Comments on: The Lebanon resolution provides a breathing space http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Wed, 15 Feb 2012 16:30:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Joe Camel http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10178 Joe Camel Sun, 13 Aug 2006 01:46:04 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10178 Even better than the bunkers - by not wearing uniforms and hiding among women, children and other "civilians" every Israeli strike killed only the "innocent" and never a soldier or a supporter. The cease fire is a joke anyway, Hezballos will have some reason why they won't quit. PING: TITLE: Goodbye Olmert, Hello Netanyahu BLOG NAME: Liberty and Justice Olmert agreed to this resolution. By doing so he didn't choose to do what's in the best interest of the Israeli people, he simply chose to make the international community happy. Hizbullah will be regarded the winner in the Arab world, Israel will appear to have been unable to fight Hizbullah effectively and Olmert now comes across as a leader who doesn't know what to do when facing a crisis. PING: TITLE: Peace in Our Time BLOG NAME: The Heretik This is not peace in our time: “The Security Council agreed unanimously on Friday on a measure calling for a full cessation of hostilities in Lebanon, deploying 30,000 Lebanese and United Nations forces in southern Lebanon and calling upon Israe... Even better than the bunkers – by not wearing uniforms and hiding among women, children and other “civilians” every Israeli strike killed only the “innocent” and never a soldier or a supporter.

The cease fire is a joke anyway, Hezballos will have some reason why they won’t quit.

PING:
TITLE: Goodbye Olmert, Hello Netanyahu
BLOG NAME: Liberty and Justice
Olmert agreed to this resolution. By doing so he didn’t choose to do what’s in the best interest of the Israeli people, he simply chose to make the international community happy.

Hizbullah will be regarded the winner in the Arab world, Israel will appear to have been unable to fight Hizbullah effectively and Olmert now comes across as a leader who doesn’t know what to do when facing a crisis.

PING:
TITLE: Peace in Our Time
BLOG NAME: The Heretik

This is not peace in our time: “The Security Council agreed unanimously on Friday on a measure calling for a full cessation of hostilities in Lebanon, deploying 30,000 Lebanese and United Nations forces in southern Lebanon and calling upon Israe…

]]> By: grognard http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10177 grognard Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:31:45 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10177 Wow, looks like there was no reconnaissance or infantry support at all. Wow, looks like there was no reconnaissance or infantry support at all.

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10176 Rudi Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:08:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10176 <a href="http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/" rel="nofollow">P Lang</a> Pat Lang at SicSemper Tyrannis has some post critical of the ground attack and the positioning of Israelis tanks in valleys were they were suseptible to TOW missiles and other anti-tank weapons. Maybe Israel needs a cease fire to avoid a real war, with many Israelis causualties, to avoid a larger PR nightmare at home. Olmert's prosecution of this fight makes Rumsfeld look good - LOL. P Lang
Pat Lang at SicSemper Tyrannis has some post critical of the ground attack and the positioning of Israelis tanks in valleys were they were suseptible to TOW missiles and other anti-tank weapons. Maybe Israel needs a cease fire to avoid a real war, with many Israelis causualties, to avoid a larger PR nightmare at home. Olmert’s prosecution of this fight makes Rumsfeld look good – LOL.

