British Disgrace Becomes Fiasco
UPDATED below: Iran plans book, CD on Britons’ detention
Another great take on the hostage drama, this time by Toby Harnden, blogging for the Telegraph.
It took just two blubbering sailors spilling their guts before the Government realised its nifty PR strategy to hide the ignominy of what happened to the Tehran 15 had backfired badly. Now the original ban on getting paid for newspaper stories has been restored.
Bit late now, eh? The two sailors, about as much use in a combat situation as chocolate teapots, have got their dosh. They have cheerfully detailed their craven wimpiness. And the Iranians have released more video footage for the world to laugh at. What a fiasco.
In case you missed it, let me give you the highlights of what our brave sailors had to say. Leading Seaman Faye Turney opted for The Sun and ITN (“I chose The Sun because it is the Forces’ paper. You are always on our side. I trust you.” – Oh, nothing to do with the reported check for the sum of £100,000 then?)…
Meanwhile, it seems to be dawning on Captain Chris Air of the Royal Marines that he and his men might not have covered themselves in glory. In an unpaid interview with the Manchester Evening News , he said: “Some people probably did co-operate a bit too easily and were sucked in by the promise of better facilities.” Ouch…
OM Batchelor? You’re a chirpy, sensitive chap. Maybe you could work in a pet grooming salon or start a window-cleaning service – if you’re not afraid of heights.
Read the whole thing.
UPDATE
As if Britain hasn’t been humiliated enough:
Iran plans to release a book and CD detailing the arrest and detention of 15 British sailors and marines whom Tehran blames for illegally crossing into Iranian waters, an Iranian military spokesman said.
The book and compact disc are “being prepared and will soon be distributed,” Gen. Ali-Reza Afshar said in a written statement.
This is… there are no words for this. What a fiasco.
55 Responses to “British Disgrace Becomes Fiasco”
Michael,
You’re on a real tear about this British hostage stuff
I have to admit that I found the idea of criticizing the actions of a few Marines in captivity a bit disgraceful. It’s hard to imagine how we’d act in the same situation. But seeing how they’ve acted since their release has convinced me that they’ve done plenty to disgrace their country. I’m more annoyed by what they’ve said and done after their release than what they did under duress in Tehran. Nobody forced them to act like asses once back in the UK.
Elrod: I am quite surprised by your comment, but I agree with it. My approach towards them personally was more careful at first as well, but the way some of them are dealing with it…
$
I read the article, but I’m not really sure how they are acting like asses. Could someone spell it out for little old me?
I’m still very uncomfortable sitting in my blogger chair telling men and women in uniform who volunteered to serve in their country’s armed forces, who very possibly had comrades die in other action since their tours started, who on a daily basis were under risk of attack, who showed bravery in patrolling the dangerous waterways between Iraq and Iran, and who very possibly had to board the ships of people who would happily have killed them, that they didn’t act bravely enough when captured by another nation. If you line up a series of POWs or experts in military conduct and have them criticize the 15 troops, then I will yield to their experience and opinion.
Now Iran is coming out with more video, a book, and a CD. Ahmadinejad has been a master of manipulating the world press since he lead the raid on the US Consulate in Iran back in the 70′s (yes, it most certainly was him).
This is going to reverberate throughout both England and the entire Middle East for some time to come. It is in its own way more significant than 9/11, because this time a Middle East state has humiliated a key NATO country, that is supposedly still a strong military force, and in a way that has completely emasculated their entire armed forces.
Look at the aftershocks. Is the press focused on what they Iranians may or may not have done to the prisoners? Any outrage at their treatment? Any outrage at the seizure?
And at the same time we have people questioning why should anyone be mad at the Iranians, acting as their apologists. Shouldn’t they just be allowed to live their lives in the blissful peace the would if the mean, nasty West would just leave them alone? It was OUR fault, not theirs. Excuse me while I go outside to puke.
My god, this just boggles the mind!
“To be honest I cried and cried like a baby.
“All I could make out in their language were the words ‘Mr Bean’. They were laughing at me . . . making he feel about 3ins tall.
“We were boarded by very aggressive Iranian soldiers. One of them was huge and kept staring threateningly at me.”
Clearly, there wasn’t much in the way of training here, as this fella was intimidated by staring…what would have happened had they actually been tortured?
The fact that the MoD rescinded the Admiralty’s order permitting publication is suggestive of the disaster this is becoming. In a sense, these ratings are the public face of the systemic collapse of the Royal Navy.
This is a particularly interesting quote:
“Some have concluded that Britain has become “Dianafied”, terminally sentimental, a nation that needs a collective “mother hug” (Princess Diana, by the way, launched HMS Cornwall).”
