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It’s been a busy couple of weeks on the Fauxrage Watch, but there’s no rest for either the wicked or the easily amused. Today’s edition comes from the continuing outburst of indignation over a Department of Homeland Security report (download the .pdf) which warned law enforcement groups about potential “right wing extremists” who may be planning mayhem on the home front. At the risk of being labeled (yet again) some sort of far Left sympathizer, I feel compelled to point out the likely intentional misreading of this, the obvious fauxrage and a brief lesson from the school of “what goes around, comes back around again.”

First, two disclaimers regarding both the title and the banner. For the title, the phrase “if the shoe fits” is generally taken to mean that you’re referring to the person who is offended. (“Who are you calling stupid!?” “Hey, if the shoe fits…”) Not in this case. The point here is that if a label offends you, perhaps you should stop to check and see if that label was really meant to apply to you before you fly off the handle. The shoe in question might have been meant for somebody else.

As to the banner, why is this a case of Obama Derangement Syndrome and not DHS Derangement Syndrome? Because the winner of this edition of the Fauxrage Follies is none other than Michelle Malkin, who cleverly titles her personal piece of pestilence, Obama DHS hit job on conservatives is real. Congratulations, Michelle. Enjoy your award. (Please see the full spread at Memeorandum for the rest of the enraged, offended mob.

So what is it in this report that has the usual list of suspects up in arms? You can download the report or browse the sites yourself for the full measure of atrocity and insult these poor paragons of Right wing fortitude have endured, but here are just a few snippets from the DHS poison pen.

a rise in “rightwing extremist activity,” saying the economic recession, the election of America’s first black president and the return of a few disgruntled war veterans could swell the ranks of white-power militias.

“It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single-issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration,”

The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.

They also mention the tendency towards additional unrest during times of economic hardship. In order to argue against this you would have to believe that such incidents don’t rise during recessions and high unemployment. (Obviously, they do.) You would have to think that either white supremecy groups don’t exist or that they couldn’t be exercised by the election of a black president. It defies belief.

What excuse is provided for this discontinuity? That the DHS didn’t provide specific instances or of known threats currently in progress. Really? That’s your reason? So if they do know of credible plans in progress, they should send them out where the media might get hold of them? And even if not, might they not begin monitoring such groups more closely at a time like this? It boggles the mind.

The real kicker is the horrible “slight” done to veterans. (And yes, I am one, thanks. And you’re welcome.) Here’s our good friend Ed Morrissey at Hot Air on this hot button issue:

Gee, it could lead? What evidence does DHS have of this? Oh, yeah, Timothy McVeigh was a veteran … and that’s it. I’m not joking:

That could be a somewhat compelling element if McVeigh actually was the only one. Unfortunately, only a few hours after he wrote these remarks, I was sitting in on Ed’s daily show when Audrey Hudson of the Washington Times unexpectedly stopped by. (Audrey penned her own column on these atrocities today.) It was Ms. Hudson who helpfully pointed out that her background research indicated roughly two hundred cases of veterans who engaged in such violent, criminal activity.

She’s absolutely correct to point out that 200 is a minuscule number compared to the millions of veterans we have. But the issue remains. This isn’t a slam against veterans, thank you. It’s a sad fact that some people who return from combat suffer from PTSD or other lingering effects, may suffer economic hardship, drug problems, and generally have extensive weapons training and experience in combat. This makes them extremely tempting recruitment targets for some of the most violent fringe groups. Why on Earth would the DHS not be monitoring these hate groups to see if they seem to be targeting any veterans?

We could go on, but the bottom line to this is quite simple. You’re all offended because the report used the phrase “right wing” in it. Well guess what? There are only two wings handy for such references unless you’ve got a third hand the rest of us didn’t get in on. If liberal groups that support gay rights, civil rights for blacks etc. are referred to as “Left wing” groups, what would you call groups that target and kill gays and blacks?

Unfortunately they pick up the term Right wing. And that’s extreme Right wing. Do any of you think of yourselves as extremists? No? Then they’re not talking about you. Now stop and think back on how many times you’ve made reference to fringe Left wing groups like ALF and ELF and the rest of the whack jobs. Did you feel bad about saying Left wing then? Don’t flinch. I’ve seen pretty much all of you use the phrase and hear it on a daily basis. Welcome to the party. Now some of these groups are in the spotlight and you get to enjoy the same broad brush your friends on the Left are constantly painted with.

And while you’re all busy dismissing the “one guy” in Pennsylvania (which nearly every Right winger on that Memeorandum list did) keep the following in mind: Yes, he was “one guy” who was espousing the extreme language of the furthest Right wing. So you think he’s the only “one guy” out there? Do you want the authorities to assume he’s the only “one guy” out there? Or do you think maybe they should be on the lookout in case there’s “one more guy” or one more after that?

