Virginia Tech Protection Needed: As With Columbine Funerals and Memorial Services, Pastor Fred is Coming To Spread His Screed at VT.
Heads up: Calling all sister and brother bikers for funeral patrol… bring ’round those fatheads and flatheads, shovelheads, and ironheads, and make ready to ride the pegs if need be… your services may be called upon very shortly.
Pastor Fred, a/k/a/ Fred Waldron Phelps Sr., who refers to himself and his grown children as “the most hated family in America,â€? claims he and his Topeka, Kansas-based Westboro Baptist ‘church’ –which is made up almost entirely of his own offspring– are heading to Virginia Tech in order to ‘protest’ the funerals of the slain students and professors. He claims he will use bullhorns and that his family will carry large placards saying some version of “God Hates Virginia Tech.â€? He claims his ‘gospel’ for the occasion will be, ‘God is glad that the students and professors at VT were slain; that the massacre was God’s happy retribution for the USA’s love of homosexuals.’
Pastor Fred’s modus operandi is to appear, rather like Rodan, over funerals at disaster sites, funerals of fallen soldiers who served in Iraqi, funerals of persons who have died of AIDS, and essentially any funeral that big media cameras and journalists are known to be covering.
His strategy is to position himself and his family in as close proximity to the funeral corteges and graveside rituals as possible, to position himself and his family within crystal clear hearing of the grieving families and friends….all in order to unleash an acid screed on the innocent mourners.
His behaviors seem to be meant to subvert the focus of the funeral away from those who are grieving their loved ones, and instead to shine a limelight on Pastor Fred who, at graveside, seems most often engaged in behavior that some might think resembles a large and grizzled two-year old tantrumming while hurling the name of God and condemnation in all directions.
When I was at the Columbine Memorial service in 1999, (12 students and 1 teacher killed, two shooters suicides, 24 students gun-shot wounded, some maimed for life) the convocation was held outdoors in a huge mall parking lot. Tens of thousands of people came to grieve. All important politicos, Bishops and Governors were all there. There too, was the seriously enraged looking Pastor Fred. He and his family were holding huge placards that read in huge letters: “God Hates Columbine.� It was deeply shocking to me. Shocking that someone would take this time and this place, to make more of what already had caused so much harm: unstable thought, hateful acting out.
In my work as a post-trauma specialist and in my many decades of prison ministry, I’ve seen hatred so close up I could count the black cavities in Evil’s back teeth. And even though I knew from the Amendment 2 contretemps in 1992-3 in Colorado, a law eventually found unconstitutional, but when passed, denied gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual people equal access and protection under the law… even being up against some vociferous people affiliated with certain religious bracts, I never expected a man who claimed he was a Baptist minister to do such spiritual harm to vulnerable others. But there it was, right in front of me.
Out there in the parking lot with Pastor Fred, one of my staff people, a good woman, and I looked at each other and could see Pastor Fred was exhorting his family to try to get even closer to the lenses of the dozens of satellite TV network cameras present. Somehow silently signaling other women close by, we formed a living wall, hip to hip, blocking the sight lines from the cameras to Pastor Fred, his pack and their placards.
We raised our hands in praise, even though praise prayer wasn’t exactly going on at that moment. It became a blood need: trying to block Pastor Fred and what seemed to be the real reason he and his crew had intruded amongst the grieving: to desecrate the dead and to be filmed while doing it. Necro-exhibitionism.
Pastor Fred has a long long history. Google Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka. Some people have wondered where Pastor Fred gets the money, who by first and last names, actually funds him so that he can take up the very expensive ‘ministry’ of shipping himself and his numerous family members by air, sea and land and hotel, to jump up like Freddy Krueger at sacred moments. Those who question may need to ask even more loudly and persistently. It would be good to know where the back money to front Pastor Fred comes from precisely.
Pastor Fred and gaggle were at Matthew Shepherd’s, funeral too. Matthew was beaten bloody by two men who then tied him to a fence on the windswept Wyoming plains and left him to die. Pastor Fred’s form of comfort was written big on his placards: “God hates Fagsâ€?
Even with Pastor Fred showing up like Zelig, the families, friends, the cemeteries and funeral homes have been naive, not understanding that if a death, murder or funeral is advertised in big media, Pastor Fred and his outfit will swoop down and do their deeds. This is understandable. Why should any grieving soul have to think about some “minister’ damning them to hell, when they are already in a living hell not of their own making.
After recent military funerals across the country were egregiously intruded upon by Pastor Fred, several state legislatures passed what are called ‘funeral sanctity’ laws, which force Pastor Fred, and others who have become’ ill-minded wanna-bes’ like Fred, from coming within a certain yardage of funeral corteges and gravesites. Certain legal minds have stepped up to defend Pastor Fred, et al, charging that such laws impinge on Pastor Fred’s freedom of expression. The lawyer who speaks most about how her client is being deprived of his true rights, is his own daughter, who is said to have a law degree. Pastor Fred is said to have one too.
