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Split Between Progressives on Health Care Reform Continues
Dec 21st, 2009 | 26 responses
There have been a raft of point-counterpoint articles today flying back and forth between the Firedoglake crew and health care policy experts like Ezra Klein and Jonathan Cohn. Here they are, and you may want to read them in this order:
- Jane Hamsher, “10 Reasons To Kill the Senate Bill“
- Jonathan Cohn, “Don’t Kill the Bill, Cont’d“
- Igor Volsky, “Reasons Not To Kill the Senate Bill“
- Ezra Klein, “Jane Hamsher’s 10 Reasons To Kill the Bill“
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26 Responses to “Split Between Progressives on Health Care Reform Continues”
It's scary to realize that progressives might someday be the only ones this country has been us and disaster. We will be screwed.
After having gone through health care reform for the third time in my life, 73, 93 and now 09, I wonder if they will ever figure it out. A few points they still don't get. Most importantly it is not enough to be right. You still have to sell it. Your opposition doesn't care about being right or wrong. If they did they would have as bad or worse of a record of accomplishment as you have. In fact they operate best in a fact free zone. Just ask yourself on which of their big ideas of the last decade did they have the actual advantage of being right on the facts? Deregulation of the banks and financial markets? Tax cuts to balance the budget? Privatization of traditional government functions? The invasion of Iraq? Don't be afraid to chime in. I can go on like this for a long time. Just consider the recent health care debate. Death panels? Government control? Bust the budget? Assigned doctors? You can make your own list.
Progressives your opponents are wrong so often it has actually helped them. They have had to build a huge propaganda machine to sell their positions to themselves and others, to pound their talking points over and over until the most jaded of them, the ones who made the points up, actually start to believe them. This makes it easy to sell their lies.
If the progressives want to rely on the truth then it is important that they actually speak it out loud, in the public arena. And it might help if they realize exactly who a large part of their audience is. And that part doesn't read Kos or Talking Point Memos and they don't care about wonkey points of order. They only care how they will be affected, personally. And as strange as it sounds they don't really like to be made fun of or laughed at. Yes, those clueless Teabaggers actually count and deserve explanations of what is going on and why.
But please, don't let any of this brother you while you proceed to eat your young again, for the third time in my lifetime.
“a raft of point-counterpoint articles today flying back and forth between the Firedoglake crew and health care policy experts like Ezra Klein and Jonathan Cohn”
Time to step up, Kathy. Perhaps observing a local dog play area in use in your city, for example.
Merkin -
Though I oppose the current health care bill(s), I found your comments about progressives' timidity and inability to express themselves meaningfully to the broader population to be most insightful. Thank you.
????
Ok I'll bite what expertise does Ezra Klein have? Looking at his Wiki writeup i see zilch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Klein
BA in political science, has a blog, worked on Howard Dean's primary campaign, interned for the Washington Monthly, was named one of the “sexiest everyday men of 2008″ by Jezebel.com, has had some TV appearances and has written articles for some papers, writes a column on food and politics…..
So ummm…where is this healthcare expertise? All I see is a good-looking young partisan blogger who writes on food and politics.
Thanks for the links Kathy, the graphs are particularly illuminating and cut through the fog generated by the well intentioned progressives as well as the (usual) let-them-eat-cake reactionaries. I have to say, it's amusing to see someone try to dismiss a smart and well-reasoned up and comer like Klein by calling him a hack. I think I detect some envy there.
The bill is far from what we should have had in this country by now, and that knowledge has been a source of pain for many of us, but it's clear this bill is a step in the right direction nonetheless. Let the detractors posture and let the party of no squeal all they want, but pass the damned bill already.
Time to step up, Kathy. Perhaps observing a local dog play area in use in your city, for example.
DLS: What is this supposed to mean? I do not understand what the purpose of these two sentences is. Why did you write them? What do they mean?
