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Scott Roeder Murdered Dr. Tiller, But Shrinkdom Has Failed to Teach Critical ‘Heads Up’ to Public
Jan 29th, 2010 | 98 responses
Just a small two cents worth. A man or woman can be identified by their religion, their race, their politics, their work, their reading interests, the neighborhood they live in, but not by their mental state. It is the last politically correct white-out we have… not to know, not to notice mental illness in the extreme.
Are we all neurotic? Of course. But there’s a huge difference between having weeds in the garden vs raging and burning down every person and house in sight. Often over my lifetime, whether it’s Andrea Yates who drowned her five children, or various homicidal/ suicidal persons who make the big news, I often think, we have failed.
We shrinks have failed to arm the public with knowledge about who is just a person struggling along with one thing or another (weeds in the garden), and who is developing into a truly dangerous human being with all wiring of the mind connected to the heart, connected to reason, connected to spirit and soul, gone haywire.
Mr. Scott Roeder, the man found guilty of his pre-planned murder of Doctor George Tiller inside the Reformation Lutheran church, fled afterward. He was also found guilty of aggravated assault for threatening to kill two other men inside the church.
Mr. Scott Roeder claims to be a Christian supported by some Christians. Mr. Roeder admitted he murdered the Doctor, and that he had no regret or remorse. Just from another side, this: In the Christ I continue to learn all these decades, a person who murders another person can be both judged and forgiven by God.
However, it’s contingent on his true remorse and admitting he took a life wrongfully, that he be made right with the God the person claims to follow. I say this not to mock Mr. Roeder nor his Christian supporters, but rather to show the seeming disconnect of the mind in this case…
but also in the minds of many who murder others without remorse. Lack of contrition, is common in those disabled mentally. Inability to control one’s inhumane impulses. And I dont mean smoking cigarettes and having too many brews. I mean homocidal intents.
Remorse is a function of conscience. Even in war, even when one is trained to kill, and must carry out orders, many many who do so, suffer after. All manner of regrets can arise about various matters, for each soul gone to war has a conscience and is filled with love… even as they know they did what they were ordered to do, and in some cases had to do, and wanted to do, and been proud of perhaps.
But striving to get square with one’s conscience, the holding of all life precious, the steep and solid set of rights and wrongs most of us carry, seeing the inhumanity of war, can often be at the base, for instance of PTDS, later.
My sense as a shrink is that Mr. Roeder is not well, and is bolsetered behind the scenes by those who want him ‘to hold his head up high’ for what he did, to be their aegis flapping in the wind, ‘righteous man goes to prison for his wondrous beliefs.’
But in God’s sight, as I understand it with my small finite mind, God is said to see such matters differently as per Christian proscriptions. Christ is the God of Love, seeming supportive of ALL life, all sinners seen as souls yet to be awakened.
Yet, Mr. Roeder’s likely fantasy weaves in with an extremist view from Christianity that all infidels should be murdered on the spot. “Slay the Middanites,” and all that that we see in some of the old old writings.
On the other hand, I dont believe Roeder is capable of reasoning beyond obcessive thought, not from what I’ve seen him say.
People with what I think might be his set of disorders are most dangerously affected by rhetoric and harping between good and evil. Cho (Virginia Tech), and Harris and Klybold (Columbine) and many other homicidally ill persons think they are on the side of Good against Evil, and thus act to slaughter others with full belief the God of Doom or the God of Revelation, or the Black God or the Good God is on their side.
Though there are those on earth who say there is a time and place for aggression, and many of us struggle to weigh this with ethics regarding war and death of any kind, there is also a mental disorder that claims that individuals and groups are evil and only oneself is good. And that all whom are evil must be physically eradicated. It is an extremely sad but also incredibly dangerous mental disorder.
It’s called paranoid schizophrenia. In the extreme of this psychosis, a person many be able to half-well groom themselves and sometimes hold jobs at least intermittantly, and sometimes marry for a time and have children.