Not too long ago, whenever Pastor Fred showed up, also mysteriously some silent signal traveled overland amongst the righteous, and sister and brother bikers began showing up at the funerals of vets. The Harley brigades rolled. (There were some Gold Wings and other kinds of bikes too.)
Bikers formed long phalanxes with their bikes and accompanied the funeral corteges along the oil road, and stood at attention at graveside. When Pastor Fred got on his bullhorn, well, 200 Harleys at rev with big guys with moustaches and Viking braids and muscles, and women who look like they might simply snap you with their leathers and send you to the hospital… or heaven… well, Pastor Fred stood there on the hill, his mouth moving, but all you heard was that mellow growl of the Hogs.
For Virginia Tech, all the funerals and memorials are sacred events and the mourners deserve to mourn their dead in peace… sans Fred. And I think it likely that that silent signal has already gone out to some of the last Road Warriors of the Righteous on earth and they are already testing the tension on their chains.
It almost seems ironic somehow that the Harley brigades can drown out a voice, even when that voice uses a bullhorn… for in Dante’s work, one of the circles of Hell is for those who spoke unjustly against innocent others while on earth. Such ones talk and talk, scream, cry and yell in frustration, for no matter how loud they talk, and no matter for how long, no one can understand a word they say.
“Pastor Fred,â€? Copyright © 2007, Clarissa Pinkola Estés, Ph.D., All Rights Reserved, is printed here under Creative Commons License by which author grants permission to copy, distribute and transmit this particular work under the conditions that the use be non-commercial, that the work be used in its entirety and not altered, added to, or subtracted from, and attributed with author’s name and copyright notice. For other uses, contact copyright holder.
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this is one time where pastor fred and his loving followers need to think a bit before going to protest
vt has a really good football team and a bunch of miltary people on campus
i do not believe that these lovers of christ will escape alive
This man absolutely DISGUSTS me. If there’s a hell, he will burn in it forever.
Uncle Joe Mccarthy most unfortunately, they always come out just fine. Keep in mind that they do this at MILITARY funerals, full of big brawny military guys almost certainly in no mood for their crap. The police is left with the hapless task of protecting this crew, though their hands much itch for their batons for reasons quite contrary to “protection”.
Yes the “pastor” has a legal degree, but he was disbarred for…well…for being the lovely little man that he is. Wikipedia it if you’re interested, but I don’t recommend reading anything about him on a full stomach.
I just hope the media doesn’t take the bait. In my dream of the event, no camera would turn to them. No cellphone would be trained on them by a single attendee. No one would shout at them or even look at them, they would be merely not acknowledged save for the humming of the bikes. They feed on attention, believe it or not, they LOVE to see how people hate them, in their twisted brainwashed world, that reaffirms their rightness. So if you’re there, ignore them, ignore the obscene signs, ignore the hateful words, ignore even the heartbreaking sight of very young children smilingly holding up signs that say “God hates America”. Don’t give them what they want.
Thanks Dr. E!
Phelps is scum. Filth and scum. An obscenity that rears up on its two legs and spews hatred across the landscape.
I saw a documentary on him and his activities that left me stunned, showing his happy smile as he began his day, adding pain and suffering to a family in their loss.
He was at Columbine? I didn’t know that.
God, does he just travel the country hoping to gorge himself on the suffering of others? I am sickened by this.
This is just too depressing…too depressing for words….
I have the same sentiments as Uncle Joe. The good pastor and his family could end up at the very least getting beaten to a pulp. While they have so far escaped physical harm from their presence at military funerals, those are on the whole are attended by disciplined military people. Grief stricken college students would not fall under the “disciplined individuals” category.
Pastor Fred and his troop could be in for a very nasty experience if they carry their God hates Virginia Tech message to the funerals.
Yes, Phelps does “travel the country hoping to gorge himself on the suffering of others.”
Having Phelps and his clan on hand at final services for those killed by Cho Seung-Hui should serve to make a powerful statement: This country desperately needs to get serious about proper care and treatment for the seriously, and especially the dangerously, mentally ill.
That means creating more mental institutions where people like Cho can be segregated from society unless and until they’re genuinely well enough to be discharged. It means finding some way to deal effectively with people like Phelps, too.
Dear All: Thevarrior, Lynx, there you are!, and Uncle Joe McC, Marlowe and PK, and you are welcome H in Cinci…
Isn’t that one of the paradoxes that many thoughtful people seem to find so frustrating, whether in war… or at Fred’s appearances… or any number of events in between those two planes? …Anytime one has to stand down whilst under significant provocation? It’s hard to do.
