In Case You Missed the News …
We announced yesterday that, starting this evening, we will discontinue readers’ self-published comments on a three-month trial basis.
Out of the 8,000-plus visits (and nearly 15,000 page views) registered at this blog yesterday, we received more than 130 comments on that decision. The verdict was … mixed: Some thought it was the end of TMV as we know it. Others expressed empathy, with a dash of remorse. And so on.
Meanwhile, a number of TMV authors took time to add their perspectives, including how to reach them with your thoughts about their posts, after self-published comments are turned off. That’s important: We’re moving forward with this three-month experiment, but the opportunity for comments is not going away; we’re only changing the means by which they’re offered.
On a related and final note: We remain interested in compelling, relevant, well-written content from guest contributors, including readers. If you have a topic in mind, send me a draft (abel.reply@gmail.com) and we’ll consider it for publication. (Note: The acceptance or rejection of unsolicited guest submissions is left entirely to the discretion of the site’s editors, primarily but not exclusively Joe, Dr. E., and yours truly.)
44 Responses to “In Case You Missed the News …”
That's too bad. I enjoy interacting via comment threads. It makes it interactive. I'm not sure what you mean by “changing the means by which (comments) are offered.” Can you explain, Pete?
I've noticed that lately there has been a broader participation on the comment threads. It's a shame that just when the comment community is growing, the chance to comment will disappear.
From the original post, I would assume that he means via e-mail, at the discretion of the individual contributors receiving them from readers.
I consider it somewhat of an even trade: the amount of time spent each day combing through online comments versus the amount of time spent by authors having to read through each e-mail and deciding which to post. I say somewhat, because each has its own pros and cons.
I also understand the sense of exasperation on both sides on this issue, the editors and the commentators. My personal hope is that things will return to a modified sense of what they are now after the three months has expired.
If you post into the abyss, the abyss will no longer be allowed to post back.
The biggest problem with the email to author route is speed and feel. You simply cannot hold a conversation online when each response must wait for author approval.
What will most likely happen is that people will see articles on TMV and the go off to the authors blogspot to respond. After a while, they will just favorite the people they most agree with or find most challenging and simply go to those spots without coming to TMV. Once traffic here drops to 1/10 what it was, they might turn the comments back on, but if a tree falls in the forest….
“speed and feel”
I'd say the feel part is the more significant of the two. Submitting via email is very much the same as composing essays or articles that begin threads. I was once invited to do this (as a non-liberal for this site) and I declined, because my schedule is erratic and I can't be a reliable source, and because I was not quite sure if I wanted to do it, and felt I shouldn't unless I really was committed. I'd rather view the comments and join in when and where it is merited.
Wait, what??? I tell ya, I'm gone for one day, and it's the day in which this news hits.
In any case, I will dearly miss the interaction with all of the commenters and contributors to TMV. I feel that in some ways, the regulars here have kind of become a family — albeit an often disfunctional one.
We bounce ideas off of each other, try to learn and to teach, feel strong connections and reach understandings, and roll our eyes at our favorite drunken uncle as he goes on yet another embarrassing and inappropriate rant.
One question for the mods: if the previous thread was one in which the contributors gave ways to reach them in the comments, is it possible to have that post and thread continue to appear somewhere (maybe in the “contact us” or “about TMV's authors” sections)? I know some folks take a few days off from TMV, and they'll likely want to know what's going on.
The tone of this post sounds final, so I debated whether to write this or not…but here goes anyway.
Some thoughts on potential other remedies for the problem of comment moderation- first, to summarize what I saw in the comment thread on this yesterday:
1. Some people say, why moderate at all or more particularly, why insist that someone has to read all of the comments rather than just responding to things that are flagged by other commenters.
2. Other people seem to be saying that the level of monitoring and moderation should remain unchanged, but should be the responsbility of each author (or presumably, authors who don't wish to take on this responsibility would close comments on their own posts.)
3. Still others suggested that a fee for service would provide revenue to pay someone to moderate the site.
4. Some commenters expressed an interest in 'being part of the solution' by either volunteering to help moderate or suggesting that the entire community could police itself better.