I suspect this is true. In watching the movie “The Queen” one could see the true confusion of Elizabeth at how her country has been transformed in just her lifetime.
Churchill was her first Prime Minister…a living link to the grand old lions of the Victorian era…half-mad some of them, but titans nonetheless.
This is what has become of the Great Britain.
A bit of trivia to further demonstrate this point: Great Britain has not built a new railway line in over a century. Even France has built the TGV, for god’s sake; the Germans have MagLev technology. Yet Britain’s railway stock is decaying…there are continual deadly accidents…but it seems no one has the dynamism to build great public works as the Victorians did.
I don’t see how we could even muster any outrage over the treatment of these prisoners when it’s become very public how badly we treat ours. Rendition. Torture. Indefinite detention.
In re: torture….
I have been reading a lot about torture recently…specifically the torture of IRA members and sympathizers by British security services using the infamous “Five Techniques”.
The effects of these tortures upon the republicans was truly horrific. When they would be returned to the Maze they would be in such states that the guards were often horrified…and nursed them back to health and sanity in special areas.
Yet, despite their lack of any training to resist torture, almost no IRA member broke. They were out of their minds by the end of the torture process, but they did not break.
I wonder what is the difference between the IRA members and these chaps? Is it a belief? Commitment to something beyond themselves?
You all win. I’m at a loss for words that don’t come out of exasperation and anger. Have fun, all.
Further to the above:
Please note: I am not criticizing the captives personally. The fact that as a group they seemed to have reacted similarly suggests that there is something systemic here.
This is why I believe Michael and the others who have focused on a larger picture may be on to something.
The Royal Navy is clearly buggered. From the top down. But maybe something has changed in British society too?
Isn’t it amazing? What an embarrassment. I am terribly sorry but “they stared at me”??
That’s the British Navy for ya?
That the defense ministry ever allowed these people to sell their stories is unbelievable.
To Pacatrue: sure, there is some truth to what you say, but they should not have been allowed to sell their stories. This is a major embarrassment for the British Navy.
I agree and the rest of Europe follows.
I served in the US military for 16 years and had the opportunity to go to SERE school and later to train personnel on the code of conduct and resistance techniques.
I am completely unwilling to criticize the actions of the Marines in captivity. What they’re doing now, however, is another matter. It quickly became obvious to me once the letters and first video were released that none of them had any significant training in interrogation and propaganda resistance techniques. The Iranian videos and letters were so transparently propaganda to me and I could almost see the manipulation and coercion that produced them. In a hostage/detainee situation its very easy to be manipulated, particularly if one hasn’t had any training to recognize it for what it is and use techniques to combat it. A familiar refrain from the brits is that “I had no choice.” The reason they believed they had no choice is because they were never trained to see and make the choices they did have, but were unaware of.
So, this is a failure of leadership, and the failure continues. The Brits should NEVER have been allowed to sell their stories and furthermore they should have been restricted from even discussing certain details in public like US troops are.
The Brits need to get their forces trained for detainee situations ASAP. The US needs to do the same. Sadly, not all US troops receive more advanced training that includes situations other than POW status – they need to.
Yet Britain’s railway stock is decaying…there are continual deadly accidents…but it seems no one has the dynamism to build great public works as the Victorians did.
But they have a healthcare system. Socialism. Political Correctness and a Muslim population that says they are Muslim first and then Americans.
Witness the slow death of England. God Save the Queen.
I am damn sure that something has changed in British society.
Listen, this is not just about these individuals, it is what their behavior, the reaction of the British people and government to the kidnapping, how they dealt with it once the hostages were relieved, etc. – says about Britain as a whole.
Opps. Thats funny. Muslims first then Americans. Teach me to watch baseball and type at the same time.
I meant Muslims first and then Brits.
Entropy, I agree. Something has to be done to prevent this from happening in the future.
And yes, what a major mistake it was for the MoD to allow these people to sell their stories.
It is unbelievable.
[...] Cross posted at The Moderate Voice, where there is a great discussion going on. [...]
Chris -
Christ man, you must be Chomsky’s son. No criticism of any any other country is allowed or valid because of what we have done? Is that your position?
Whether you agree with what we did or not, let’s contrast the situations, shall we?
We captured people whom we had some reasons to believe may have been plotting further attacks against American civilian targets. Whether for any given individual that turned out to be true or not, that was the intent. Furthermore, these were people who, in defiance of the Geneva Convention, dressed and mingled with the civilian population, so as to disguise the fact they were in fact combatants.
