On the IAF Gaza School Strike

Holly - I fully support Israel in their current actions, but it is mindsets like yours that keep any possibility other than full destruction of the other side (which cannot happen) as being the only end-game.

Is there absolutely no place in your world-view for a 'fog-of-war' mistake by Israel as a possible explanation? I certainly don't think that if there were no Hamas activities at the school that Israeli troops would purposely target it, but no large-scale military use of force is without mix-ups and communications breakdowns.

I'm so glad that a "Moderate Voice" like Hate-Filled-Holly darkens these pages. Is there anyone that supports here wild-eyed screeds and ultra-reactionary accusations?

More balanced reporting from Haaretz: At least 30 Gazans killed in IDF strike

Support for Israel is fine (if misplaced). But *absolute* blind faith is not - and definitely not on a site such as this. Hate-Filled-Holly cheapens this blog.

And here's an excellent, more pragmatic statement from the Jewish organization J Street:

“Israel has a special place in each of our hearts. But we recognize that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have a monopoly on right or wrong. While there is nothing “right” in raining rockets on Israeli families or dispatching suicide bombers, there is nothing “right” in punishing a million and a half already-suffering Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them.”

More level-headed thinking on the Gaza Conflict (which is woefully missing here on The Moderate Voice) at Donklelephant: http://donklephant.com/2009/01/05/quote-of-the-...

What a ruse...It's like 9-11 never happened...people really are slow learners..

You know what this is really about don't you? Hint: religion is often cited as the reason for ECONOMIC wars...; )

Bushco knows they're ilk is going to get spanked and the oil monopoly (Iraq) diffused via alternatives...so they're behind the Israeli assault in order to piss off Iran (yes, Iran) and get Iran to make an offensive move...thereby giving "justification and impetus" for us to "retaliate" against Iran...it's more oil imperialism I'm afraid...

It's the old Bushco' "Can we invade Iraq yet?" MO...just insert "Iran" instead.

They aren't satisfied with ransacking our Treasury.. and the majority asserting its Will via the election of an alternative plan (in Barack Obama's administration)..no..

They want to continue "business as usual" via their Israeli buddies.

And people are saying we shouldn't try them as war criminals. I'll tell you..Bushco is the biggest set of diabolical Godless terrorists that have ever walked the face of the earth...if you think of the staggering implications of what they've done not only to our economy, but also millions of lives. Hitler and the Third Reicht ain't got nothing on Bushco..

My understanding is that Hamas (or affiliated persons) have used the school to launch attacks before, namely mortar attacks in 2007. That at this time Israeli troops were fired on and retured fire and the "explosion" was due to munitions in the courtyard going off, not directly from Israeli action.
Everyone knows that Hamas uses civilian populations as "shields". No moralizing here, but lets face facts, right or wrong they do so. You can absolutely side with Palestine in every way and still admit to the facts right? So why the uproar? Hamas is the ruling party and they have made every civilian a legitimate target on purpose. It is a tactic they have and are using. So be it , but by doing so any and every target is now legal and legitimate. We all understand why Hamas does it, if they cause Israel to injure and kill civilians then they have both propaganda and recruiting tools to use. If Hamas admitted that then they would loose much of the benefit. Why people who know this, and you must be a moron not too know it, still go on about it amazes me. It does get old the anti-semite call that is used when anyone says anything against Israel but I do wonder why else would anyone ignore, or pretend to, the facts. I mean a 5 year old could see thru this crap but still you hear it, so whats going on? Is it just anti semitism?

This post was meant as a joke, right?

I've been on the road both at Christmastime and New Year's, and sparing the lefties on this "moderate" site the heartburn of straightfoward reality checks on their world view, but I have to wonder how much Holly has been "enjoying" the predictable media and activist group anti-Israeli idiocy. It seems all the Usual Suspects are all holding Israel in a much worse light than the terrorist group HAMAS (they are not "insurgents" or "militants," but criminal terrorist vermin), and had been nearly silent for years to the rocket attacks directed against Israeli civilians -- while Israel has been selecting terrorists and terrorist operation sites as targets instead. Yet all the loser-whining and misplaced, stupid anger has been directed, predictably, against Israel, who if anything is held to be the party much more at fault, while the cause of the problems, HAMAS's attacks against civilians, has been nearly completely ignored. Where are the demands that HAMAS, the party completely in the wrong and in the wrong for years, stop its criminal misconduct?

