The Future
and Jason Steck (edited to add as co-signatory)
Some people seem to think that we may be considering resigning at TMV and simply to continue work at The Gazette. Just to make sure that these rumors will not spread we decided to publish this post as to say that we are not considering doing such a thing. We are proud to be on staff at TMV and plan to contribute here for a long time to come – as long as Joe allows it / TMV exists.
There are some things we criticize – mostly in the comment sections – normally it is about the tone of the debate and the fact (yes fact) that conservative contributors are treated with less respect and more anger (even hatred sometimes). When a conservative poster writes something criticizing a Democrat, certain commenters do not waste any time to insult said poster and to defend the Democrats by using all kinds of empty arguments (such as “but they do it too”). Although we are not a fan of debates like that, we also realize that many commenters are not like that and that many commenters and readers do want to read a non-liberal take on things.
So, we will continue to post here and will continue to engage in debates with readers of this blog. It is – with reason and deservedly so – one of the biggest Centrist blogs in the blogosphere and we are proud and happy to be part of it.
EDITOR’s NOTE: Comments on this post have been disabled due to numerous violations of TMV’s comment policy regarding TMV writers. Those offending comments plus comments of some others who have received warnings on other posts have been removed. Future violations will mean banning from the site.
Assistant Editor’s note: obviously, the criticism shortly mentioned in this post is not a one-way street. As could be witnessed in the comment section of this post, sometimes the roles are reversed (although in this case there were no insults involved as much as one particular poster became subject of debate while the article was not about this poster so it makes no sense to debate about him nonetheless). I find it a shame that the comment section had to be closed because of this: it was not the intention to let people debate posters – the intention of the post was to explain that, even though Jason and I offer criticism sometimes – we will continue to post at TMV because we think it is a great blog owned by a great blogger, person and friend.
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31 Responses to “The Future”
I certainly hope you don’t leave, Michael. I’m fairly new here but I really enjoy the tone this place has.
Sometimes it may get over the top but that is the nature of the blogosphere.
LOL! The first thing that came to mind when I read this post was how politicians, soon after they announce that they won’t do something, go ahead and do just that.
“More conservative Europeans” is the latest trend, Michael!!
I’m impressed that TMV was ahead of the curve in that regard and look forward to your continued contributions.
Besides at 40 to 4 here, we can ill afford to lose one.
I’m glad you’re not leaving.
Be back to bash you later, though!!
I agree with Flyer Hawk, but also feel that it is only fair to point out that liberal posters like Shaun Mullen and Michael Stickings also get attacked here regularly by conservative commenters. (Shaun was called an idiot just yesterday, and told that his posts bring disrepute to the entire site.)
Neither is ok, though–it just shows how partisan and really incapable of civil discussion many on the blogosphere really are at times. We all have our sore spots, and commenting here sometimes stretches our self-control. (not to excuse it in any way)
We should all try to remain civil as partisan attacks solve nothing. Hope you continue to post- as your posts are thought-provoking- though we often disagree.
BTW, I really don’t see this overwhelming Left majority here that some on the right are claiming.
If anything I would say this site is slightly Left of Center.
Of course you guys could just post a poll to get an idea of your constituency.
Just to stop any problems here before they start. Yes. Michael Stickings and Shaun Mullen have also had similar problems. The problem is that somehow when people write comments on weblogs they say things to someone with a lot more ease then they would say to their faces and become abusive. So there is a problem with comments on weblogs in general. Glenn Reynolds has seldom put comments on his site due to this tendency. There have been other bloggers over who deactivated comments.
There are a lot of issues and I’m not going to spend today on this one. But there is a general problem.
I had a post ready last night on comments about how I am very close to deleting ALL COMMENTS that pesonallyattack blogger on tmv immediately no matter what side it comes from or who it comes from — even from The Pope or my mother if they left them.
YES Michael Stickings and Shaun Mullen have experienced the same problem.
So before we veer into it, I am deleteing all comments that I see that personally insult and name call TMV bloggers. It’s not a matter of liberal or conservative.
Agreeing with flyerhawk and kritter, conservatives aren’t the only ones that get kicked around here. Shaun especially, though also David, often get plenty of less-than-civilized commentary. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if the two of you got more because liberals far outnumber conservatives on this blog, even though few of us, liberal or conservative overall, are very ideologically pure. I think that we have in common that if we went and expressed ourselves at more “pure” blogs closer to our ideological tendencies, we’d still be vilified and insulted.
