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Reasons Why Clinton Voters Still Won’t Support Obama

Presumptive Democratic nominee Sen. Barack Obama still faces a big problem: many Senator Hillary Clinton supporters still aren’t supporting him and their feelings seemingly override any partisan concerns over what a John McCain administration might bring in terms of specifics.

But why? Salon’s Rebecca Traister did some interviews and came up with some reasons — reasons that underscore more than ever the political perils facing not just Obama but Clinton herself, if she tries for another run at the White House further down the road and is blamed because her supporters basically boycotted an Obama candidacy during a Democratic “sure-to-win” year. Writes Traister:

To be fair, it’s not just women. There are plenty of Clinton supporters of every demographic description who are still ticked. But yes, it’s true that the Clinton base skewed female, and that women over 30 are the most vocal of the malcontents. Some of them are calling themselves “PUMAs” (as in “Party Unity My Ass”), an acronym that makes them sound, appropriately enough, like cougars in a very bad mood. Who are these women, and why are they such buzzkills?

Remember that classic of pop-psychological cheese, “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus”? This offensive but rhetorically useful book (yes, I’m invoking it; address your letters of complaint to rtraister@salon.com) states that often, in conflict, women simply want to be heard. They want to air their grievances and let their opponents know where they’re coming from. Now the Democratic Party is moving forward, as it must, but it is doing so without giving the Clinton women a real hearing — without letting them vent their anger. It is the social equivalent of talking over them, waving off their complaints, assuming they’ll come around. This is a mistake. This is only making things worse (even if, as Walter Shapiro notes, history says they will come around, no matter how many PUMA T-shirts and Web sites like this one may be sprouting now).

Here the list of reasons she gives. This does NOT include her detailed and MUST READ analysis. Go to the link to read more:

1. They are angry because their candidate lost a close contest.

2. They are angry because their historic opportunity is over.

3. They are angry about rumors that Obama may choose a woman other than Hillary Clinton as his running mate.

4. They are angry that we started to talk about sexism only once Clinton stopped being a threat.

5. They are angry at the media’s repeated denial of sexism, and they are angry at Keith Olbermann. [JG: Once again I'll say it: Olbermann will never never never be moderator on NBC's "Meet The Press."]

6. They are mad at Howard Dean.

7. They are mad at Barack Obama.

8. They are mad at Bill Clinton. Um, obviously.

9. They are mad at Mark Penn.

10. They are mad at Hillary Clinton for conceding and not taking their fight on to Denver.

11. They are mad that everyone believes them to be old, white and racist. They are mad at the people they thought were supposed to be progressives for treating them badly.

12. And finally, they are angry because they feel they are held hostage by the party by their reproductive organs.

What’s what’s the constant in all of these? It’s this:

This is NOT anger about policy issues. This is NOT anger about ideology. It’s highly personal. This isn’t a list about people being unable to accept Obama’s health car proposal, his stance on the war, or his views on how to solve the energy crunch.

There are dangers now for both Obama and Clinton and, obviously, great potential benefits for McCain.

THE DANGER TO OBAMA: The list shows that Obama faces a Herculean task in bringing some Clinton supporters into the fold because the list of questions shows why some will vote for McCain rather than him. It isn’t about issue specifics, which can be more easily addressed and worked out. It also shows why when Bill Clinton Sunday refused to answer reporters’ questions about when he’d endorse Obama, his signal made things much worse. Bill Clinton is doing to the Obama campaign what he did to his wife’s campaign.

THE DANGER TO CLINTON: If she really wants to run again for President in 2012 or 2016 (all the talk about her being too old then is malarkey) she will have a problem. Do Clinton, her husband or her supporters think that if Obama loses because Clinton supporters sat on their hands on election day (or voted for McCain) Obama’s Democratic coalition will rush with open arms to another Clinton presidential candidacy? Or would followers of a defeated Obama continue the cycle of anger and make sure that Hillary Clinton was opposed tooth and nail and put their clout behind another candidate if she runs in 2012 or 2016?

  • Silhouette
    Myth #1: Surrounds the fact that the GOP wants to make all supporters of Clinton "emotional women"..so if you're a guy you clearly won't want to identify with that. Good tactic really if you think about it. This myth ignores that women and men too are capable of being concerned. Which is what we really are: concerned about Obama as a candidate who won't win.

    Myth #2. Again, emotional women being angry. Are we seeing a theme? This myth also includes a lie: that it is "over". Obama is not the official candidate until August's vote and his delegate count was close enough and more things have been popping up about him, real and potent concerns about his viability that I suggest spindoctors stop using that don't-count-your-chickens-'till-they're-hatched phrase.