[sounds of crickets chirping and hateful spite still directed at Israel, instead, from the Left]

Where are the demands that HAMAS, the party completely in the wrong and in the wrong for years, stop its criminal misconduct?

Well... uhh... I don't know... EVERYWHERE.

"Human Rights Watch investigations of previous ground operations in Gaza and the West Bank by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) found evidence of unlawful killings by Israeli forces. In addition, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups fired rockets or conducted other military operations from densely populated areas, placing civilians at risk of serious harm." - Human Rights Watch http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/04/israel-ga...

Every opinion piece I've read on the subject always starts with a disclaimer about Hamas being awful and how the rocket attacks are war crimes. But one war crime doesn't excuse another.

And I'd be surprised if half of the people Israel has killed in Gaza over the last few days are actually part of Hamas. The average age in Gaza is something ridiculously low like 17. The area is the most densely populated on earth. Those facts just don't work in the favor of surgical strikes.

Out of 500 reported dead only 100 are reported civilian......seems they are doing a pretty good job. It's now being reported that a mortar was being fired from the school so casualties from there (30 dead) would be combatants. Holly is all the way overboad for Israel but she did happen to be mostly right in this case.

Out of 500 reported dead only 100 are reported civilian......seems they are doing a pretty good job.

Q: What do you call 100 unnecessarily killed civilians?

A: Dead.

Israel, through war, is not going to be able to stop the pissed off people of Gaza (who have legitimate grievances, like being forced to live there, and in poverty) from firing glorified bottle rockets into Israel. Unless of course Israel is willing to kill or expel every single living being from Gaza.

If Israel wants to help protect its people from attack, they can start by helping the people of Gaza that they have dicked for so long.

I don't think anyone really knows how many civilians have been killed in GAZA so far. How could they? Yes, Hamas is all about using death of civilians for propaganda purposes, if they had any respect for the lives of their civilian population they would never have spent to much time and effort provoking Israel. That said, Israel's response is done with our blessing in terms of weapons and resources. As far as much of the Arab world is concerned we are as complicit as Israel in those civilian deaths, and that is precisely why so many Americans have a problem with it. People like DLS would like to trivialize this rather than see it in it's entirety, but looking at only fragments of the picture and pretending to understand doesn't cut it. This problem was referred to recently as the Forever War, and I've yet to see any "solutions" that are going to keep if from being just that.

"And I'd be surprised if half of the people Israel has killed in Gaza over the last few days are actually part of Hamas. The average age in Gaza is something ridiculously low like 17. The area is the most densely populated on earth. Those facts just don't work in the favor of surgical strikes"

Oops, those damn facts getting in the way again. What the hell you'll just ignore them.

Listen it's not about right and wrong. You've picked your side and it's obvious that you'll ignore anything you don't like Chris. Tell me this though, when has Hamas ever said that it would coexist with Israel? That improving conditions would make any difference to them? Your attitude is more than a little condescending towards Hamas. They say they want Israel gone. That they will accept nothing else. So you think they are lying? That they are ignorant or simple? That they are something besides sincere in their beliefs? Hamas did everything they could to get Israel to attack and to try and maximize the number of palestinian casualties, but Israel's the bad guy here?

Chris WWW, sorry for the delay, but time constraints here and slow response limit my current use of this site.