I think the rumours, so far as they existed, have to do with comments of Jason’s where he stated that he’s been thinking of leaving the blog because of certain comments. I’m very happy to see that neither of you will be leaving, the blog would be much poorer without you. I personally wouldn’t want you to go Michael, you’re the only conservative I know that I can agree with most of the time!
A good rule of thumb is to comment as if the person to whom you are commenting is standing in front of you, is built like a linebacker, and has both a short temper and excellent legal representation.
From the comment policy section of John Scalzi’s Whatever blog.
Again I’m not going to use my time up today on this. But the section Tully quotes is on the dime. (The problem is today you have road rage and even supermarket rage so even that may not be enough). I will have to post my post now on deleting personal attack comments tomorrow morning. But I am going to delete any comments I personally see that hurl insults at any tmv writers. Comments are simply not offered here for that. Comments are to discuss issues. People are banned less frequently on TMV than on many other blogs (I know that because I have discussed this issue over the past year with some top liberal and conservative bloggers). But the problem comes from both sides and it won’t be continuing on TMV.
Here are the guidelines I once posted at RedState. These were based on being the minority. They really apply in both directions. While the risk of banishment here isn’t nearly as great I do believe that if people generally followed these guidelines discussions on the blogosphere would be much more civil. Anyway YMMV…..
1. Be respectful – Be respectful of people and their views. Don’t try to force them to say what you believe they are thinking. Be honest.
2. Never make assumptions – Never assume that ANY of your beliefs will be accepted at face value. If you make any claims be prepared to back them up.
3. Stay away from the bait – There are some posters who enjoy throwing out chum for unsuspecting Liberals to chomp on, only to find that the chum has taken them into shark infested waters. Don’t let yourself get baited into saying things that you KNOW will upset the powers that be.
4. Don’t respond to instigators – There are some posters that will try and get under your skin. They like a good knife fight, especially when they know there is a sniper trained on their opponent should things get ugly. When you see someone like that simply stop responding to them.
5. Leave your emotions at the door – Politics are a passionate topic. It is hard to stay dispassionate about your views. But if you allow your emotions to take charge of your comments you are doomed to banishment.
BTW, the diversity in opinion among posters and commenters is exceptional here, and is the best thing about the site, imo. So much healthier than the lefty and righty sites that routinely blast the other side for the slightest indiscretion, while ignoring their own foibles. Keep up the good work- TMV is still my favorite!
As one who has problems with Shaun in particular, but not David or even Michael Stickings *who hasn’t been around as much lately), Shaun is a different story.
He uses inflammatory and derogatory language in his top-level posts and commentaries, and invites ‘rough-and-tumble’ discourse as a result.
If the rule is no name calling Joe, then it needs to apply to the editors as well, and not just in the comment section, but in their front page work as well. To be fair, they can criticize policy, actions, etc., but they too should have to avoid calling the President (and others) an idiot or worse.
IMHO.
Yes, they do. And when I see that, those comments get deleted too. As they should. As a matter of fact, the only actual banning that has occurred here in the last few months was someone who was going after Shaun and lefties generally, not someone who was going after me, Michael, or righties generally. Unfortunately, some misinformation has been spread that ignores this and has led to unnecessary acrimony and abuse. I am hoping that the latest incident will be the last time we have to revisit these issues.
Austin,
There is a pretty big difference between calling the President an idiot and calling Shaun, or any other poster here, an idiot.
One is a political statement and one is a personal attack.
The President is a big boy. He can handle the abuse. Just because someone calls President Bush an idiot or Barack Obama an empty suit doesn’t mean we should switch to pitbull mode to defend them.
Attack the argument, not the person.
As moderator, I use the “public person” doctrine similar to that found in libel/slander law. That means there is a substantially looser standard (but not completely unlimited — vulgar comments can still be deleted) used in regards to comments about public figures than for comments about TMV contributors and commenters.
I am mentioning this, by the way, for information, not to debate the point or to debate its application to any specific circumstance.
This is a sophisticated site…..we employ psych-ops tactics as well.
Well, I just want to say that you all are right/left wing hacks who obviously are mentally deficient and probably can’t even change your own diapers……
Oh wait – sorry – wrong blog!
Joe Gandelman said,
If you think I wouldn’t say those things to Mullen’s face, you are gravely mistaken, Joe. I stand by what I said about Mullen, viz. the things Kritter noted in his/her 6:35 comment.
