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Presbyterian Church Ordains Gay Minister
Good to see that they are willing to accept that God loves everyone.
Sad that some feel the need to hate (I have no issue with those who have sincere difference of opinion as to Biblical position on homosexuality but some just hate.)
27 Responses to “Presbyterian Church Ordains Gay Minister”
I’m glad to hear that because all to often the naritive seems to be that one cannot have any contrary opinion without being called names. I will say that even as a non religious person I have no doubt that regardless of where he would come down on the issue Jesus would seems like a guy that would treat everyone with love and respect.
As to my own opinion, I don’t think it’s a dang bit of my buisness what anyone does if it doesn’t affect me or victemizes someone else. Since a persons sexuality doesn’t fall into either of those catagories who cares what I think
God loves the sinner but hates the sin. Why do these Presbyterians hate God? Why would they elect a practicing sinner to be an example for Christ?
Well Allen, at the risk of getting into a theological debate, there is considerable question as to how to interpret Bibical passages on sexuality.
Not every Christian feels that every gay person is a sinner.
Patrick-
True, there are different interpretations of scripture, but not regarding sexuality. Only of late do we see this neo-Christian re-interpretation or gross bastardization of the word of God. Christianity is not the inclusion of everybody that’s “nice“, but everybody that follows scripture or at least tries too. Gay people can be Christian, but not while practicing an abomination. They should be ashamed of their sin, not an advocate of it. Then to actually be a leader of the flock as an example of a life style representing Christ is far from the origins of Christianity. Had they changed and forsaken homosexuality forever, then yes of course! Unfortunately they have not. So IMO this is just a new low for the faith and another failure of mankind.
I don’t want to compare gay people to Hitler, but Hitler was the greatest example of bastardizing Christianity by instilling in his legions a necessity to destroy the Jews. Christianity is not what you make it, it’s what you follow.
“Gay people can be Christian, but not while practicing an abomination. They should be ashamed of their sin, not an advocate of it.”
Allen,
Sometimes I could swear you are a more subtle,slick, learned-my-lesson reincarnation of FT.
I am probably wrong and, if so, I apologize.
Only time will tell. Certain phobia are hard to control or hide.
So the Presbyterian church has ordained an openly homosexual minister.
Good for them! How progressive.
I wonder when that church will ordain an openly adulterous minister? Or an openly larcenous minister?
The Christian Bible states that all have sinned and fall short. OK, fine. We’re all in the same boat, and need to tread lightly.
Many churches say they are hospitals for sick people, not country clubs for the perfect. And I agree. But the goal of hospitalization is to improve the condition of the sick by those more educated and healthy than the afflicted.
The Presbyterian church has obviously missed that point.
Jesus did not say to the woman caught in adultery “Go and lead the church!” He said “Go and sin no more.”
The Bible in general, and Jesus in particular, addressed sexual sin on several occasions and condemned it every time.
He emphasized many points by stating “I have not come to destroy the Law, but fulfill it!” The Eleventh Commandment is the best summation if this fact. This is simplistically reduced down to ‘hate the sin, but love the sinner.’
Yet, this idea is often excoriated by a world that despises the concept of ‘sin.’
But to the Faithful of many different religions, sexual sin is a egregious transgression that has dire consequences, not only for the individual, but family members and society (the tragic particulars are obvious).
Still, the specious slander of ‘phobia’ is all too often hurled when there are reasonable arguments against sexual sin based upon evidence and reason, as well as faith.
My father is a Presbyterian minister, and has kept his connection, even while he was preacher for a different denomination. This has been a long time in the making, and very contentious. I’ve read both rather silly arguments and serious looks at biblical interpretation (anyone who thinks faith is a matter of indoctrination and unthinking followers, obviously has NOT been in the middle of a good theological disagreement).
Also, many years ago, the gay movement was quite different than that of today. At one meeting, a group offered a resolution that would allow gays as accepted members, provided that they have a monogamous relationship. It was shouted down vigorously — by the gay advocates.
There are stories behind the stories.
It is one thing for a religious person to believe that gay activity a sin, but is an entirely different thing (and sometimes a very small step) for some to call gays abnormal, abominations, monsters, and worse, much, much worse.