Don't fret about it, Leonidas. The Washington Post thinks he has expertise on health policy issues, so you don't have to try to figure it out.
Edited to add: Wait a minute. I just saw… You wrote that Ezra Klein is “formerly Jewish.” What meaning do you intend to convey by that statement?
Merkin,
You and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but like tidbits, I appreciated your comments on the progressives.
If more were to pose the situation as you do, we'd have much more productive debate around here.
I have to say, it's amusing to see someone try to dismiss a smart and well-reasoned up and comer like Klein by calling him a hack. I think I detect some envy there.
I don't know what it is, really. It's just very odd. The “formerly Jewish” bit, too. I have no clue what that's about.
Kathy, don't spend too much time trying to make sense out of DLS's babbling, it's just something he lapses into every now and then… I think of it as a sort of keyboard equivalent to Tourette's syndrome.
Thats ok Fox News might by the same standard call Michelle Malkin an expert on healthcare, bet you'd love that, LOL.
Just thought you might have a biased in favor of a good looking young liberal man from a Jewish family and wish you were some years younger. =D No offense meant, sorry if it was taken. I'd equate it to if I was continually posting stuff by some young good looking Southern born blogger and over exaggerating their qualifications as an expert and you called her “formerly Southern”. or “Southern raised”. No slur was meant, I would have posted Jewish but that would have been factually inccorrect since he claims to be agnostic now according to the wiki entry.
Smart, definately, well reasoned….Hmm I'll pass on that given his recent Palinesque bit on Joe Lieberman, up and comer, I'll agree there, he is a young liberal pundit star. Envy, nope, absolutely none, I don't envy Limbaugh either and he is far more sucessful than Klein. But , perhaps I do envy Klein for one thing, his youth. To be young again…..
Anyhow, if you must know, there is one liberal blogger/columist I really am envious of….. Glenn Greenwald. He has a skill that I am in awe of, and a consistency to be admired, no hypocrisy from Greenwald, he is grade A first class.
Just thought you might have a biased in favor of a good looking young liberal man from a Jewish family
Look, I'm not going to stand here and say Ezra Klein is not good-looking, or that if I were 30 or 35 years younger, I would not totally go for him, but that does not “bias” me in favor of his health care policy positions. It's a bit insulting that you would think me as shallow as that. I've been watching the Senate proceedings on C-Span for the last couple of days, and some of those Republican senators are, shall we say, “fair of face and form,” but I still despise their politics.
I would have posted Jewish but that would have been factually inccorrect since he claims to be agnostic now according to the wiki entry.
Well, no, it would not have been factually incorrect. A Jewish person is Jewish regardless of whether they believe in God or not. The two are not the same. My daughter is an atheist but she is still Jewish. She is a Jewish atheist. She had her bat mtizvah when she was 12; she has Jewish parents; she's Jewish.
Why is the tax on high-end insurance some union members get is such a bad thing with everything else ? The AFL-CIO should get their priorities right if they want to be the moral voice for labor and not just piecemeal choose the things they like in the plan and condemn anything they don't like.
http://www.topnflnews.com/
Fair enough, but do realize that young attractive people are often found in sales quite a bit for that very reason. Good looks will open some doors and give people an extra subconscious nudge. I like to think I'm immune to it too, and it certainly wouldn't radically alter my views, but it might make us all a tad more keen on someone we already pretty much agreed with. Sorry if you took it to mean I thought you could be radically changed in position by such a factor, but take the compliment side of it as well, that while you may be older, there maybe a youthful spark to be found from time to time =D.
Thanks for the correction, I didn't realize that the Jewish belief differed from the Christian one in this regard, and the religion of the parents were the determining factor and not that of the person themself. My bad, thanks for the educational explanation.
So now you're suggesting that Klein is the leftward equivalent of Malkin?? That only works if you close your eyes and spin around five times real fast.
That said, I will agree with you on Greenwald.
Yes.
