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Afghanistan: The “Dithering” Ends. The Soldiering Begins.

West Point

Tuesday night, after months of careful deliberation—some have called it “dithering,” Gen. McChrystal recently called it a “thoughtful process”— President Obama will, before an audience of resplendent cadets at storied West Point, announce to the nation how many additional American troops will be sent to fight in Afghanistan.

It is expected that the President will call for a phased deployment of between 30,000 and 35,000 new troops to Afghanistan over the next 12 to 18 months.

Such decisions on numbers, so-called “surges,” were made routinely and almost cavalierly by the previous administration for the war in Iraq, while at the same time failing to provide focus, material and human resources to the war in Afghanistan.

President Obama’s deliberations and decisions, however, have gone far beyond just numbers.

We understand that his announcement will include a clear rationale for what America is doing in Afghanistan, clear goals, performance targets and target dates, a clear strategy to achieve those goals and targets, and “exit ramps”: How to ultimately get our troops out—something that has recently proven much more difficult than how to place our troops in harm’s way. America deserves nothing less.

It is also expected that the president will outline political reforms, anti-corruption measures and demand a much more intensive and earnest participation and commitment in and by Afghanistan in their own self-defense. Also, that he will emphasize what he sees as the obligations and roles of our international partners in this joint effort. America expects nothing less from Afghanistan and from our allies.

No doubt, the sniping from his detractors on the far right will continue unabated. However, 10 months into his presidency, Mr. Obama should have developed the thick skin and the skills to let such attacks suffer the ignominy they deserve.

Some will continue to quibble over what the precise number of additional troops we commit to Afghanistan should be: less than 30,000; more than 50,000; 80,000; none…

But I believe that, to their credit, the GOP will support the Obama plan for Afghanistan, albeit perhaps reticently and conditionally.

More difficult for the president will be the stinging criticism he will surely receive from members of his own party in Congress, from Democrats and liberals in general, and especially from those on the far left who were his most ardent supporters during the presidential campaign and elections.

Anticipating his decision for a troop build-up, several prominent Democrats have already been expressing concern—opposition at times—not only about the expected escalation, but also about the significant cost and how to pay for it; about how the increased spending could adversely affect not only the party’s domestic agenda but also Obama’s own efforts to improve the U.S. economy; and about campaign promises made and perhaps not kept.

Tuesday night’s speech by the president will not stop all criticism, dispel every concern, or silence the debate.

General McChrystal, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, Admiral Mike Mullen and others are expected to appear before Congress and congressional committees to testify on the new strategy. There will be lots more hearings, editorials, speeches, commentary, debate…

America is war-weary and Americans are skeptical and divided—right down the middle—on Afghanistan. While the president has promised—and will probably promise again Tuesday—to “finish the job,” he can not guarantee success, he can not deny the additional sacrifices that will be required of our troops, and he can not hide the additional costs to the taxpayers. It all points to a tough sell, probably the toughest of his presidency, but one that the president must clinch.

Just like “Hope” and “Change” were part of Obama’s campaign slogan, he must now hope that the GOP support he may receive is neither fleeting nor calculated, and that a majority of Democrats—legislators and voters—will change their views on Afghanistan and rally behind their standard bearer, now a wartime Commander-in-Chief.

While I personally have mixed emotions about our future role in Afghanistan, my hope is that, once the inevitable additional “dithering” is done, we let the soldiering begin, giving our generals and our troops the trust they deserve and the support they need to get the job done.

I’ll be watching Tuesday night. But, more important, I’ll be watching and listening the days and weeks to come.

Image: Courtesy west-point.org

  • Leonidas
    So Obama has his staged photo op o look good, isn't that special. He adopted a "compromise" between McCrystal's medium and high risk scenarios and wants to be lauded for it. I'll pass. I'd have had more respect for him if he quietly made the decision and compromised between the medium and low risk scenarios. I can't applaud such a Rumsfeldian decision. McCrystal must feel a bit like Eric Shinseki right now after his best advice was ignored in large part.
  • ShannonL
    At least he didn't announce the surge with a "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging in the background. How can anyone on the right complain about a 35k surge in forces?!?!?! Obama is completely bucking his own party and you complain? Unreal.

