(Updated) Yo, John & Sarah: We’re Waiting

My church - Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church - has already seen how political poison can lead to violence. Jim Adkisson was obviously mentally deranged. But he was fed a bunch of bigotry that he acted upon. I worry that other unhinged people will take their cues from the horrid rhetoric from Palin. Hopefully last night's debate was a sign that McCain is moving away from that disgusting tactic.

I think its obvious that McCain and Palin should say something. It should almost go without saying; at least I would like to think there is still a small thread of civility to elections. But I'll be honest--I've seen garbage like this on both sides. Remember the movie that was in production about the assassination of Bush? And in 2004, there were many rallies where he was being compared to Hitler. It is disgusting, and it is so all the way around. The fact that we have to demand that they come out and denounce this garbage is pretty sad. But I don't think we'll be hearing anything from either side anytime soon.

"We’re waiting."

I, for one, am not. As jchem says, this latest mud-slinging is the latest, and far from the worst, example of toxic rhetoric in the American body politic.

I am sure the Secret Service has an office just for Democratic Underground, to monitor the endless threats to Bush that commenters fill there. And everyone can recall the hateful venom spewed at Tony Snow and his family when he passed away on liberal blogs. If I recall, Huff & Puff had to disable their comments on Snow's death . . . and KOS tossed various diaries down his ever growing Memory Hole.

If McCain wins, the venom from the Left will be truly poisonous...beyond that of the anti-Redstate fury post- 2004. That seems increasingly unlikely.

If Obama wins, I predict there will be much less venom from the Right...and if he governs in a cooperative spirit as he says, he may go a long way towards lancing the toxic boil.

Strange how our Canadian friend tries to spin hateful outbursts at most, if not all, Republican Stump Speeches into a vast and vicious flaw with Democrats.

McCain did not bring the smears into the debate, because he knew that they are not really grounded in reality, and he did not want to look like a desperate fool. He wanted to look presidential.

Marlowe -

We are not talking about Bush anymore-- he is yesterday's news. We are talking about McCain-Palin- but nice attempt to change the subject!

If Obama wins, I predict there will be much less venom from the Right...and if he governs in a cooperative spirit as he says, he may go a long way towards lancing the toxic boil.

Why is this wrong? Limbaugh, Reagan, Hannity, Malkin, Coulter,etc., etc.

Marlowe,

Thanks for missing the point and trying to spin blame on the Democrats.

Let me put it bluntly. If Obama is assassinated, will you belch out right wing apologist rhetoric then? Or merely weep crocodile tears?

If I recall, most rabid liberal blogs have called for Bush's impeachment, but not his death. So with people yelling out "Kill him" at Palin rallies, Shaun's point stands.

Let's get the comments thread back to where it belongs:

Someone yelling "Kill him!" at a campaign rally in response to a candidate's invective is not a partisan matter. It is not a matter of left wingnuts being angrier if McCain wins than right wingnuts if Obama wins.

As Ta-Nehisi points out, it is a matter of public -- and candidate -- safety.

At this point, the silence of McCain and Palin is deafening.

What everyone forgets is that domestic terrorist aren't the Weathermen anymore. The Black Panther didn't bomb OKC, the Atlanta Olympics or kill doctors in NY. The militia movement wasn't forecast in the Port Huron Statement, but the Turner Diaries. Remember the CDS and the Vince Foster and Ron Brown murder blatherings.

Jim...because Limbaugh, Coulter et al do not represent all conservatives.

You are ignoring the backlash against the Congressional GOP by conservatives.

Obama is increasingly popular, even among many conservatives. I have expressed my admiration for him many times here.

My point was...this toxic hatred is not something that suddenly appeared with McCain and Palin.

And you all have ignored the remarkable level of hatred directed at Bush...who is still in the White House.

There has been incredible levels of venom directed at Bush by Democrats. Not one of you commented on the appalling things said about Tony Snow on his death across many liberal blogs.

