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And So the Political Rhetorical Bar is Lowered Again
Some Christian conservatives are now praying for God to kill Barack Obama.
26 Responses to “And So the Political Rhetorical Bar is Lowered Again”
Joe, the bar is already as low as it can go. There will always be extremists, and moderates will always be outraged. IMHO, the real question is the quality of debate closer to the center (and how wide the center is).
Sounds like a joke done in poor taste, nothing more.
Yes, ProfElwood. Christian death threats are just friggin *hilarious*. And for a group of people who regularly show up to townhalls with guns, I'm sure it's just a *joke*.
It's not a joke, it's freaking scary. So Christians: do you want the non-Christians to think you are dangerous? That maybe if God isn't working to answer your prayers quickly enough, you just might take “God's work” into your own hands? If not, this is probably not the best strategy. If so, please refrain from considering your God and the Prince of Peace the same entity.
David, it's time to stop this rationalization of “there will always be extremists” and start taking this threat seriously. I saw a story about this on Rachel Maddow's show last night. She interviewed a guy named Frank Schaefer, who actually used to live in the world of Christian fundamentalists and knows how dangerous it is. Objectively, the level of lethal hatred on the far religious right is higher now than it has been in at least the last half century. If I'm recalling correctly from the show last night, threats against Obama have gone up 400 percent from before he took office. And by the way, the quality of debate “closer to the center” *has* been affected. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Michele Bachmann, Bill O'Reilly — all are mainstream figures and thoroughly embraced by the “center” whatever that even is these days.
It only takes one person for something really bad to happen, and the chances of that one person rising up out of this muck of religious fundamentalism is getting higher every day.
It really, really, really bothers me — a lot — when I hear such dismissive attitudes being expressed by people who I know would scream bloody murder if anyone said about the Fort Hood shootings, “There will always be extremists, and moderates will always be outraged.”
The incidence of these “jokes done in poor taste” is skyrocketing. And if you think a t-shirt that says “Pray for Obama” citing a specific psalm verse that says, “May his days be few, and let another take his office,” and then in the next line, “Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow,” is merely a “poor joke,” then I think your heart and soul could use some divine assistance.
Thank God for you, roro. Truly. Even though I would expect any comment from you to hit the nail right on the head, given the tenor of the post and the comments so far, I cannot help but be grateful there is someone besides me who thinks this matter is not a shrug of the shoulders.
Really, I don't know which is more frightening, the t-shirt message itself, or the reaction to it from normal people (as opposed to the people who actually created the t-shirts and are spreading the message).
“There will always be extremists,”
What percentage does it take before they are no longer “extreme.” From my observation, I estimate the “fringe extremists” to be in the neighborhood of 20%. In a political election, that is significant, but not overwhelming, but when measuring the number of people interested in causing someone's death, the threat is much higher.
Christianists are not well known for having a wonderful sense of humor about their religion. This is a curse on him and all of his, an old testament curse. Done in such a charmingly non-Jesus like manner. Ever notice the more extreme they become as the years roll by they remind you more and more of the extremists we are fighting far away just lacking that final lit fuse?
“From my observation, I estimate the “fringe extremists” to be in the neighborhood of 20%. “
I really think that estimate is much to high, vey9. Vehement, hostile opposition isn't the same thing at all. The “fringe” really is pretty small, I believe. Yes, they're scary to me too.
OTOH — and it pains me to introduce this equivalency “thing” here… but surely everybody recalls the many calls for the death of Bush, right? I think that was a loony-bin fringe as well.
It's time to put inciting-to-riot-during-wartime Glen Beck on trial. Any public persona inciting an uprising against the government, including alluding to killing the Speaker of the House and the President, during a time when our nation is undergoing internal crises and wars abroad must be tried for treason as an example to others who might be tempted to take the right to free speech and cross the line into treason.
It was much more common to hear people saying they wanted him tried in the Hague which of course is only threatening if you think he has done something that he could be prosecuted for. Nothing with any organization that I remember though and the major reference is to a film that was done by Brit's and actually against harming him in any way. It did exist but it was a lone nut type fringe though they did exist, weaving religion in is a bit more creepy. And now they sound like Jihadists.
I agree though the percentage is likely around 10% but once you cut out those there because they followed the wrong crowd you are likely talking about maybe 5% or less. Its still a huge number but not percentage wise.
