First, you wrote, “More and more people are beginning to see Israel as
the major obstacle, not the only obstacle, but a major one.” Ehhh I don't know if I believe this. But in part, it's because I never DIDN'T see Israel as a major obstacle. I mean, all these parties are – they match each other well that way. They are, after all, ancestral brothers.

“The opposition should be as loyal and dedicated.” You know, that is something that I agree with 1000% – it's why I work on and support women getting into political office, regardless of party or ideological background, so long as they show loyalty, dedication and integrity to listening, debating, working to resolve. Not just hearing their voice and seeing their name and their photo.

“As for S. Palin, she's just an excuse to talk, that's all.” Now THAT has got to be nearly THE best comment in this entire thread!

Have a great Thanksgiving.

Ok – yes – I understand what you wrote here:

“I think that the mention of the word “anti-Semitic” seems to close down conversation on the topic or dismissed out of hand, instead of being one of the aspects considered and talked through. For example: what if the charges of anti-Semitism against Obama's aides are valid, and might we be able to tell? How might that affect policy, and what kind of foreign policies would we expect?”

The only thing I'd add is that 1) some people like to reinforce what they see as a difference between calling someone a racist and saying that something is racist. I think that's worth thinking about. To tell someone that you think they ARE anti-Semitic versus telling something that what they've just SAID is anti-Semitic (or what they've just done) also could be seen as two different things. It's a bit like being taught, as a parent, to never tell your child, “Bad boy!” but rather “you are not bad, but what you did was a bad thing.”

Do you know what I mean?

Now, as far as being a conversation stopper, I think that that will be the case if people don't know what they're saying – and a lot of peopl DON'T know what they are saying and so they do in fact stop talking once 1) in their mind, someone is a racist or is anti-Semitic and 2) they go ahead and say that. But frankly, I've seen this and I've had this happen in conversations with people on the right or far right, more than with people on the left. But that's my experience.

I think if you watch the video I linked to above, you'll see a fascinating exchange between the J Street guy, whose org. is left of mainstream Judaism (though not necessarily out of the mainstream, unlike what AIPAC wants people to think – I definitely disagree w/AIPAC on that opinion) and the AJC exec dir. who very aptly represents pretty much exactly how I approach the dilemmas related to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Middle East etc.

Wow – I hate to admit this but it's surprising me that we could have such a long thread about such rich topics when all I was doing was pointing out how little real knowledge I believe Sarah Palin possesses!

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0911/20/…

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.5615897…

And Sarah Palin would be wise, if she wants to be the head of this major superpower, to research and understand more facets to the “flocking” of Jews.

As for our areas of disagreement, you clearly have a position that does not include facts I believe are relevant. I'm not expressing any lack of empathy for the individuals who live in Gaza or the West Bank – to the contrary. I've written multiple times, here and elsewhere, that I was the volunteer in Israel most likely to go pull a Tianamen Square moment and stand in front of Israeli tanks going into Gaza (tho I was in Israel before Tianamen).

But all parties must be held accountable and I think you let the people of Gaza, and especially the ones who hold the money and the power, off way too easily and are not giving due understanding to the residents in Israel proper, which includes over 1 million Arabs – many Palestinians who have chosen to live inside Israel.

Regardless, if understanding and knowledge is gained here, that's an accomplishment.

What most Americans seem to forget is that anti-semitism applies to hatred of Arab peoples as well. They, too, are Semitic peoples. Far too many people make the mistake of applying it only to Jews.

So you are right. This is a very “semitic” argument and anti-semitism abounds on both sides.

There are many ethnic and religious groups in that area, but the biggest contention comes between the Jews and Muslims or various backgrounds. If the Jews and Muslims can come to some sort of agreement along the lines you laid out, that would be truly amazing. I pray it will come to pass.

The biggest reason I even mention that Israel occupies Palestinian lands is to confront those individuals who assert that Jews are God's chosen people and that they are divinely destined for that land in fulfillment of God's promise. There are many here in America that put forth that arguement.