]]> By: grognard http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10175 grognard Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:28:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10175 The problem the IDF ran into was the bunker and defensive system, Hezbollah had done their homework and had created a defense that played to their strength, secrecy and the desire of the IDF to keep their casualties low. By operating as independent small groups fighting and retreating from one well concealed fortified position to another they could constantly inflict casualties, something Israeli public opinion would not tolerate for long. The IDF was caught in a dilemma, they needed to show progress but to take these positions quickly you loose people [talk to any WW2 vet from the Pacific]. Modern “bunker buster� bombs can help but first you have to identify where the positions are, and that takes boots on the ground. It will be interesting to see how the IDF reacts to this, I am thinking they might want to cut off escape/supply routes along the Litani river to pressure Hezbollah. The only silver lining in this for the IDF is that they now know that Hezbollah has changed tactics and are far more resourceful than previously thought, better to find this out now than latter. Elrod, I agree, Olmert is out; how Israel sorts this out politically is the question. The problem the IDF ran into was the bunker and defensive system, Hezbollah had done their homework and had created a defense that played to their strength, secrecy and the desire of the IDF to keep their casualties low. By operating as independent small groups fighting and retreating from one well concealed fortified position to another they could constantly inflict casualties, something Israeli public opinion would not tolerate for long. The IDF was caught in a dilemma, they needed to show progress but to take these positions quickly you loose people [talk to any WW2 vet from the Pacific]. Modern “bunker buster� bombs can help but first you have to identify where the positions are, and that takes boots on the ground.
It will be interesting to see how the IDF reacts to this, I am thinking they might want to cut off escape/supply routes along the Litani river to pressure Hezbollah. The only silver lining in this for the IDF is that they now know that Hezbollah has changed tactics and are far more resourceful than previously thought, better to find this out now than latter. Elrod, I agree, Olmert is out; how Israel sorts this out politically is the question.

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10174 Michael van der Galien Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:27:47 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10174 Meanwhile, the IDF tripled its presence in southern Lebanon -> up to 30 000 IDF soldiers are there right now -> the IDF makes a grant push for the Litani river -> the goal is to take control of the entire area within a couple of days Meanwhile, the IDF tripled its presence in southern Lebanon -> up to 30 000 IDF soldiers are there right now -> the IDF makes a grant push for the Litani river -> the goal is to take control of the entire area within a couple of days

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10173 Michael van der Galien Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:44:18 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10173 <blockquote>By accepting this he puts paid to the "we couldn't tolerate the situation' cry. Apparently they could, and so all the dead Lebanese kids on TV were killed for not for very much.</blockquote> That could be said indeed. The situation doesn't change drastically enough to explain why Israel went to war (half heartedly). Olmert will most likely try to paint this as some sort of victory for Israel, but just looking at the facts I think that one has to acknowledge that Siniora is the winner, Hizbullah will be (rightfully in my opinion) regarded to be the winner as well and Israel has lost tremendously.

By accepting this he puts paid to the “we couldn’t tolerate the situation’ cry. Apparently they could, and so all the dead Lebanese kids on TV were killed for not for very much.

That could be said indeed. The situation doesn’t change drastically enough to explain why Israel went to war (half heartedly). Olmert will most likely try to paint this as some sort of victory for Israel, but just looking at the facts I think that one has to acknowledge that Siniora is the winner, Hizbullah will be (rightfully in my opinion) regarded to be the winner as well and Israel has lost tremendously.

]]> By: SnarkyShark http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10172 SnarkyShark Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:52:23 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10172 <i>Olmert messed up tremendously. He should never accept this ridiculous resolution.</i> I sort of agree. By accepting this he puts paid to the "we couldn't tolerate the situation' cry. Apparently they could, and so all the dead Lebanese kids on TV were killed for not for very much. Wounded pride apparently. A better solution would have to not gone batsh*t crazy in the first place. Isreal came out of this diminished in every way. I used to be quite an Isreal fan, but not anymore. They are pretty good against rock-throwing teenagers. Against real oppisition, not so much. Olmert messed up tremendously. He should never accept this ridiculous resolution.

I sort of agree. By accepting this he puts paid to the “we couldn’t tolerate the situation’ cry. Apparently they could, and so all the dead Lebanese kids on TV were killed for not for very much. Wounded pride apparently.

A better solution would have to not gone batsh*t crazy in the first place.

Isreal came out of this diminished in every way. I used to be quite an Isreal fan, but not anymore. They are pretty good against rock-throwing teenagers. Against real oppisition, not so much.

