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Tear Down This Wall
RJ Matson, The St. Louis Post Dispatch
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16 Responses to “Tear Down This Wall”
Here’s a little ‘entertainment’ for the Just-kick-em-all-out crowd…
Oh, and you guys… Hope you all fathers out there have a Happy Fathers Day and have a change to get together with all your family.
As CSN said Teach Your Children Well
You know Im a conservative republican who is in favor of Amnesty.
But the more the left screams bigots and the more the left belittles OUR concerns the more I am starting to favor throwing the people out as the rest of my party is saying.
Good job. And the left demands moderation. The only moderation they demand is that the RIGHT moves closer to their side of things.
I think very few of the people opposing “amnesty” are bigots. I also don’t think they have very much credibility because of their lack of a viable alternative plan. And truth be told, in spite of the claims of some fruitcakes, very few people in the “left” are screaming bigot.
I think the immigration issue is far more complex than the conservative-liberal divide. Oh I’ll bet there are more conservatives against Amnesty than liberals, but the lines seem fuzzy, at best. I’ve seen conservatives call for a path to citizenship and liberals rise up against amnesty. Somebody, you’re a conservative that favors amnesty, and I’m a liberal (mostly anyway) that opposes it vehemently. I think the usual labels and borders don’t apply well on this issue.
That said, I (almost) feel sorry for Bush on this issue. It’s a rare exception that he tries to create bipartisan consensus on an issue, and he’s gotten pray little thanks for it. Mind you, I oppose his view on immigration, but I appreciate the idea of trying to create consensus.
The pro-amnesty crowd lost credibility from the very beginning when they would not stop lying: The argument has gone from security certification, to its not really amnesty and its only for honest people, to we cannot send them back, to anyone ooposed to us is a racist.
Every time the pro-amnesty crowd has made a public state or come out with a talking point, they have been shown to be lying. Why anyone would support such politicians, I have no idea.
Thoughtful commentary like Somebody’s (and superdestroyer’s) is a prime reason more and more people, originally against inclusion, are having second thoughts. Please don’t change your approach in any way.
BTW – “left scream[ing] bigots?”… “belittl[ing of y]OUR concerns”?… In this post? I missed ‘em, but then I’m a leftie, so if you’d point them out it would help me understand your comment.
There you go SteveK
I was responding to the cartoon SteveK..
Not you.
Oh trust me SteveK
I will continue to evaluate all my positions on a daily basis. I do not root my beliefs in etched in stone mentality as do some. I am open to change based upon the prevailing logic of each and every situation that develops.
I am opposed to building a wall and throwing people out. However as the Democrats want this bill SO badly I have to wonder to myself
WHY?
I have stated my objections to this bill over and over and over again. It has nothing to do with amnesty, bigotry or anything else. It is simple mathematics. If the Democrats want it and some Republicans want it…….I have to challenge why and it becomes painfully obvious why they want this bill.
Both parties want the massive influx of Immigrants to continue to benefit from the tax dollars they receive (Sales tax, luxury tax, gasoline tax, cigarette tax, booze tax….etc…etc.)so they will not have to make hard choices about a swelling budget deficit that is becoming mind boggling. Both parties will leave that to future generations. Massive immigration swells the tax base, creates demands for new goods and services and keeps the country growing…………ALL great talking points for both parties.
The reason we do not have an energy policy is because Energy is Cheap. When energy becomes painful then we will have an energy policy with teeth. The reason we do not have an Immigration policy that is observed is because Immigration is the cheapest way possible to pay for Stuff and not be held accountable. It is not until this becomes a painful experience for Americans will we see a policy with Teeth.
So IN this respect the Republicans are being Fiscally unsound once again in order to address a problem that will become painful in 20 or 30 years. The same prevailing philosophy that the democrats use on Global Warming. They can see it as plain as day……….why not tackle it now?
This is what Republicans are saying about immigration. It is a problem that must be addressed now…Not 30 or 40 years from now when it is REALLY a problem. There must be a solution to all these problems or this country will face dire consequences.