The Iranians captured uniformed, armed forces conducting patrols against the smuggling of goods. They were held against the Geneva conventions codes as well, paraded on TV, forced to make false statements under duress, threatened with execution, all which are again Geneva code violations.
But, they are above criticism, and we are supposed to accept their version of events, because all Westerns are lying, oil-stealing, torture-enablers.
Back on a previous post I said I didn’t have a problem with you, we just had a disagreement of viewpoints. I think I spoke too soon.
The selling of stories per se isn’t bad, just the selling of THESE stories.
I wonder how much they knew about the stories before they gave the OK….
darn blockquotes.
Clearly, this is true. I find it inexplicable – incompetent! – of the Royal Navy Staff not to have done so given that the Iranians took British hostages in the same waters only a couple of years ago.
But I think again of the IRA members – without any training in resistance techniques – collectively resisting incredible tortures.
Of course, anyone who has read accounts from Soviet archives realizes that almost everyone can be broken eventually. The Cheka/NKVD/KGB were the finest torturers who ever lived.
Yet what is the difference between the resistance of IRA members-or of POWs throughout history who have often resisted extreme tortures-and this situation?
Perhaps the outrage this case…and now these published stories…is fuelling in the UK derives from the sense that these men and women “are” us?
That their actions are not so much personal failings…or even failings of the once-great Royal Navy…but a failing of British society as a whole.
Marlowe, I think that hit the nail on the head when you wrote: “I wonder what is the difference between the IRA members and these chaps? Is it a belief? Commitment to something beyond themselves?”
Well, talking to a brick wall here seemingly, but that’s exactly what I have been saying all-a-freaking-long.
And not just of Britain, but of Western Europe as a whole.
I rather not have a general population that was able to resist sophisticated propaganda techniques. It implies that they are so closed off to different lines of thought that nothing else can get in. While that helps when your a hostage, it has serious detriments to a generally free and open society. If the only way to go back to Good Ol’ Europe is to go back to the belief that they are bringing ‘enlightenment to the savages’ then no thank you. However, this is all different when you start talking about military soldiers, they should definitely not have rolled over so damn quickly, because they should have been given some better training.
The fiasco wasn’t Britain’s response to the situation, it was their preparation for the situation. This has some obvious parallels with the US administration. It’s not that they aren’t tough enough, it’s that they don’t think about what could go wrong…
“And not just of Britain, but of Western Europe as a whole.”
I’d actually say most of the world as Japan, the US and increasingly China are in this boat as well. I’ll definitely defer to Entropy on their actions in captivity but since they’ve gotten out it’s been disgraceful.
Now while I agree, I think the causes are different than you’ve stated. For instance I think it’s because of a culture wide increase of materialism, selfishness and short term entitlement as well as pathological risk aversion. People have little commitment to something beyond themselves except when it gets them something.
I see similar forces at work cause both people fighting for toys that they “need” to have and willful ignorance about Guantanamo/habeas corpus stripping/fighting Iraq on the cheap etc. Whenever something bad happens (or most of the time might possibly have happened sometime in the next 1-4 years), the government first says things to scare us and then comes back and encourages us to keep shopping. That’s why I think the movie Brazil is by far the most accurate dystopian work I’ve seen.
(Now unlike some people I don’t think the government is sitting back and acting like a puppetmaster….in fact I think it is more of a captive of the societal change than the other way around. It’s just that they are enabling it to continue and increase.)
Heck, we’ve taken Eastern philosophy which is all about letting go of the concept of self and turned it into the biggest self help sellers and Jesus is being used to sell diet plans.
As a society we’ve lost all concepts of humility, doubt and pride. Instead of trying to rouse patriotism the government attacks those that disagree. They use rhetoric from WWII but ask for no sacrifices. It’s to the point where people feel oppressed if they can’t afford an Xbox…and they go into debt to get one — while the wealthier sit around and complain about the poor instead of volunteering to teach them how (and help create the societal structures needed) to generate wealth.
To me the sailors are just an anecdote. Their whole stories revolve around their selfish perspective and then when they get out they turn and sell them.
There are some fundamental differences between the IRA members and the Brits. First of all, the Iranians were not interested in information but in propaganda. Torture and extreme coercive acts do not get you propaganda. Deception, implied threats, trickery do. The Iranians used textbook techniques.
With the IRA the Brits wanted information and confessions. It’s much easier from a motivational standpoint to resist giving up tactical information like names, safe house, etc. that will get your friends and compatriots killed or captured than it is to resist the trickery and deception involved in propaganda production. Had the Iranian interrogators been trying to get tactical and classified information from the Brits, they likely would have resisted much better.