    McCrystal isn't the only person with an opinion worth listening too. There is a very long list including Gates and Petraeus.
  • AKR55
    That phrase "to finish the job" chilled me. What job? What business do we have in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere in the Middle East? Bin Laden will not be found. Afghanistan has fought off foreigners for over 1000 years. I read "The Yacoubian Building" prior to going to Egypt in April. Send the book to the President, Congress, the Pentagon. The author provides a clear picture of Egypt today. Democracy is anathema to Muslims because it is the rule of the people, rather than the rule of Allah. It goes against their religion.

    As for "... we let the soldiering begin, giving our generals and our troops the trust they deserve and the support they need to get the job done." Afghans fought off Russia. The Viet Cong were not going to be beaten in the former non-war of Vietnam. They were guerrillas. That was a hopeless war from Day 1. There is no way to "get the job done" in Afghanistan.

    Why are we in Afghanistan? Why is Obama not pulling out troops?
  • DdW
    "Why are we in Afghanistan? "

    Does 9/11 ring a bell?
  • DaGoat
    Afghanistan: The “Dithering” Ends. The Soldiering Begins.

    The soldiering didn't stop while Obama was dithering, which is the main reason his dithering was inexcusable.

    As you know my first preference actually is the one supported by many on the left, which is to get out of Afghanistan as soon as practicable. Since he has neither done that nor adopted McChrystal's plan, I agree with you that Obama has left himself with a very tough sell and very vulnerable to criticism.
  • DdW
    Of course, our troops were still fighting--and dying--during the deliberations. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Thanks for noting so.

    Dorian.
  • ShannonL
    Yes, better to make a quick possibly incorrect decision, than to figure out exactly what you want to do. Had Obama made a decision in the first week of his analysis, you and yours would have said he reacted too quickly. The good thing about the word "dithering" is that it immediately shows the reader that the author is a right wing partisan.
  • DaGoat
    At least he didn't announce the surge with a "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging in the background.

    Maybe you should try comparing Obama to a good president for a change.
  • ShannonL
    Just using recent history ;)
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Uh a good president like who? How do we judge them as a group to form a consensus? What happens if almost every one of them has some moment that a large amount of us takes issue with or they have done similar or worse things, like say pull out of Lebanon like a coward? To be honest the "photo op" part of your intro was insulting to not only to Obama but every POTUS that ever spoke to any forum because guess what, since the invention of the camera they have all been photo ops. Whether by design or inspite of what you are doing they are there, so yes "photo op" you win an award but the same could be said with the exception of Nixon all the way back to at least FDR, I mean Reagan LOVED the camera. Before that though they had "press events" but its as old as elections so get over it.

    On a separate point you do realize certain private security orgs are now active in Paki right and major pressure is being excerpted on them to ensure they help get rid of something that they use as a tool against India? He may be going low at the troop figures but the man does seem to have a plan and like the last doofus I will give the plan time to work or blow up in our faces while we are still in the process of cleaning up the blowback from doofus's attempt. I think that is an apt description I think I will stop calling him Bush or the last Admin and just call him doofus, we all know it was really bad so it helps make the point that when you bring him up you are grading on atleast a slight curve.
  • dduck12
    I tell you one president that skipped a photo op, it was old "speak quietly and carry a big stick", Teddy Roosevelt. He decided NOT to accept the Nobel Peace Prize until he was out of office. Whatever his other faults, that was a great moment not photo oped.
  • Don Quijote
    Does 9/11 ring a bell?
    Most of the highjackers were Saudi, the primary planner was Egyptian and most of the planning was done in Germany, so when are we invading Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Germany?
  • DdW
    You bring up a good point, DQ, but for the wrong war.