But a person suffering from this disorder creates extremely disturbed relationships wherever they go, for they break into psychotic thoughts and make damaging and menacing moves toward others, often in later phrases, escalating to uncontained violence.
Persons with this diagnosis (and not saying this is what Mr. Roeder has, but many of its symptoms appear to be in and with him) are often homicidal and often suicidal as well. Cho and Eric Harris suffered, in my opinion, from this particular disorder also. The obsessive grind to it, makes the person finally desperate to act in ways ‘to kill off’ the demon.
One of the things CERTAIN about persons whose minds split into two extreme parts where all is defined as evil/satanic and good/godly, is that they are the MOST vulnerable to violence from hearing news, rhetoric, propaganda, rabble rousing. They are the ones who decide they are being told to ‘do something to end it all.’
They are also the most vulnerable to being beaten up and/ or killed by others on the streets or at work, who have had ‘enough’ of their aggression and obcessive or violent talk. They are also the most vulnerable to walking into the river or in front of a train because of what their minds tell them is true, that in our consensual reality, is not true… such as ‘that man over there is trying to kill me; I can tell by how he is eating his hamburger.’
Over the years, there has been debate about this disorder, that perhaps to make all symptomatology available to the public means the public would misuse it, trying to self-diagnose, or worse, diagnose others who are merely being in their weird states of development, especially as teens, those states we all go through.
But each time there is a murder(s), a loss of life and the person who did the execution is found to be clearly disturbed and for long periods of time previous and many noted it a priori, but others poo-poohed the evidences consistently, instead acting as obstructionists to that person getting the critical help needed and the ongoing oversight needed…
thus, we see horrendous outcomes from those failures to notice, have real and even handed knowledge, to learn to weigh fairly, to report effectively, to help and enable help effectively, to watch over without looking away.
Disorders like these are in no way chosen by the persons who have them. They do not arise in the morning saying I will be violent and difficult today. They cannot control their thought system. The shizophrenias which contain psychotic elements are not a disease, per se. They’re a brain chemical disorder. And there are medicines that can be given to help even-out the mind and help to wall off the psychosis, especially, bringing the internal fear and rage down to a dull roar that is managable.
Some persons with this challenge do well with the medicines. Others refuse to take whatever medicines consistently, saying they want to be free, and that doctors are trying to control them.
Where the compass lies appears to be, what will most help to keep this person free, safe, alive, with a quality of life, and also keep others safe too.
____________
CODA
Just in case anyone wonders, I havent a dog in this particular fight about abortion. I’ve written several articles about abortion at TMV. I am on the side of life, which doesnt feel like ‘a side.’ It feels like an instinct.
98 Responses to “Scott Roeder Murdered Dr. Tiller, But Shrinkdom Has Failed to Teach Critical ‘Heads Up’ to Public”
I guess being an agnostic/atheist, makes this kind of thing easier for me. If someone kills, mental illness or no, he gets eye for eye treatment. This guy gets to go to wherever, in my book. A life not examined too closely is a simpler life for the simpler person- Unknown.
One thing you said brought up a question in my mind: “My sense as a shrink is that Mr. Roeder is not well, and is bolstered behind the scenes by those who want him ‘to hold his head up high’ for what he did, to be their aegis flapping in the wind, ‘righteous man goes to prison for his wondrous beliefs.’”
Question: Are people like the real and potential suicide bombers (crotch bomber) “not well”?
Excellent reflection, Dr.E. I'm not so certain the mental health field has failed to alert. My observation is a fear of reporting a possible psycho because we may be wrong. I cannot imagine anything more traumatic than accusing someone wrongfully. I rode the bus and trolley as my only means of transportation in San Diego. The number of “crazies” one sees is frightening. But are they homicidal? — Jer
My Dear Dr. E,
I find myself a bit at odds with you on this. My professional history is known at TMV, 13 years in complex captial murder litigation, 11 years as a judge.
My experience as a judge included being part of the rotation that made trips to the state hospital to evaluate mental patients for possible release. My experience in capital murder work exposed me to 40+ individuals accused of murder. No, I'm not a psychiatrist, but my observation in crossing those two paths of my professional life leads me to say that only two of the accused murderers struck me as suffering, or acting out of, psychotic episodic delusion. That's a pretty small percentage compared to the rather broad brush I think you paint in this article.