Yeah as Entropy points out there is no evidence that they gave up information. I’m loathe to criticize their actions in captivity when it seems that a lot of people are just concerned that they were “humilated.” On the other hand I’m concerned that the interviews didn’t show them having any attempt to have insight into the situation…Entropy would you say this is mostly a byproduct of their manipulation?
Michael- So you think something has changed in Briton? The Brits are going to “get tough” now?!
And do what? lol
Another example of how the U.S. and Britain ceded the moral highground and now operate on equal terms with Iran:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/abc_news_exclus.html
Chris, you seem to suffer from the delusion that at some point in time America, or some other unnamed country, acted with only the highest of moral values, sacrificed national interests in the name of ‘playing fair’ when required, and earned the respect of the League of Nations and became the Moral Beacon to the World, all while protecting their people and the rest of the world from aggression.
They oppressed no one, had no bigotry, racism or sexism, only went to war for the noblest of causes, committed no atrocities in peace or war, their legal system was just and fair to all citizens, and prosperity reigned.
You also seem to believe that only those who are perfect have any moral superiority, and that any bad acts both negate all positives, and forgive any bad acts by ones opponents.
Here is a real reality for you – the winners write history, and get to say what was or wasn’t moral and just. It may not be fair, but it is the truth.
“History is written by the victors”, Winston Churchill
This whole thing would be funny, if they weren’t so sad…
With only limited information regarding what happened with (and to) the fifteen British Marines and Sailors that were captured some seem to think they know enough to pass judgment on the troops involved.
Michael doesn’t stop there… He seems to think he knows enough to analyze the mindset and motives of ALL things British.
The intellect and courage of the 101st Keyboarders is sometimes surpassed only by their thoughtfulness and the fair-minded respect they show to others.
The victors are not always the most brutal or the first to fight. The victors are the ones who win the last big war.
I’m an avowed liberal, and a sometimes pacifist, but I don’t believe these little skirmishes strengthen us. I don’t believe puffing our chest out makes us stronger.
I think shrewd diplomacy, backed up by credible threats (that, when necessary, result in blindingly spectacular successes), does more to our advantage than ranting around like the sad kid in the sandbox who doesn’t get his way.
I think many of Chris’s questions, including the Chomsky quote from the other day, are necessary to understand when we should be shrewd and when we should be strong. Just because we can blow something up doesn’t mean we should. We should make those events count.
Right now we aren’t thinking a whole lot. We’re fighting and calling each other unpatriotic, but we aren’t thinking. We’re reflecting the lack of intellectual curiosity that stems from above. We’re reflecting the demeaning attitude towards legitmate counter-opinions.
You can turn defeat into victory, and the other way around. That the British completely failed at managing the situation does not mean that understanding the Iranian perspective makes you an unpatriotic appeaser. The end result was good and they still fumbled it. They, too, are acting like kids at the school yard.
We should be embarassed that we’ve collectively handled the situation so poorly, but we should stop taking that as even more reason to puff out our chests and call out people who want to make informed decisions.
Entropy said:
Hmmm…VERY good point.
From that point of view, the Iranian methods were more like the tactics used by the Stalin and the soviets to get appropriate behaviour and guilty confessions in the scripted show trials of senior Bolsheviks in the 30s.
AR,
I’ll keep my reply in this post
I guess terrorism isn’t so bad when we are the ones commissioning it, eh?
If we are going to say that the Iranians can’t have nuclear weapons and that we can, we better have a damned good reason for it.
If we are going to go to war before they attack us, we better be 100% certain they will attack us. And how can we be?
My frustration with this situation is that from all the evidence I’ve seen, we are the aggressors. We’ve meddled in Iran’s affairs. We are in their backyard screwing things up. It’s not the other way around. And let me remind you that the 9/11 hijackers were from Sunni Saudi Arabia.
Why do you feel the need to continually try to claim I have said things I have not? I never said it isn’t bad.
I said that your position that because we do bad things means we can never criticize others is ludicrous, as is the underlying thesis that only morally pure institutions have any legitimacy.
As to our meddling in their affairs, well, duh. We have meddled in almost every countries affairs, and almost every country has tried to meddle in our, and each others as well. All countries try to meddle in all other countries affairs to their advantage. And as far as the Middle East is concerned, go check the past history of England and the Soviet Union, and the recent history of France, Russia and China about THEIR meddling. True, they didn’t invade Iraq, but their level of corruption, puppet regimes, political assassinations, payoffs, is the equal of anyone, including us.
And exactly where did you get the idea that I have ever said anything implying that Iran is connected to 9/11?