I think that in order to understand if any of these suggestions (either alone or taken in combination) could be workable, we'd have to better understand the nature of the problem.
Comments requiring moderation come in various forms, and volume of the various types of problems is one piece of information we'd need to understand. In addition, I wonder how much time is taken up in discussing the potential deletions and banning with commenters who disagree with the decisions (either a commenter who is disappointed that the moderater decided to allow something that he/she felt should go, or a commenter who appeals the decision made to ban him/her.)
If the bulk of the comments causing problems are not from established commenters, but from hit and run types (the cockroaches that come out in the dark of night, with Dr. E going in and flashing the light on in order to stomp them out), then there could be a solution like this:
a) Require registration which must be approved by a moderator (to stop the one hit wonder type of commenter.) This would then of course require some extra work too, but could be done at the time of convenience of the moderator.
b)Or, have registration closed most of the time but with some brief, announced, enrollment periods- to further increase the convenience for the moderator to only have to deal with this during certain brief periods of time.
Now, if the bulk of (or a large portion of) the problem is for people who have been commenting for a period of time but either begin a pattern of disregarding the comment rules or cross them on certain occasions when things get overheated, then what would seem a possible solution would include some policing by the regular commenters by flagging such comments. Another variation of this was the suggestion of a 'thumbs up/thumbs down' marking system. This would require that the flagged comments be hidden from view until a moderator has a chance to review them and decide whether to permanently delete (and whether the commenter should also be banned) or not. These systems carry some risk of abuse too, if commenters use it to censor comments that they simply don't like- either because of the views expressed or the personality of the other commenter -rather than an actual violation of the commenting rules.
And then the third issue is discussion or appeals of decisions made. Here, commenters would have to agree that the decision of the moderator is final and the moderator too would have to stick by this rule and not get drawn into debate about it.
On the idea of charging a fee- I don't think the concept is bad but bear in mind that it carries consequences. If the entire site was fee based, it would definitely affect page hits and potential advertising revenues. If the fee was only for an enhanced membership which enabled commenting, then it might work- but it also might not generate enough revenue for even a 'modest' salary
And then there's point #1 above, expressed mainly by libertarian nicrivera…is this level of proactive moderation even necessary, and is there really any big difference between what has been happening lately vs. what we saw during other contentious times during the GOP majority.
On the first point, if vigilance is necessary, I'd probably disagree with nic. When sites don't run a tight ship, I think things rapidly degenerate until there's no longer any space in the environment for good discussion. Of course nic may be saying that this could be avoided simply by using the 'flagging' method, and if that hasn't at least been tried I'd say it should be attempted before ruling it out (especially in combination with the probation period before new registrants can self publish their comments.)
On the other point nic raised yesterday, asking what is so different now. Well, I hope I don't step on any toes saying this but I can't help but agree that things were way worse (at least from what got through moderation or was ignored) back in the day than they have been lately. That either means that it was known that there was a problem then, and then Dr. E and/or others came along to work on the problem and have done a good job of improving things…or, alternatively the explanation is that the editorial team here didn't see the previous stuff as being that bad. If it's the latter, that would fit with what I see happening here with the stories about right wing hate speech- that by and large, the editors here have the perception that when left wing bloggers and commenters go off they are just blowing off steam but when it's coming from the political right there is a dangerous aspect to it. If it's not already obvious, I think that's complete hogwash and part of what I mentioned in another thread recently- that I think we all know that crazy people inhabit both sides of the political spectrum but deep down we all tend to think that the other side's crazies are a bit more unhinged.
The owners here are ignoring the addiction-factor of how their site is appealing in the first place..lol..
We addicts need our “fix” fast and furious. Asking us to wait for a bestowal of grace from an autocratic overlord [singular site administrator] is like asking a crack-addict to wait a week to get his next puff of his crackpipe…and that only a maybe.. Or like asking someone with super high-speed internet to go back to dialup willingly.. Ain't gonna happen.