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10171 Michael van der Galien Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:53:11 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10171 Olmert has failed to do what's in the best interest of Israel. There are two main reasonings in Israel -> one is represented by Haaretz the other by JPost. Both, both left and right, agree: Olmert messed up tremendously. He should never accept this ridiculous resolution. If he withdraws within the coming days from Lebanon, he'll loose support from both the Right ánd Left. The only person who thinks he did well, is Olmert himself probably. Mark my words: it could very quickly be goodbye Olmert, hello Netanyahu. Olmert has failed to do what’s in the best interest of Israel. There are two main reasonings in Israel -> one is represented by Haaretz the other by JPost. Both, both left and right, agree: Olmert messed up tremendously. He should never accept this ridiculous resolution. If he withdraws within the coming days from Lebanon, he’ll loose support from both the Right ánd Left. The only person who thinks he did well, is Olmert himself probably.

Mark my words: it could very quickly be goodbye Olmert, hello Netanyahu.

]]> By: SnarkyShark http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10170 SnarkyShark Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:30:09 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10170 Isreal has learned that being able to treat Lebenon as its personal whipping boy is now a non-starter. I dearly wish that Russia or China will supply Lebenon with their very best AA missles in case Likud should make a come-back and forget the lessons learned here. The US should do this, but since the Defense department is a policy arm of Isreals, there is no chance. Good luck to the Lebanese people, the true victims in all this. BTW, the Iranians reversed engineered the TOW missles that Ollie and the original Neo-con idiots sold them. This is part of the reasons for Hezzys success. More poisen seeds from the St Ronnie era. Crappy foriegn policy from yahoos is the the gift that keeps on giving. Just remember this in the future when some Rush clone is trying to blame Democrats for the faluires in the future that were created in todays modern debacles. Isreal has learned that being able to treat Lebenon as its personal whipping boy is now a non-starter.

I dearly wish that Russia or China will supply Lebenon with their very best AA missles in case Likud should make a come-back and forget the lessons learned here.

The US should do this, but since the Defense department is a policy arm of Isreals, there is no chance.

Good luck to the Lebanese people, the true victims in all this.

BTW, the Iranians reversed engineered the TOW missles that Ollie and the original Neo-con idiots sold them. This is part of the reasons for Hezzys success. More poisen seeds from the St Ronnie era.

Crappy foriegn policy from yahoos is the the gift that keeps on giving. Just remember this in the future when some Rush clone is trying to blame Democrats for the faluires in the future that were created in todays modern debacles.

]]> By: K. Gregory http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10169 K. Gregory Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:15:29 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10169 Sal: do you write for Letterman or Leno? Sal: do you write for Letterman or Leno?

]]> By: Uncle Joe McCarthy http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10168 Uncle Joe McCarthy Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:54:22 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10168 salmenio, thanks for adding the idiot response...i needed some comedy today salmenio,

thanks for adding the idiot response…i needed some comedy today

]]> By: Salmenio http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10167 Salmenio Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:41:16 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10167 Whatever happens, eventually the Israelis will find an excuse to take all of Lebanon, force its people into refugee camps and fulfill another portion of the zionist doctoring of restoring all the lands of king David to Israel. Unless... Whatever happens, eventually the Israelis will find an excuse to take all of Lebanon, force its people into refugee camps and fulfill another portion of the zionist doctoring of restoring all the lands of king David to Israel.

Unless…

]]> By: Elrod http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10166 Elrod Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:15:50 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10166 Good analysis, as usual. As I said on another thread, there is a victory of sorts for all here: Israel gets Hezbollah above the Litani. Lebanon gets peace and a chance to rebuild. And Hezbollah survives as an Arab hero. In the end, Hezbollah wins out, though. The Lebanese forces are a joke. They are poorly manned, they have rusty equipment, and they are completely divided internally. More importantly, they will NEVER take on Hezbollah because they don't want a civil war. UNIFIL has only marginally more teeth than before, but not enough to keep Hezbollah out of the area below the Litani. Within months, I bet Hezbollah starts sneaking back in and rebuilding bunkers and rocket launch emplacements. Israel, on the other hand, suffers a draw. It's political leadership is under intense scrutinty. This will look like defeat within Israel and the Cabinet will not survive. Go and read Haaretz (left) and JPost (right) for a general consensus that Olmert has been an utter failure. Moreover, the IDF will suffer a lack of confidence. Sure, they can always beat Hamas and other ragtag Palestinian outfits. But when faced with a modern, fully-equiped, well-trained guerrilla army, they could not win. Good analysis, as usual. As I said on another thread, there is a victory of sorts for all here: Israel gets Hezbollah above the Litani. Lebanon gets peace and a chance to rebuild. And Hezbollah survives as an Arab hero.