Well, this stems from my thought, that the bottom line is that the rockets stop firing. It is the result we are interested in. Anything else suggests a larger agenda with nation shaping occuring according to Israeli notions of what a neighbor state should look like. How it gets done should not be so important. If Israelis want to control all manner of infrastucture, democratic results, who and what to train their people to do. This to me sounds like the voice of a parent unwilling to let their son/daughter make the inevitable mistakes toward growth/autonomy. From the opposing perspective (which we will likely never hear simply because the Palestinians hold so little power), what might a Palestinian say about Israel as a partner for peace, especially at this late stage (government by ultra right backed by increasingly religious overtones/continued theft of land/etc, etc.)? I don't like my own analogy for it shows an adolescent rebelling against an over controlling father. If that is the case than I would rather prefer a one state solution where Israel would be forced to deal with internal unrest and the competing needs of its populace with an acceptance of a multicultural state with a mandate to undo previously racist policies or, if that is too strong, policies that favor those of Jewish descent.
_
“and don't mention the West Bank at all- “_

I originally did say something about the West Bank but in the interest of brevity took it out, as I tend to blather. I don't know much about the West Bank except I hear it is a very rich track of land, Palestinians are told to move, their homes are bulldozed, and settlers move in. Protesters are sometimes mortally wounded. Netanyahu refuses to stop settlement building.

_”There must be trustworthy partners -the Gaza leadership, Hamas, has not shown themselves as trustworthy, and they use reality as a foil for why.”_

The above is a perception, one that shifts depending on who we are talking to. Shifting realities I would agree is a key component of this struggle, but not one exclusive to Hamas. When we set aside all the rhetoric, we see Israel is expanding its land base.

_”They don't treat their own minorities with any respect, women, of different religions, no one.”_

This too, feels a little over the top. Really, they respect NO ONE? Don't some Jews live among the Palestinians? It seems the whole western world wants to transform the middle east according to their image. America too, wanted to transform the savages…… nowadays, now that there is no going back, we see many books about the nobility (perhaps idealized) of the life style of the American Indian, and many Indians are returning to their old ways. And finally when a people for all I read is hell bent on creating a society where entry is based on blood descent, where anyone may have to take pledges of loyalty and suffer second class citizen status…………where are the principles of respect for minorities there?

_”The occupied territories receiving billions in aid. Why do their conditions remain as destitute as they are? How can this be?” _

Reports indicate, Israel controls entry and departure into Gaza, and many British and American aid convoys are stifled at the borders. There is plenty written about this.

_Hamas' charter and mission includes the destruction of Israel. They refuse to remove that as a goal. _

It was my impression this had changed. I thought I read somewhere that Hamas has renounced this goal, and set as a condition of peace a return to 1967 borders?
_
“How would you feel if you knew that your neighbor's raison d'etre for living was to see you die? Seriously.”_

I would feel pretty bad, but I would also have to take a look at the underlying causes for the hatred. Do they hate me for my skin color? Do they hate me for the color of my eyes? Do they hate me for my beliefs? Do they hate for my behavior? Do I play any role in the hatred directed at me? Am I just an innocent in life who is totally undeserving of this awful behavior (victim consciousness), or do I play a roll, what are the shadow sides of the behavior of my ancestors?

If you look at the underlying causes for the plight of the black man in the USA, it took a long time for the slave holders to begin to understand the humanity of these people.

_”I don't know what the solution is to that. But I do know that Israel is a country with more than 1 million Israeli Arabs and that those Arabs – Christian, Druze, Muslim – have repeatedly said that they do not want to live under Palestinian rule. Is it any wonder?”_

Conditons being what they are, with Palestine in near total destruction on the one hand and a repressive self serving government at war with Palestine, What would they say……are they free to say?

_And I also go back to how the Arab nations fail the Palestinians anyday.
_
There we may have some point of agreement but it is also a place where I am most ignorant.

Thank you again for listening and expressing with candor. It would appear when we pull back the veil there is much to disagree about, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

So – here are the things you wrote in your comment that standout for me:

I expect the rockets Hamas and other groups fire to stop.