Consider, for example, Democratic State Comptroller Alan Hevesi, who being recorded on video at a commencement said admiringly of Sen. Schumer:

"The man who, how do I phrase this diplomatically, who will put a bullet between the president's eyes if he could get away with it. The toughest senator, the best representative. A great, great member of the Congress of the United States."

This was not simply a bone-headed remark.

None of this venom in the American body politic appeared overnight. It has been festering for years.

An Obama presidency would reduce the venom, whereas a McCain presidency would likely not.

I should add, in fairness, that the years of festering extend beyond Bush.

The insane preoccupation of Republicans with bringing down the Clinton Presidency did enormous damage to the United States.

Recall the deep paranoia on the Right in 1990s, and how Congressional GOP hatred of the Clinton's led them to defend heavily armed fringe groups, and rake over the coals the FBI and ATF who tried their best . . . with mistakes . . . to deal with these groups.

My point, again, is that there is deep venom in the U.S. body politic.

Marlowecan is correct that the festering extends to before Bush. The real tragedy, or disappointment (deepending upon how deeply you feel about it) is that it was supposed to be different this time around. Both candidates supposedly eschewed negativity early on, but it hasn't worked out that way. In fact, that might be something of an understatement.

I suppose a certain amount of negativity is inevitable. But there is first a difference between casting one's opponents in a negative light and propagating personal aspersions. Second, there are also levels of personal attacks. When McCain came out with his first "celebrity" add with Paris and Brittney two words immediately jumped to mind: Harold Ford. After discussing the ad with various friends and acquaintances, and also people here and on other blogs across the political spectrum, I was relieved to find that not too many people made the same connection I did -- even liberals. Most folks didn't see a racial connotation, but an "airhead" one. So I decided at that point that I should calm down a bit. To me, suggesting your opponent is an airhead is not nearly as ugly and corrosive as suggesting they're going to steal your daughters or something. Similarly, though oppositely, Obama's camp has accused McCain of being "out of touch". And some have accused Obama of playing the age card because of it. I can see the point, but by the same token I've known plenty of folks of all ages that really were out of touch.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes insinuations are manufactured in the eyes of the beholder, not the source. And generally speaking, maybe people need to calm down. That being said though, the episodes Shaun mentioned are dangerous. And if the McCain camp wants to tread on the thin ice of guilt by association they had better be very careful to not only disavow those who react insidiously, but to also condemn them in no uncertain terms.

The Secret Service is now involved:

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/10/secre...

The words "kill him" were clearly audible and what Sarah Palin was doing was inciting to riot, which is a crime. What I'd like to know is why Sarah Palin, who could hear the comment as well, was smiling after it was said and continued to rebel-rouse even after it.

The Secret Service works for the current administration mind you. They're seeking to clear Sarah of any connection to Obama's potential assasination because now...well...now we have proof that she "condones" it, by her smile and ambivalence, even approval by not missing a beat in smearing Obama further.

I'd like to see Obama press criminal charges against Palin for attempting to coerce violence against him. Or perhaps a citizen's group could initiate a Civil case against her for attempting to disrupt a public election by encouraging violence against a candidate? Seek damages? Any good democratic attorneys out there willing to take a case like this and tip the election solidly in Obama's direction? Not sure what the exact legal term is for using a public speaking forum to incite violence but I know it's a no-no...particularly when connected with a death threat. In this case not covert but plain and clear as a bell. "KILL HIM!" *Palin smiles, continues bashing Obama*

Good grief, jchem and Silhouette, I can't decide whether you read that article too quickly or if you're deliberately twisting what it said.

Note that the secret service is looking into this AFTER reading Dana Milbank's reporting because none of the agents heard what he was reported to have said. So far the article doesn't give any indication that the comment has been verified (Silhouette: I asked yesterday if anyone had an audible tape of that comment and got no response- so are you holding out on me?)

Dana Milbank supposedly heard this and chose to write about it, but now he's not in any hurry to answer the phone calls of the Secret Service when they called him to inquire about it.