The only way this isn’t Fauxrage is if you you think these extremist descriptions apply to you. If you don’t, then you’re dancing with straw men to score cheap political points. If you do, then I hope the DHS catches up with you before you kill someone.

(Fauxrage banner courtesy of T.G. Studios)

JAZZ SHAW, Assistant Editor
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Polimom
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

Dang, Jazz — I’m really very glad you posted this. I was about to write my first TMV post in many months. LOL!!!

And boy oh boy, is the right blogosphere erupting. Malkin, in particular, is in fine fettle. However, I’d like to call attention to two conservative sites that are pushing back against the frothing tide today: LGF and Strata-Sphere.

Good on ’em. Like Rick Moran, though, they’re fighting a tough battle.

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Frankly let me put it this way. The left loves blacks and gays. The RIGHT KILLS THEM. The left wing are good citizens. The RIGHT WING is evil war veterans with PTSD who come home and KILL PEOPLE> This is one of those posts referring to one of the government reports who is labeling people. Why is it that right wingers kill people and left wingers..um sing kumbayeah? I believe even our government has fallen into the labelling business which then becomes blanket inclusive. Thats my problem with this report and thats my problem with the American Government issuing a… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

Do any of you think of yourselves as extremists? No? Then they’re not talking about you.

Where have I heard that reassurance before? Oh, yeah, from Bush apologists who said that no one who’s not a terrorist should worry about getting wiretapped.

It really is quite amazing how all of the arguments simply turn on their heads when the party in the majority switches. We ought to just keep fill in the blank template blogposts handy for next time we have a transition in power.

$199537
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$199537
7 years 5 months ago

Where have I heard that reassurance before? Oh, yeah, from Bush apologists who said that no one who’s not a terrorist should worry about getting wiretapped.

Or anyone who’s not a terrorist shouldn’t worry about the Federal government getting his library records.

I am guessing the concern will be these kinds of reports will be used as a type of profiling, something that the right has generally been OK with and the left has abhorred.

T-Steel
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

The term “Right Wing Extremism” is not new. It’s been used for years. For that term to now mean (according to the Right Punditsphere) “conservatives at large” in today’s toxic political pool is insanely loopy at best and downright dangerous at worst. Michelle Malkin and Company should be ashamed of themselves (they won’t be).

I’m just shocked at how this as blown up. Should I be shocked? Or depressed?

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Your point T_Steel is the point I was making. In this highly charged political atmosphere the government has the stupidity to use labels. Labeling the right wing as nuts who are most likely going to start killing people. Mr. Shaw is trying to put a spin on it. Trying in vain to defend the report when sometimes you just dont defend the indefensible. Don’t worry Righties. If you are not a murdering savage the report does not target you. Yet in the subtle grand scheme of things to NON political junkies it takes one more chip out of the foundation… Read more »
Jazz
Guest
7 years 5 months ago
Mr. Braindead manages to miss the entire point. Neither I nor the report is saying Left Good – Right Bad. They are identifying a group of known people who engage in extreme, frequently illegal and violent behavior. At T-Steel points out, these groups have been, for better or worse, labeled as extreme “right wing” groups. If you are a conservative, a Republican, a voter of whatever stripe getting involved in politics, voting, endorsing candidates, discussing issues, then you are not the tiny handful of people who are stockpiling guns, running sites like Stormfront, building compounds in the mountains and shooting… Read more »
T-Steel
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

@CStanley:

Your so right. Downright depressing that your right.

T-Steel
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

Sorry Braindead. I just missed your earlier point. Too much computer time as wore me down.

GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

OMG!!!!

It’s practically libelous to say Jazz is simply flipping his template now that Democrats are in power.

ROTFLMAO!!

Jazz
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

And as for George’s comment, if you wish to feel I”m “flipping my template” you are free to do so. When the Republicans were running everything and the government did things I didn’t care for, I published articles criticizing the Republicans. If the government goes astray as I see it now, who shall I take to task? The party that lost the White House and doesn’t have enough votes to pass gas?

GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

Jazz–

In the interest of clarity, when I said it was practically libelous for anyone to think you’d gone into the tank for the Democrats, I was saying it was wrong of them to think that.

And not just a little wrong–so wrong it’s funny.

Jazz
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

@GeorgeSorwell

Ah, sorry George. My bad. I must be very tired after this day indeed. I don’t mind when you criticize me.. I just want to make sure it’s for the right reasons. :-)

mark78
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mark78
7 years 5 months ago

Perhaps these hacks at DHS could name a specific plot instead of being Stalin level partisans in their use of LAW ENFORCEMENT to go after the opp party. Real liberals don’t smear half the country as terrorists for disagreeing with high taxes and excessive government intrusion.

If this country gets hit by REAL terrorists because of this BS heads need to roll.