It takes iron will to stand still and adhere to a higher form of law, even though you are filled with a just fire, or even a fire of your own making.
We know that one of the marks of a well-trained military warrior is the ability to act in an ultra self-disciplined way when so called for, even in the face of extreme provocation… well, I think that is one of the hardest duties to pull… for anyone. For any of us.
I remember being afraid of Fred and the vicious showing-all-their-back-molars shouting he and his family members were doing. I would have been happy to see the Marines show up right that second to protect me and all of us. It was daunting to see viciousness without its skin on; just raw.
In those moments, you sometimes get one of those weird displacements in the psyche, where you are shocked and afraid but something in you apprehends, and moves with a sense of mission that is lightning quick to try to shelter others.
Still, I am used to speaking with people who act like Fred when there is a prison guard a hand’s reach away, not to have a person flinging utter acid, loose out in public like that.
I think that your thoughts here are important ones; I think people speaking for others who are down for the count, is an important part of speaking for the world soul.
I think you never know who will read what you have written here. Those who read thoughtfulness only to cement their ill-philosophies of the world, well they may not be changed by anything they read, pro or con, anywhere, ever.
But, others might take heart from what is here, courage, insight, understanding; or they might just be happy to realize once again that there are other birds out there wheeling such a huge sky, those whose feathers match some of theirs, and that will be enough for this day…
dr.e
I think, Dr. E, that your column is, once again, not only important on it’s own, but also importantly timed. I say this because it seems that at times such as this, times when we as humans, as citizens, as members of the world community, deal with an horrific event which not only shocks our collective conscience, but also so deeply wounds our souls, we as a society are most poised for productive action to right the wrongs we see happening around us.
And while I shall leave for others any discussion regarding the numerous issues raised by the chilling tragedy in Virginia, I will say this: shining a light on “Pastor” Fred may be a wise thing in that hopefully that crucial light will spur action in response to the anti-social, and inhumane cruelty of the, actions undertaken by Fred and his family.
This action will hopefully consist of an overwhelming show of legislative force to insure that the view of soulful people everywhere will be heard. One ought not be entitled to stand behind the 1st Amendment when one’s behavior is deliberately cruel, indeed beastly cruel, and meant to cause harm. One ought not be entitled to use the precious protection of our constitution to justify the intentional, and inhumane, infliction of emotional distress. One ought not be entitled to wrap themselves in the American Flag when there is a rational basis for requiring them to curb their hugely damaging dogma.
The 1st Amendment surely comes equipped with the notion that certain carefully considered time and place constraints can indeed be placed on speech. And surely funerals, especially those being held to beautifully memorialize and honor the innocent victims of a deranged assassin’s actions, would be one such example.
But as your valuable piece makes clear, we need not even look at examples as compelling as those we shall see in the coming days. For there is something universally sacred about a funeral, and regardless of the cause of someone’s death, the simple fact is that we as a society have a vested interest in insuring the sanctity of funeral services. And I dare say that there is not a court in the land which would have the temerity to find otherwise, or to suggest that there is not rational basis to curb speech as someone is being lowered into their final resting place.
Consequently, while talk of Fred is unpleasant, and causes us to feel both pain and also huge anger, this talk is meaningful, very meaningful. Indeed, without it, there may be no action taken by the various state legislatures to protect the piety to which everyone is entitled on such a sad day.
As we all know that it too often seems that it’s the noisy wheel which gets the oil, this is one instance where we all ought continue to make noise. For that noise will cause lawmakers to act.
And to finally stop Fred, we need not the action of vigilantes (as satisfying as that might initially seem), but rather the full force of the law.
We’ll see how brave Fred and his family members are once they’ve spent some time behind bars. History suggests that that time will teach them something about hurting people as they have.
And that’s one reason why today’s piece is so valuable. It continues to shine light on a place where it needs to be shined. And we all owe it to those who have already been victimized by Fred, and those who may one day be a target of his hate, to make sure that the law hears in no uncertain terms what seems elemental: A civilized society need not accept these actions. And we should put the full force of the law behind that view.
Thank you for the light, Dr. E. I know that you will continue to shine it in such a brilliant way. I just hope others will follow your example.
Well, this should be interesting. Must remember to buy popcorn for the show. God I pray CNN gets a front row seat.
A part of Phelps’ scam is that he wants to be assaulted so he can make money. Hats off to the military and Hell’s Angels for not playing his game the way he wants it.
You folks could have it worse. You too could live in a city only a little over an hour away from the fruitcake squad.
Stollios “not a court in the land which would have the temerity to…suggest that there is not rational basis to curb speech as someone is being lowered into their final resting place.” As you point out, the operative word is “rational.”