    Yes, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis (and Osama Bin laden was a Saudi), so to pursue your train of thought, yes we should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq...

    On the other hand, the planning, the training, the financing, the moral, "religious" and political support for 9/11 was an "AlQaeda/Taliban production", conducted, guess from where? Afghanistan.

    Thanks for your comments.
  • DdW
    Thanks for reminding DG (and others) that photo-ops are equal opportunity activities by most presidents (and politicians).

    Of course, the most infamous in recent memory is the one that has already been mentioned: Bush in his macho flightsuit regalia on an aircraft carrier claiming "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq.

    Just a little bit of "research (i.e. "googling") will yield a trove of photos of, for example, Mr. Bush making important national security announcements at Service Academies, military bases, on combat ships, in military aircraft hangars, in front of troops, etc., etc. Surprise!



  • Don Quijote
    On the other hand, the planning, the training, the financing, the moral, "religious" and political support for 9/11 was an "AlQaeda/Taliban production", conducted, guess from where? Afghanistan.


    And Santa Claus lives at the North Pole...

    Al Qaeda is a predominantly Saudi organization, and it's financial, the moral, "religious" and political support is predominantly Saudi. The Taliban are nothing more than the dumb hick country cousins who got drag along for an adventure.
  • DdW
    DQ:

    Do you have some credible support for your assertions that 9/11 was a predominatly Saudi production (except, of course for the aforementioned nationality of most of the hijackers and of Bin Laden)?

    Thanks
  • DaGoat
    Uh a good president like who? How do we judge them as a group to form a consensus?

    You make good points MSF, and I don't think there is a president who was truly top notch in all areas. Most seem to have at least one Achilles heel.

    My point was it's faint praise to claim Bush was one of the worst presidents in history then turn around and defend Obama by saying he's better than Bush, er, doofus.

    There are underlying issues here that have nothing to do with partisanship. There is a very good reason for criticizing Obama for taking so long, and that is that US troops were dying under a failed strategy while Obama deliberated. I understand the counter-argument that maybe less Americans will die by virtue of Obama taking time to make the right decision, but that is a theoretical argument.

    As I said above I think Afghanistan is not winnable on a practical level, and the best course is to leave Afghanistan altogether.
  • VeratheGun
    It is absolutely astounding to me that the nimrods that espoused these two wars of choice, now have the utter gall to dog the guy who has to figure out what to do about their mess. Righties, you FAILED. You failed the American people, you failed yourselves, your ideas FAILED.

    This president now has to figure out a way to extract us from the stinky, bloody mess the right made of things while in power AND how to pay off the incredible bill for these wars, rung up on the national VISA card.

    Obama has been in power for less than one year, and he's done nothing but put out the burning oil fires Bush and the Texas Mafia left him. He has no good options left. At least we know he'll make an informed decision based on the facts, not wishful thinking and neocon fairy tales.

    Besides, we don't even know what Obama is going to say in the speech, yet. It's all speculation at this point.
  • Don Quijote
    Do you have some credible support for your assertions that 9/11 was a predominatly Saudi production (except, of course for the aforementioned nationality of most of the hijackers and of Bin Laden)?


    CFR Report on Terrorist Funding

    The report draws attention to the importance of Saudi Arabia as a source of terrorist funding:

    However, it is worth stating clearly and unambiguously what official U.S. government spokespersons have not: For years, individuals and charities based in Saudi Arabia have been the most important source of funds for al-Qaeda; and for years, Saudi officials have turned a blind eye to this problem.

    This is hardly surprising since Saudi Arabia possesses the greatest concentration of wealth in the region; Saudi nationals and charities were previously the most important sources of funds for the mujahideen; Saudi nationals have always constituted a disproportionate percentage of al-Qaeda's own membership; and al-Qaeda's political message has long focused on issues of particular interest to Saudi nationals, especially those who are disenchanted with their own government.