Even among serial killers, I found more of what I would guess to be sociopathology than psychotic delusion. Among “religious” killers (the two with whom I had contact) I found profound naivete resulting in the propensity to be misled and manipulated, not demonstrable mental illness.
It is, of course, entirely possible that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about or have missed your point entirely. Please educate me.
Dr PINKOLA
I for one would never try to dispute your analysis of this guy; however, I would suggest the possibility that he may not just be an unfortunate individual caught in an overwhelming disease.
History has pointed time and again to belief systems that distort the natural human conscience. Nazi Germany of course comes to mind. Whereas Hitler may well have been the paranoid/ schizophrenic you describe, the legion of Gestapo thugs that followed him learned their abhorrent behavior.
It may well be this guy is sick, what sane man does what he did? But his belief that he was saving “the unborn” also was a belief nurtured by a fundamentalist philosophy that really does separate mankind into the good and the Evil, the saved and the damned.
Killing in God's name is the touchstone of a religion's value. If your belief system requires of you to be the avenging hand of an angry God, I suggest you need a new God. The one you have now is just the Devil.
Scott Roeder was not “disabled mentally”, as the state's verdict of first degree murder shows!
[a person who murders another person can be both judged and forgiven by God.
However, it’s contingent on his true remorse and admitting he took a life wrongfully, that he be made right with the God the person claims to follow]
That is YOUR faith, not ALL faith. You do not speak for all and it is offensive when you attempt it. You are now required to apologize.
Scott Roeder did not afford Doctor Tiller with the opportunity for any “getting right with god” before he cowardly surprised and shot him unarmed and unable to defend himself within the sanctity of his Lutheran Church. Therefore no “act of contrition” has any value for Scott Roeder, except for it’s propaganda and recruitment value for finding more martyrs for the catholic pro-life cause. One can be “forgiven” given the time to confess and perform penance according to Catholics. Therefore Catholic vengeance is complete against a Lutheran whom had little opportunity to beg god for forgiveness and that the act itself was committed within a Lutheran Church, is a Catholic zealot’s unspoken special victory.
Thank-you Dr E for your thought-provoking post. A small quibble, but an important one I think, since we all know words matter. In your CODA you say, “I am on the side of life”. Well, I think we are all on the side of life, which is to say I don't know anyone who is on the side of death. The implication of your comment could be read to suggest that pro-choice is synonymous with pro-death which I'm sure wasn't your intent. More importantly though, I appreciated your thoughts on the larger subject matter.
I believe that HemmD makes good points and raises important questions having to do with the line between belief systems and some of the symptoms of mental illness (not to be confused with faulty brain chemistry, etc). His remarks reminded me of the excellent clip Nick Rivera posted recently of the Howard Zinn lecture on the the three “holy wars', which I strongly recommend for anyone who is interested in going beyond wrote attitudes about what constitutes indivivual vs societal conscience.
Father Time?
An anti-Catholic rant? I don't know if Roeder was Catholic or not & I fail to see how it could possibly matter.
What's religion got to do with this. He killed somebody, we kill him. Leave Catholics, Lutherans and Muslims out of it. A nut is a nut, unless he is a _____. (Fill in your party.)
Listen to Catholic radio around election time and you quickly understand. Roeder was seduced and as recruited by catholic radio as surely as the night turns to day.
Scott Roeder committed this murder on religious grounds and publicly stated so. Not only that, but several Catholic would be martyrs have had attempted to murder doctor Tiller several times before!
Of all the abortion doctors in the Kansas City area, why did THIS one receive so much attention? Because he is a devout Lutheran and the Catholic church hates Lutherans.
Dear Dr.E,
Just reading your post from november (about Nidal Hassan), before this one : very dense (?), deep and just analysis (in my opinion, mental disease are still a “taboo” in our societies, it 's not politically correct). “I will be violent and difficult today” made me laugh.