White Agent; There are documentaries on Fred, and also here is an interesting link that has an entire book mss on Pastor Fred: http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/atohate.htm
carpeichus; that seems a possibility; accdg to an article in Mother Jones, he was maced by some persons he harrassed who were frightened by his agression toward them
Jim Satterfield: Do you ever hear that the other Baptist churches in Topeka and surrounds speak out or not about Pastor Fred?
CHO SEUNG-HUI KILLED THE WRONG PEOPLE. HE SHOULD HAVE MASSACRED THE ENTIRE PHELPS CLAN AND HIS CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!
This Westboro Baptist church not only hates the Gay-Community but African-Americans, Canada, Sweden, the Fire Department of NY, victims of 911, Christian Churches, The Pope, Judaism, America, Our American Troops, and the list goes on and on. Many of the groups they despise are specifically named on their hate propaganda, picket signs, and their many websites. They not only hate, but wish death on all that they do hate.
This sick, so called church spreads its hate through picketing in our streets, provoking attacks, with abusive vulgar language. Worst of all, they endanger their own young children, having them man the front lines in their combative demonstrations – attempting to create a confrontation and cause for one more of their frivolous lawsuits.
They are not a “church”. They go after any thing that can get them in the news. This group will protest anything to get its face on TV. It is about an old man lost in the darkness of hate.
The city of Topeka, the state of Kansas and the U.S. at large, its citizens and their Churches, schools and events are all held hostage by this “hate group” – always at the tax payer’s expense.
As I gay man, I’ve seen the Phelps clan disrupting funerals for at least 20 years. No one cared when is was just the FAGS he was after. His hatred is more visible than most, but not really different from the hatred spouted by Robertson, Fallwell, & Dobson, which is picked up by Bush and Cheney in their attacks on gay people. I learned years ago that hatred is a human condition and the only way to oppose it is with non-human aid. Christ said love my enemies, turn the other cheek. Gay people have turned the other cheek on Phelps for 20 years now. The result is that now nearly everyone sees these people for what they are. “Blessed are those who are persecuted for My sake…”
The vast majority, including all the mainline churches in the region find Phelps pretty disgusting. This in spite of the fact that they are willing to pass anything that says it bans gay marriage. Go figure.
I’m afraid the Phelps clan succeed with me. They leave me speechless in horror.
What can one say when looking in the face of pure evil and hate?
On a practical side, if they use bullhorns, can’t they be hauled away for disturbing the peace?
And why aren’t children’s services looking into child abuse, as obviously they are harming the sanity of their own children?
To be held hostage by the likes of these monsters is incomprehensible. It’s surreal!
A part of Phelps’ scam is that he wants to be assaulted so he can make money. Hats off to the military and Hell’s Angels for not playing his game the way he wants it.
Unfortuntely true, and I have seen the warnings sent by the military regarding Phelps and co at funerals. Commanders are instructed to caution troops about getting close to the Phelps congregation since any physical altercation is used to launch lawsuits, which help fund the church. There are always several suits pending in this fashion.
A philosophical question for Phelps and his followers: If you are violently murdered while picketing someone’s funeral, wouldn’t that mean that God has allowed it to be so because you have been evil or have condoned some evil even in the most cursory way? By your own logic, twisted as it may be, the only conclusion a survivor from your church could possibly conclude is that God would be pleased with such an act and they should be pleased as well! It seems that your view is; that whenever bad things happen to people it is because they have displeased God in some way. That he is taking his wrath out on, not only them, but upon their loved ones as well. Hmm. Only the religious get away with this kind of mental illness. It becomes the protected cover for all manner of insane belief and behavior. The quicker we rid ourselves of the notion that ancient manuscripts contain the real truth about the mystery of our existense, the better off we’ll all be. Phelps and his adult clan need to be in jail for child abuse. They are mentally abusing those kids.
i just want to second what rich jones (above) has said. the gay community has endured this hateful tribe for decades and there was barely a peep in the media except for a couple of giggles over their signs saying “fag”. it wasn’t until they recently started showing up at military funerals that everyone got exercised about them. something for good people to ponder before they run off to the polls to pass laws to keep gay folks from having the same rights that they enjoy, isn’t it ?
Those that claim to be men of God are acting upon their own hateful and bigot accord. Those that scream loudest and boost their self rightous attitudes are the ones who are hiding the most filth. Man has used religon way too long to justify their actions and hateful hearts. You will be judged and will be responsible for your every actions. People learn to let people be, mind your business and pray in your homes. Do not shove your beliefs down our throats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3JvXxXnB8I
Mark Angelo Cummings, your words remind me of an old joke told in the backwoods where I grew up: A fiery young man saw a cloud formation that he thought spelled out GPC: Go Preach Christ. But, the old minister who had seen much, told the young zealot, “Son, in your case, I think it means, Go Pick Corn.