Good looking…..check
Young…..check
Intelligent…..check
Hyper partisan….check
successful….check
Any more questions?
Agreed.
Kathy –
So many of your progressive pals are simply being silly. Both contingents share the blame for this. On one side are the tantrum-throwers (some of whom are still resentful that we didn't get instant Medicare for everybody, or “single-payer,” already, and who probably wanted abolution of credit card debt, too). On the other hand are the latecomers who are becoming increasingly pathetic in trying so hard to rationalize what is obvious (even without admitting crucial details) — that the Dems bungled this, and have been struggling to craft at least some kind of legislation that achieves at least some of what they want. There is no need for them to waste so many words and behave so pathetically about the obvious.
So I see the advice to Progressives is to dumb down their arguments so the tea bag protesters get their argument. How do you hold rational discourse with those who see death panels and the end of medicare in this proposal.
I do see the success that the right has received in producing completely ridiculous charges sans the benefit of facts to convince the ignorant of fallacious beliefs. I guess the progressives need to show how the GOP kills babies and backs non-Americans for president. Oh right, those have already been used.
Fair enough, but do realize that young attractive people are often found in sales quite a bit for that very reason. Good looks will open some doors and give people an extra subconscious nudge.
Oh, I agree. I think that's unquestionably true. I would add that I think there is also a subtle interplay in the phenomenon of good looks opening doors in that part of it may be a confidence factor; i.e., other people will more willingly listen to and perhaps agree with a good-looking person, but it's also true that being good-lucking (assuming the person is aware of their good looks, which some aren't — and of course I mean just being matter-of-factly aware, not conceited) is likely to increase a person's self-confidence, and self-confidence is persuasive in and of itself.
Thanks for the correction, I didn't realize that the Jewish belief differed from the Christian one in this regard, and the religion of the parents were the determining factor and not that of the person themself. My bad, thanks for the educational explanation.
Thank YOU for being open to my explanation. I really, really, appreciate that.
And I agree with you on all three.
Malkin is the ultimate proof of the adage that beauty is only skin-deep.
I'll admit that I haven't kept up on the health care bill as much as I should have, as a voting citizen and all. I've just gone through the semester from hell abroad… Which, as a student about to graduate, brings me to the fact that I'm poor. Which is why I'm bothered when Erza Klein rebuts Jane Hamsher with points like this:
But here's the catch: So long as insurance won't cost more than 8 percent of your monthly income, you have to buy into the system.
Uh, I don't know if Ezra has friends who are, well, poor, but a lot of us can't afford to spend 8 percent of our income on things other than rent, food, car loan payments, and car insurance. I'll have student loan payments added to that list come 7-8 months from now. I surely hope the government will subsidize a lot of this health care cost I'll be responsible for if the bill passes — otherwise, I'll either have to sell my car (at a loss) or live in a cardboard box. I know there are progressives out there who claim that Medicare wasn't great to begin with, and years of reform were needed to improve it; therefore we should pass a health care bill that isn't great to begin with, but… But come on! When LBJ signed the medicare bill in the 1960s, he wasn't asking elderly people to choose between necessities. This is getting ridiculous. When did we go from having a public option paid for by a decrease in health care costs to expecting poor Americans to pay out the ass?
I surely hope the government will subsidize a lot of this health care cost I'll be responsible for if the bill passes — otherwise, I'll either have to sell my car (at a loss) or live in a cardboard box.
I hear ya, Adam (having been there myself). I couldn't make my car payments or pay the insurance, either. But fortunately, it was repossessed before I had to worry about selling it.
By the way, does your line about having completed your semester mean that you're home yet? I hope so!
Almost home. I'm flying home tonight, as long as the weather and British Airways cabin workers — who were threatening a Christmas strike until Brit courts slapped them down — are willing. Then I complete an online course, get my degree, then cross my fingers with the job hunt.
I'll be thinking good, positive thoughts for you, Adam.