Sorry Austin. I this blog has never been CSPAN. I already see danger signs in this thread. If this devolves into yet another attack on writers of TMV or the fact we dare take stands then this whole comments thread needs to be disabled. This thread is not going to devolve into what we saw here two days ago. Also, I had a post i did not run noting that commenters who insult writers are going to have their posts immediately deleted and if it happens often they will be banned. It does not matter if the commenter is right, left, center The Pope or my mother. Comments are not meant to attack and insult people because someone disagrees with their ideas. If you don’t like a blogger here is a bovel idea: just don’t read his or her posts and dont’ comment on them. If this comment thread vanishes it will because it has deteriorated into another attack thread. TMV is a blog about NEWS and about ISSUES and offering analysis. We;re not set up to be a site about analzying our site and we’re not going to become that.
My advice to everyone is to move on to issues.
BTW- can someone fix the post numbers so that the 2 from 20 something comments is not lost?
On the far left side of the post column.
Well, WRT to Shaun, I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, and don’t care for the way he frames many issues, but I think he’s a valuable addition to this site. Everyone’s version of “moderate” is different, after all.
with so much drama in the LBC, it’s kinda hard being Snoop D O Double G…
As to the difference between posts and comments there is a big one. I have yet to see a single post on this blog personally attacking any other person on the blog, either poster or commenter. Not so on the comments. This difference is key. Certainly some posts may be considered inflammatory, especially those that start with “liberals/conservatives” or “those on the right/left” etc. Whenever you generalize, you’re bound to step on some toes. But the comments that are really usually the issue aren’t the ones making generalities, even wild ones, about certain GROUPS, but those that go after specific INDIVIDUALS. For example, saying “all conservatives are idiots” is inflammatory (besides being ridiculous) but not necessarily censor-worthy (though way outside the stated purpose of the blog) but saying “Jason is an idiot” is personal and should not be tolerated.
Anyone is welcome to think that certain posts aren’t moderate (in fact I’ll bet a certain proportion of the readers will think that about virtually EVERY post) but that doesn’t justify making it personal in the comments. I can’t even count the number of times opposition to illegal immigration has been said to just be racism and I don’t take it personally against the poster, though I vigorously disagree.
Oh, and to second cosmo, I’d really like to see the first number of two-digit comments too.
SIMON: Yesterday someone emailed me saying you expredssed regret at what happened to days ago. This your FINAL WARNING. Comments are not going to be used to blast the sincerity of all the people with diverse viewpoints who write on TMV. Michael’s post here is a basic clarification. I don’t go to your site and run comments saying you’re hypocritical or not moderate or conservative or liberal enough. THIS IS NOT WELCOME and it was made clear two days ago.
I think it’s true that there have been attacks against both conservative and liberal commenters here, but I have a hard time understanding how the blog posts of the conservatives here can be considered as incendiary as some of the more left leaning bloggers’ posts. Shaun and Michael Stickings do use provocative language, constantly. Do MvdG and Jason Steck? I just don’t see it. Simply disagreeing with their viewpoints strongly isn’t the same as having an emotional reaction to a gratuitously inflammatory post. The latter seems more like baiting of conservatives rather than a call for thoughtful discussion on an issue.
So, for what it’s worth, that’s my take on the difference. However, I won’t defend conservative commenters who resort to personal attacks when they have those emotional reactions to some of the bombs that are thrown out in the posts. To some degree I agree with Joe: if you don’t like a particular blogger, skip his posts. I do sometimes skip Shaun’s. Frankly I don’t like doing that (and it affects my readership of TMV altogether, and could lead to my dropping it off of my read list if the trend continues) because I WANT to read viewpoints that challenge my own. However, I want to read those that are phrased in a way that the writer doesn’t dismiss all opposing views as asinine. Reading posts like that is an exercise in self control, and sometimes I’d rather not put myself to that test.
When I do choose to read Shaun’s posts, if I feel I want to be bothered with responding, I just resist the urge to stoop to the level of insults. It’s not really that hard to poke holes in his logic rather than calling him names
As cosmo noted, I feel that I’ve engaged in some very heated, but rational and productive, discussions with bloggers and commenters here and I hope that I will continue to find that more the rule than the exception here. Lately it’s been seeming to be more trouble than it’s worth. But that’s a decision for me to make personally, and then Joe can choose to either react if people move on or to not react if he feels the blog is what he wants it to be.
I’m disabling comments on this post for the first time in tmv history because of comments about writers. That could wipe out this post. I am almost deleting all posts that go after tmv writers. This is not welcome on TMV. I’ve left some in that dealt with other issues and were not as insulting. But such comments attacking and insulting site writers will removed and repeated offenders will not be allowed to comment on posts no matter what their ideology. READ OUR COMMENTS GUIDELINES BELOW
Also read Michael dvg’s note on the intent of his post.
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