Hmmmm

I heard it on the news. Just like millions of other people did.

Nice try though. Cat's out of the bag and this has serious legal implications. It is illegal to interfere or attempt to interfere with an American election. Palin did just that.

Ignorance is no excuse. I imagine experts will be watching that tape closely and interviewing people who attended.

What tape??? I've yet to see a copy (and there are a bunch of them out there of the specific rally that Milbank was referring to in Clearwater) where the alleged threat is audible. You claim to have heard it...where?

Any good democratic attorneys out there willing to take a case like this and tip the election solidly in Obama's direction?

I'm pretty sure I've answered my own question about why you're pushing this slanderous accusation without any evidence, silhouette. i think any good attorneys will shy away from this though, so you may be out of luck.

I'm not going to sue Palin, but that doesn't mean other angry Americans won't.

I will tell you that I am a patriot and an American to my core. I not only talk about democracy, I understand it at its fundamental level. The conduct at that "rally" offends me to the very core of my foundation. It is on par with treason.

I tire of those who are quick to defend tyranny in all its forms. I'm sick of the GOP definition of what it is to be an American citizen. Freedom is where it's at. Not irresponsible freedom to incite violence and eliminate the competition no matter what it takes, but freedom to aspire to greatness. Palin is not legally allowed to oversee a public rally where real and actual threats to Barack Obama's civil liberties are de facto encouraged.

Go back and study American history pal. Nowhere can I remember a reference to a candidate presiding over a rally where the death of another candidate is flippantly accepted and promoted.

At the very least I expect an explanation from Palin on her conduct. I think millions of others expect the same thing.

hold on there CStanley. I just provided the link to show that the secret service was involved. I've tried to hunt down a video where this is clearly audible and so far I haven't found it. I'm asking for one, if anyone has it. Almost every site that I've been to cites Milbank's report, but even he doesn't have a video.

As I said above, if this was said, then McCain and Palin need to respond, plain and simple. But I also think that if accusations like this are going to go flying around, there needs to be absolute evidence. You can't just say "one guy said kill him" and leave it at that.

Well, I hope Obama can do somethings to reduce that level of venom, but it will be an uphill struggle when there are so many wingnuts who seem to be just fine with the current state of polarization. As for trying to include the left as equally culpable as the right when it comes to the orgins of that "toxicity", it is the height of disingenuousness. The growth of a more radical faction on the left is a direct outgrowth of so many years of rightwing arrogance and hyper-partisan activity. The left didn't originate and make talk-hate radio popular. The left didn't put all their energy into witchhunting when they should have been governing. The left didn't make the Iraq war. The left didn't open the floodgates to an unrestrained, unregulated economy. The left didn't work to block every bit of environmentally sound policy that came up. All that revisionist history about the two parties being equally screwed up is nothing but propaganda put forth by people who don't understand or believe in accountability. Give the BS a rest.

I agree, jchem, and I stated in another thread that if this is verified, it's terrible and should be pursued. Given the level of evidence now though and the sources who are reporting on it, I'm skeptical (though I'd say that if Milbank made this up then that's a decline in what I'd normally expect from him- perhaps he didn't think through the gravity of the accusation before writing it, or perhaps he even imagined that he heard it because he felt the booing had a sinister tone or something.)

I saw the rally on MSNBC. I'm not positive but I think Rachel Maddow (sp?) covered it and the anchor who does "worst person in the world" (forget his name) also ran a clip of it.

Why not just ask MSNBC for a copy? If they can enhance audio on other tapes, why not this one...for the hard of hearing...lol...

Those with decent hearing heard clearly "KILL HIM", just after Palin put the words "terroist" and "Obama" in a sentence together...

By the way, the crowd was clearly agitating against Obama and she was the jeer-leader. When a mob-member yells "KILL HIM" in obvious reference to Obama, who she just mentioned as essentially a terrorist-by-association, and she's leading the mob...then she goes on to pause, smile and continue bashing Obama...