SteveK….Immigration is the politicians way of continuing to run deficits with the obscure and fiscally unsound economic policy that a growing and expanding base will actually shrink the budget deficit not increase it.
What I mean is that if the GDP grows to 4 trillion then the percentage of DEBT reduces…..Percent is what drives them.
If you make 50,000 a year and owe 2000 a month in bills you pay 48 percent of your income to paying bills. Now if you get a loan that adds 200 a month to your Bills then you are paying more of a percent towards your debt. However if you gain 10,000 a year in income due to a raise, the 200 dollars a month loan added to the 2000 actually decreases the percent of your GDP that is going to your debt. It drops from 48 to 44 percent even though you have actually increased your debt.
Immigration is all about keeping the GDP to debt ratios either stagnate or diminishing. That is why in 1972 when we had the oil embargo and gas went to 65 cents a gallon it was PAINFUL. Today with gas at 300 Plus a gallon it is not. Its all relative to the GDP to Debt ratio of a nation and of individuals.
Immigration is nothing more then a shifty and deluded way to prevent America from addressing her debt issues with the sure and certain promise of a RECKONING someday in the future.
Somebody,
I didn’t think you were talking to me in your comment (#2)… FWIW, when I reply to your comments I know it sometimes sounds personal, guess sometimes it is, but that is not my intent. I do disagree with many of the positions you take on many topics but I’m glad we have a forum where we can talk (argue) about them. Maybe we won’t change the world with our opinions but we might learn to talk to one other a little nicer.
I really didn’t see “bigots†or “belittling of conservative concerns†in the cartoon… My first thought was Reagan’s “Tear Down that Wall Speech†meets the “I’m a klutz – Bush personaâ€. lol
May I recommend golf? It’s the perfect sport for bloggers because you’re required to comply with strict rules of absolute courtesy and integrity while wandering in an environment of total frustration… It’s grand!
Imagine blogging with the enemy and after a few hours finding a new friend…the exercise is just a plus.
Somebody,
Saw you comment #8 right after posting #9.
I’ve got some Saturday Morning chores that HAVE TO GET DONE or I’ll be spending the rest of the weekend in the “doghouse”. I promise to get back to it, and you, later this evening.
I agree completely with Lynx. It is much more complex that only two sides. I, for one, agree with the position that says we absolutely must gain control of our border with Mexico. It is in fact our right as a nation and a prerequisite to any reasonable solution of our problems concerning illegal immigration across that border.
I also believe that there is no realistic way for us to simply round up and expel all of the illegal immigrants who are already here but am open to any realistic solutions. The economic arguments about the necessity of keeping them here for “jobs that Americans won’t take” is only partially valid. There are jobs that they do that Americans don’t want. They are also taking jobs that Americans will take such as jobs in the construction trades. Of course one of the things that many employers leave out of that sentence is the coda “…at wages I’m willing to pay.”.
Somebody,
I’ve had a chance to look over you last post and will attempt to reply to the points you make… I’ve been out doing yard work all day and am tired so take my comments with that in mind.
Regards, Steve
I don’t understand why you think this is a Democrat / Republican thing. I subscribe to a newspaper, check news online, participate at TMV, read C & L, watch Olbermann AND The Daily Show. :] Plus I talk with neighbors and everyone at the golf course (both democrat and republican) … From my limited exposure I don’t often hear it spun as a partisan issue but when I do it’s always seems to come from the right side of the room. Maybe it’s getting a lot of play from Rush and/or Fox News but as I don’t listen to that stuff, I couldn’t tell you.
Immigration has ALWAYS been simple mathematics. Actually… a simple dollar sign followed by numbers and it has ALWAYS had three main parts.
Two parts will ALWAYS benefit (business and the immigrant) and one part will ALWAYS be in a constant state of fear, flux and confusion (the middle class worker). Hell, that’s why we get old and die!