We'll disappear to other sites and this site will lose it's ad revenues and become just another backwater political site with the occasional tumbleweed blowing through. Again, I believe you folks are vastly overestimating the value of your articles. No offense but talent is out there and just some of it is here. People will select an interactive venue over one that rules with an iron fist. The value in this site is and always was the comments to the articles and not the articles themselves. We come here for the back and forth. No more back and forth, then it's just a bunch of dime-a-dozen internet authors patting each other on the back and masturbating. No thanks..
Just calling it as I see it. Which will become a relic of the past here..
The articles (that begin the threads) stimulate the comments, Sil. Some articles stimulate more comments than others. But the comments really are, as I call them, the soul of this site. To remove them is a mistake.
This is what's likely to be one of the saddest unintended consequences, IMO, because it will further the process by which people are already tending to get their information from sources with which they already agree. The 'moderate' part of TMV has always been explained as a result of mixing some sources with liberal tendencies with others who are more right leaning. As it is, I'm sure some people who come here select which authors to read, and not just because of talent of the writers but also their perspectives. By and large though, I think that when you come here now you can't help but engage in some of the discussions which represent viewpoints that are different than your own. Quite frankly, I believe that a lot of the balance comes in the comment section when at times its lacking in the front pages. So in addition to the site probably declining in viewership, I think it will become more of an echo chamber as well. Hope I'm wrong, but that's what I have to predict.
“it will further the process by which people are already tending to get their information from sources with which they already agree”
I had literally typed that out and then deleted it. I wanted to give TMV people a little more credit than that, even though you are most likely correct.
In order to even seek out a place of “moderation”, you have to be open to new ideas and people challenging your own.
[And because it looks like I missed the boat timing-wise here in yesterday's comment thread on this topic, I wanted to re-publish what I wrote in the other thread, esp. my great appreciation to the blog-side people and the comment-side people.]
I am extremely sorry to see the comments go AND I empathize enormously with Joe, dr. e, Pete and all the co-bloggers regarding their sentiments about the situation. Having written a personal political blog for six years, I've been hit with pretty much everything as far as threats and inappropriateness go – including trips to the police station to report those threats and apologies when this one-dimensional medium really didn't do justice to what commenters were trying to get at – and I wasn't able to understand.
A few additions:
1. I worked hard to stick in there with every post I wrote via the comments because I always believe that I can learn something from anyone, anyone. Don't know how it will come about or what it is but there can't be learning if there's not active engagement. I think this is what, as others have written, I will miss the most, and what I deem to be the biggest benefit to me that the commenters provide (and for which I thank each of you – many of you who have already commented in this thread).
2. When you blog, you open yourself up to everything. If you're not willing to accept all that that means, then you should think twice (or more) about whether is blogging is for you.
BUT – and a big but – that being said, people who cannot play nicely, no matter how the blog authors seek to curb the enthusiasm that gets out of line, can be ignored- I do it all the time when I read other people's blogs, but as the blog author and host, there's a reputation, an environment to shape and maintain. If it begins to get both poisoned and outrageous to maintain, the pleasure and the benefits are vastly diminished – and it becomes crazily unfair (esp. to people like dr. e).
This is a tragically unfortunate thing and we all deal with it in one form or another – consider how political groups form and re-form when they start to feel that others are “ruining” it for them because they're too fringe or too moderate or too anything that one group doesn't like.
But this is also what forms the basis of reaching a social compact of sorts, to maintain and prolong and deepen the connections we build here. Yet, when that compact is broken, we have to decide, now what? And it seems that TMV is simply at that juncture in trying to figure out, now what.
But it does force us to draw lines, check our guts and then perhaps recalibrate – as so many here have suggested, with some very legitimate and doable ideas.
