The concern here is that people will become paranoid about software in their cars, and as a result they will avoid electronically controlled safety devices like anti-lock brakes, stability control, or even air bags.

If this happens, then the roads will become even more dangerous than they were before the hysteria.

Car companies don't sell the safest car possible, and they never will. The safest car possible would cost $100,000, have horrible handling, and not fit in your garage.

People compromise safety for money and convenience all the time. This compromise is called “living your life”. When making these compromises, we just want to have some ballpark idea of the dangers involved. If it's a “struck by lightning” type risk, as it is here, than it's not worth raising a stink over.

You really want to make the roads safer – hold Congressional hearings about drunk driving, road rage, or simple speeding. Toyota is not the problem.

And the Toyota problem is not a recall issue, it is a cover-up issue, IMHO.

The real question is…

What don't we know about their cars?

I think they saw the writing on the public-anger wall, and decided to clear the decks while everybody was looking the other way. Not a chance do I think the timing was coincidental.

GM, for instance: Last April, they recalled 1.5 million vehicles. Ten days ago, they recalled another 1.3 million. Nobody thinks this looks a tad odd?

To use extreme examples (as they make the point clearly), do you empathize with Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao and their genocides to achieve purity? How about with Charles Taylor and his decision to hack the limbs off children in Liberia as part of his war efforts? Can you put yourself in their shoes?

Putting people's life at unnecessary risk of severe injury and death by deception to maintain corporate profit levels is about as unethical and illegal an activity business can engage in, and is closely related to my examples.

I will not even say we agree to disagree. I will flat out say you are wrong, and if you think about it for a while, you should realize that.

Secondly understanding does not mean condoning, it means seeing their reasoning. What they did was wrong obviously and they should be held to account. This goes to something I never understand…how come when you say that you empathize, i.e. put yourself in someone else's shoes, look at it from their perspective and try to understand motives, that 99% of the time you're jumped on for saying you agree with the actions. Ironically that's something I'll never be able to understand.

I'm just saying that people shouldn't freak out about this stuff, which is a multi-billion dollar hit, then turn around and demonize the people that made the decision because they were afraid of the hit. Because you know what? Businesses will keep pulling this crap because they get away with it 9 times out of 10 and it's better for them to roll the dice.

I can just understand why they made that decision and feel our culture has a part in it

Sorry mikkel, but what an utter load of crap.

In the first place, you are saying that fear of being sued in the US courts is justification for lying to the courts, withholding subpoenaed information, and hiding life-threatening safety defects.

And secondly, as I said, this is NOT a US problem. It is coming out they have been doing the same in Europe, Asia and South America.

Then hopefully they will. I can just understand why they made that decision and feel our culture has a part in it, which doesn't absolve them of responsibility or guilt of course.

And anyway, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Toyota has gone to extremes, illegally so it is now fairly obvious, to hide known severe safety problems. This does not appear to be the actions of a rogue executive or two, but rather a strategic decision at the highest levels to protect the brand instead of protecting consumers.

I have never been an anti-business poster, and indeed have often been accused of being heartlessly pro-business here at TMV, but in this case, in my mind, criminal activities have almost certainly occurred, and if that is indeed proven true, then Toyota executives deserve to go to jail, and Toyota as a company deserves all the billions of dollars of losses and lawsuit awards and settlements that will be forthcoming.

Final point. This issue of hiding of data is not a US-centered problem. It is now clear that it is happening in every market worldwide that Toyota sells cars.

You had me fooled as well!

I agree that there are enough risks in life and that it is hard to manage risk, as a lot of it is beyond our control.

However, in the Toyota case, a problem that has been known for years, it is an unnecessary, irresponsible, additive risk (additive to so many risks we already can't control) that could have been avoided (by early corrective action by Toyota) and one that some of us can now try to mitigate, e.g. by driving out Toyotas as little as possible, not using them for long trips, renting cars, not transporting our loved ones (especially our young ones) in them, etc. etc.