Would that it were for Fred. Would that it were.
el polacko and rich jone. yes. and yes. There was more than a peep in the media about Fred and his disruption of funerals of gays, but like many venerable stories, the news cycles rush onto the next gut grabber.
And you are right; there is a political /moral push-pull too often used to seemingly try to douse decency and human rights in many directions. Thankfully there are legions, people like many of us, and you, who have their eyes trained and who speak.
I do know that in some cases, gays and military have formed a bunker against Fred. I was at the Colo capitol building during his last visit a few months back. I saw Marines standing next to gay men, all parties arguing back at Fred & Co. I remain convinced if you can just get people together who dont know each other, but who have an interest in decency, and who can begin to see that decency for one is decency for all… that much better things can come of such.
Dave Phelps, thank you for bringing up that question. I don’t know the answer, but I did hear a person from the New Branch Dividians say recently (He believes Mr. Koresh is/was the Messiah. Mr. Koresh was killed at the Waco Dividian Compound along with I believe 79 other persons, of which 21 were only little children.) that a person who hears God’s call to be ‘out there’ against the culture, will be murdered by God in order that God shows how chosen that person was by God.
This seems like some twist on orthodoxy in Christianity re Christ dying as ‘chosen son.’
There might be a lot of people who wish that Koresh and Pastor Fred were both picking corn together and nothing more.
celtic dragon… that’s noteworthy. I hope someone will look into and write a detailed report about Pastor Fred’s lawsuits and settlements. That would give the public important information. It’s an interesting idea: whether puposefully provoking others to do harm to oneself merits monetary damages…
cam: that’s a good list. Not just the Pope. One odd thing about Pastor Fred when he was standing behind us at the Columbine memorial, was that he made some egregious remarks about the Archbishop who was on the dias. They sounded to me Exactly like remarks I heard from KKK members where I grew up, the KKK members being adamantly and openly anti-Catholic and more so, willing to do real harm to those who were Catholics (Jews, Latinos, Immigrants, Blacks, in my neck of the woods. ) I wonder if Pastor Fred has associations with the Klan. Interesting question for an investigative reporter.
opinion mill, good tithings; thank you for the links; I hope this was useful to those who come to your door
Domajot: I dont understand that either re child protection: I would guess that child protection/ social services in Topeka has receved many many calls about looking into what is going on in that family. My hunch is Pastor Fred intimdates and threatens and ….
Pastor Fred now has many grandchildren, and several of his grown children have had, I believe, 8 and 10 children each. In Denver that day, it was truly appalling to see little smooth cheeked dear children carrying signs with hate written on them. At least two of Fred’s grown sons and one daughter, I believe, have left the clan and do make statements against their father.
While it is necessary and even fun to scorn the behavior of the Westboro Baptists, scorn is not enough to solve the problem. They have a message, and while it’s true they hate many people, they’ve found a special distaste for homosexuals. For more information, check out their website http://www.godhatesfags.com Happy good time jubilations!
I too remember when Phelps and his “family” protested funerals of those who died of AIDS. Nobody seemed to care when it was merely a gay issue; hence their movement was allowed to grow. More people are getting angry about the military funerals, but ONLY because protesting our fallen soldiers is something we ALL can agree is shameful.
The Westboro Baptists will be allowed to continue their religiously shielded hate as long as the American atmosphere allows it. Their First Amendment right is supported, and sometimes even applauded, by religious conservatives. But freedom of speech only remains free until real damage occurs from what is said. For example, shouting FIRE in a crowded auditorium is not something we are free to do unless there really is a fire.
The problem is really about what the Westboro Baptist Church feels compelled to say, driving its members to the point of defiling an otherwise sacred ceremony. And the truth is, homophobia is not necessarily discouraged in America. Nobody wants to touch the gay issue, unless it’s to legislate to keep gay issues further from mainstream society. (Thanks Issue 1).
Hateful religious ideologies like those of Fred Phelps are what fuel much of the “debate� on issues like gay marriage, gay adoption, or even basic recognition of homosexuals as targets for violence and discrimination (special rights my ass). They influence the minds of the people we put in charge to protect and to govern all of us in the United States. They are not merely displayed on poster board during funerals.
Yes, it is deplorable that anyone would seek to protest funerals. But shouldn’t we start examining the beliefs behind such behavior? How can we NOT expect religious radicals to show up when we send such powerful messages to support their cause? I see Fred Phelps and his congregation as a TREMENDOUS opportunity for the American people to actually examine the beliefs which hold an entire minority in check. We just won’t do it. We’d rather hear dozens of motorcycles blaring at a funeral than to meet this issue head on.
Not that it’s easy mind you. I’ve been at it for years and have made little progress. But if we can foster a more accepting attitude for homosexuality, Phelps’s free speech will sound more like shouting fire in a crowded room. And eventually, someone will beat the crap out of him.