What we've been hearing is greatly preponderent, inappropriate criticism of Israel. First, all the howling has been about Israel, is it being terrible, is it violating international law, it "must" refrain from this, that, and anything else that might give it an advantage over its enemy, and of course the joke of a UN is nearly all one-sided against Israel. Now the critics are forced to admit the rocket attacks are wrong, but they still want Israel to stop (to stop succeeding or winning against the terrorist, we must ask, if honest) and they howl about how Israel is equally at fault here (a lie) or that its response is disproportionate (a lie). Currently we're seeing howling for a truce as soon as possible, lasting as long as possible. Too many people are obscessed with getting a truce (and ending Israel's successes against the terrorists) rather than with seeing a long-term solution and a proper resolution of this (including cessation of the rocket attacks, which require nothing from Israel in exchange).

"As far as much of the Arab world is concerned we are as complicit as Israel in those civilian deaths, and that is precisely why so many Americans have a problem with it. People like DLS would like to trivialize this rather than see it in it's entirety"

Why would you make up a blatantly false statement like this with absolutely no basis in fact or history to support it? STOP THE FICTION.

Oops, those damn facts getting in the way again. What the hell you'll just ignore them.

I'm willing to believe the UN reports which put the number of civilian dead at over 125. If that number is true, I'm wrong and I'm sorry. But that number is not insignificant, nor is it insignificant that Gazans have been suffering under an occupation and siege for 60 years after having been expelled from their homes.

Tell me this though, when has Hamas ever said that it would coexist with Israel? That improving conditions would make any difference to them?

That argument is a distraction and ultimately self defeating. In any case, the flip side is more important: When has Israel ever said that it would coexist with a Palestinian State? When the cease fire of 6 months ago was instituted why didn't Israel lift the blockade after Hamas sharply cut back the rocket attacks?

What we've been hearing is greatly preponderent, inappropriate criticism of Israel.

Did it ever occur to you that Israel is the recipient of the preponderance of criticism because they are the perpetrators of the greatest preponderance of death?

"That argument is a distraction and ultimately self defeating. In any case, the flip side is more important: When has Israel ever said that it would coexist with a Palestinian State? When the cease fire of 6 months ago was instituted why didn't Israel lift the blockade after Hamas sharply cut back the rocket attacks?"

How about when they pulled out of Gaza? Come on your ignoring reality! Sure there is a strong settler lobby who would move in and bulldoze what you would call "Palestine" pushing everyone out. However it is in the minority. Most Israelis would quickly go for giving territory to a "Palestine" state if it meant peace. Israel has started down that path several times and always palestinian organizations have attacked it. So Hamas slowed down the rocket attacks, not quit by your assertion just cut back, maybe Israel should of done just half a blockade? Why would they (Israel) not try and stop Hamas from bringing in rockets to shoot? Come on!! Weapons are the reason for the tunnels, that's why the ships smuggle stuff in, don't parrot propaganda that a 5 yo should see thru.

"Did it ever occur to you that Israel is the recipient of the preponderance of criticism because they are the perpetrators of the greatest preponderance of death?"

So if they were bad at it then they would be the good guys? That's stupid and illogical. Besides since Hamas seems to make a goal of getting civilians dead I think they more than shoulder their share of the burden.

Articles from JP and another from AP say that the mortar fire was from a “street close to the school”.

JP:

Two residents of the area near UN school that was shelled by the IDF on Tuesday said that they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school. The two spoke with The Associated Press by telephone on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

AP:

Israel’s military said its shelling — the deadliest single episode since Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza Saturday — was a response to mortar fire from within the school and said Hamas militants were using civilians as cover.

Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

Mortars are not stationary artillery, a PU dropping off the mortARS doesn’t make the school a base.

I could buy into this if the school was an isolated incident. But this from UKTimesOnline:

Israeli mortar rounds blasted a United Nations-run school that had been converted into a refugee shelter for hundreds of Palestinians displaced by the ten-day war in Gaza, killing more than 40 people.

It was one of three UN schools hit by Israeli ordnance yesterday. The strike against the Fakhora school in the northern town of Jabaliya was the deadliest single attack of an already blood-soaked offensive.