You really don't need more than a Kindergarten education to put what she was up to together in an understandable format. Of course, that may be up to a jury to decide. Or not, depending on what citizens decide to do. Remember citizens? The People? The Foundation of America?

Maybe MSNBC or Rachel Maddow would like to clarify their comments on whether or not a spectator at Palin's mob actually did encourage a riotous mentality to kill Obama? Would be worth asking her about. I'd like to see a replay of her bit the other night.

I agree with this article's author: we deserve an explanation. No one will forget that comment. And to worsen their alleged culpability, McCain just had to refer to Obama last night as "that one"...thingifying him like violent people do just before they strike their target.

What the hell has happened to our country??

"The growth of a more radical faction on the left is a direct outgrowth of so many years of rightwing arrogance and hyper-partisan activity", and then "by people who don't understand or believe in accountability".

So shouldn't we hold the radical left accountable rather than blaming their ills on the right? I don't have any love for the Repubs JSpencer, you list a number of things that they need to own up to, but to say that the Dems are a bunch of saints who share no blame in anything is laughable. Perhaps this blind partisanship is the reason why there's so much venom out there right now.

We don't disagree on the topic of this thread JSpencer; if it was said then McCain and Palin need to come out and put an end to it.

The left didn't originate and make talk-hate radio popular.
True but they did try to copy it and ratcheted up the venom considerably, but it was a miserable failure- and the left hatemongers have found a much more comfortable home on the blogosphere.

Funny how you think propaganda only works in one direction (actually not funny, it's disturbing.)

Keith Olberman.. That was the anchor.

I wonder what venom is worse, posting opinions about threats of violence on a backpage of a website as a nobody ghostwriter or presiding over threats of violence on the evening news in front of millions of viewers as one of the potentially highest ranking officials in the land?

Hmmm??

Partisanship aside, we have these little things called "laws". You may have heard of them?

I heard like 20 people talking about it down at the coffee shop. Now that the goonsquad has ripped the video off youtube and any other net outlet, a bunch of people who had Tivo-ed it are now talking about holding auctions on eBay for the videos. It seems to be the only thing I've been hearing about in politics talks today and yesterday...spreading like wildfire..

Then I reminded them that like a million other people probably Tivo-ed the thing too and good luck making a profit off it!...lol...

It does make you wonder why the goonsquad is denouncing it even exists now? Like you can undo Tivo....lol...I gotta sign up for that service. I've been meaning to..

Still, MSNBC aired that rally and the "KILL HIM" comment etc. about like 10 times over the last couple of days. I think I saw it on CNN too. Wonder if their copies have been "disappeared" also?

jchem, I've never called the democrats saints, not even close. That is your word. The point I'm making is that the truth is not served by catering to some artificial PC concept of equal guilt. It may somehow seem safe, fair or perhaps diplomatic to imagine this is the case, but matters of degree are (need it be said?) important. History isn't much use if the record becomes too flexible. I'm fine with holding democrats feet to the fire when it's called for, but in the past couple decades their failures have been far outstripped by the republicans.

CStanley : "Funny how you think propaganda only works in one direction (actually not funny, it's disturbing.)"

CS, I'm afraid that's presumption on your part. Yes, propaganda works more than one direction, but my judgements are not based on propaganda, they are based on records. And again (I guess this needs to be repeated) it may seem politically correct to imagine the records of the D's and R's are equal when it comes to the way our country has been brought to it's current sorry state of affairs, but it simply isn't accurate.

point taken JSpencer. I'm still not sure however that one party can bring such utter collapse of everything. Neither one of them have enough power. Like you said, to matters of degree. I think given the current polls and the political climate for the Repubs, the public has already assigned their matters of degree. After all, McCain began freefalling after that horrendous day on Wall Street. But I'm pretty sure that in 2 or 4 years time, if things are still the way they are now, that pendulum will swing back in their direction.

And now we're completely off topic...my bad.