Reading ancients comments, I would like to apologize about the way too much familiar I adress you my first comment.
Because he is a devout Lutheran and the Catholic church hates Lutherans.”
I don't give a rat's A__. Kill the bastard and let whichever god he wants figure the rest out. Also, ban all Catholics and Lutherans from Kansas.
Precisely.
Except that Dr. E is trying to “forgive him” here in rather Catholic terminology. It’s a form of deception and I caught it.
it’s a form of deception and I caught it.”
Malaria, has a way of coming back, I agree.
You and me Duck, we can change the world.
G zus H Kee rist, that's all we need on this forum is dduck and Fathertime teaming up. What's next, DLS and Don Q? I can see right now I'll have to change my avatar to reflect a less relaxed demeanor…
A small quibble, but an important one I think, since we all know words matter. In your CODA you say, “I am on the side of life”. Well, I think we are all on the side of life, which is to say I don't know anyone who is on the side of death.
Thank you for this, JSpencer. The unavoidable, indisputable fact is that, when it comes to pregnancy, being “on the side of life” is meaningless unless you acknowledge the reality that there are TWO lives involved — therefore, “choosing life” by definition means simultaneously “choosing death.” The only realistic question then is which life is prioritized over the other: that of the unborn, developing fetus which resides inside a woman's uterus, or the woman whose uterus the unborn fetus resides in. I have no problem whatsoever stating that that particular choice can only be made and should only be made by the woman whose body is involved in the choice.
Well we know that the Catholic Church by doctrine chooses the child over the mother should there be only one choice medically. It is my opinion that they, the catholic church, is trying to force this, their doctrine, upon the entire world in this specific circumstance of political activism, in which the catholic church is involved in, world wide. Within the United states, you may as a religion express a certain morality, but to advocate it politically is in violation of national law of which I believe the catholic church is guilty of and therefore legally has already forfeit it’s tax free “religion” status.
As a citizen, I demand justice. As an American I expect protection from the Vatican, a foreign power.
There is no understanding, that has already been forfeit. Come Prof, our coalition is unstoppable. We need your wit that you so effectively sandbag.
I'll nominate that for the laugh of the day. I still say we need a guide for newbies so that they could understand why.”
OK, take it easy, as I have only recently reversed my joining MSF's party, I will reiterate that like my hero Groucho; I don't join.
Now, if you don't tell anyone, else, I will tell you why I didn't spurn FT's invitation to save the world. Whispering: Malaria sometimes makes you delusional and it's best, sort of akin to not waking a sleepwalker, to wake or contradict them. In FT's case, a shock could cause him to go off the deep end and become a Rep., or worse a banker.
Just in case my little kitty drinking a beer was lulling anyone into a false sense of complacency…
Duck, while we are whispering, are you interested in bestiality?
Duck, while we are whispering, are you interested in bestiality?”
So you are already a banker.
Great. Now I'm gonna start confusing you and mrmeangenes.
This one drinks blood, I assume.
JSpencer,
The tiger is more appropirate for this thread. Calls for the beheading of the Pope to avenge the great Catholic conspiracy responsible for Dr. Tiller's death; clamor for the state sponsored homocide of Scott Roeder; a modest abortion debate, and a kind missive from France.
But, is there anything we can do to stop the Roeders of the world, short that is of stripping the Catholic Church of its tax exempt status or engaging in the barbarism of capital punishment after the fact ? Methinks Dr. E's point was that perhaps we can better identify and treat those who are threats before they might kill (or join the Catholic Church or join the ghoulish parade of death penalty advocates). Do I have anyone's blood boiling yet in the spirit of the tiger? Use that boiling blood to tell me how we stop the carnage. Not which religion to blame or who to send to death chambers, but how to stop the carnage before it begins.
Awaiting your warm and reasoned replies.
tidbits
PS: apologies, JS. This didn't turn out to be much about the tiger.
Awaiting your warm and reasoned replies.”
As a far, far, descendant of Attila the Hun, I say lots of luck. Isn't this all just old stuff?