    Myth #3: Now not only are all Clinton supports emotional women, but now we're catty and jealous women. Can anyone spell sexism?

    Myth #4: The irony.

    Myth #5: Just insert slurs against blacks instead of sexism on behalf of the media and moderate dems wouldn't even need to be mad. Those anchors would've lost their jobs the same day.

    Myth #6 Who's Howard Dean (lol)

    Myth #7: Yes, we are mad at Barack Obama, men and women both, whites and minorities both for blatantly stealing the great Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s persona while beating back fellow minorities at the Chicago Senate election. Hypocrisy should make anyone mad.

    Myth #8: Yes, I'm so angry with Bill Clinton for fostering our nation's strongest economy in US history during his 8-year tenure in the Oval Office that I'm seeing red. Ooops.. that red must be the economy right now...sorry...my mistake..

    Myth #9: People make mistakes. We forgive Mark Penn. But will superdelegates forgive themselves if they make the fatal error of nominating a man like Barack Obama?

    Myth #10 Hillary Clinton DID NOT CONCEDE. Look up the word "suspend" in the dictionary. It's about time someone did. She holds her delegates for a formal vote at the convention...Just like she said she would. And her not conceding is why BigMedia/GOP is reining in its harsh treatment for Obama until September.

    Myth #11 Wow, we're not sterotyping here are we? That writers can get away with this is amazing. It would be like me saying all Obama supporters are black, old and racist. How do they get away with statements like this? Oh I forgot, being racist against whites (and elderly apparently) and sexism are all Jim Dandy with everyone. And we wonder why prejudice won't die..

    Myth #12: Held hostage by our reproductive organs?
    This myth is tailored as all of them to make all Clinton supporters be female, old, emotional and white racists. The entire list is an attempt to galvanize male, young, sober-headed non-racists to either Obama or McCain...I can't figure which. In the end it doesn't matter. Obama and McCain both represent the same thing: dirty tricks and manipulating prejudice to affect a McCain victory in the Fall.

    *************

    Look for these types of articles to get more daring as time goes on. I cannot believe it was published here other than as a joke or to spur obvious debate. Yet the lack of much discussion tells me that people are accepting this as fact. It goes to show how ingrained prejudice really is.
  • christoofar
    1. They are angry because their candidate lost a close contest.

    She ran a poor campaign. Be mad at her, not Obama.

    2. They are angry because their historic opportunity is over.

    Says who? Are women giving up now?

    3. They are angry about rumors that Obama may choose a woman other than Hillary Clinton as his running mate.

    They are angry at "rumors"?

    4. They are angry that we started to talk about sexism only once Clinton stopped being a threat.

    Again..how is this Obama's fault? I guess we can overlook Bill & Hill Clinton's racist comments for the time being, cuz that's different.

    5. They are angry at the media’s repeated denial of sexism, and they are angry at Keith Olbermann.

    OK, great .What does this have to do with Obama again???

    Well....I guess these angry women could switch over & vote MCCain, since he's proven himself to be quite supportive of issues important to women....
  • Aquater
    Joe's "reasons" are all emotional whinings: personal anger is the only common element running through them. Joe could do better than putting it in such prejudiced manner. By reducing women's disagreement to personal anger he has confirmed the gender stereotypes. If he is unable to penetrate women's thinking on the topic, he should say so but not opt to convert it to emotion in a stereotypical male manner.
    I signed in recently to TMV thinking that here perhaps is a real moderate voice above party-mongering. But the irrational tone of articles against Kristol and Joe's own stereotypical reduction of women's intellect to anger smacks of male liberal leaning in the site. I will consider dropping out if the liberal bias persists and both sides are not given their intellectually honest dues.
    To clarify, ideological dogmatism occurs when the other side is painted in a distorted way. If you are rational, there won't be a need to do that. Because you will then be engaging in an honest debate guided by reason and not partisan dogma. There is one criterion to find out if you have not understood someone and have engaged in premature and illicit "criticism": The other party strongly disagrees with your caricature. I am sure women who are concerned here would reject Joe's caricature of them as simply emotional whiners.
  • vwcat
    As a white 50 year old woman I am so sick and tired of these Clinton supporters. No other demographic who have experienced a let down because a candidate they supported have gotten so much attention. And that is exactly why these spoiled babies are acting the way they are. They want everyone to drop everything and give them unlimited attention and coo poor baby.
    My god! It's a damn election! It's politics! Not a feelings session at some therapists office.
    Get over it. Get over yourselves.
    What these women need is lessons on politics and how it's done. Not more hand holding and babbling over their feelings!
    These women need to understand that the world does not revolve around them and to quit with the excessive self obsession and wallowing in self pity!
  • As a woman who read Joe's article, I know that that is not his list. It is Rebecca Traister's list. This is Summer; politics move slowly enough that you can read a blog post fully before commenting on it. However much time it took you to write your comment, it would have taken less time to read Rebecca Traister's article on Salon (which I happened to read and disagree with).
  • roro80
    Did anyone actually read the linked article? Even I identified with quite a few of the items listed, and I am planning on happily casting my vote for Obama in November. (In fact, my spouse and I both liked both candidates, and decided to each vote for one of them.) Despite liking Obama and rolling my eyes at certain tactics of the Clinton campaign, I think that a lot of the "angry at..." comments would apply to me, especially those that speak to the sexism of the coverage, and how so many men who are considered "progressive" collectively stuck their fingers in their ears and told the women-folk to stop being so sensitive every time the issue was brought up. It became utterly and sadly clear that women's support of mainstream progressive issues is very welcome as long as we don't expect support on our own progress. Disheartening, to say the least.
  • Holly_in_Cincinnati
    I'm angry that the Democratic nominee is so unqualified for the Presidency that I may have to vote for the G.O.P. nominee.
  • runasim
    roro30 makes an efficient synopsis of why women are angry and frustrated.