In the end, Hezbollah wins out, though. The Lebanese forces are a joke. They are poorly manned, they have rusty equipment, and they are completely divided internally. More importantly, they will NEVER take on Hezbollah because they don’t want a civil war. UNIFIL has only marginally more teeth than before, but not enough to keep Hezbollah out of the area below the Litani. Within months, I bet Hezbollah starts sneaking back in and rebuilding bunkers and rocket launch emplacements.

Israel, on the other hand, suffers a draw. It’s political leadership is under intense scrutinty. This will look like defeat within Israel and the Cabinet will not survive. Go and read Haaretz (left) and JPost (right) for a general consensus that Olmert has been an utter failure. Moreover, the IDF will suffer a lack of confidence. Sure, they can always beat Hamas and other ragtag Palestinian outfits. But when faced with a modern, fully-equiped, well-trained guerrilla army, they could not win.

]]> By: grognard http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10165 grognard Sat, 12 Aug 2006 03:02:03 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10165 The Lebanese foreign minister said they would accept the deal, Rice said basically the same thing. Mike P: Yes, it looks like there are going to be some problems. Problem one is the bunker system built up by Hezbollah, will this extensive system be abandoned by them after so much work? Will it be destroyed? Problem two, what does the peacekeeping force do if rockets are fired over their heads, as the Druze leader pointed out? Long term, how long do these forces have to stay , years, decades? Maybe this is only a temporary solution but that is about all we can expect in the Middle East. The Lebanese foreign minister said they would accept the deal, Rice said basically the same thing. Mike P: Yes, it looks like there are going to be some problems. Problem one is the bunker system built up by Hezbollah, will this extensive system be abandoned by them after so much work? Will it be destroyed?
Problem two, what does the peacekeeping force do if rockets are fired over their heads, as the Druze leader pointed out? Long term, how long do these forces have to stay , years, decades? Maybe this is only a temporary solution but that is about all we can expect in the Middle East.

]]> By: Mike P. http://themoderatevoice.com/7211/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/comment-page-1/#comment-10164 Mike P. Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:45:01 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2006/08/12/uncategorized/the-lebanon-resolution-provides-a-breathing-space/#comment-10164 <blockquote> The resolution’s chief weakness is that it is approved under Chapter 6 of the UN Charter. That means the expanded UN peacekeeping force it envisages, called UNIFIL, is not explicitly authorized to shoot to kill or disarm Hezbollah fighters. </blockquote> I'm afraid that distinction is its <i>fatal</i> weakness, unfortunately. We've seen this before. Without that specific authority, this is doomed to fail - and in many ways it's a giant step backward in history. I hate to say it, but it is a considerable defeat for the Israelis as it stands now. Any way you look at it - Diplomatic, PR, or military, Hezbollah earned far more respect in the region than they deserve. And, similar to the US in Iraq, it does more to point out the limits of Israeli power and influence than to strengthen it. I wonder how long Olmert will last?

The resolution’s chief weakness is that it is approved under Chapter 6 of the UN Charter. That means the expanded UN peacekeeping force it envisages, called UNIFIL, is not explicitly authorized to shoot to kill or disarm Hezbollah fighters.

I’m afraid that distinction is its fatal weakness, unfortunately. We’ve seen this before. Without that specific authority, this is doomed to fail – and in many ways it’s a giant step backward in history. I hate to say it, but it is a considerable defeat for the Israelis as it stands now. Any way you look at it – Diplomatic, PR, or military, Hezbollah earned far more respect in the region than they deserve. And, similar to the US in Iraq, it does more to point out the limits of Israeli power and influence than to strengthen it.

I wonder how long Olmert will last?

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