    It's always better to send the troublemakers abroad to cause trouble than to keep them at home to destabilize the government.
  • VeratheGun
    How's this for a non-theoretical argument: If Bush, Rummy and the boys had gotten Bin Laden in 2002, in Tora Bora, we would be long gone from Afghanistan and this entire discussion would be moot.

    Troops are dying because Bush and Rummy sent them there, ill equipped and hamstrung by their poor executive decision making. This war was poorly conceived, and seven years later, we have little to show for the blood and treasure expended.

    This travesty was begun before anyone even knew Obama's name. Yet he's the person it falls upon to resolve the situation. The architects of destruction are all safe and sound in their mansions.
  • DdW
  • DaGoat
    How's this for a non-theoretical argument: If Bush, Rummy and the boys had gotten Bin Laden in 2002, in Tora Bora, we would be long gone from Afghanistan and this entire discussion would be moot.

    I'm sorry but that's also a theoretical argument. There is no certainty what effect Bin Laden's death or capture would have had on the Taliban.

    This war was poorly conceived, and seven years later, we have little to show for the blood and treasure expended.

    I agree, and that's one reason I think we should withdraw from Afghanistan - we are probably in an unwinnable situation. Obama has been Commander-in-Chief for 10 months now, and the responsibility for our troop's presence there now lies with him, not Bush or Rumsfeld.
  • VeratheGun
    The original reason (yes, I know there were eventually many, many reasons given) for invading Afghanistan was to get Bin Laden. If, at that point, we had gotten bin Laden, the stated justification for the invasion would have been resolved. I highly doubt there would have been a subsequent troop buildup. We were out to get al Qaeda, not fight the Taliban.

    On one point we do agree--Afghanistan is essentially an unconquerable country. They have defeated through attrition any and every outside force that has ever tried to civilize them. We are merely the latest. An elementary reading of Afghani history should have told the neocons this. How did the rout of the Russians in the 1980's become so forgotten?
  • Don Quijote
    How did the rout of the Russians in the 1980's become so forgotten?

    We're Americans, history is for losers...
  • DLS
    "So Obama has his staged photo op o look good, isn't that special."

    I did not object to his taking this long to decide something like this. But the "campaign" style stuff brings indignity to it, not merely represent another example of him and his team being out of touch with the mainstream, and somehow deciding it's important to continue to manipulate public opinion on this.
  • DLS
    "'Mission Accomplished' banner"

    The embarrassment _following_ that, with the _occupation_, doesn't change the reality here, and why this ironically is a bad preceding example to use. At least that banner was displayed after nearly all pertaining to it (the war, not the occupation) was _done_.

    Obama is appearing _before_ doing something, in the hopes the public will be more accepting of it.

    A better, though you might argue oblique, example, but nevertheless more relevent to this subject and thread would be the Nobel Peace Prize award. It was awarded this year, not for having done anything, but for giving people the Hope that something or things the Committee and other lefties would to see might become more probable.

    This Obama appearance is campaign stuff and all about Feelings.
  • DaGoat

    On one point we do agree--Afghanistan is essentially an unconquerable country. They have defeated through attrition any and every outside force that has ever tried to civilize them. We are merely the latest. An elementary reading of Afghani history should have told the neocons this.


    It appears neither the neocons nor Obama understand this.
  • DLS
    "That phrase 'to finish the job' chilled me. What job?"

    That's actually a really good question to ask. (As is what is meant by "to finish," which may actually be a more direct way to answer the first question.)

    What do we want to see [us doing] in Afghanistan?
  • DLS
    "Maybe you should try comparing Obama to a good president for a change."

    "Just using recent history ;)"

    The closest hindsight might be the clearest, even if it might be misdirected.

