The President can order up to a Corps size force, (three divisions), into combat any time he wishes without consulting congress. However congress has been consulted and has given their approval to fund every conflict since WWII anyway.

I don't have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?

Yes… Re-institute the draft, a LOOPHOLE FREE draft where ONLY legitimate 4Fer's were exempt.

Young men of draft age are already required to register for the draft so it would take no time to put their names in the hat and get our military up to a strength that will no longer require 4th and 5th tours of duty in a combat zone.

Those who think this is a bad idea had best go to their next “Town Hall Meeting” and tell… nay, demand that their congress person take the steps required to keep you children out of harms way. (i.e. end the pointless, unprovoked war in Iraq)

I personally believe, as stated above, that once a draft was called American would very rapidly correct the disastrous foreign policy of the Bush years and that we'd extricate ourselves from the war that Bush and Cheney knowingly mislead congress and the American people into allowing them to start. This would end the hawkish, confrontational military posturing of the last 9 years and need for a draft would be short lived… Until next time.

If you don't think it can be done and/or would rather spend time arguing over how low the President should bow then you're part of the problem… Part of the reason 'our heroes are worn out' and not part of a solution.

If I was that smart, I certainly would try to tell you and the others my ideas.
I don't have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?
I also did not personalize, you did: “You wouldn't be a registered member of the “Party of NO” would you?”

You also said: It took two rereads of you comment to realize that you've said nothing. You have offered no solutions, you simply chosen to call people who are offering one “propeller heads”

I have nothing against prop. heads, I'm asking them for ideas tgo solve this problem.
Finally, I don't think a full draft is doable (no political will) or necessarily good at this point. And I've stated, all those extra troops in a non-critcal environment could be a temptation to deploy.

The issue really is whether re-introducing a universal military draft would–when war is absolutely necessary—spread the cost and sacrifice more equitably among all Americans.

The issue really is whether, when the specter of having one's son or daughter being sent to fight in some questionable war in some far-off land, hangs over politicians and the powerful and the wealthy, as it does now over the not-so-wealthy and the not-so-powerful, we might finally begin to see the end to “wars of choice,” and to other military adventurism.

I believe that is the issue addressed by the author

Dorian de Wind 1958-1978

Well, for those with heated emotions and propensity for “creativity” in all its forms…

* * *

“I notice a lot of social engineering talk here.”

I'm not intending it (hence no redefinition of the role of the military, as I addressed earlier). The task of the military is a dirty one, and what should be a last resort, reasonably. All should share the risk, and I'm not envisioning any kind of grand role for the conscriptees (much less a civilian “national service” or “national apprenticeship” job-and-career-training-while-not-on-active-duty project), but just realizing that discipline and direction would probably be considered a good thing for the still-immature youth (prior to maturation of those frontal lobes), and yes, including those in trouble (and dropping out of school).

Only if you presuppose it's permitted to function this way, which isn't intended, as even more illogical people might claim, and in fact this possibility can be prevented. Aside from that, what else do we then do with dropouts (which by definition won't accept being “asked” to repeat their education they reject)?

I'm not; you and others are just imgaining what's convenient, for whatever “reasons.” [sigh]

I'm surprised you didn't accuse me also of “wanting” to deny education to minorities and people from low-income areas just to boost the recruitment totals. [rolling eyes]

I have. So, too, have my ancestors, all the way back to the Revolutionary War (though I was the first woman).

Thats one.

I repect your family history and have a like one myself, although I myself never served. But that is not the issue here, the issue if whether you served or have a child of drat age you'd be willing to have drafted. You did, I did not. I respect your views on this more than those who are calling for a draft with no implications for themselves or their children and who didn't themselves step up to fill this inequality gap they preach of.

P.S. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

if we don't help out the existing troops with some relief

You've yet to suggest what you think would work. How about a few suggestions in lieu of ad hominem and personal attack?

With those stipulations, there is probably no one in the leadership of the Democratic Party who has any credbility when taking about the draft because their own children never feel the impact of the Democratic Party's social engineering agenda. Image how different public education would be if Chelsea Clinton would have been getting her ass kicked everyday by a bunch of black gang bangers in public school.

It's not the president's power. It's not a power that congress grants to the president, or allows the president to do. If the entirety of congress truly thinks that it's time for war, that is their power, but they shouldn't be able to pass the buck.