Your essay on Fred Phelps is gracious and inspires me to hope that we can learn to love as deeply as he had learned to hate.
Why limit it to a physical altercation that causes them to file a lawsuit.
For the sake of all that is sane in the world, somebody just finish the job…
Dear everyone:
Just one question, does anyone besides myself, ride?
s.w. bremer; thank you, I’ll put your t/y to good use, promise.
Mark, and Mother Mayhem, I think, and it is only my very two cent’s worth, that when I have seen incremental change on very serious issues, it comes from large organized groups that began small and grassroots, and then grew… made up of people, pretty much average citizens, like us, who will not let up no matter how many years it takes, who have some personal and some shared ways ways, or learn them as they go along, to deal with setback and defeat and disheartenment, and to keep keeping the vision, adapting it and themselves as is most effective.
It is utterly beyond me that this clearly mentally disturbed man and his brood is allowed to essentially harass mourners in this way. Aren’t there incitement / stalking / harassment laws in all US states that could act as injunctions against his being able to pursue his disgusting activities? We have many problems in Europe around ‘freedom of expression’ and its limits, but, fortunately, this would not be tolerated in any western European country as it would be illegal.
DavidBruno, that’s an astute speculation. Too often it seems that many folks in the USA are often unknowing about symptomatology of severe mental illness; how it occurs incrementally, especially.
Pastor Fred is a lawyer, as is one of his grown kids.. He hides behind our First Amendment (which protects many forms, but not all forms of speech), claiming the right to his own manner of ‘free expression,’ which he believes trumps charges of harassment, disturbance of peace, and incitement to riot. He keeps people tied up in court; that’s his MO
Europe and the Netherlands have been interesting examples of different ways of looking at ‘speech’ and ‘expression’ that does harm by inciting, harassing, causing a person to live in fear.
I’m only a little conversant with ‘speech’ issues in the UK, and how they are different from USA’s, and how they are different too in countries that suffered certain dominant forces in WWII. I know with influx of immigrants, there must be other new pressures too, as there are here as well.
I would like to hear more from you about how it is where you are.
I hope someone out there catches the good Rev Phelps, and pounds him into submission.
Phelps evil has gone on long enough and must be stopped. I believe, and hope that some of his clan get beaten to a bloddy pulp In VA. As noted earlier, these are college kids. College kids who are hurt, angry, and tense. How many times have you seen college kids tear up towns just because thier team won a sports game? The Phelps clan Is doomed If they show there, and rightfull so. Burn In Hell Phelps!!
I have followed this group for several years. In fact, I was at the funeral of a soldier killed in Afghanistan by an IED (Improvided Explosive Devices) also known as “car bombs” that was held here in my home county just yesteday where the Phelps clan was SUPPOSED to appear. It was my understanding that our local law-enforcement stopped them at the interstate exit and told them they were not allowed in our county. They traveled over 1,500 miles from Topeka (with gas as high as $2.70 a gallon) to make a scene and they were shown the door just as soon as they arrived. The soldier’s funeral went by wonderfully and solemnly as it should have.
Westboro Church consists of about 75-100 members. They are no larger and will get no larger. We can at least take heart in knowing that when every last Phelps is dead, their church will disappear. When you preach a ministry of hate, no one wants to be a part of that. It is a shame that Fred Waldon Phelps Sr was able to brainwash his wife and 13 children to follow him in his apostate ways.
Fred has a law degree, but has been disbarred from practicing. 11 of his 13 children do have law degrees and among one of them is a very loud and obnoxious mouthpiece for her cancer-ridden father, Shirley Phelps-Roper. She even has her own letter column at their website at GodHatesFags.com but don’t bother writing her. She’s a sadistic evil woman and only replies to what she wants to here instead of the TRUTH. The Phelps children flash their law degrees around to scare people from filing lawsuits against them for their actions.
This man’s church doesn’t just target the funerals of fallen soldiers. They target the victims’ families of disasters such as Columbine, the Oklahoma City Bombings, the tornados over Texas and Arkansas a year or so ago, September 11th, and Hurricane Katrina. These people are truly sick. What they said about Katrina victims was so vile and so not of God that I’m not even going to repeat it here. It’s disgusting. Everything that comes out of their mouths is filth. When they go to protest, they won’t even use appropriate language. Their website should tell you that. There’s other cleaner words to describe two people of the same sex who like each other, but this group chooses to use the worst they could find.
Fred cusses in his sermons. He used langauge about the death of Pope John Paul II that was so filthy it would make a U.S. Marine look a fluffy teddy bear.
