is prerequisite for personhood.
  • CStanley
    Try persuading al-Qaeda to abandon terrorism. Tell Hitler it's really a bad thing to exterminate the Jews. Wave signs.
    So, it's not possible to see a difference between those who participate in abortions and those who participate in terrorism or genocide? I realize that many people in the prolife movement do see them that way, but I happen to think that the perpetrators are capable of being persuaded (there certainly have been examples of 'conversions', if not doctors then clinic staff like Norma McCorvey)

    And really, the 'persuasion' is likely to be more effective on the demand side than the 'supply' side of abortion. I think most abortionists are probably pretty dug in, and a large number of women (and their male partners) who participate in abortions are too- but the latter is an everchanging group and those who face the decision for the first time might reconsider if they have other options.

    I guess in a sense, to get back to your terrorism analogy, the persuasion that I see as possible (and really, the least worst option under the circumstances) is more like trying to encourage moderate Muslims to help the younger generation accept an anti-Islamist stance, and to make some direct overtures to encourage that as well.
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