“Them damn chinks, they’re taking all the jobs…”
“Them damn wops/micks they’re taking all the jobs…”
“Them damn beaners I they’re taking all the jobs…”
“Them damn *name pending* they’re taking all the jobs…”
That’s just how it goes! Things / times change. The status quo is ALWAYS changing. If something doesn’t grow… it rots.
Absolutely! Democrats are saying it, too!
What reasonable people (from all sides) want to happen is for the problem to be addressed… BUT they want it addressed by Adults.
Name-calling, attempting childish amendments to stall or kill the bill, and 5000 mile fences by beer drinking rednecks*** are NOT addressing the problem.
IMO you’re missed the boat regarding the cause of our current fiscal problems and trying to shift the blame on immigrants, while leaving out any mention of our *Ahem” main JUMBO expense is at best disingenuous… Immigrants are NOT a major cause of the fiscal mess we’re in.
I accept, and agree with you, that we should be concerned about our countries financial health: GDP, growing national debt, etc. but don’t you think that 200+ billion a year in Iraq might be a little bit more responsible for our current predicament than the immigrants?
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Bertrand Russell said it well, “The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.” Think maybe he lived in a time when they were having troubles with another immigration problem?
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***For the “Let’s build a fence” crowd let me suggest that you go to 32°37’10″ N 115°59’00″ W on Google Earth… head east and follow the US / Mexico Border… let me know which 5 miles you want to fence (PS – Sorry, but the green areas growing crops and the town already have fences… pick another spot)
I did not blame the budget mess on IMMIGRANTS….I said they are trying to use Immigrants to FIX it or more accurately give it a bandaide.
Our budget woes go way deeper then Iraq. For people to blame Iraq is an easy out. But it goes way deeper then that. It goes to the heart of a nation that is run by irresponsible teenagers who are given an unlimited VISA card and told to act responsibly.
This bill actually increases immigration five fold, while only putting a bandaid on illegal immigration. At the end of the next 20 years we will have 100 million new immigrants in addition we will have 10 million more illegals.
There comes a point SteveK where a country cannot sustain any economic pace. We are in the midst of an economic development driven by a new technology. Computers and the internet etc….which have increased worker productivity exponentially.
Eventually this will end. Productivity will peak, the economy will no longer be able to sustain expansion and therefore it will shrink.
The reckoning I discuss has nothing to do with where these immigrants come from. It has everything to do with the pure and simple mathematical models that predict a massive recession which will take years to recover from.
It seems the first thing to go is the truth. Here is why. people know they are opposed to the Immigration bill. They are just not sure why. So things are put into talking points so the ordinary citizen does not have to think.
Bigots….Amnesty…..Fence…..Free Borders.
Therefore people make snap decisions on what they believe without doing any research or study of their own.
I’m with the working class liberals on this issue 100%. They are very against amnesty, but the answer in their minds are fine/imprision the employers of illegal aliens. No jobs for them, the vast majority go home where strangely enough they have too few workers now. Then you can much more easily round up those that are here still, and send them home. If this country needs more workers from outside the country we can then add to the amount we take in legally each year.
I don’t think this is too radical an idea, and makes not following the law have consequences for both the illegal alien, and the americans benefitting from the low wage employees they are getting illegally.
I agree Pyst. I have said the solution all along is simply a national ID and stiff fines for the employers and the employees as well as people who rent to illegals.
These three things alone would not curb but it would drastically reduce Illegal immigration to a trickle.
The problem still remains to avoid a reckoning in the next few years the politicians want to play games with the numbers. Letting immigrants “swarm” into the USA allows them to keep their jobs and keep the economy on track till they retire or are voted out.
We’ve seen this time after time with Social Security amd Medicare, and yes, it’s true for the overall federal budget and swelling federal government. Those in power now will be retired or dead by the time the problems begin to become not only serious but painful. (Budget reform should begin with greatly reducing or terminating the retirement pay and benefits those people formerly in power are enjoying.)