This report is why LEFT WING EXTREMISM is a threat to this country.

Polimom
Guest
7 years 5 months ago

Methinks mark78 didn’t read your whole post, Jazz. LOL!

DdW
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DdW
7 years 5 months ago
I do not believe the DHS reports refers to law-abiding Americans, or Republicans or Democrats, or Conservatives, or Independents, or liberals, right wingers, or left wingers, or right wing conservatives, or left wing lliberals, or even right wing or left wing radicals or crazies. It refers to right wing extremists, just as reports have referred to left wing extremists. But since we are concerned about labeling people or groups, perhaps we should also address recent labels referrring to American Democrats/Liberals as socialists, Marxists, communists. P.S. I just happened to see a link “Liberal Fascism Run Amok” beolow. yes add that… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

But since we are concerned about labeling people or groups, perhaps we should also address recent labels referrring to American Democrats/Liberals as socialists, Marxists, communists.

Are we allowed to mention that one US Congressman calls himself a Democratic Socialist? I realize you’re concerned about people using those terms loosely and prejoratively, DE, but those are actual political philosophies with which some Democrats/liberals in the US agree (at least with regard to socialism- Marxism and communism, not so much.)

DdW
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DdW
7 years 5 months ago

CS: Sure you may address Representative Sanders as a Socialist (although he is a self-described democratic socialist, but appears as an independent on the ballot.

But I don’t think you should call other U.S. Senators and Congressmen/women socialists or marxists–as many are doing–for the purpose of denigrating them.

But, feel free, it’s a free country

HemmD
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HemmD
7 years 5 months ago

CS

Tell me the Republicans that are against the socialism of Medicare or the Tennessee Valley Authority?

I know, these are not real socialist things. They are just an American effort to solve a problem that Republicans can get behind.

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

Tell me the Republicans that are against the socialism of Medicare or the Tennessee Valley Authority?
Is that a serious question? Reagan criticized the TVA if I’m not mistaken, and a lot of fiscal conservatives feel that Bush’s expansion of Medicare was a disaster (I pretty much agree.)

But if you’re asking if these things could rightly be called examples of socialism, no, I wouldn’t say that, and I don’t know anyone of prominence who is doing so. I guess I’m really not understanding your point.

HemmD
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HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
Which part CS? Everybody pays in to take care of a smaller number of people. As to Reagan’s criticism, is that when they voted to get rid of it? Did I miss those votes? So they criticized these entities but voted for them or left them intact. Again, you prefer to change common definitions coming from your side of the aisle when someone brings up a problem with your logic. George’s link showing how many red states take in more than they give to the federal government is another good example. Your crowd has been calling the redistribution of wealth… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
I wasn’t aware that I am required to take responsibility for everything uttered by anyone to the right of center, Hemm. Do you wish to take resonsibility for everything said by the left? Have I called redistribution of wealth socialism? If not, why in the world should I have to defend my views based on something I never said? Now, if you ask me whether or not I think that the current administration favors wealth redistribution through the tax code, I would say yes (by Obama’s own admission) and if you ask me if I agree with that policy I’d… Read more »
HemmD
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HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
OK CS Would you mind producing the list of socialists in Congress? You may wish to dispute that you said that, so please just provide the list of Democrats that ” are actual political philosophies with which some Democrats/liberals in the US agree ” They’re not socialists, they just agree with socialism. CS, you split hairs to maintain a debate. Additionally, “If left wing extremism concerns were expressed over anti-war rallies, I think people on the left would be right to have their antennas up” I take it you were too young to remember the undercover work carried on to… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
@ Hemm: I don’t think I’m the one splitting hairs here. I pointed out one US Congressman who doesn’t eschew the label, and I was asking Dorian whether or not that made a difference in his opinion, since he’s repeatedly stated opposition to people on the right calling liberals in the US “Socialists”. He answered, as I thought he probably would, that yes, that does make a difference and I agree that there’s a distinction between using a label accurately vs. not accurately, and with the permission of the person being labelled rather than putting something on them which they… Read more »
HemmD
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HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
Cs You are the one who used the plural when using the socialist tag, not me. If one is not “some”, please explain. Basic pronoun agreement is not splitting hairs. As to my questioning your debating technique, What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. In the previous thread about Obama’s popularity, you deflected my point by questioning the reliability of polls instead of addressing my point. Here, you wish to deflect my point that causal labeling on your part (socialism) is a matter of not the common definition used by your side, but just the academic one.… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
@ Hemm: A Congressperson is elected, presumably by people who support what he/she believes in. The term ‘Democrats’ includes both elected officials and the voters who put them in office- thus one representative is (by definition) the representative of a group of people (thus, plural.) And FWIW, Dorian reposted that exchange a few comments above this one, so you can clearly see that I started out referring to “ONE” Congressman, and then in the second part of my comment I referred to the fact that there are Democrats/liberals in the US who support socialistic policies. Does that not comport with… Read more »
CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
I don’t think that my criticism generally applies to Jazz at all- but everyone has their moments. 😉 Seriously though, I don’t at all think that he is a spin meister- far from it. I was just pointing out that that one particular line of reasoning is the exact mirror of how people on the right perceived the criticisms of the NSA wiretapping. In both cases, there are some people that have legit concerns and some who are just paranoid- but it’s not a very good argument to say “no worries if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing… Read more »
casualobserver
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casualobserver
7 years 5 months ago