Sad to say, tidbit, probably not. As jkremmers pointed out, how can you tell a homicidal nut from a non-violent one?
Prof,
It may be true that it is difficult to cull the non-violent from the violent among the mentally ill. But what if we committed to providing better resources and treatment for all? Would we not treat some of the violent with the rest? And if we could thereby prevent one murder, or a dozen a year, would our efforts not have been worth it?
Our mentally ill wander the streets often homeless, almost always impoverished, vulnerable and untreated. We closed most of our institutions in the 80's on the promise that community resources would address their needs. That promise has not been kept, and we pay the price in so many ways. Meanwhile these souls wander to fend for themselves, to be victim or victimizer with few to advocate on their behalf and fewer still to listen. We could, it seems, do better.
I think that one of the lessons that has to be learned here is the dangers of demagoguing and demonizing issues, people, and groups in order to pimp for an ideology. I'm not referring to the catholic church here, but to radio and TV personalities whose jobs depend on whipping people into a frenzy by turning them against others. There is no attempt to understand or put into anything into context for those people, and they can never be wrong. There is only the finger pointing and planting of bad blood into watchers and listeners. And when something terrible happens as the result of these base appeals to millions of people, when someone finallyl goes off their nut and does something terrible, people act surprised. Surely there can be no shared responsibility! Of course not. Whwat a though! There are many excellent sources of honest, objective and useful information available, but they aren't sensational and they appeal to a more mature (not talking about age here) audience. You can all figure out the rest.
Agreed. That would, of course, require interested parties to throw away their habitual war, ignore the entrenched bureaucracies, and start designing systems from scratch. We'd probably need a lot more therapists, which means we'd need to pay them less, which means we'd need to educate them for less.
And all of that would require restarting the entire political system, so that politicians could once again care about all people, not just the rich and politically powerful.
Prof,
You said, “that would require restarting the entire political system, so that politicians could once again care about all people, not just the rich and politically powerful.”
Please stop telling the truth. It hurts too much.
Would it be too impolite to mention on whose watch those closings happened? I know there were a great many such places that closed up shop and poured people into the streets here in Michigan. More law of the jungle legislating from the compassionate conservatives I believe.
There were some mental institutions closed in Indiana, but on a more bipartisan level. It was done to save money, but there were some arguments that it just moved people from one program to another (such as prison). Again, there doesn't seem to be a coherent set of priorities or “big picture” thinking going on here.
The name John Engler (R governor) features prominently in the decisions to close instituitions here, which not only poured the mentally ill into the streets and prisons, but also removed thousands of jobs. Engler was our governor for far too long, and was another republican who inherited a thriving economy and ended up presiding over a failing one… which the next governor (a democrat) inherited.
“dduck and Fathertime teaming up. What's next, DLS and Don Q?”
Emotional, fluffy soap operas — phffft. Pro wrestling and TMV have _serious_ plots!
I personally think that governments don't have any near the power to fix economies as they would like people to think they do. I've got a really bad feeling that the current experiment in keeping the bubble inflated is going to end painfully. The current politicians will be blamed, of course, but there was obviously bipartisan consensus that propping up the money system would save the economy. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, but every past bubble has popped back down to where it started.
I share your concerns and also worry this may not end well, and of course any inevitable scapegoating will miss the mark – as it aways does. If not for all the (made in China) stimulus money it could well have gotten a lot worse a lot faster though – we'll see how much comfort that is in months and years to come. As you said earlier, there isn't enough big picture thinking, which also has to mean long-term thinking. I think politics by it's very nature is subservient to the short-term… much to the detriment of those of us who believe there is a more important directive.
To Prof E and JSpencer,
From personal experience. As a judge I helped oversee the shutting down of a facility, one level below the state hospital. It was a brutal experience. We knew the faciltiy would shut down and the date, and had to decide who should go where. Many were unprepared to transition from a very caring institutional campus. Families would plead in tears to keep them there, but it was not an option. The lucky ones transitioned into the homes of relatives and some went to community homes as a transition to being set out on their own. I cannot imagine how many did not make it, ended up homeless or imprisoned, or worse. My mind closes it out, but your comments brought it back…some of the most difficult, and no-win, decisions I ever had to make.