    When supporting feminism is represented by supporting a particular woman, though, it gets complicated, because that woman is also a person and a politician. I'm not sure what "support on our own issues' means when it comes to supporting particular candidates.

    It is true that signs of sexism were largely ignored by the media and in commentary. At times, such claims were ridiculed. That's something that should, indeed, be highlighted. It's a far stretch, though, to conclude that inattention to sexism was the primary determinant of the support Hillary failed to get. There were so many other issues involved (the Clinton brand and past, campaign tactics, etc), it's impossible to seperate out the direct effect of sexism. Let's not forget, also, that voters had to choose between two candidates. As one was black and the other a woman, one bloc's hopes were inescapably going to be thwarted.

    The most important issue now concerns how to handle the disappointment.
    Who should be blamed? It's the blame heaped on Obama that is the most troubling. Okay, rivalry always produces a degree of animosity. How that translates into gender issues, I fail to see. If Hillary had won, could she justifiably be accused of racism, even though she intimated that race would be an issue in the election Aside from deliberately losing, what could Obama have done to demonstrate his support of feminism while oppposing Hillary as a competitor?

    There is another kink in evaluating sexism's role in the outcome. How can the negative effects be honestly weighed against the benefit provided by support gained simply because Hillary is a woman? Disappointed women can't look at only one side of the scale, if they go about this clinically.

    The truth is, IMO, that our culture is alarmingly backward about gender, race, as well as class. Actively encouraging progress is urgent. Choosing how to do it is even more crucial. Advocay is good; overkill is counter productive.
    For example, if women don't want to be described as shrill and catty, they shouldn't be shrill and catty in their advocacy.
  • Aquater
    Janinedm's point would be truely applicable if Joe had shown any concerns about Rebecca Traister's list. But he did not. What he said under "Danger for Obama" does not indicate any disagreement with the list. And he goes on to use the list. Such a tacit approval of the list makes it difficult to shift blame to the so-called original maker of the list. In any case the logical point still stands. Naturalistic fallacy in a statement remains intact regardless of the maker of the statement. Also, there is no indication that Joe made his statement as a derivative from Rebecca's in any way. It was self-contained and must be treated that way.
  • It also makes it difficult to call it "Joe's list." I don't even agree with Traister's article. I'm just saying I don't think you read it until after you were called out.

    Also, there is no indication that Joe made his statement as a derivative from Rebecca's in any way. It was self-contained and must be treated that way.


    I'm using Netscape. I see indentations that denote block quotes.
  • Personal pet peeve. I have blogger friends who tend toward longish posts and I hate when people comment without reading. I'd take a million its/it's switches if people just read.
  • Aquater
    You are a huge fuss!
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Frankly, my grandchildren were more mature at the age of 3 than the displays and attitudes I've seen from the Clinton supporters. Sorry, but I've read Silhouette's posts, Holly's posts and gone and checked out the Clinton "support" sites that are pushing for signing her name in or voting for McCain. Color me unimpressed. Those sites are vicious, venal, insulting and extremely short on facts. I was quite forcibly reminded of comments sections on Redstate, Powerlines and Little Green Footballs at its nadir.