As to

there is also a lot greater chance of getting into an accident because you haven't maintained it perfectly, get distracted, or a drunk or tired driver plows right into you without warning (which is how the vast majority of people I know that have been killed in cars have gone out)

, I believe both the authors addressed that, and I maintained that it is comparing apples to oranges, but that is just one opinion.

Thanks

Me too, Polimom. They've had a stellar safety record until recently. This company set the bar for American manufacturers. They've hit a bad patch. I hope they get over it.

Let me run something by you about this, that's been itching at my brain…..

All car companies have had their share of recalls, safety issues, and the like. However, I don't remember a company being thrown under the steamroller as is the case now with Toyota.
Would this have something to do with them being a non-union employer of hundreds of thousands of Americans? In the present political climate, it would not be shocking if it were for that very reason. Something tells me that if the same thing were to happen at GM, the union-paid-for Congressional majority would not be as animate about its demise.

Of course…. I could be wrong. If Toyota sat on information knowing full well about the defect and did nothing, then they should fry. But if this is simply a non-union company witch hunt, I'd be a bit ticked off.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jan…

(in Fumento's “defense” — attacking the writer who “outed” him)

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=12150

IOKIYAR

We'll have to wait until this ends to learn if this was another popular scare, or if this involved getting too heady with electronic gadgetry. (Imagine if it involved X-by-wire with the 42-volt initiative of a few years ago.)

2. Dorian: Prepare for new thread — F-35 sticker shock.

I would also like to have a rundown of how many fatalities are caused by known flaws in all the different cars.

In any case I have an entirely different outlook in life because I feel that we greatly overestimate our ability to control outcomes. In my mind people greatly overweight the value of outcomes that they feel are controllable because it gives them a sense of security in their own lives. However in reality it is nearly impossible to do everything you need to to manage risk across all the areas of life, and have any time to actually live. Many explanations for bad outcomes seem so clear cut and preventable, but that's because it's using post hoc reasoning to construct a narrative and ignore the surrounding noise.

So yeah I think that Toyota should strive to fix it, but there is also a lot greater chance of getting into an accident because you haven't maintained it perfectly, get distracted, or a drunk or tired driver plows right into you without warning (which is how the vast majority of people I know that have been killed in cars have gone out). That's why I don't worry in one.

I would think the avatar was the obvious one. An actor, in makeup, as someone he is not, and not recognizable. And it had a secondary purpose as well.

As for the screen name, that was also as I alluded to part of the ironic joke on myself, taking pleasure in my own misfortune (having to leave behind my AustinRoth name at TMV) by still nonetheless being brought back from the “dead” by Dr. Frank N. Furter, my avatar.

I do have a rather warped sense of humor, as you can see!

Curious about your comment “He gave me statistics and reminded me that the hype is being badly overplayed.”

Dorian

Welcome back—as your “old self”

Thanks for the news about your daughter. We continue to wish her well. Will coment more later, but curious about your “screen name” and avatar. I always found it (and some of the comments) curious.

Care to offer some insight?

Talk to you later

Dorian

He gave me statistics and reminded me that the hype is being badly overplayed.

And he's right. I know he is. AND I love Toyotas. My first car was a Toyota — best vehicle I ever owned (prior to my current Nissan).

Nevertheless, we're renting a Ford this time around. Go figure.

I'm really sad for Toyota. I hope they can get their ship turned around. But til then…

Now that I have 'come out of the closet' (unbelievably bad pun, I know), I wanted to give you a quick update on Vicki.

She is doing very well, having returned both to school and is working a full-time job. She has also moved out to her own apartment last week with her dog and cat, and is loving being independent again, while still only being 15 miles away from us.

She is admittedly feeling some pain and discomfort from all the new activity, but it seems to be the good kind, getting unused muscles back into shape, rather than the bad kind, at least for now. She and her doctor are keeping a close eye on her hip, obviously.

She had to push her pin removal surgery off until this Christmas due to school considerations, but it all works out for the best, giving her a 6-month recovery period now between the surgery and the start of her sonography training program.

Good to be able to keep you abreast again of developments, and as always I appreciate your support for her. She is aware of all the TMV team's support, and it really makes her feel good.

AustinRoth