I'm sure all the “serious” plots are between your ears.
Sorry to bring that kind of memory back. Since the past cannot be changed, we need to concentrate on the future. I still think that there's a lot more that people can agree on, once the petty arguments are put aside and the canned choices are exposed for their inadequacy.
… maybe someday … hopefully soon.
I am new to this TMV fairly to the scene here. But someone has to cut through the molasses that sane people don,t equate as Dr.E specializes in, and to me I understand her humanity and acceptance of all human flaws that goes on underneath a person,outward persona.
Homocidal tendencies are not revealed on day to day interaction with others whom this person(mentally deficient)on some level with those in association are seen normal-because they have learned trial through error on clever deception to their intent or self conditioning to remain hidden of their real personality which they know to be in conflict with whats right. religion or no religion.
I could even say they consider themselves perfect in their judgement. While some might have chemical inbalances that lead them down the road to destruction, others ARE clear of mental disease that affect the brain by some deficit affecting their judgement of right and wrong.
Hitler is a good example of someone who can persuade the masses to his idealogy of extermination for the betterment of an end result, a manipulation when the chips are down, fear factor can cement an otherwise sane nation to some 'light at the end of the tunnel syndrome by a deranged leader.
The homeless are mostly harmless because of various illnesses that follow or preceed their fall to outcasts and isolation from society by alcohol,substance abuse lost of familey etc, you never hear of a henious crime committed by them or premeditated murder ,
To me that is the clear dividing line as to what punishment they are rendered for their differences as to be removed from the normal structure of human behavior into treatment. Misfits should receive help in a humane way to correct their condition to those trained in a healing of the mind and drugs if necessary of a chemical inbalance,which should also be verified by 'tests
Intelligent but clearly dangerous individuals to society such as the (everthing is about me) syndrome can lead to a threat to another/others should be on observation or watch before something happens that can,t be retreived or loss of lives.
Closer to the truth would be to such evil genius or narcissist self-centered interest unto oneself. such persons to my estimation when they do harm another should get capital punishment. There is no reversal to right a wrong in taking a life premeditated to my way of thinking An eye of an eye Judementshould be rendered for a homocide period.
Aficionada,
You have just received a reply from Sethsay. Please know that this is not the view of all here.
Capital punishment is a moral abomination. To kill is an act of violence, whether the killing is done by a murderer or by the government. For centuries we have killed those who violated our laws…by hanging, by firing squad, by electrocution, by gas chamber, by lethal injection. In doing so, we instill in our culture that killing is justifiable. Every murderer I have known has thought his or her killing was justified…either rationally or irrationally. When the government kills, it reinforces that mindset in its population.
As my friend Esmeralda (it's my nickname for Dr. E) reminds me from time to time, violence begets violence, though she says it more skillfully than I.
We must seek to heal and find mercy. This bloodlust for veneance must be overcome. This is my opinion, but I wanted you to know that there are those here who believe this. When Jesus was present at an execution, he turned to the executioners and said “Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.” In doing so he stopped the execution. I am not a religious man, aficionada, but I do believe there is wisdom to be found in the Bible.
tidbits
Just before one of the facilities in Pontiac, MI closed I had a dear friend who worked as a counseler with “disturbed” teenage girls in one of the units. She and her fellow workers were very committed to their patients, who it was clear to me were receiving very beneficial and personal care with their problems. Those girls often came from very dysfunctional families, so when the facilities closed I'm not sure where they would have gone, certainly to no place better. Not a pleasant topic, but as you know, an important one.
I don't know where to start, and still keep it as close to not talking to you at all as I can.
1. This story has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It has to do with opposition to abortion that is based on extreme religious fanaticism, and a belief in the efficacy and morality of violence even to the point of murder to fight what the fanatics feel is wrong or bad.