Has Iran directly meddled in our government to near the effect and influence that we have directly meddled in the Iranian government?
There is only one answer. Conclusions may differ.
Bugger! I just saw Michael’s update.
There’s a book and a CD coming out?!!! Incredible. Will they have a CD-release party in Tehran?
The Iranians are playing this brilliantly…and the UK is stumble-footed, and utterly incompetent still…authorizing and now renewing the ban on publication.
I wonder how it will be edited. I note, for example, that the AP photos of the group at the airport before leaving Iran were cropped…with the originals (that can be seen on Getty) showing scowling marines at the end…that were cut out leaving the smiling folks with their Iranian hosts in the middle.
I have been mulling about this a lot today. In the UK there have been lots of complaints about yob culture becoming mainstream…societal breakdown etc.
In London, they have taken to placing porta-potties around the National Gallery and Trafalgar Sq. on Fridays/Satudays as the lads stumbling out of pubs were wizzing so often against the marble of the National that the marble itself was turning yellow.
Can you imagine that happening in Washington?
I used to dismiss a lot of these complaints. But now I wonder if collectively, it all points to a general breakdown.
It is all too depressing…worse, it seems like this humiliation will continue.
egrubs -
So your point is what? Of course that is a true statement, so are you also taking Chris’ line that we should now stand back and let them develop nukes as penitence?
We’d live in a better world if there wasn’t the kind of nationalist sentiment that Michael is advocating for in Britain. Then across the world we would be focusing on making our societies better. Instead our governments create nationalist fear-fueled fervors and we end up dying in war after war.
My point is merely what I said above. We should put more thought into our actions. There is nothing shrewd about what we are doing right now.
I am not naieve, and I do not believe in a perfect society. I would prefer to be on the winning side.
Schoolyard bullies grow old and pump gas. There’s nothing shrewd about beating on someone because you have a temporary power advantage.
As far as the nukes go — I do not fear Iranian nuclear weapons. I do not fear Pakistani nuclear weapons. Global nuclear holocaust is as likely to come from us as anyone else. I fear the tightness of a highly populated globe that has tended towards war in the past and will tend towards war in the future.
I don’t think we want Iran to have nuclear weapons. I don’t think it’s a good thing. I don’t think we’ve put ourself in a good position to manage the outcome to our advantage. I don’t think the use of force will make us stronger, in this case.
I could be wrong, but all I really want is a little more shrewd and a little less bluster. If, ultimately, we find ourselves capable and in great need for military action, I’d be all for it. I don’t think we’ve met any qualification of that statement, however.
> If we are going to say that the Iranians
> can’t have nuclear weapons and that we
> can, we better have a damned good
> reason for it.
*sigh* We are good, and responsible. Iran is the opposite.
> If we are going to go to war before they
> attack us, we better be 100% certain they
> will attack us. And how can we be?
This is but a game. Nobody can read someone else’s mind fully.
> My frustration with this situation is that
> from all the evidence I’ve seen, we are
> the aggressors.
Not more visual disturbances!
> We’d live in a better world if there
> wasn’t the kind of nationalist
> sentiment that Michael is advocating
> for in Britain.
Naive, and hypocritical as well given the misuse of nationalism and even the claims that the Palestinians are already sovereign nation. Oh, and what was that use of “sovereign nation” so often in criticism of the Iraq war?
The nations on this planet are not “like roving packs of dogs,” attacking one another out of debased self-interest (as one book I’ve reviewed falsely claims).
http://www.villagebooks-mtshasta.com/earthatomega.html
You’ve fallen for the myth of American exceptionalism.
There may be nary a positive side to the Iranian government, but ours has certainly proven to be more irresponsible.
Oh screw it. Lets just all become Muslims, oven roast all of our Jews as a sweet-meat sacrifice to Allah, scrap everything, swear by the blood of the martyrs loyalty to Iran, stone to death all divorced women, neutron nuke Israel, and, become “Iran west” as soon as possible.
At lease we’ll get healthcare.
Chris,
Perhaps you’ve heard of something called the NPT?
You seem woefully ignorant of history and current events. America is not an innocent angel, but neither is Iran.
There actually are positive sides to the Iranian government, but to suggest that America is more irresponsible is truly and ignorant thing to suggest.
Yeah, when I was 17 I thought it was that simple too.
“Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.” – Winston Churchill
And it’s truly ignorant of you to suggest otherwise without providing any evidence to make your case. It is not so, just because you say it.
AR,
It took idealism to create the United States and the Western culture that you think is infallible. If there were no people like me, then we wouldn’t have things like democracy or human rights.