August 20, 1995 will be a date that remains a significant day in the history of Westboro and one you should become knowledgeable of. It was supposedly the event that took place on that day that sparked their evil hearts to begin their crusade of madness to protest the funerals of our war fallen soldiers, but I seriously doubt that had the event not taken place that it would’ve stopped them. At around 3am on August 20, 1995 Westboro’s church was car-bombed. No one was killed and damage wasn’t exactly major. To this day, they have not found the people responsible, and it wouldn’t necessarily break my heart if they never did. You can bet that the authorities are taking their time on that case.
These people just want attention. They want to be seen. They want to be heard. They lust for fame and noteriety. They are a pre-destinationalist believing church that preaches that everyone in the world except for members of their church are going to Hell and there’s no other way to reverse it. They can be as vile as they want and they go to Heaven, and everyone else can be as good as they want and are still going to Hell.
So when they are on these missions of insanity with their protests, I often find myself asking myself “Why are they here? According to them we’re going to Hell anyways so they’re just preaching to the damned. If we be damned, then we’ll go about our lives and be damned.” They’re not at these protests to save souls. They are there to be seen, a disturbance, an annoying pest that needs to be squashed.
I would like to encourage you all to visit the website of Westboro’s biggest opponent, The Patriot Guard Riders, at http://www.patriotguard.org. This is a bikers organization that attends the funerals of those that have fallen in wars or to disasters and shields the mourners from protest organizations like Westboro. Anytime Fred or his loud-mouth wife or daughter try to get behind their bullhorns with their protests, they are quickly silenced by the humming of many Hogs and other bikes. They were in Tennessee yesterday at the funeral I attended. You don’t have to own a motorbike to join, and your support for what they do is greatly appreciated. I enrolled with them yesterday. They have thousands of supporters from all across the country where Westboro is clearly outnumbered.
Just remember, Westboro is a sick organization that follows the work of Satan. They are not Christians nor do they represent a Christian worship. For the victims at Virginia Tech, take heart. Remember the 23rd Chapter of Psalms. God has prepared the Virginia Tech victims a table in the presence of their enemies. They have eternal peace with God now, and that Topeka, KS church will continue to rant and rave with uncontrollable anger and frustration totally out of reach of the vicitims who sit with the other sheep on the right hand of the Lord Jesus.
Justed wanted to make something clear too so people don’t think wrong of my intentions. It is times like these that brings us all together, and we can all despise the Phelps clan together, but they should have NEVER been allowed to being their ministry 52 years ago. No family for any reason should ever have to suffer the misery brought on by Westboro while laying their loved one’s to rest no matter their race, religion, gender, lifestyle, or anything else. It should never happen. It’s immoral and unGodly.
This is why I feel it’s important to push hard behind federal legislation calling for a full-fledged ban on protests at funerals, vigils, and memorial services at any time for any reason. It’s something that is long overdo. As long as there is a Westboro Church, there is a need for us to take a stand and remember what we’re fighting for.
well thank you ScottinTennessee, you said it all. And thanks for upholding our brother and sister biker brigades that ride steady for decency.
richard L.Wagner and Dusty… I think I understand your ideas; there’s often such an immediate impulse, to return physical pain to such a provocateur who delivers unwarranted pain to innocent others in heartache and by hammering their spirits.
Yet, I also understand that impulse to just sort of ‘squish’ an unjust harasser as one that men and women feel when they have a heightened sense of fairness. And the latter is a very good and needed compass to carry in our present culture. And that’s how I hear the subtext of what you wrote….
One of the toughest things, I think, is to understand why such ill people are sometimes allowed more’ rights’ than decent people.
But also, ‘in the cold comfort’ category, but also the category of ‘life’s meanings,’ sometimes people like Pastor Fred and clan make many persons who were somewhat inactive all the more resolute and more active in defense of the defenseless, a side effect of Pastor Fred’s intrusiveness that I feel certain displeases the Pastor greatly
… but which I personally find one of the most honorable behaviors in men and women… recognizing the need for and moving to protect innocent others in effective ways that show above ground.
I think someone needs to take Pastor Fred out.This is bullshit.He needs to read the whole bible,not just parts of it.GO BIKERS.FUCK YOU PASTOR FRED.
This man & his family of followers are vile, evil, disgusting hate mongers. They were in NH for a fallen soldier’s funeral earlier this week and I pray to God they NEVER set foot in my state again. Regardless of your personal feelings of the war, it is horrible to add to a grieving family’s burden. And, to tell everyone who speaks against them that they’re going to hell is ridiculous. Makes me wish I had a bike & could ride with you all. In NH, one man, stood silently before them with his American flag as his form of protest against them and many others came to stand with him. God Bless America! Ride well people – God is definitely with you bikers!