Dorian-
Slick?
FT?
Dorian, maybe I’m wrong, but I thought you said you were Catholic? I am surprised that you single my words out as somehow unacceptable to you. Catholics are even less open-minded to gays than I am by doctrine and practice.
The SIN is the abomination Dorian, the ACT of homosexual sexual acts are an abomination, and, that is what I said. Of course we are all sinners but we must become repentant. we must change. The person might be very nice but unrepentant, and, therefore unacceptable. The continuance of the abomination, removes them from the body.
I never said Monster.
Prof-
Its simply a matter of sin.
If you are a believer, then you put aside sin as a sacrifice. You repent. You make a conscious exercise to stop sinning. You will undoubtedly fail more than once because we are in a fallen world and there are many sins to commit. Faithful churches remove unrepentant sinners from the Body of Christ to protect the congregation from contamination as much as is possible. An unrepentant homosexual will be removed just as an unrepentant heterosexual fornicator. They are both equally the same and cannot be the Sheppard of the flock. This is critical. Especially in the end times.
But you know, the charismatic’s may be right, these may be the end times. Who knows?
@Allen
I tried to respond, and keep getting a spam-block message.
So I’ll just say that it’s not that simple. The scriptural arguments are good on both sides, and the real world doesn’t seem to discriminate against monogamous relations for either group.
Allen,
Yes, I was brought up in the Catholic religion, and I may have described myself as a Catholic.
However, IF (and that’s a BIG IF) being a Catholic includes hating, “ex-communicating,” deprecating or dehumanizing gay people; IF it means condemning women for necessary abortions, etc., etc., then color me a non-Catholic.
Dorian-
You need to talk to your Bishop. Because what you believe may be different. It’s about your credintials for entering the Kingdom of God. You either believe or you don’t believe and you need to be with the faith you believe in, if indeed you do believe.
Sorry Prof, but it is as simple as that. There is no debate. The faithful know it.
These churches “liberalizing” in the last decade after thousands of years are choosing popularity over scripture and merely boosting their dwindling congregations at the expense of their long held faith. Then again those that are changing don’t go back that far anyway. They are just yet again reinterpreting scripture to suit themselves.
Allen says:
Dorian-
“You need to talk to your Bishop.”
I don’t have a bishop. Haven’t had one since the “bishops” tolerated, protected pedophiles, etc.
” It’s about your credintials [sic] for entering the Kingdom of God.”
If the required credentials for “entering the Kingdom of God” are to judge others, demonize others, for their sexual orientation or for their religion (if it happens to be other than Catholicism or Christianity), or their principles (religious or otherwise) that don’t happen to have my/your approval, then I guess I won’t be entering your Kingdom. Perfectly content not to.
“You either believe or you don’t believe and you need to be with the faith you believe in, if indeed you do believe.”
I don’t share some of your beliefs, Allen,so I guess I am a non-believer and I guess I’ll pay the price—whatever you believe it to be.
Have a great day!
I dare say Dorian, you are not a Catholic. Within the Catholic Church, the Bishop IS the authority, not the lay member. You would be breaking some really big rules taking communion while in a state of mortal sin.
Can’t you see that I’m trying to help you?
You should be with the faith that keeps you closest to God. Become a Presbyterian then! Much better than losing your faith entirely. Dorian don’t let the world destroy you.
Allen Says:
“I dare say Dorian, you are not a Catholic.”
If you say so.
“Can’t you see that I’m trying to help you?”
It’s appreciated…
Ah, one of my favorite things. Churches should be allowed to include or exclude whomever they want…until they want to include people that you, personally, don’t like.
Allen, this: “I don’t want to compare gay people to Hitler, but Hitler was the greatest example of bastardizing Christianity by instilling in his legions a necessity to destroy the Jews” is pretty beyond the pale. Hilter was actually pretty dead set against the whole diversity thing — not so much into the whole “live and let live” or “love everyone” doctrines. More into kicking out those who are different, even if those differences are pretty superficial, and don’t affect the wellbeing of others in any way. I’d say that looks a lot more like what you’re advocating.