3. I've always believed that the explosion of blogs has been a reaction to the feeling that no one has been listening and so we've found these places to go. I happen to think that that is great, but we don't all come from the same place when we find a place that's hospitable to commenters, and particularly anonymous commenters. I've had a real issue with anonymity and at times in threads I've brought that up – I put myself out here and if someone is going to pick at me and pick on me and pick me apart, and remain anonymous all the time, they better be someone with whom I've developed or can develop an intimacy with, something that is NOT easy to do simply by exchanging comments, but can be done, I know it can be done because that is what TMV has done for so many of us commenting in this thread.
However, it's the misuse of that privilege here or right more generally speaking to speak one's mind that then leads to where I see us today in regard to this decision to shut down the comments.
Some people are born to provoke and provoke for the sake of provoking, yet here on TMV we've strived so hard to keep the comment threads relevant. I think this decision to shut down comments for a bit reflects a desire to maybe help us all re-focus on what it takes to keep a post and a comment thread relevant and not attractive to those who provoke at will in ways that don't enhance.
I believe at the core that Joe G et al continue to want this to be THE best site and certainly the best it can be. I see this experiment as a way to figure out what that means in these times.
I share everyone's best wishes to everyone else, I share the thank yous to you for engaging and I share optimism that we will figure this out so that active, public engagement with one another – posters and commenters – can re-start sometime soon while also enhancing and not endangering the discourse.
Thanks everyone.
Jill
CS
This comment reflects your usual icy rational approach to the problem before you. Just taking the time to say also whereas you and I have had some mythic debates, at no time did I ever feel you were anything but respectful to my comments. Agreement was never the real point of our discussions, but at the same time, I'd like to believe we both learned to look at subjects in a more enlightened way due to the challenges presented in our debates. For these discussions, I thank you.
Likewise is true throughout the vast majority of other interactions I have had with people at this site.
To this site,
I guess I'm just not quite sure where the problem is here. The interactive nature of this blog is why I came here. I certainly don't need more one sided opinion pieces with no opportunity to call out the talking points for what they are. Equally important is reading comments that point out my own bias. If the job of moderation has become too much effort, consider the offers of help and solutions you're readers have supplied. Please realize you are changing TMV from a meeting house to just another place with a pulpit.
Joe, jazz, et al; I wish you success, but to be honest like a friend, I'm not sure where you'll find it. Sermons show their value only when they are discussed, analyzed, and responded to. I find it hard to believe the revenues drawn from site hits will not go down.
I may read these articles when I come here, but I have also come here to find out what Austin, DLS, and CStanley have to say. With this change, half my motivations is now gone.
Icy, huh? And the other day someone called me 'slippery'. I oughta flag these ad hominem attacks!
Seriously though, I appreciate the debates we've had too and hope we meet again.
I wanted to give TMV people a little more credit than that, even though you are most likely correct.
Well, I hope no one is offended that I went there. Part of the reason for my comment though is that I personally have sometimes stayed away from this site for periods of time when I got annoyed, but then came back after a while because it's been hard to find other blogs where my POV can be consistently challenged and I also have an opportunity to challenge those who see things differently than I do.
So in a way, it's my own ability to avoid echo chambers that's at stake here.
A side note…I wonder who will get the last word in tonight before the plug is pulled? Tee hee…
So, I see your side is stating that ice is not slippery. Ms Stanley, you give up these simplistic talking points…
LOL!
Well, sir, you are just creating a narrative about me because you have no evidence to substantiate the claim that I am either 'slippery' or 'icy', and furthermore, you are putting words in my mouth because you obviously can't show me where I've EVER said that ice is not slippery. If I were icy, of course I'd be slippery. The point is, that both are false attributes.
Hi roro,
Sorry you missed yesterday's very spirited discussion. You would have liked it & no doubt had strong input. FYI, many contributors have also voiced a sense of loss and are taking steps to keep comments and discussions going. Joe Windish is going twitter. Kathy K has opened a cross blog, Mikkel is cross postng from his blog. I have opened a direct link to a Disqus powered dedicated thread.
Solutions are being tried to keep our wonderful, disfunctional, family in contact. To you, and all others who voice concerns, I hope everyone sticks around and continues to comment/discuss during this 90 day test.