How about when they pulled out of Gaza? Come on your ignoring reality! Sure there is a strong settler lobby who would move in and bulldoze what you would call "Palestine" pushing everyone out. However it is in the minority. Most Israelis would quickly go for giving territory to a "Palestine" state if it meant peace.

First off, when they pulled out of Gaza, they still maintained effective military control of the area. It was like a prison where the guards and the warden controlled it from the outside rather than in. Second, when they pulled out of Gaza, they took even more land from the West Bank, so it was a net loss of land for the Palestinians.

Third, I think you're right that "most" Israelis would favor giving up land for peace. But the people in charge are doing and have done the exact opposite for 60 years. As a result the Palestinian population is more radicalized and more ready to jump into the arms of groups like Hamas (which saw its popularity waning until the recent attack on Gaza).

So if they were bad at it then they would be the good guys?

Being good or bad at prosecuting an immoral and counterproductive war isn't the issue.

I could buy it if it was the first time someone had used a school for a base. Funny thing. there is a YouTube video from 2007 showing mortars firing in that same school.And no offence they print Palestinian reports as headlines without being able to validate.

"Being good or bad at prosecuting an immoral and counterproductive war isn't the issue"

Well according to you it's all about the body count. The fact that Israel kills more that Hamas means they get more blame right?

"Did it ever occur to you that Israel is the recipient of the preponderance of criticism because they are the perpetrators of the greatest preponderance of death?"

Now you want to change your argument again..........

It's counterproductive to talk about Hamas refusing any peace that has Israel in it anywhere, but ignore that because you don't want to talk about it so it doesn't matter. Changing arguments in mid stride, ignoring facts, you are really invested in Israel being the one and only Bad Guy. Nothing that will challenge it will be tolerated right?

Chris -

"When the cease fire of 6 months ago was instituted why didn't Israel lift the blockade after Hamas sharply cut back the rocket attacks?"

That is just about the single stupidest thing I have ever seen you write, and while we disagree on a lot, you normally aren't stupid. How about Hamas firing NO rockets during a cease fire?

Your point seems to be that Hamas has some amount of rocket fire that they should be able to launch without any fear of reprisal, and that Israel should use the techniques of bad parenting, 'Well, little Johnny isn't stealing or lying as often lately, so let's give him a reward for such good behavior!"

Well according to you it's all about the body count. The fact that Israel kills more that Hamas means they get more blame right?

The fact that historically Israelis have killed something like 10 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli that's been killed has to enter into the equation somewhere.

Self defense just can't explain away 60 years of occupation, theft and murder.

At some point the Israelis have to break the cycle of violence. They're the ones in control.

It's counterproductive to talk about Hamas refusing any peace that has Israel in it anywhere

It's pointless, because this isn't really about Hamas. Palestinians have sought peace through the PLO and Fatah. But both organizations were considered too radical in their times and Israel refused to deal with them. That's why more hardline groups have taken their place. Now Israel has to deal with the monster they've created.

That is just about the single stupidest thing I have ever seen you write, and while we disagree on a lot, you normally aren't stupid. How about Hamas firing NO rockets during a cease fire?

Who's going to blink first? It's a circular argument, but it shows how both sides are more similar than they are different. That's why it's stupid to blame Hamas for the current hostilities anymore than you blame Israel.

"The fact that historically Israelis have killed something like 10 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli that's been killed has to enter into the equation somewhere.

Self defense just can't explain away 60 years of occupation, theft and murder. "

You're just dishonest. "Occupation"? Palestine has never been a country and there has never been anything to to "Occupy". Gaza was taken from Egypt after Egypt attacked Israel. I don't think Egypt is the Palestinian homeland. Theft, well as we just learned you must have something before it can be stolen from you, but that's just more pesky facts. And here's a shock killing someone who is trying to kill you or others has never been murder anywhere but in some fantasy world were you must live.


"That's why it's stupid to blame Hamas for the current hostilities anymore than you blame Israel."

Then the opposite would be true but statements have already called that a lie. At least you could be a consistent idiot. Well I guess you are consistently illogical.