2. The tone of your comment, the fact that you gratuitously bring up the Catholic Church in a story that has nothing directly to do with the Catholic Church, and your use of inflammatory rhetoric like “worldwide conspiracy” (a slur that historically has also been used against Jews), and your description of the Vatican as a “foreign power” reeks of religious bigotry. Lord knows, I am no fan of the Catholic Church's position on abortion or any number of other social issues, but attacking a religion AS a religion is bigotry, no matter which religion it is. Extreme religiously based opposition to abortion does NOT just come from Catholics and it does not even just come from people who are religious at all (case in point: you). It's ugly and abhorrent of you to suggest it does.
3. You have a lot of nerve attacking the Catholic Church, OR ANYONE, for “choosing the child over the mother” when you have made a number of extremely absolutist and judgmental anti-abortion statements in several threads on this site.
There's more I could say, but I feel sick enough having spent spent even these many words on answering a comment from you.
But, is there anything we can do to stop the Roeders of the world, short that is of stripping the Catholic Church of its tax exempt status or engaging in the barbarism of capital punishment after the fact ?
In the interest of fairness, since I just yelled at Father_Time for this, anti-abortion and Catholic are not synonyms. Extreme Christian religious fanatics who advocate or excuse violence against abortion providers are not just Catholic. Many are from fundamentalist Protestant Christian backgrounds.
I agree wholeheartedly that the Catholic Church should be stripped of its tax-exempt status when it engages in lobbying activity to advance anti-abortion legislation in Congress, or — even more outrageously — when representatives of the Catholic Church actually partner with members of Congress to write anti-abortion legislation. But I do not believe in using “Catholic” as a synonym for “violently anti-abortion,” because it is not.
Hello there, gosh, I leave for a few hours and come back; some have been really busy. lol.
Thanks for all your comments. Most of you know I am not 'daring' as FTprojects, to speak for all. My articles, like all others at TMV are the writer's view only, unless there are block quotes from elsewhere displaying someone else's opinion.
I am a Catholic, it is true. Today, unfortunately, is not the first time, but rather somewhere in the thousands of times in my life I've been told the anti-catholic material. I am still as bewildered as I was when I first got beaten up for being a Papist as a child. I hope people will consider me as a person.
I'm sorry, I cant find quickly who mentioned my CODA about being on the side of life as an instinct, but I agree with that commenter that most all of us are… I could have perhaps been more clear. I was thinking in the main of people who think killing of any kind ought not be given deep thought and consideration. I do stand with tidbits and others as an opponent of capital punishment, meaning putting others to death. I do believe I understand the desire for killing those who kill. Even so.
I appreciate those commenters who mentioned the closing of institutions that were the only secure places of help and medications for literally hundreds of thousands now on the streets. I'm not sure I see a separation between politicos who think very ill people can somehow do fine on their own, and dangerously ill people probably 'just going through a phase.'
I agree with whomever said they fear they might make a mistake in accusing a person of an illness that is undergirded with violence. I think the idea of 'accusing or being accused' is an issue. And also, a separate issue is having knowledge about what one sees on a continuum and communicating such. For centuries, some have incarcerated people falsely and wrongly, yet I think it still is useful to consider more education about progressive deteriortive mental disorders for all.
One of the reasons I think education of the public is important…some of you know the inside stories about Columbine and yet many dont. It isnt hindsight that gives the fuller picture. The fuller picture was already fully present. But the other two factors were missing pre – massacre: serious knowledge about the progressive qualities of certain illnesses, and oversight and followup medically.
I think you all made many other points, and my mains point of the article were grasped by many of you, and thanks, I appreciate it. I will likely write more articles like this one when I see a person who is clearly not in their right mind who has done clear harm to others, and who is used as a pawn by an exploitative group. Whatever group wants to claim Mr. Roeder as savior-martyr, could, I think, do just as well without taking on an ill person to proclaim their cause. Just my .02
dr.e
I'd only say tidbits when I have been a consultant to judges, they are not trained in diagnosis and are often wanting needing consultancy to establish facts of such insofar as possible.