I shouldn’t put the entire Phelps clan with Fred’s lot. He regularly beat his wife and kids according to the Innocent Report from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Fred used violence against them to make them fear him and obey his beliefs. I often wonder if the church will disban should Fred die. I wonder if Shirley Phelps-Roper and Margie would stop their crusade of hate if they no longer felt trapped at the hands of their evil father. Maybe. Maybe not. I will say this. Three of the Phelps children do not follow their father’s path as one other person mentioned. Nathan left the Phelps Complex at the stroke of midnight on his 18th birthday and never returned. His brother Johnathan and sister Dortha Bird also left their family behind.
So right now Fred just has his wife and 10 of his kids working on his side. They are under a HateWatch and listed as a hate organization by the SPLC.
Dee, it is true, some use pieces of whichever holy writing to undergird their ill-formed ideas. There are so many different writers to each book of world holy writings who teach how to live in love, how to forbear, how to try to do no harm… bars to strive toward, and perhaps as importantly, leave people the time to create and make and join and learn rather than wasting all their time in war.
There are in psychology what we call character and personality disorders that see nothing but evil even when they look at innocent beauty. Such persons are in a 24/7 walking delusion of inflation about their fantasies about how life is and how it ought to be.
Sunny: no doubt there are men and women who you could get to know and be friends with who would be happy to put you on the catbird seat on the back of their bikes… it never hurts to ask if that’s your heart’s desire. The bikers I know are good, brave and stalwart souls.
ScottinTennessee, yes, there is farther up a notation about a website that watches ‘cults’ and there is an interesting letter o the web from one of Fred’s sons who left the group..
I live in the town where the Sago Mine explosion occurred and 13 people were killed, and as if it wasn’t hard enough on our town, this abominable group came with their signs and their message of hate. Everyone’s first reaction was to get even or not let them leave unharmed, but then we were informed that that is exactly what they want. They travel to these things for publicity, and in the hope that they can find a good lawsuit. Don’t give them the satisfaction. They want to cause an uproar. The best thing to do is ignore them, and realize that they will too someday face the judgement of God.
lisa i live 45 minutes away,and when i heard that the hatefull degenerates were coming to protest the funerals and memorial services,my blood boiled.i know people who have either worked there,or still do.but then i read the horrible things they said about those 13 men,and about this great
state,i was very surprised that there was no serious problems.
these people will eventually find out that the freedom of speech comes with a heavy price.eventually,they will picket,or provoke the wrong people
and no lawsuit,no amount of money or publicty will will save them.
I’m surprised this group is allowed to proceed with what they do. The 1st Amendment does protect Freedom of ACCEPTABLE speech, but it does not protect a person’s right to ALL speech. There is a clause in the amendment which states that “Speech which is deemed obscene is not protected.” There is no doubt in my mind that the speech Westboro church members use is obscene and not protected by the 1st Amendment.
People shouldn’t be scared of Shirley and her father and all the law degrees they have. As long as we have that clause in the 1st Amendment and a good ‘ole homer for a judge, these Westboro freaks don’t have a case.
I applaud Mr. Snyder for pressing a lawsuit against Westboro for defamation of character on their son and emotional destress. His son was killed in Iraq and Westboro members were there to protest. They said things that were so vile and dispicable, you wouldn’t want your children to hear it. It was obscene speech. Snyder absolutely has a case against Westboro and that hag-witch Shirley Phelps-Roper.
Maybe the “good reverend” will understand this:
——————————————————————————–
YLT: ‘But, take heed of the false prophets, who come unto you in sheep’s clothing, and inwardly are ravening wolves.
oops, sorry, it copied more than I intended….. the good part is at the end
what a load of scum bags the phelps are. the worst thing is they really believe what they preach. very dangerous people.
First of all, I just want to say that this is quite possibly one of the most evil men I have ever heard of. And you say they go looking for lawsuits? Hard to file a lawsuit if you are dead. I hope the VT kids form an angry mob and do away with every single one of these pathetic excuses for human beings..
the phelps rule
Kristen, you are absolutely correct. That is from the Book of Matthew you quote. “. . . .Many will say, ‘Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not cast our demons in your name? Did we not peform miracles in your name?’ And the Lord will say unto them, ‘Depart from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you.’” It’s a great lesson.
Right now Westboro has a new music video out called “God Hates the World.” I would love to hear Shirley Phelps-Roper just recite and explain to me the meaning of John 3:16 based on what they believe.
“For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son. That whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.”
How can you say God hates the world after reading that? That verse right there couldn’t be more clear, and it should tell people who might be stupid enough to believe what they say that everything that Westboro preaches is a lie.
On a lighter note, has anyone ever noticed the striking resemblance between the “Reverend” Fred Phelps Sr and the character Reverend Kane from Poltergeist? They could pass a twins! The similarities go far beyond the fact that both are servants of The Prince of Darkness.