I can't believe that so many are taking this thing seriously.
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/political+tasteless+gifts
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/LA-Bumper.html
Here's some others: “Too many Christians, not enough lions”,”Who's God Do You Kill For?”
From the Bush era: “Pray For Impeachment”, “One Nation Under Clod”
http://wutbumperstickers.com/political
http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff.9176738
http://www.cafepress.com/beatbushgear.33804979
“IMHO, the real question is the quality of debate closer to the center (and how wide the center is).”
We can do without the excessive outrage and overreaction and excuse for more lefty tantrum-throwing.
“[S]urely everybody recalls the many calls for the death of Bush, right?”
That's different, of course. It is (was) acceptable, authentic, politically correct, “protected” …
That's a real stretch, comparing a nasty t-shirt to an actual massacre. Of course I'd be PO'd if someone said after Ft. Hood that there will always be extremists, so deal with it. Because there's a huge difference between people actually preaching and engaging in violence as opposed to those who print offensive t-shirts.
I'm very glad that the Secret Service and FBI work around the clock to protect President Obama and investigate violent extremism. If they need more funding, they should get it. So let me be crystal clear: When I talk about extremism, I mean extreme rhetoric, not incitement to violence.
I understand your theory of the case: Enough t-shirts like this and other publicity stunts create a “muck of religious fundamentalism” that will give us our next Lee Harvey Oswald. I don't reject that theory out of hand. The right environment can push a certain type of person over the edge. I guess I just have a gut feeling that some critics are looking out for every possible chance to connect evangelical Christianity with violence, without ever really understanding what evangelicals are about.
Yes, a strange reaction for minimally observant New York Jew. But I remember when my own thoughts about evangelicals were based on little more than fear and stereotypes.
Hocking bumber stickers? Because your links have no point, Prof. “Pray for Impeachment” is different than “pray for Obama's wife to be a widow and his children to be fatherless”. Is it not?
“This is a curse on him and all of his, an old testament curse. “
Yes, sir. It's totally a witch-crafty sort of thing. Of course, public prayer has always been very much like witchcraft anyway. In fact, when modern witches talk about casting their spells, they often describe what they're doing as being like praying, but not to the Christian God, and a little more active. But all the basic elements are still there.
“some critics are looking out for every possible chance to connect evangelical Christianity with violence”
adesnik — the evangelical Christians are doing a very good job of making that connection themselves, through exactly this sort of crap; historically, they've done a good job of it too. The “critics” are merely pointing out the violent language and insinuations they're using and saying that it's not cool, and could be extremely dangerous. We see in cases like the Tiller assassination that when extremely furvent religious believers (Christian or otherwise) start getting riled up by messages of violence from their fellow-believers and religious leaders, when they start feeling like God is on the side of violence — that's when one person takes it too far and things get ugly.
Thanks Kathy. I appreciate the vote of confidence. I find it really gross how our culture has all these universally-held evils that are clearly not things we want to perpetuate or make light of (assassination, murder, rape, bigotry), yet making “jokes” about these things is rampant and considered ok. The effect, of course, is to numb the entire population to these things, and to make those on the fringe of sanity think they're actually desirable. Of course, as MagicSkyFather points out, most religious people tend to take their religion seriously, and tend not to pray as a “joke”.
I thought that the point was painstakingly obvious, but I apparently I assume too much. Go down to any crowded parking lot, and read some bumper stickers. Some of them are little more than advertising, but most are meant to be funny, sarcastic, offensive, ironic, thought-provoking or just plain dumb. If this was meant to incite Christians to kill, it's a sucky attempt — no one is looking up scriptures that they read on bumper stickers. It's obviously a joke either for the very few that take the time to look up the reference, or those who knew the joke to start with.
If that still doesn't make sense, watch the comedy channel and start fact-checking every joke.
There's something else that's bugging me about this trashing. Whoever said that the person who created this is a Christian, or what kind of Christian they are? There are plenty of people who either were Christian or Jew, don't take their religion seriously, or study the bible as a historical work. It's a ubiquitous book: it doesn't take a scholar to find that kind of verse.
Here is my issue. Why is it when a evangelical christians in the US do or say something we always go out of our way to explain why this is a joke or why they are misunderstood or if alone why they are a lone nut. I find it interesting because this is the exact opposite reaction that the evangelical christian community in the US takes about muslims and atheists and for that matter catholics. The entire left was berated over Death Of A President when it was made in Britain and was also a film about why you do not martyr leaders as it makes them more powerful.