    And no biggie, but didn't I read elsewhere that Obama should be judged independently? My own contribution there (on the other thread -- where I put Bush in the fourth or fifth quintile, heading for fifth the longer history adds to our group of Presidents) was that Obama should be considered (also, in addition to on an "absolute" basis) in comparison to the entire field. So far, I don't think he's especially better or worse than anyone typical, i.e., that he's about as expected. You and others may believe he took too long to make a decision; I disagree, and believe taking his time was merited, because there is no good (appealing) decision that probably could possibly be made.
  • DLS
    "Teddy Roosevelt"

    [applause]

    Yesterday I needed something, quickly, to pick up to read later, and I swung by a used book store (a.k.a. gold mine) and got a paperback copy of "The Free Citizen" ("A Summons to Service of the Democratic Ideal," selections from his writings and stories from his record). Plenty of good reading.
  • DLS
    The real issues Obama faces also include where to direct our efforts, in Afghanistan itself versus in Pakistan. We have to tread lightly in Pakistan (for reasons similar to why we go gently on the Saudis, Don Q. -- we don't like the government, but the likely alternative, if the government fell, would be worse.)

    Regarding the Saudis:

    "It's always better to send the troublemakers abroad to cause trouble than to keep them at home to destabilize the government."

    1. That works for economics as well as politics, and I'm surprised China hasn't sent more people here. (China probably sends surplus males already overseas in "its" sphere of influence, east Asia, which it otherwise would have to conscript and expend against, say, Taiwan.)

    2. What goes for Saudi Arabia already goes, economically and politically, also for Mexico. The US is Mexico's safety valve as well as income source (hurt as much as anyone in the States is now by the current recession), and as I've written before, it's nothing compared to the flood of refugees we'd see if Mexico had a revolution (its government fell).
  • DLS
    "How did the rout of the Russians in the 1980's become so forgotten?"

    We didn't see our mission as the same the Russians or the British had.
  • SteveK
    DLS, Let me congratulate you on your 9,000th post at TMV since they moved to disqus.

    On January 5, 2008 The Moderate Voice moved the comments to disqus. On that day DLS made the 9th comment in TMV's disqus comments.

    In the 694 days since then you have made 9,000 comments (13 things to say... day in... day out... no time off for good behavior) but so far you haven't "liked" a single comment made by anyone else.

    Maybe you'll appreciate someone else's opinion in the next 694 days... But then again, probably not.

    Edit: [sigh]
  • JeffersonDavis
    This isn't just to you Shannon. This is to everyone....

    Can we please make a pact between all members present that we won't bring up George W. Bush anymore when we are discussing someone other than George W. Bush.?

    It's been a year since he was president. Let's all move on. When a question is asked about President Obama's policies, let's not sidestep the question and point to GW Bush's policies. He is no longer President. President Obama is a big boy, and can stand on his own merits now.

    Is it agreed?


    EDIT TO ADD: I personally think President Obama did the right thing taking his time on the Afghanistan request. We need a whole new tactic in Afghanistan. McCrystal's plan of throwing people at the problem is typical Army crap and will do nothing but increase the American death-toll. If Obama announces a different strategy with troops to carry it out, I'll be pleased. If not, then it was nothing but dithering all along.





  • DLS
    "but so far you haven't "liked" a single comment made by anyone else"

    I let the text I enter say that, rather than press "Like" or "Flag," or (as you should be able to tell) "Reply" (which I have almost never used, either). I also have often avoided inserting tags since going to Disqus.

    Simplicity has its place, but so does elaboration. The text I write says, and says much more than, Like or Don't Like, and you shouldn't make a mistaken inference from the lack of my choosing to operate such features.
  • shannonlee
    As long as Obama's policy decisions involve cleaning up the mess that was GWB, we can't leave Bush out of it. And it isn't like Clinton's name isn't still being thrown around by the conservative at TMV.

    So...say when it comes to health care...sure, Bush's name should never come up.
  • JeffersonDavis
    "As long as Obama's policy decisions involve cleaning up the mess that was GWB, we can't leave Bush out of it. "

    You say "cleaning up Bush's mess" when it pertains to bad things. But you say nothing when he continues Bush policies (bank bailouts, Afghanistan, etc). Let's say I think Obama is showing himself on television too much. A liberal, instead of addressing that issue, may say something about Bush being on TV too.