Speaking just for myself, I remain hopeful of finding a way forward.
I think you're objecting because you know you are more like a tsunami than an iceberg.
If you tell me how to do the discus thread thing I'll probably not cross post because I realized that disqus has features I need
Good Bye All!
Ms
CStanley
The very fact you keep trying to slip through my conjectures demonstrate the first part of my accusation. As to the icy charge, your denials leave me cold; ergo, that coolness must come from somewhere. Are you trying to insinuate that anything but Warming rhetoric would come from someone on the Left? Please!
And to think the TMV gods want to miss such articulate duals of political acumen. We must be among the heathen.
Mikkel,
Two ways to use Disqus. If your blog is WordPress, go to the Dashboard and from there to Plug Ins. At Plug In, you can select Disqus and download for your comments (free). Then go back to Dashboard and from Dashboard, go to Pages, and add a separate comment page(s). You can then link directly to the comment page from an article you post. You can have multiple comment pages to allow comments on multiple articles. If you want to see how it works, check out my post on “Leadership” today were I have included such a link.
The second way is to piggyback on someone who has Disqus if your blog doesn't have it. If you want to do that, I'll share, i.e. give you a comment page (two if needed) at my site where you can link your readers for comments.
Tyrone may also have suggestions. He helped put up a comment page for Kathy K, but it's not Disqus.
Yeah I'd appreciate if you could give me a link to your comment page so I can be lazy.
Haha…perhaps.
What's really funny is how different our online personalities can be from real life. I know I'm a lot more confrontational here than in the face to face world, which either reflects cowardice or pragmatism depending on how you look at it I guess.
Stubborness (or I prefer, pertinacity) is a quality that persists across the two spheres though, I have to admit.
yes, roro there is always at least one crazy uncle in every family and tribe. . . Even the MeerKats have a crazy uncle. . .
Take care friend.
.
Mikkel,
You have a page titled “Mikkel”. The link is http://elijahssweetespot.com/?page_id=210 .
Careful, tidbits- mikkel's using the Franklin principle on you.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Cho Pei Chin. Cho Pei Chin said: In Case You Missed the News …: If your blog is WordPress, go to the Dashboard and from there to Plug Ins. ….. be… http://bit.ly/cnf0h0 [...]
Apologies for interrupting the fun, but I'm afraid I simply cannot let this go by:
That is exactly the sort of striving for false equivalence I've often talked about here. In fact, the rise of rightwing extremists took a big jump when Obama threw his hat in the ring. The idea that there are an equal number of potentially dangerous number of people and groups on the left as their are on the right is at best naive and disingenuous. Don't believe me? Read on…
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intellige…
The magician only shows the audience the “trick” when needing a diversion to do the real magic.
dear shannonlee: I had not seen your email, but would like to invite you, if you wish, to send it again. You have my email addy from my communique with you a couple weeks ago by email. If you dont wish to now, that's ok too. But you are welcome to suggest a guest voice, or send to Pete as he mentioned in his article above. Thanks. Go well and be safe over there.
If this be my last attempt to post a comment on TMV, let me make this a good'un…
1) Just a reminder that for all their current talk The Republicans are not interested in, nor all that good at, deficit reduction;
What, I'm not allowed to shamelessly plug my works a'la Beck/Hannity/50 other Beltway hacks? Pfft. Those guys get all the breaks.
2) We seriously need a jobs package to reduce the unemployment rate in this country within the next six months.
3) I'm putting my book Last of the Grapefruit Wars on Kindle and Sony eReader formats, but it might be some time before they get it available for downloading. Just keep an eye out for it please…
4) Check out the websites for MightyGodKing and Occasional Superheroine and Flick Filosopher! kthanks.
5) I'd like there to be one last thing to say… but it would take more than 50,000 words so I'll save it for another time…
from the other post:
A potential solution, at least temporary. Those posts I like, I will post to greendreams.wordpress.com with the exact title of the original post and a link to the TMV post. Would-be commenters google the original post title. If someone has already posted, I'll use that link (so there's only one comment thread for each TMV post).