    Holly says that experience trumps all, so McCain should be elected. It doesn't matter if that experience has taught him nothing but to support about 80% (To be generous to McCain.) of Bush's policies. Remember that Bush had much less experience than Obama in public service. Yet McCain's vast reservoir of wisdom has done nothing but teach him that Bush's policies are the way to go in most things. So what good is any of that vaunted experience? He wants Bush's tax cuts. He wants Bush's economic policies. He wants Bush's Supreme Court nominees. So why don't those who find McCain so wonderful just push for a way for Bush to run again? Obviously they must love his first two terms. Why else vote for a continuation of his policies on most issues? Anyone?
  • Any Hillary supporter that says they will vote for McCain, the king of flip flopping, the master of voting against anything that will promote Womens Rights, a hugh
    participant in getting our country in the mess we are in, a supporter of this
    unjustified war (any any other that will come along), creating a deficit that
    will be a hugh burden to our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren.,
    destroyed our economy and is taking part in eliminating the middle class insults voters intelligence. And disgusts the people who really believe we need a
    change. The people who can see beyond pettiness.
  • TMZ
    Here's a reason why not to vote for Obama. They have a lot of mean supporters who are wanting to always argue with you and who say nothing is wrong with their candidate and who hate Hillary. You can't say anything for they walk on eggshells. You get angry and want to blow up at them. Ignorant people who are a disservice to their candidate. Listen to Paula Adele youtube clips and she will tell you why she is for McCain. My reason is simple I like him better than Obama. I am skeptical of Obama. Everyday it is something else with him. He isn't doing much now to get anybody new on his side. Even some smarter people know his weakness. I get why people support him that were for other candidates, it's just cause of the war and a bunch of maybes. Like that he will fix the economy. We shall see if he is elected. But to me his negatives out way his positives. I'll add that to me it is his politics, but I get why some may go against him out of spite instead. This election is not really about McCain, It's about Obama. He's made a lot of supporters and has made a lot of people who dislike him with passion.
  • TMZ
    I'll add if it ruins Hillary's chances to win later on then so be it. She was treated unfairly at times. But all that aside. I would rather not have Obama in office. Hillary was already ruined by the Party. To me this has shifted from being about her to being about Obama. As I said this election is all about him. I'll even add that if another black candidate ran I would have voted. But Obama is no Jesse Jackson. And I hold nothing against those who vote Obama, but like voting for Bush, they are very mistaken and democrats made a poor choice.
  • obamaman
    Hey Holly. Stop listening to all the hear say and look up some facts for yourself. Barack sits on 3 out of 4 foreign relations Jobs in the senate. He has more public service years than Hillary Clinton. 6 years for her and 8 years for him. You cant count being the husband of the President considering she doesn't have the same security clearance as her husband(and still doesn't). Please look up Barack cpmplete record before you fall for George Bushes politics plan and vote awy your right and keep the country going in the same direction. We have to many problems in this country to let Republicans run it for another four years.
  • Holly_in_Cincinnati
    This email address is protected by EarthLink spamBlocker. Your
    email message has been redirected to a "suspect email" folder for
    Holly R. In order for your message to be moved to her Inbox, she must add your
    email address to a list of allowed senders. She cannot do this until you send
    her a message.

    https://webmail.pas.earthlink.net/wam/addme?a=h...
  • obamaman
    Where were you PUMAS when Bush stole the election. I mean you really have to listen to yourselves. And I really think thats a reflection of whats wrong with our country. Spoiled brats that dont get their way and cry till Mommy sticks her tit in your mouth. YOU
    MEAN TO TELL ME THAT THE MORALS AND VALUES YOU HAVE IN YOUR HEART WOULD LET YOU VOTE FOR FOUR MORE YEARS OF OUR COUNTRY GOING TO HELL, JUST BECAUSE YOUR MAD THAT YOUR CANDIDATE DIDNT GET ELECTED. YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE ROE V WADE THREATENED AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION GO AWAY(IT HELPS WOMEN ALSO). MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS GO TO IRAQ FOR THE NEXT 100 YEARS. I personally believe that most of this dissent is made by the republicans. Think about it. When you want to over throw a government you get some of the people that feel like they don't have a voice,add some propaganda and presto you have an organization backed by the opposition to derail the government.. Hey we did it in Iran a long time ago why not elections. I think McCain was Around in those times, I know some Bush was. Point is don't be fooled into thinking these people have your best interest at heart. Most of the public defenders of Clinton that run these groups Voted for McCain or Bush and contributed to their campaings. Again you have a computer research a little instead of taking everyones words for things.
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