    Let me give you some examples:
    Leonidas: "So Obama has his staged photo op o look good, isn't that special. "
    ShannonL: "At least he didn't announce the surge with a "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging in the background."

    DaGoat: I wouldn't describe it as "nothing", I would describe it as "poor" (describing Obama's first term)
    Kathy Kattenburg: "Really? How would you describe what GWB accomplished in his first year?"


    Do you see my point?
    If I were asked a question about ANY president, I'd answer it straight off, without trying to politicize it with a throwback to any other president, unless historical example is needed to show precedence.

    Instead of taking the criticism or refuting it... both examples above simply discount it and throw you back to GW Bush. "what about what George Bush did" is really not a valid answer to a question or a criticism of Obama.
  • HSR0601
    The fate of America lies in the direction of money, namely, war or job. The existing economic crisis facing world might be a prelude to another great depression fueled by a wrong and irrevocable choice, from the previous object lessons.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    Thats why I think we should call Bush Doofus and not pretend he was a normal president. I do reserve the right to change it back to Bush though if the GOP elects someone scary to run against Obama, until then though Doofus works for me.
  • SteveK
    If it hadn't been so disastrous to OUR country... OUR nation the suggestion to stop talking about George W. Bush would be hilarious.

    Stop talking about the man that took the United States to a unnecessary preemptive war that has cost us well over a trillion dollars ($1,000,000,000,000.00) and over 5000 American and half a million (500,000) Iraqi lives?

    Stop talking about the man that cut taxes while allowing the deregulation of the financial marketplace depriving the government over a trillion ($1,000,000,000,000) much needed revenue?

    Stop talking about the man that tried to dismantle civil rights?

    The United States is on the brink of financial ruin because of a combination of the policies brought on this nation by the eight year debacle called the George W. Bush Administration. Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Alberto Gonzales, Carl Rove, etc. etc.

    So those who don't like the idea of looking into this travesty, don't seem to see any value of learning from past mistakes are going to be disappointed.... I'm honestly wonder about the motives of those who seem to thing it a good idea.
  • spirasol
    I don't agree that Bush's name shouldn't be mentioned. To the extent that his policies are in place, and the disastrous ramifications play out, why shouldn't he be held accountable. Actually if the POTUS decided to do what the country seemed to want him to do --- which was to expose and prosecute-- then he would be all the rage for a while and fall back. But the people have no recourse and continue to live through his policies.......so why not say so.

    As for Obama endorsing Bush's policies -- it is worrisome and he will pay a price unless he manages to balance things out. We sure had had enough of ol Georgie......
  • ProfElwood
    Domestically, Obama is a continuation of Bush, but better polished.
  • shannonlee
    Well, I tend to respond to silly comments with something just as ridicules. Leo says "So Obama has his staged photo op o look good, isn't that special. " Well, that is just a silly thing to say. All Pres. do photo ops. All Presidents should be on TV. The Pres is the most important person in the country. I would rather see Obama on TV than Brittney Spears. So I came back with something just as silly...well, not well thought out...because the original comment had no thought. Seeing how Bush is recent history and that banner a sig. black eye on his presidency...it was quick to go there.

    As for continuing Bush's stupidity, yes I do comment on that. See the torture article from yesterday. I basically say Obama is just as guilty of war crimes as Bush.
  • dduck12
    You may not be reading between the lines.
  • dduck12
    You remind me of the arguments I have had with my liberal relatives (me 1, them 12). Finally, in exasperation, I once said:
    "You guys see a Bush behind every bush". At least it killed that particular tag team event.
  • SteveK
    Had to give you a "Like" for that dduck12.