“next to of course god america i
love you land of the pilgrims' and so forth oh
say can you see by the dawn's early my
country 'tis of centuries come and go
and are no more what of it we should worry
in every language even deafanddumb
thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
then shall the voice of liberty be mute?”

He spoke. And drank rapidly a glass of water

e.e.cummings – 1926

dduck12, You wouldn't be a registered member of the “Party of NO” would you?

It took two rereads of you comment to realize that it says nothing. You have offered no solutions, you simply chosen to call people who are offering one “propeller heads”. Than politely asking everyone not to state the obvious… IF the Republicans hadn't start a unjustified, unprovoked, and unnecessary war in Iraq we wouldn't be sending Americas Youth back for their fourth and fifth deployments.

I don't want to speak for the author, but from closely reading his poignant words, I venture to make the following comments:

I do not believe that the author, when calling for a universal military draft, is calling for drafting those “18-20, or younger,” or high school dropouts.

Nor do I believe that he is calling for drafting “our experienced warriors first…the ones over 50, who love nothing better than shootin' up the town for freedom's sake.”

I also don't believe that he would object to, or find it “two-faced patriotism” for those who have not served to call for a draft. In my opinion, that means that these people understand the horrors of war and the inequities involved.

I don't think the author is denying that “Serving our country voluntary is patriotic”,or that he is somehow equating “being forced to do against your will ” to patriotism.

I don't believe that one of his main objectives by calling for a draft is “forcing young Americans to fight in a war against their will.”

As a matter of fact, I am sure the author agrees that “There is nothing “patriotic” about forcing young Americans to fight in a war against their will. There is nothing “patriotic” about sending young Americans half way around the world to die.”

A reader answered:

“This is the truth. This is the real point. Applause applause to you for stating it so clearly, simply, and straightforwardly. And, I believe, that is exactly what he would like to avoid or minimize by having a military draft.”

The author said pretty much the same:

“We are sending the same men and women to theaters of combat over and over, without relent. This simply cannot continue. It harms our country to do so. It cheapens any claim to patriotism by Americans who wave flags and profess to honor “our” troops while their children will never know what it means to serve the flag of the United States. Just as their parents have never known.”

As one of our commenters said:

The “young Americans” that we [sic] have been “sending halfway around the world to die” have not been children or family of those who have sent Americas Youth to war and therefore the fools that got us into, and are keeping us involved in, this waste of life and national resource have nothing personal at stake.

Another reader asked:

“The question shouldn't be, “How do [we] ensure that Americans of all socioeconomic backgrounds equally shoulder the burden of going to war?”

The question should be, “How do we create the conditions in which no American has to be shoulder the burden of war?”

And he answers as follows:

“The answer, of course, is to change our foreign policy. Our government has spent the last sixty years pursuing a militaristic foreign policy–spending more money on our military than the next ten nations combined and installing more than seven hundred military bases in more than one hundred twenty countries around the world. And for what? Are we safer because of it? Are our basic freedoms made more secure by our military adventurism?”

I agree with the reader. However, if the politicians and others who we rely on for our foreign policy and our resulting defense posture know that their sons and daughters, their grandchildren can be called upon to fight the wars resulting out of their foreign policy (because of a universal draft), I think we might start to approach the conditions implied by the reader's question of “How do we create the conditions in which no American has to be shoulder the burden of war?”

I believe that the author might agree with the following sentiments expressed by other readers (I know that I do):

“We have more than a disconnect between people who serve in the armed forces and people who don't. We have a disconnect as well between people and their country…. and more specifically, between people who expect something of their country. Far too many of them expect something for nothing. I suspect instituting a mandatory 2 year service policy would level the playing field considerably in a number of ways”

“One of the reasons that the draft was suspended was that the deferments of the children of the politically and financially connected were starting to being scrutinized more closely (i.e. – Cheney's five deferments) so they shut it down.”

“Now fast forward forty years and we find ourselves in another immoral enterprise that was knowingly started under false pretenses by men who hadn't served in the military AND still there are some on the right who seem to worry more about the qualifications of those calling for a draft then those who took us to war and wasted so much of this countries assets in both lifeblood and financial stability”

“The “young Americans” that we [sic] have been “sending halfway around the world to die” have not been children or family of those who have sent Americas Youth to war and therefore the fools that got us into, and are keeping us involved in, this waste of life and national resource have nothing personal at stake,”

“If a “loophole free” draft were to be instituted these unprovoked wars would end long before the first “chicken-hawks” son or daughter set foot in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I don’t think it would take long for a 2010 version of a Truman Commission to be formed either.”