The current residents of Gaza are living in subhuman conditions, trapped and confined, likely shell shocked and traumatized………..I don't know what I would say to them that would make any sense to
them…………but I don't know how much more the human soul can endure…… I think kindness, supplies, infrastructure, schools……..??????

Palestinian weaponry though capable of exacting harm, is crude or has been anyway with no accuracy.

If the Palestinians promised to seek peace and stop avenging the perceived theft of their land–
would that be enough? After tracking this for a few years it is hard to believe that they
haven't come across a combination of assurances that would please Israel.

Can Israel go on fighting a perpetual war without bringing something toxic down on themselves.

I believe the occupation has to stop and I mean not piecemeal, but to give back all control of air/sea/correct borders, etc. I expect that the only chance for peace in Israel-Palestine and in the middle east is if these issues are resolved.

There is a link between the long suffering plight of the Palestinians and middle eastern anger/hatred/rhetoric toward Israel and Israeli fear of attack.

You really only place one expectation on the Gaza residents (and don't mention the West Bank at all but that's okay – they definitely distinguish themselves in numerous ways so I'm going with what you've written for now): that they stop lobbing rockets.

That's it. You don't talk about them training, recruiting, electing and supporting leaders who will be partners in the efforts you say you want to see Israel pursue. There must be trustworthy partners – the Gaza leadership, Hamas, has not shown themselves as trustworthy, and they use reality as a foil for why. They don't treat their own minorities with any respect, women, of different religions, no one.

The occupied territories receiving billions in aid. Why do their conditions remain as destitute as they are? How can this be?

Hamas' charter and mission includes the destruction of Israel. They refuse to remove that as a goal. How can we expect one sovereign nation to trust a political party whose platform includes their extinction?

This is not alarmist rhetoric on my part. This is in Hamas' own words.

Now – if they are the elected leaders, so be it. But then shouldn't we too face that fact and make demands?

Or do you support allowing Hamas and those who support them, wherever they may be, to retain this plank in their platform and … do what with that?

You say, would this be enough, would that be enough re: to make Israel feel secure?

How would you feel if you knew that your neighbor's raison d'etre for living was to see you die? Seriously.

I don't know what the solution is to that. But I do know that Israel is a country with more than 1 million Israeli Arabs and that those Arabs – Christian, Druze, Muslim – have repeatedly said that they do not want to live under Palestinian rule. Is it any wonder?

And I also go back to how the Arab nations fail the Palestinians anyday. Just try to get them to talk about this.

For more consideration (even tho I am NO fan of WND, I don't think I've ever linked to them!):

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_I…

Here's a great recent article that is fairly accurate in describing the Jewish orgs' alphabet soup:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126279.html

One of the main differences between myself and supporters of AIPAC is that I want to make the world a place where Jews can feel comfortable and secure anywhere, where human rights for all exist. AIPAC focuses almost exclusively on the notion that no one will ever leave us alone and so we must have Israel and have it as a Jewish state.

“So – I don't know – taboo? I don't sense it – I see more rampant use of the notion than ever before.”

Maybe I can explain better what I mean. When discussing racism of any sort, the mere mention of the word tends to shut down conversation, which I think is one of the many reasons that race relations in this country are so difficult to sort through. I'm sure, for example, that the fellow who wouldn't help you on your campaign doesn't consider himself to be anti-Semitic; heck, even Pat Buchanan doesn't consider himself to be anti-Semitic, despite his decades-long record of jaw-droppingly bigoted anti-Semitic comments. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I think that the mention of the word “anti-Semitic” seems to close down conversation on the topic or dismissed out of hand, instead of being one of the aspects considered and talked through. For example: what if the charges of anti-Semitism against Obama's aides are valid, and might we be able to tell? How might that affect policy, and what kind of foreign policies would we expect?

Again, the same should be asked anti-Islamic sentiment. I certainly think the idea of anti-Islam sentiment at the White House was ignored for far too long during the last administration.