    I DO read DLS's comments... Or at least I read them until I get to the first "libbie" or [sighhhhhhhhhhh] or "Please don't be illogical and overly emotional, AGAIN" or "leftie children" and then I stop. Ergo I, and from the sound of things here several others, only get the pleasure of reading about one in ten of his posts. :-)
  • dduck12
    "Like, I don't need your stinkin like". I also think you, like most of us, don't give as much credit to viewpoints too far from our own. BTW: a lot of posters don't t use all the features either.
  • pyotr
    Please go back and learn some history. The taliban have been defeated before, very recently, in a CIA led campaign. Back when it was actually a conventional force with tanks and artillery. It isnt till we handed the mission over to NATO (mistakenly) that we began to have problems. The Viet Cong you cite? completely gutted by the US Army/Marines it never fully recovered from the media spun "victory" that was actually a defeat. It was the conventional might of the NVA that rolled into Saigon that gave us a strategic/political loss. Prior to that, the NVA couldnt prevail against the US military. General Giap had to wait till Nixon pulled out combat troops.
  • redbus
    It is absolutely astounding to me that the nimrods that espoused these two wars of choice, now have the utter gall to dog the guy who has to figure out what to do about their mess.


    You can say that with a straight face, VeratheGun? I'll grant you that Iraq was dubious, but even Senator Obama during the campaign never once criticized President Bush for going into Afghanistan. His criticism (as you'll recall) was that the administration got distracted from Afghanistan by invading Iraq. So - by Obama's read - the legitimate war (Afghanistan) was hamstrung by the dubious one. That's one war of choice, not two.
  • JeffersonDavis
    "why shouldn't he be held accountable"

    Because he is not accountable any more. Obama is now the accountable one. All presidents have to deal with both good and bad ramifications from presidents before them. As far as Afghanistan goes, a bipartisan Congress approved it. Their Intelligence committee approved the intel, and the American people (for the most part) were behind the invasion THEN.

    Obama has to deal with policies put in place during Nixon, Carter, FDR, Reagan, Clinton, and now Bush. All we can do now is to see how he handles what he's been given. I held Bush and every other President up to the same criteria. I discounted those Reagan supporters that blamed everything on Carter, and those Bush supporters that blamed the Al Quaida mess on Clinton. It is totally unproductive for any party to keep pointing back to the "other guy".
  • JeffersonDavis
    I got ya, Shannon. You are actually one of the better ones out there not to continually throw the "look at Bush" comments out there.

    I don't agree about the war crimes for either president though. Waterboarding and most of the other methods were approved by law at the time. If anything it should be handled as individual counts against the Geneva Convention. Because no matter how the Johnny Cochran types out there dance around the subject, waterboarding and the like are against the Geneva Convention - a code all American warriors adhere to.
  • JeffersonDavis
    What features, dduck?

    Am I missing something?
  • spirasol
    I don't know how you can close one eye and still look out the other, and
    speak out one side and not the other of your mouth. Yes all the
    approvals were in place........HOWEVER based on lies, told by the
    highest officials in the land AND we are still paying in blood and loot
    and will continue to do so for months if not years to come. And yes
    there are policies that come out of the center world of nothing politics
    that traverse many presidents.............so what, if people dies, if
    laws were broken............What would the center right say about
    forgiving lawbreakers that took people's lives, stole a lot of
    money..............forgive and forget, heh? And Bush is a special case,
    no one, NO ONE compares to him. Why in the world would anyone want to
    set themselves up, without being on the payroll, as a protectorate and
    apologist for GW Bush? You must think you are being fair......you're not!
  • JeffersonDavis
    I'm not closing one eye and looking out the other, Spriasol.

    I'm not naive and I know everything that went down prior to our invading Iraq.

    But we are not talking about IRAQ! We are talking about AFGHANISTAN.

    There were no lies leading up to Afghanistan. It was plain and simple. Terrorist resources in Afghanistan directly lead to an Al Quaida attack on September 11.

    So don't talk to me about lies and "illegal wars". Save that for the Iraq debate. There were many like you that were attacking FDR for having pre-knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack but decided not to act on it to get us into the war. I don't buy that garbage any more than I buy the assertion that President Bush lied to the American people about WMDs in Iraq. As I've stated many times, I have personally SEEN WMDs in Iraq with my own eyes. But I digress.....