<BR”I know this is stating the obvious by now, and is echoing other comments, but just to be clear, I see the main advantage of having a draft (one which would force all levels of society onto a common field of sacrifice) as not just about fairness and sharing the load, but even more importantly as a device that would force people to think (to really think, not just react) about the possible consequences of any war – in a way that goes much, much deeper than party, ideology, or any feelings inspired by any popular pseudo patriotic rhetoric. Think of it as a tool to kick brains and hearts into a higher function, a function that would give us a greater potential to avoid unnecessary wars in the first place.”

Someone said “I pray that my sons are never drafted.”

Someone else said:

“How many of you here have sons or daughters who are the of the age that they could be drafted to serve in the military? And as a follow up, if your son or daughter were drafted to go off and fight in a war they didn't wish to fight in, would you still support the draft?

I truly question have genuine some of you are in supporting the draft. How many of your own family members are you willing to risk in order to have a military draft?

These are people's lives we're talking about. Don't think for one moment that just because were to have a military draft, that our future congressmen/women, senators, and presidents would suddenly be reluctant to wage unnecessary war. You're assuming that politicians will suddenly start acting rationally, and that's not likely to happen.”

And someone answered:

“That's why the draft is so necessary… Without fathers and mothers worrying about their children, the monkeys driving this insane “industrial military complex” would keep the world in perpetual conflict… Don't you see this”

I agree. No father or mother wants to see his or her son or daughter drafted and “go off and fight a war” and perhaps never return

But, do we honestly think that those fathers and mothers of those sons and daughters who bravely volunteer don't have the same fears as those who don't want their sons or daughters drafted?

Do we honestly think that the pain of losing a son or daughter to war is any less because he or she volunteered?

So, why don't we try to make it so that fewer Moms and Dads will have to face those horrible prospects, by making military adventures, such as Iraq, less likely, by making the sons and daughters of those who don't think twice of placing the sons and daughters of others in harm's way, face the same prospects..

I believe that this is what the author had in mind. ]]> http://themoderatevoice.com/53639/on-the-military-draft-and-true-patriotism/comment-page-1/#comment-232694 Father_Time Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:15 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=53639#comment-232694 LOL, you must be the oldest veteran on the planet. <br><br>Being drafted is NOT unpatriotic. One's dedication in service is what's important. The typical draftee during all our wars served well. I'm sure there are records that will bear out facts that show draftees performing as well as or better than volunteers in depending on the individual. One thing is for certain, the enemy doesn’t discriminate whom they kill. That includes American civilians that served in Vietnam also. <br><br>Tens of thousands of American civilians served in Vietnam. I met a man after the war that worked for government contractor, called Lear Sigler, as a mechanic. That man was shot up pretty bad and suffers very serious permanent injury and disablement. As I have said before, you never hear of the civilians that suffer and die in war, whether they participate in some capacity, or, just happen to get in the way. They don’t get medals and they don’t get recognition. In WWII, the highest rate of death was among civilian merchant seamen carrying men and material to Britain and Russia. During WWII, 54 million people lost there lives with only a fraction of that being combatants. Among these “draft or volunteer” was irrelevant. However they were in fact in war suffering massively with their individual stories rarely if ever recounted. There loss, never honored, their memory lost. LOL, you must be the oldest veteran on the planet.

Being drafted is NOT unpatriotic. One's dedication in service is what's important. The typical draftee during all our wars served well. I'm sure there are records that will bear out facts that show draftees performing as well as or better than volunteers in depending on the individual. One thing is for certain, the enemy doesn’t discriminate whom they kill. That includes American civilians that served in Vietnam also.

Tens of thousands of American civilians served in Vietnam. I met a man after the war that worked for government contractor, called Lear Sigler, as a mechanic. That man was shot up pretty bad and suffers very serious permanent injury and disablement. As I have said before, you never hear of the civilians that suffer and die in war, whether they participate in some capacity, or, just happen to get in the way. They don’t get medals and they don’t get recognition. In WWII, the highest rate of death was among civilian merchant seamen carrying men and material to Britain and Russia. During WWII, 54 million people lost there lives with only a fraction of that being combatants. Among these “draft or volunteer” was irrelevant. However they were in fact in war suffering massively with their individual stories rarely if ever recounted. There loss, never honored, their memory lost.