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents…………. rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority………based on this sentiment being defined by DHS as one form of rightwing extremism, then I will gladly identify myself, as well as my friends, Thomas, Benjamin and Patrick as guilty parties.

HemmD
Guest
HemmD
7 years 5 months ago

If any of you quick to defend the label of right wing extremist, I suggest you have been pallin’ around with the likes of Timothy McVeigh, the klu klux klan, and Jim David Adkisson. Adkisson is the guy who shot six in church because he wanted to kill liberals.

Still feel like affiliating yourself with Right wing extremists? If your not into murder, I believe your not going to be watched. (except maybe you casual :)

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
If any of you quick to defend the label of right wing extremist, No, I think it’s a matter of how broadly the label is appllied. If left wing extremism concerns were expressed over anti-war rallies, I think people on the left would be right to have their antennas up (not to become paranoid, but just to pay attention to the development and any future ones)- and to some extent that’s my reaction to this report. It doesn’t mean much at all in and of itself, unless it becomes a trend to define right wing activism as a potential threat… Read more »
GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

CStanley–

You might be surprised how many of the so-called red states get more federal money than they pay.

Who are the real socialists?

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

You might be surprised how many of the so-called red states get more federal money than they pay.
No, not surprised, I’ve seen that many times.

That’s not socialism either, though it is hypocritical for some of the politicians who claim to believe in small federal govt to feed at the trough (and for some of the voters who encourage that.)

Why is everyone lobbing these questions my way? Are you guys under the impression that I don’t know the definition of socialism? Have I applied it incorrectly somewhere?

StockBoySF
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StockBoySF
7 years 5 months ago
GeorgeSorwell, “You might be surprised how many of the so-called red states get more federal money than they pay.” That’s true, thanks for the link. I agree with you. And (I hope every Republican out there is listening because this is aimed at you….) I think the easiest way to remember it (based on the link) is that with the exception of Texas, EVERY red state receives more in federal taxes than they pay in. (I define “red state” as a state that voted for McCain in 2008.) Too bad the blue states can’t take the red states’ advice and… Read more »
Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Mr. Braindead manages to miss the entire point. Neither I nor the report is saying Left Good – Right Bad. They are identifying a group of known people who engage in extreme, frequently illegal and violent behavior. Actually I think you are missing the point of what your trying to defend. Why are militia’s who stock up compounds in the moutains considered right wing? They believe in what that makes them right wing extremist? So if you come after them and they blow you up then you are a right wing extremist? Once again I dont miss the point of… Read more »
casualobserver
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casualobserver
7 years 5 months ago

You might be surprised how many of the so-called red states get more federal money than they pay.
No, not surprised, I’ve seen that many times.

George likes to trot out this canard often.

Hurricane relief, large tracts of federal land and crop drought aid spread over small populations account for those states at the top. Yes, that certainly was elective pork accumulation on the part of those citizens.

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
U//LES) Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts. Nevertheless, the consequences of a prolonged economic downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit—could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past. — (U//LES) Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first African American president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and… Read more »
Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago

Incidently why do these red states get more money then the blue states?

Simple…….they feed the nation.

GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

Casualobserver–

Canard?

You left bridges to nowhere off your list.

To say the least.

CStanley–

You said this:

I realize you’re concerned about people using those terms loosely and prejoratively, DE, but those are actual political philosophies with which some Democrats/liberals in the US agree (at least with regard to socialism– Marxism and communism, not so much.)

I added some emphasis to show why I asked you about socialism.

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

George wrote: You said this:
I realize you’re concerned about people using those terms loosely and prejoratively, DE, but those are actual political philosophies with which some Democrats/liberals in the US agree (at least with regard to socialism- Marxism and communism, not so much.)

As Dorian understood, I was referring to a specific Congressman who self identifies as a Democratic socialist, and the movement that he represents.