    My point stands that all Presidents deal with past decisions. Get over it.
    And there's no love lost between me and George W. Bush. I had many problems with his administration. But I felt confident as a soldier while he was Commander-in-Chief. The man had his pluses as well. I'm not an apoligist, merely a person who refuses to see him as totally evil as you do.
  • dduck12
    I meant the "Like' button. And, I don't know how to make those nice shaded boxes instead of using quotes.
    Why not a BS button?
  • dduck12
    The features was for stevek. My reply to you was about too many Bushes.
  • dduck12
    A Bush behind every bush.
  • DdW
    " I have personally SEEN WMDs in Iraq with my own eyes. But I digress....."

    That sounds like an extremely interesting experience, J.D. Could you share with us?

    And I am not being fictitious or disigenuous, I am sure most of our readers would be fascinated by it, too.

    How about a Guest Voice on this experience? I am sure Joe G. would be glad to have you

    Thanks

    Dorian,
  • SteveK
    Dorian wrote: "... I am sure most of our readers would be fascinated by it, too."
    As would the UN Weapons Inspector... Donald Rumsfeld... Dick Cheney... Oh, and George W. Bush, too.

    EDIT: With all the talk about disqus features... a 'fact check' button would be nice, too.
  • JeffersonDavis
    I can only say what I "can" say about the issue. What I am allowed to say is this:

    There's really no revelation to the WMD question in Iraq. Most of the WMDs found since 2003 have been documented, but not publised heavily for reasons beyond my comprehension.
    Thos items found are mostly weaponized nerve/blister/blood agent in gaseous form. We have found literally tons of the stuff. The more dubious WMD's made their way to Syria in the months leading up to our invasion. The stuff we keep finding is the older stuff that he used on the Kurds.

    During a visit to my alma mater, General Georges Sada, Hussein's #2 guy (Air Force), offered convincing arguments and illustrations proving that he did, indeed, witness the convoys of WMDs going into Syria - along with gold, top scientists, etc.

    As I said, this is not really new data. I cannot comment on individual discoveries or caches.
  • JeffersonDavis
    "As would the UN Weapons Inspector... Donald Rumsfeld... Dick Cheney... Oh, and George W. Bush, too."

    They already knew and know about all of this - as does President Obama. You don't hold the highest office in the land without access to most of the information. A deal with Syria was most likely reached as to keep the stuff out of Hezzbola's hands - but I have no way of proving/disproving that theory.
  • SteveK
    comment removed
  • JeffersonDavis
    What did I say that amused you so much, Steve?
  • SteveK
    Just about everything you say JD.

    WMD's in Iraq
    A self proclaimed democrat (small 'd' intentional) who's every remark is contrary to everything Democrats stand for.
    God fearing Christian that goes against everything Christianity stands for.
    etc. etc.etc.

    I stopped replying to you several weeks ago and would appreciate it if you would do the same.

    Best regards, SteveK
  • JeffersonDavis
    "A self proclaimed democrat (small 'd' intentional) who's every remark is contrary to everything Democrats stand for."

    Did you actually SEE what you just wrote? Did you even think about that statement?

    I am not your type of democrat. I am a Democrat the way that democrats USED to be prior to the invasion of the social liberals and eco-biased "scientists".

    I stand strongly behind organized labor - not the politcal powerhouse national unions, but the actual local unions and laborers. I stand against unfettered and unchecked corporate political and economic domination. Simply put, I* am a Jefferson Democrat. You and your kind are neo-communists who want America to be transformed into a Euro-socialist state.

    You, sir, are the imposter here. Not me.
  • SteveK
    comment (and all future comments) ignored
  • JeffersonDavis
    "comment (and all future comments) ignored"

    Ahhh. The ostrich approach. Let me know how that works out for ya!
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