The matter is complicated, in my view, wrongly, by competing shrinks being hired by opposing sides, sometimes Tidbits, the water being made into pure mud with one saying yes, one saying no, and neither to my mind being an honest unbiased assessment.
Having worked with people who are so very ill mentally, I can vouch that they also have their good moments and times of near normalcy. It's what occurs when they are 'triggered' or 'stressed suddenly' that poetnetially holds the most harm toward self and others. Their assessments and reactions are not the same as yours and mine.
One way I'd put it to you, is imagine a wire on a light fixture being loose. Held one way, the light works, held another way, it fizzles. We dont know, for we cannot 'see' the actual process of coming undone that goes on in an ill person's mind, even though there are PET scans and CT scans of all kinds of brains. We still dont know exactly what goes wrong. We just see it in thought and behavior of those who suffer such internal mayhem.
Father Time ..
The article started with the phrase, “Just a small two cents worth.” If you don't not know what that phrase means, I would suggest that you look it up.
However, since I doubt you'll bother (too busy writing your biased and bigoted anti-Catholic rants me thinks) I did it for you.
The definition for “my two cents worth,” or a variant of the phrase is: a person's opinion.
(in case you need urls to insure I'm not attempting to trick ya)
http://www.yourdictionary.com/two-cents-worth
http://www.answers.com/topic/two-cents-worth
In case you are unaware of what the word “opinion” means, I looked the word up for you as well and the definition of the word “opinion” is:
1) a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind; judgment
past that one is:
2) an evaluation, impression, or estimation of the quality or worth of a person or thing
3) the formal judgment of an expert on a matter in which advice is sought
4) Law: the formal statement by a judge, court referee, etc. of the law bearing on a case
Thus, past the point of Doc saying, “Just a small two cents worth,” one should be well aware that the Doc is giving us her very own opinion on this subject.
Her opinion…
Doc did not say, “This post is factual, irrefutable…”
No…she said, “Just a small two cents worth… “
And you are demanding an apology? For a woman giving an opinion?
So FT, you believe that people have no right to voice their opinion or?
As for the rest of your anti-Catholic flaming and what looks to be, Doc bashing ..
I just think someone should let you know FT, that you are attacking a lady who works in the trenches. A lady who stands up for people who are oppressed and stepped on.
A woman who stands up to anyone and everyone who would victimize those who are “different” or “eccentric” …the dreamers…
I don't say this because I'm some doe eyed fan of Dr. Estes and I don't do pedestals or hero worship… I say this because it's true and you, FT, are attacking a woman who has taken on the bureaucratic Church and continually attempts to remind them of what the “church of spirit” is ..and where their real duty lie .. In loving and helping the people they serve.
Ongoing Estes has refused to stay quiet when people are being hurt.
She's voiced her ongoing support of gay rights, she's written about and voiced her objections to incidents of Catholic holocaust denial and she, herself, has been the target of hate mail and hate mongers because she refuses to accept the hate and is determined to try to change it.
Do you know of her work with the victims of the Columbine massacre?
What about the 911 survivors?
What about the decades of work assisting post trauma victims?
Her work in South America?
Do you know that when you write her privately to tell of your own broken heart….
She writes back with prayers and love?
And you're going to target CPE because she's a Catholic? Someone who is attempting to remind her fellow Catholics of what they're here for?
Well…all I can say is, nice WORK FT! Yeah… that's it .. Go after one of the few willing to stand up for those of us tossed out and broken and praying to God for people like her who hear our voices and willing to speak and pray for us (sarcasm intended).
If you think you're some big brave man taking on a Vatican rep, I cannot tell you how wrong you are.
I would advise you this FT…Before you go continue your rant .. you might try reading Dr. Estes' work first ..
Start with “The Church Beneath the Church” and work onward with “Warming the Stone Child” and try “The Faithful Gardner…” or “The Radiant Coat”…
You might find a healing for your own sad and angry heart.
And this is my two cents worth…
Ghost
“In midlife I found myself lost in a dark wood.” Dante Alighieri