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Historically, domestic rightwing extremists have feared, predicted, and anticipated a cataclysmic economic collapse in the United States. Prominent antigovernment conspiracy theorists have incorporated aspects of an impending economic collapse to intensify fear and paranoia among like-minded individuals and to attract recruits during times of economic uncertainty. Conspiracy theories involving declarations of martial law, impending civil strife or racial conflict, suspension of the U.S. Constitution, and the creation of citizen detention camps often incorporate aspects of a failed economy. More bogus hogwash by this report. The exact same thing they are claiming the rightwing extremists are saying is what I heard… Read more »
GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

Braindead–

Then shouldn’t they be getting enough money through the market? Why would they need extra federal money?

JSpencer
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JSpencer
7 years 5 months ago
Great post Jazz. Cutting to the chase in this cluttered and insecure political environment is no small feat. The sort of rightwing extremists the DHS is concerned about are real and dangerous people, not your average opinionated republican, or even your average libertarian idealist. There is hardly any reason for outrage, but the usual irresponsible fools will be making plenty of noise and egging on the other usual fools who will be all too willing to rush in. As for the tea partiers, I hope they have fun schmoozing and venting with fellow enthusiasts tomorrow, get most of it out… Read more »
Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
George. States like Wyoming produce a large volume of Wheat. The products must get to market. The US keeps subsidies on these products to keep the prices down so YOU dont pay so much. There is a huge infrastructure needed to get this to market. Thus you have a state like Wyoming with 450,000 people who produce humongous amounts of food, via wheat, cattle, pigs etc. that needs to get to market. Wyoming Cant feed you without this infrastructure. If those people in New York want to eat, they need to give Wyoming extra money to keep the food flowing… Read more »
Don Quijote
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Don Quijote
7 years 5 months ago

States like Wyoming produce a large volume of Wheat. The products must get to market. The US keeps subsidies on these products to keep the prices down so YOU dont pay so much.

Most of the agricultural subsidies exist to put a floor under prices, if there wasn’t one most farmers would go out of business in no time.

GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

Braindead–

You’re saying all that extra federal money is covering agricultural production?

You’re saying Wyoming is giving up a huge payday just to be nice to those people in New York?

I’d sure like to see where you’re getting your figures from.

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago

Rightwing extremist views bemoan the decline of U.S. stature and
have recently focused on themes such as the loss of U.S. manufacturing capability
to China and India, Russia’s control of energy resources and use of these to
pressure other countries, and China’s investment in U.S. real estate and
corporations as a part of subversion strategy.

More partisan hackery by whomever wrote this report. For the past 8 years under Bush this was the repeated meme of those who hated Bush and blamed all the worlds ills on him. Now suddenly this is an exclusive right wing feature???

Braindead
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Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Nope not saying that at all George. The question becomes why does all those red states get more tax dollars per capita then does a blue state. The reason is simple they have a whole lot more infrastructure then say New Jersey per capita. Wyoming is the 9th largest state in the Union but has the least population. Per capita its very expensive for that state to keep up its infrastructure to get this food to market. Im sure it stuns you to realize that those evil red states are necessary if YOU want to eat. But there you have… Read more »
kathyedits
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kathyedits
7 years 5 months ago

But if you’re asking if these things could rightly be called examples of socialism, no, I wouldn’t say that, and I don’t know anyone of prominence who is doing so.

That’s the point.

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

But if you’re asking if these things could rightly be called examples of socialism, no, I wouldn’t say that, and I don’t know anyone of prominence who is doing so.

That’s the point.

What? That TVA and Medicare should be called socialism? Maybe TVA in it’s initial form, but not now as far as I know. And how is Medicare an example of government control of means of production?

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
Which part CS?Which part of what? Sorry, maybe it’s the late hour and blog fatigue, but I’m not following you. As to Reagan’s criticism, is that when they voted to get rid of it? Did I miss those votes? So they criticized these entities but voted for them or left them intact. Still not getting your point, sorry. I think that the TVA budget was scaled back, and the criticism of it through the years has led to parts of it becoming self funding instead of federally subsidized. I don’t know much detail, but since I’m not sure what point… Read more »
GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

CStanley–

Dorian understood you to be using the term socialism loosely and perjoratively, right?

So tell me more about this congressman. What movement does he represent? Who else is in it?

And if I can point you to single Republican congressman (or congresswoman) who expresses unusual beliefs on a very popular Fox News program, is it fair to refer to those actual political philosophies with which some Republicans/conservatives in the US agree–as if they were mainstream? Or would you feel I was being pejorative?

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
CStanley– Dorian understood you to be using the term socialism loosely and perjoratively, right? You’d have to ask Dorian that question. So tell me more about this congressman. What movement does he represent? Who else is in it? Bernie Sanders, Democratic socialist movement. He’s registered independent but there is a Democratic Socialist Party of America (you’ll have to research it yourself to find out ‘who else is in it’ as I don’t have that information handy. And if I can point you to single Republican congressman (or congresswoman) who expresses unusual beliefs on a very popular Fox News program, is… Read more »
GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

Braindead–

Don’t put your words into my mouth.