Your entire series of comments here seems to indicate that you, personally, get to decide what counts as God’s will, what he likes and does not like, and who does or does not count as a Catholic. Pretty much a Christian bossy-pants (“you need to” do this, “you need to” do that…) I’m pretty sure that God, if he existed, would have something to say about that. On any level, your comments to Dorian should make you ashamed of yourself. So should your bigotry.
I am a believer Dorian. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you.
RoRo–
Thing is you have no idea what you are talking about, nor what you are doing. Your badgering is childish and pointless.
For every measured degree of insult or any kind of suffering a Christian endures in his name, a reward many times over is allotted that Christian within the unseen world around us. So I will pray for you because you really need it.
@ Allen:
No problem, Allen.
I may not be a very good Christian/Catholic, but I am very forgiving.
Just a couple of things:
Keep in mind, in the future, that someone’s object of ridicule or hate may be someone else’s loving son (or daughter).
You may want patch things up with roro, too.
It’s ok, Dorian. I really don’t have much room in my life for people who hate people I love for no reason.
Allen — if you’ll pray for me, I’ll cast a spell to release your bigotry.
It’s not hatred roro.
It’s love.
“Gay people can be Christian, but not while practicing an abomination. They should be ashamed of their sin, not an advocate of it. ”
“I don’t want to compare gay people to Hitler, but [compares gays to Hitler]”
“The person might be very nice but unrepentant, and, therefore unacceptable.”
Ooohhh, the love is so palpable! I am deeply offended that you would attempt to enlist the help of a higher power to make me show my love in the same way you show your “love”. I don’t want to be like you — I do not show my love by judging others, calling them hateful names, and working against their equality. The idea that God, if he existed, might intervene to make me work against the happiness and freedom of those I love, instead of working for their happiness, their rights, and their ability to safely share love and sex as I and all other straight people can, makes me mildly ill. Only mildly because I don’t actually believe in God, although it is discomforting to have anyone wish for me to become a hateful ugly person nonetheless. Keep your prayers and your “love” to yourself, please.
ETA: In case it wasn’t totally clear, your idea of love is very, very different than mine. If your love looks and sounds so much like hate, is it really love?
RoRo…You are always offended.
Orthodox Christians believe that Gay sex (as well as other sex) is a sin against God. All souls should be ashamed of their sin. A person can have homosexual feelings, they just cannot act on them. It’s a tough road, but one gathering great reward for the suffering.
I did Not compare gays to Hitler. I was referring to Hitler bastardizing Christianity to justify murdering Jews. I knew I had written that wrong, so forgive my screw up. There may be Nazi Gays but Gays are not Nazis. Gays are not Hitler.
Repentance of sin is a requirement to become a Christian. Forgive me, but I cannot change the requirement. There is a big difference between one whom repents and fails, even repeating, and, one whom refuses to repent altogether, but still calls themself a Chrsitian. It’s a line of delineation that describes a Christian.
…but you are not a believer and Dorian says he is. I was not conversing with you. I had no temerity to convince you of anything Christian because your belief is already known to me. I respected leaving you alone with your belief. YOU butted into the conversation. I’m doing the best I can under your assault.
However I have prayed for you and will continue to pray for your conversion. Please, go in peace.
Allen,
I can certainly understand the argument that Christians who profess to follow the rules and beliefs laid out in the Bible should practice what they profess to believe and not simply pick and choose which parts of the Bible they wish to follow. However, I’m wondering how far you expect Christians to go to honor all the rules and beliefs laid out in the Bible.
Should Christians, for example, repent for wearing wool and linen fabrics in one garment (actions expressly prohibited in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11)?
Or for that matter, should Christian men repent for wearing “women’s” garments and Christian women repent for wearing “men’s” garments (both of which are clearly prohibited in Deuteronomy 22:5)?
roro80 wrote:
Don’t be offended, roro80.
Instead, rejoice that you have discovered the freedom of living the life that you have chosen for yourself and not the life that today’s society or some Bronze Age civilization has laid out for you.
I can assure you that I am correct on this matter. I pray to God every night, and She assures me that it is so.