The current residents of Gaza are living in subhuman conditions, trapped
and confined, likely shell shocked and traumatized………..I don't
know what I would say to them that would make any sense to
them…………but I don't know how much more the human soul can
endure…… I think kindness, supplies, infrastructure,
schools……..??????

I don't understand Israeli fear (so there I expose myself as one who
does not have feeling for the way things really are there). Nonetheless
I don't understand how Israel armed with nuclear weapons and the best
weapons the USA can arm her with is “frightened” or “made to feel
insecure” by a country with no standing army, no navy, and barely a
police force. Palestinian weaponry though capable of exacting harm, is
crude or has been anyway with no accuracy.

My question back to you would be the million dollar negotiation
question: What kind of security arrangement would be accepted by
Israel? If all the neighboring countries promised to acknowledge and
not attack Israel– would that be enough? If the Palestinians promised
to seek peace and stop avenging the perceived theft of their land–
would that be enough?
After tracking this for a few years it is hard to believe that they
haven't come across a combination of assurances that would please
Israel. What would be enough? One gets the sense that Israeli security
requirements are so high that perpetual occupation makes sense.

The US is finding out that sitting in two countries as an occupier is an
expensive proposition, and like the Vietnamese when we occupied there,
theirs is the higher moral position, they have something to fight
for….their freedom……..but for the American public and the American
soldier……..the moral decay is palatable. Can Israel go on fighting a
perpetual war without bringing something toxic down on themselves.

I believe the occupation has to stop and I mean not piecemeal, but to
give back all control of air/sea/correct borders, etc. I expect that
the only chance for peace in Israel-Palestine and in the middle east is
if these issues are resolved. I believe the principles of non duality
need to be considered. There is a link between the long suffering
plight of the Palestinians and middle eastern anger/hatred/rhetoric
toward Israel and Israeli fear of attack.

….and I apologise for going on and on……….it is a topic of
interest ………so to find one willing to talk about it …….is an
opportunity. Thank you if you read this far, and I will not expect an
answer though feel free if you have the time.

Then there's the idea that some theories hold that there must be enough anti-Semitism in the world in order to make all Jews believe that Israel is the only place they can find safety and then they'll all be there and another step toward the Second Coming will have been made (I just learned about that a day or two ago).

THEN there's the “we just don't like Jews anti-Semitism”, like when I was campaigning and a neighbor asked me what my faith was, I told him, Jewish, and he said, there are too many Jews in our town already – I will not help you.

THEN there's the “even George Bush was in on the Jewish uberdomination of the entire universe and they are all evil and can't be trusted” anti-Semitism. This is the flavor that says Jews are in charge of everything everywhere and that our “Christian” country is under attack and threatened by Jews – who, you all know, make up a WHOPPING 3% at maximum of the U.S. population /sarcasm.

So – I don't know – taboo? I don't sense it – I see more rampant use of the notion than ever before.

(note: I'm not implying that anti-Semitism is necessarily being expressed in any of the comments here, but just that the mere mention of the word seems to be roundly rejected as preposterous.)

So, you wrote, “In my experience, the political pulse was that the Israelis wanted no eqaul citizenship, and the Muslim Arabs wanted no place within Israel. That was well over ten years ago, however. So the reality could have changed, as you suggest.”

Well – I can't speak to the wanting or not wanting equal cit. but I was there most recently in 8/08 and spent some time in the Little Triangle and the efforts of engaging the Arab cities seemed very viable, and longterm as well.

Now – if you're speaking Muslim Arabs only, that is just one segment. There are many Christian Arabs inside Israel and the Green Line boundaries, and they are what – I think at least 10% or more in the West Bank? I'm not sure to be fair. But I do think the distinction is important.

I think you could get to agreement with many factions re: on a very objective basis, the UN screwed up. But the screw up goes way beyond and before 1948 in terms of occupation and governance in that region, wouldn't you agree?

So this is the slippery slope and why I like to refocus to the present and the future. Or else we really will feel the hopelessness descend permanently. I can't accept that – too many lives at stake.