I didn’t call anyone in Wyoming or any other red state “evil”. That was yours.

And I’d still like to see your figures.

Because I’m pretty sure blue states also contribute to our agriculture. Like the dairy farmers of rural upstate New York. And they can’t take the subway to get their milk to market, since they’re a long way from Manhattan.

GeorgeSorwell
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GeorgeSorwell
7 years 5 months ago

And StockBoySF made a good point about state taxes.

Don’t those red states have low state taxes?

Maybe if they’d charge enough to pay for their own infrastructure, they wouldn’t need a federal subsidy?

CStanley
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CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
I’ve already said that I think it’s hypocritical of GOP politicians to try to bring home pork, but I think you guys are stretching the point without enough fact to back all of your conclusions. Sparse population does make a difference (the same size land area has fewer taxpayers, but you still need a highway to get across it) and I imagine that the ag stuff pointed out by someone (CO?) is probably part of it too. And although I’m not a fan of ag subsidies, I think we do have to acknowledge that everyone (blue and red states) benefits… Read more »
TheMadKing
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TheMadKing
7 years 5 months ago
And I quote: “Now stop and think back on how many times you’ve made reference to fringe Left wing groups like ALF and ELF and the rest of the whack jobs. Did you feel bad about saying Left wing then?” A very good point, guy. The May 2008 report on Ecoterrorists was very specific, naming ALF, ELF, all their well-documented crimes and their very real threat to national security. This current report doesn’t even name Aryan Nation and Stormfront, two groups who DO require watching. But is does label as suspicious groups AND individuals who adhere to certain political POVs… Read more »
SteveK
Guest
SteveK
7 years 5 months ago

Wyoming – Receives $1.11 for every $1.00 it pays to the Federal Government

Agriculture in Wyoming
http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/publish/article_733.shtml

Top 5 agriculture exports, estimates, FY 2001
Overall – $53 million
Rank among states – 44th

——

California

Receives $0.78 for every $1.00 it pays to the Federal Government

Agriculture in California
http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/publish/article_684.shtml

Top 5 agriculture exports, estimates, FY 2001
Overall – $8,698.5 million
Rank among states – 1st

At the golf course it’s called ‘sandbagging’…

StockBoySF
Guest
StockBoySF
7 years 5 months ago
Braindead, concerning your argument that red states feed blue states and that the people in Wyoming “produce humongous amounts of food, via wheat, cattle, pigs”. From Wikipedia: “…Wyoming’s gross state product was $27.4 billion…. The mineral extraction industry and the travel and tourism sector are the main drivers behind Wyoming’s economy. The Federal government owns about 50% of its landmass, while 6% is controlled by the state. Total taxable values of mining production in Wyoming for 2001 was over $6.7 billion. The tourism industry accounts for over $2 billion in revenue for the state. In 2002, more than six million… Read more »
Don Quijote
Guest
Don Quijote
7 years 5 months ago
Wyoming is the 9th largest state in the Union but has the least population. Per capita its very expensive for that state to keep up its infrastructure to get this food to market. Im sure it stuns you to realize that those evil red states are necessary if YOU want to eat. But there you have it I don’t want to hurt your feelings, Braindead, but you really are brain dead. Now France, a country the size of Texas and a population of 60 million somehow manages to produce more than enough food to feed itself and to be one… Read more »
Braindead
Guest
Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
I can see all the braindead people have been actively googling overnight to support their socialism is alive in America. Isnt that really what your trying to advocate that because those evil red states get more dollars per capita that socialism is a good thing? Wyoming produces per capita way more then california does. California has 55 million residents. Wyoming has 450 thousand. Now why dont we just throw Wyoming out of the United States. Its obvious that they have nothing to offer. Why do you think the US government put their nuclear missiles in Wyoming? Why do you think… Read more »
StockBoySF
Guest
StockBoySF
7 years 5 months ago
Braindead…. you’re the one who stated that the people in Wyoming “produce humongous amounts of food, via wheat, cattle, pigs” and that the people in the red states feed the people in the blue states. I don’t see how my Wikipedia figures which clearly show that Wyoming does not produce nearly as much in food as some blue states is spinning the facts. Or the fact that some blue states are the top producers in certain food products…. Instead you start talking about per capita this and that… While I will admit that the highway system may account for some… Read more »
Braindead
Guest
Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
I don’t want to hurt your feelings, Braindead, but you really are brain dead. Trust me Don……coming from someone like yourself who quotes the communist manifesto is not going to hurt my feelings. AS to france. I doubt very much the dont import and export products. You guys are obsessed with wealth redistribution. You are obsessed with the gleeful fact that those poor red states are welfare cases. All the more reason for them to pull out of the union. They are not needed in the liberal version of socialist America. Most of the agricultural subsidies exist to put a… Read more »
Don Quijote
Guest
Don Quijote
7 years 5 months ago
AS to france. I doubt very much the dont import and export products. They do, but they export far more than they import… Most of the agricultural subsidies exist to put a floor under prices, if there wasn’t one most farmers would go out of business in no time. EXACTLY. DUH. Bur you told me that I was going to pay $15 for a burger, implying that the subsidies were there to support the customer and not the producer. You guys are obsessed with wealth redistribution. You are obsessed with the gleeful fact that those poor red states are welfare… Read more »
JSpencer
Guest
JSpencer
7 years 5 months ago