Eco-activists are charged with terrorism for burning empty Hummers and abortion clinic killers that openly say they are part of a larger organization and speak much like christian AQ are “lone nuts”, well those lone nuts have been a constant drip drip stream and have been well funded by mostly the same groups from the beginning. From my point of view we do this kabuki dance for two reasons, we are in denial and do not wish to come to terms with the fact that we have a growing problem with religious extremists in our own country and because they are defended by one specific party that over the years has done a pretty good job convincing large amounts of them that the entire world is “at war with christians.” The second reason we wish to ignore it is because like a boiled frog it has ever so slowly gotten worse. Again please explain how you think anyone Christian would find a old testament curse funny? This is a primal wish, not a joke.
In short I think people got so used to “defending christians” against small or petty attacks in the past that they are largely missing how those people have changed.
I could understand this a lot better if the sticker has “First Baptist Church of St. Paul” written under it, but it didn't. For all we know, the writer was an atheist making fun of Christian bumper stickers. I've never seen a church or religious group egg on or approve of abortion clinic killers, and around here they're regarded as destructive.
Apparently, I'm out of the loop on a lot of this stuff, because I never heard about people burning Hummers, or how people reacted to it, or who funds killers, or the world being at war with Christians (Christian principles, maybe, but not Christians per se). Maybe that comes from living in rural areas and avoiding the main steam media.
It comes from growing up around the christianists. They are few but still scary as hell, I grew up in Martinsville if you know the area in central IN. Now I see what you mean by a joke though, for some reason I thought you meant a joke from someone on the right which I thought extremely unlikely as it is not funny in that way. I also spent sometime in south central IN shortly after 2001 and things got a bit weird, it did snap back after a few years but the memory stuck with me.
The Hummer thing was some eco-activist group in 2003 torched some hummers in a parking lot and the terrorist laws were used to prosecute them and in doing so a string of terror prosecutions of citizens followed and continues. Mostly eco terrorists for property destruction. It was a pretty big deal for the anti patriot act types and I fell into that group but it was pretty widely covered. As for the funding of killers this is just the way things tend to work, I look at the Army Of God and like organizations like the KKK of old and they took care of those and tried to protect those that followed their requests. These could all be isolated lone incidents but I think to believe that is either willfully ignoring those movements or just practicing wishful thinking. I should explain that though, I do not think they are near so extreme that we should be really freaked out but merely wary. The reason is technology as it continues to get faster which it will over the next decade at least the changes society will go through will cause major social disruption and groups that feel they are losing control may lash out in more and more extreme ways. In other words the FBI report(maybe it was secret service cant remember) was correct and this would be true no matter the party affiliation of the president or his skin color. Large segments of the population that have a great deal in common are feeling alienated while experiencing growing economic hardship and that will not be ending until they educate themselves away from a labor skill set. In short I blame the shift from an industrial to a digital economy much like the transition into the industrial.
I think the most benign cause of the phrase may just be someone that thought they could make a buck. Those that buy them on the other hand I have less good thoughts about but maybe your right and of course if it was a marketing decision green knows no boundaries.
I used to live on the south side of Indy, right off of the county line, so I've been to Martinsville, but never lived there. My current area used to be a stronghold of the KKK: one the area's school mascot is a dragon. They even had a “rally” out here last year, but from all accounts it was nothing but three or four men, that no one knew, trying to pass out tracts. There's still some lingering bigotry, but it's in hiding and dying. I never heard of the Army of God, but one look at their website was enough to see that they're not the type of Christian that I've known, since it's clearly a vengeance based group. The pro-life (pro-illegal) people I've met are the advocacy and lobbyist types.
I'm one of those who feels that loss of control, and have for several years, although I'm still clinging to the hope that this is a cycle which will eventually swing the other direction.
” I guess I just have a gut feeling that some critics are looking out for every possible chance to connect evangelical Christianity with violence, without ever really understanding what evangelicals are about.”
Understanding isn't necessary with these people, which may explain their propensity for being such people — as with those who have similar hatred of and willingness to slander and distort the truth about non-Christian “social conservatives,” as we're seeing in particular right now with Sarah Palin (whom these people are actually making more of a phenomenon and celebrity than social conservatives are).