Find the Google result on greendreams and go there to comment. I'll moderate those I link to. Disqus doesn't work on wordpress.com unfortunately, so you'd have to use the wordpress comment system.
A tad clumsy, but it would work. To see how, Google the title of the original post: “Discontinuing Self-Published Reader Comments”. Currently on google #5 link is
Discontinuing Self-Published Reader Comments >> GreenDreams.
That link would take you to the comment thread on the post (though I won't be copying the current thread to my blog). This is only a test. Try it if you like. Any others care to join me in taking the comment threads elsewhere?
You sent me an email? I emailed TMV with my normal email address. My disq email is my spam email….which has about 2000 unread messages.
Shoot…I hope you didn't think I was ignoring you and any warnings you might have sent my way
Pete–
Thanks also to you for all your hard work!!
I'm embarrassed to have almost forgotten to thank you, personally!
I've posted at quite a few sites and this one had some of the most longstanding restrained discourse of any that I can remember. I've been stalked at a couple of sites, threatened with bodily harm, had my computer hacked and so on. Here it's just been a few snitty remarks and digs. If the folks at TMV can't handle this group of bloggers then they don't belong on the web at all. I assure you there is much much worse out there..
Scarecrow, I think I'll miss you most of all….
But yeah, I'll look into the cross blog and stuff.
xxoo
Roro
Roro,
“Scarecrow, I think I'll miss you most of all….”
Thanks, 'Dorothy'. My love to Toto.
Best always,
tidbits
No Shannonlee, no warnings at all. I sent you an friendly email in answer to your direct question to me you posted on an article. I replied and then asked you what issues might be going on in Germany where you live and etc. I didnt hear back from you and wondered and though maybe like all others you know, busy going like sixty. Go look in your spam folder. Would you like me to send it again? It went to the 'football' one.
dr.e
“Thanks also to you for all your hard work!!”
Seconded, Pete, wherever you are still largely behind the scenes.
Good luck in St. Louis, a great place, and hopefully you won't suffer if or when your industry is targeted.
Hehe JS.
My way of saying goodbye to all will simply be to say it is my strong point of view that the SPLC sees the world through a particular lens that renders your link unconvincing to me.
As to the number of extremists and their relative violence, I honestly have no idea and I rather imagine that nobody else does either, except maybe some folks in the FBI who probably would have to kill us if they told us.
Could we maybe simply agree that extremists who use violence or the threat of violence to get their way or advance their agenda are bad? Could we also agree that the number of extremists is constantly in flux and probably tends inversely to the party in power and the state of the economy?
I think an argument about whose extremists are more numerous or worse is a useless argument. Even if you win it, what does it prove? I'm a conservative. I suspect everyone here knows that. I don't control nutcases, in fact, I don't even really control my kids (a fact that is painfully obvious with frequency). Painting with a broad brush is simply a lazy attempt to discredit your opponent rather than his or her position.
All of that said, I hope the extremists on all sides can be brought to see some sense of rationality. Based on history and the trend line that I can see over my life, I rather doubt this will be the case. Extremism is easy. It's a belief system. You learn the tenets and you never have to question again. Nuance is hard. Listening is hard.
One of the best things about TMV imo is that it actually provided what I believe will become our new way to build trust. The old way was authority. Whether the NYT or Walter Cronkite, the times of my parents were built on authority. In the present, there is no more “neutral” authority. We have done such a good job as a society focusing on motives rather than rationale that we tend to either trust absolutely or not at all. TMV offered a place where differing views and supporting facts were brought together and hashed through. Was it ugly on occasion, sure? But is that type of discourse the only way to find truth in a world devoid of authority, I rather suspect that it is.
So, to the editors and owners of this site, please accept my great praise for the community you have created and my apologies for the fact that I will not be visiting it as often, given that its essential function, in my view, will have been lost.
TLDR version; I disagree with JS and think the question of extremists is a form of ad hominem. I think TMV represents a unique and the only good form of finding truth in a polarized world devoid of authority.