My dream is to see the United States become more united, and less a family of squabbling brats. There are clearly interests in this country who gain from promoting the latter view regardless of the fact it tears this country apart. As far as I’m concerned, those interests are irrational and sociopathic in nature.

Constructive (even passionate) criticism = healthy for the country
Demonizing, negatavism, & distortion = not healthy for the country

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

DQ, your conclusions aren’t at all supported by your evidence. France is pretty self sufficient with regard to it’s food supply, but that’s because of geographical conditions amenable to agriculture. Do you not get that certain regions of the US can support certain crops and others can’t? You think that NJ and Maryland are going to become large scale grain and rice producers?

Why would you even want to advocate for that, rather than have each region do what it does best for the good of the whole nation?

Don Quijote
Guest
Don Quijote
7 years 5 months ago
DQ, your conclusions aren’t at all supported by your evidence. France is pretty self sufficient with regard to it’s food supply, but that’s because of geographical conditions amenable to agriculture. Do you not get that certain regions of the US can support certain crops and others can’t? You think that NJ and Maryland are going to become large scale grain and rice producers? CS, Braindead told us that if it wasn’t for the Red States, people in the Blue States would go hungry. Now the Northeast may not be able to grow rice and other semi-tropical staples, but they can… Read more »
DdW
Guest
DdW
7 years 5 months ago
Good Morning. Wow, I see it has been a busy night. Since I see my name mentioned a couple of times, here is what CS posted/asked: “But since we are concerned about labeling people or groups, perhaps we should also address recent labels referrring to American Democrats/Liberals as socialists, Marxists, communists.” [This was from my previous post] Are we allowed to mention that one US Congressman calls himself a Democratic Socialist? I realize you’re concerned about people using those terms loosely and prejoratively, DE, but those are actual political philosophies with which some Democrats/liberals in the US agree (at least… Read more »
CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
Red States start calling us all sorts of ugly names, and blocking the legislative process, this despite the fact that they are the largest welfare queens of them all. But again, DQ, you’re really not providing evidence to support that kind of accusation (and name calling? Is it fair game to call Red Staters names and advocate secession as you did in a comment above, because of your perception that you’re being called names?) When you look at the discrepencies between the various states in recieving aid, if I remember correctly from that chart the ones who get more than… Read more »
Don Quijote
Guest
Don Quijote
7 years 5 months ago
But again, DQ, you’re really not providing evidence to support that kind of accusation (and name calling? Is it fair game to call Red Staters names and advocate secession as you did in a comment above, because of your perception that you’re being called names?) I didn’t fall off the back of the Turnip Truck yesterday, we can go back and find a long list of threats and insults hurled at liberals, and parts of the country that the Republicans didn’t care for such as New York and San Fransisco over the last twenty years by Republican officials and their… Read more »
CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

Yup, you can find those kinds of comments as well as the derisive ones about ‘flyover country’, people who cling to their Bibles and guns, etc. Tit for tat, I guess.

SteveK
Guest
SteveK
7 years 5 months ago

“I can see all the braindead (sic) people have been actively googling overnight to support their socialism is alive in America.”

The guy who fails to document any of his nonsensical declarations / claims is now upset with those who do!.. Too funny.

Between ‘Braindead’ and TMV’s “nouveau Joseph McCarthy” this has been a very entertaining thread.

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

nouveau Joseph McCarthy

Ah, keeping it classy as always, eh, Steve? It’s always so good to know that people here welcome all viewpoints.

SteveK
Guest
SteveK
7 years 5 months ago

“It’s always so good to know that people here welcome all viewpoints.”

They certainly are and I’m sure glad that that you feel good about it.

Speaking of points of view… I particularly liked the original McCarthy’s. They helped America turn away from hateful rhetoric and get back to business.

FWIW – He never produced a ‘list’, some even think he made the whole thing up!

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

Yeah, sure, Steve.

And the famous ‘list’ was a product of the HUAC, which was separate from McCarthy’s activities.

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
Stockboy, you’re sort of going back and forth here and I think that everyone should acknowledge that we’re short on facts to back up a lot of the assertions being made here. As long as those assertions are just being stated as opinion, fine- no one has time to do endless research on this. But you seem to admit that the infrastructure costs being spread over widely differing populations makes a difference, but you don’t know how much of a difference- but you’re still mad at the hypocrisy of people who probably don’t share your assumption about the inequity of… Read more »
HemmD
Guest
HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
CS Let’s start at the top. Let’s start with the basics: Socialism “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.” /www.merriam-webster.com Social security: “The comprehensive federal program of benefits providing workers and their dependents with retirement income, disability income, and other payments. The Social security tax is used to pay for the program.” http://www.investorwords.com/4617/Social_Security.html The government owns social security, administrates, and distributes the benefits of this program. This is a socialist program. Your response, you discounted my calling SS socialist by saying no one of… Read more »
CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
Hemm, I’m through responding to your questions that impugn my motives. How many times during that exchange last night did I say that I wasn’t following you, or as you even quoted me here, asking you if that was a serious question because I didn’t get it? But you call those responses “dodging”. And no, I still disagree that social security is socialism because the government doesn’t ‘own’ anything (true in more ways than one, since it doesn’t even maintain a real set aside fund as it should.) Sorry if we disagree on the terminology, but you seem to want… Read more »
CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

Criticizing something is not the same as not supporting it through their votes.

Sounds like an issue to maybe take up with Democrats vis a vis the Iraq War.

Meanwhile, I’ll continue to accept that what a politician (of either party) says and what he does are almost always two different things; partly that’s because the say what they think we want to hear, and partly it’s because even the ones with conviction sometimes know they have to choose their battles.

HemmD
Guest
HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
Cs You don’t accept a dictionary definition of socialism, nor do you accept an accepted definition of social security. Is your definition somehow secret? I want you to accept that definition because a reasonable person would accept the logically constructed argument. The fact you wish to impune my intentions as merely a means of gotcha is your problem. I am only trying to avoid the problem highlighted in “Through the Looking Glass.” ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’ “I initially… Read more »
kathyedits
Guest
kathyedits
7 years 5 months ago
What? That TVA and Medicare should be called socialism? Maybe TVA in it’s initial form, but not now as far as I know. And how is Medicare an example of government control of means of production? I believe Hemm answered this question quite cogently. I will just say that Republicans in Congress and conservatives in general love to argue that national health care is socialism. “Creeping socialism,” I think is one of their favored expressions for it. Yet, not one of those Republicans in Congress, or any other Republican public figure that I know of is saying or would say… Read more »
CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago

@ Kathy:
Yet, not one of those Republicans in Congress, or any other Republican public figure that I know of is saying or would say that Medicare is socialism, or advocate repealing it.
I’m not sure if he advocates wholesale repealing of Medicare or not, but you’ll find one of those guys right here, Kathy:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul143.html

That brand of conservatism exists even if it’s in the minority (just as there are some fiscally conservative Democrats, the Blue Dogs.)

JSpencer
Guest
JSpencer
7 years 5 months ago

“Yet, not one of those Republicans in Congress, or any other Republican public figure that I know of is saying or would say that Medicare is socialism, or advocate repealing it.”

Righto. Not much crying of socialism and wealth redistribution when it comes to social security and public education either, not to mention the military industrial complex. Funny how those double standards work. 😉

CStanley
Guest
CStanley
7 years 5 months ago
Hemm- I explained that I DO accept that dictionary definition but I also explained why social security doesn’t fit the definition. There is no ‘means of production’ being controlled by the government there. So what I’m saying is that you want everyone to accept your interpretation of the definition, and when they don’t you consider them hypocrites- but I just showed you why it’s not a case of hypocrisy if one doesn’t interpret the definition the way you do. You’re asserting that words have specific meanings, and the part of the definition of socialism that you’re leaving out is that… Read more »
HemmD
Guest
HemmD
7 years 5 months ago
Cs “and the part of the definition of socialism that you’re leaving out is that government owns and controls industries- that’s the precise part of it that conservatives/capitalists reject” The government owns the retirement industry for every American it requires to contribute to SS. If that’s not an industry with income, output in the way of retirement benefits, I guess we have to agree on a definition for industry too. “Commercial production and sale of goods.” http://www.thefreedictionary.com/industry This is just like the insurance industry without the profit margin. Government flood insurance is another example. Sure, you can have a private… Read more »
Braindead
Guest
Braindead
7 years 5 months ago
Its okay to have some socialist programs. I have never been against those. Its quite another to fake out Americans with Cap and trade and tax the shit out of all of us. Its quite another to take over General motors. To take over bank after bank. To take over Insurance companies. IN colorado the budget is not balanced. They are advocating taking over the private trust funds of companies for workers compenstation to balance the budget. Private citizen power grabs by the government with a fascist left who wants to destroy political opposition and continually points out how all… Read more »
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