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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t Push Your Luck, Stupak</title>
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		<title>By: Leonidas</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230729</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230729</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; For one thing, there’s no “double-cross” — Speaker Pelosi let him bring his measure up for a vote and it passed. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What he is talking about is if the language of his amendment is dropped in the final bill, if it is, he is calling that a double cross and is threatening 40 votes being removed from support of it in the House, enough to sink the bill with quite a few to spare.  Even 10 votes would be more than enough.  No clue how Mr. Benen didn&#039;t understand that in his article, its pretty darn obvious.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And Stupak could make it hell to pay,  Pro-life democrats plus Republicans would constitute a majority in the House and Senate and could start passing new bills if the pro-life democrats felt &quot;double-crossed&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> For one thing, there’s no “double-cross” — Speaker Pelosi let him bring his measure up for a vote and it passed. </p></blockquote>
<p>What he is talking about is if the language of his amendment is dropped in the final bill, if it is, he is calling that a double cross and is threatening 40 votes being removed from support of it in the House, enough to sink the bill with quite a few to spare.  Even 10 votes would be more than enough.  No clue how Mr. Benen didn&#39;t understand that in his article, its pretty darn obvious.</p>
<p>And Stupak could make it hell to pay,  Pro-life democrats plus Republicans would constitute a majority in the House and Senate and could start passing new bills if the pro-life democrats felt &#8220;double-crossed&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Leonidas</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230728</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230728</guid>
		<description>Having big tent intolerance isn&#039;t just a right-wing republican thing, their left-wing democratic twins are just as bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having big tent intolerance isn&#39;t just a right-wing republican thing, their left-wing democratic twins are just as bad.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230585</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230585</guid>
		<description>(Correct, complete title of this new thread on the old subject)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;[pant, pant]  Don&#039;t push your luck, Stupak, you disguised right-wing patriarchal bastard!  [grrrr]&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Karen -- that&#039;s because you and I and others are in the real world.  And, the issue isn&#039;t resolved yet.  The militant fringe pro-abortion absolutists are joined by &quot;progressive&quot; Dems in the House who will fight to get the language in the health legislation liberalized, while also seeking to get it first liberalized by the Senate, if they can.  There will no doubt be pushing in the the direction by those who won&#039;t accept any militant extremes (and don&#039;t forget, there is nothing &quot;sacred&quot; about creating a new federal entitlement to publicly-funded abortion; that, in fact, is fringist and controversial and opposed by most, obviously).  Add to that, whatever muscle-flexing and bellowing we may hear from the currently-sidelined GOPers, notably the social conservatives (right on cue, if the extremist lefties keep howling too loudly; the latter will in fact have earned the bellowing of the former; &quot;congratulations&quot;!).  Just as the public option is not anywhere near dead yet, nor is there a resolution or settlement yet of federal provision of or funding for abortion.  Note that the fringist leftists, who routinely disgrace and embarrass themselves, once again do so to their own discredit if they choose to be stupidly obscessed and inflammatory about this trivial side issue, risking loss of the beachhead of a universal-entitlement-oriented federal role for health care now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Correct, complete title of this new thread on the old subject)</p>
<p>[pant, pant]  Don&#39;t push your luck, Stupak, you disguised right-wing patriarchal bastard!  [grrrr]</p>
<p>Karen &#8212; that&#39;s because you and I and others are in the real world.  And, the issue isn&#39;t resolved yet.  The militant fringe pro-abortion absolutists are joined by &#8220;progressive&#8221; Dems in the House who will fight to get the language in the health legislation liberalized, while also seeking to get it first liberalized by the Senate, if they can.  There will no doubt be pushing in the the direction by those who won&#39;t accept any militant extremes (and don&#39;t forget, there is nothing &#8220;sacred&#8221; about creating a new federal entitlement to publicly-funded abortion; that, in fact, is fringist and controversial and opposed by most, obviously).  Add to that, whatever muscle-flexing and bellowing we may hear from the currently-sidelined GOPers, notably the social conservatives (right on cue, if the extremist lefties keep howling too loudly; the latter will in fact have earned the bellowing of the former; &#8220;congratulations&#8221;!).  Just as the public option is not anywhere near dead yet, nor is there a resolution or settlement yet of federal provision of or funding for abortion.  Note that the fringist leftists, who routinely disgrace and embarrass themselves, once again do so to their own discredit if they choose to be stupidly obscessed and inflammatory about this trivial side issue, risking loss of the beachhead of a universal-entitlement-oriented federal role for health care now.</p>
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		<title>By: ProfElwood</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230527</link>
		<dc:creator>ProfElwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230527</guid>
		<description>I thought that we already covered that. The ordinary, over-the-counter pill can be used to force a period, if you know how to use it. Again, I&#039;m still wondering if these people are trying to fix a problem that doesn&#039;t really exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought that we already covered that. The ordinary, over-the-counter pill can be used to force a period, if you know how to use it. Again, I&#39;m still wondering if these people are trying to fix a problem that doesn&#39;t really exist.</p>
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		<title>By: JSpencer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230507</link>
		<dc:creator>JSpencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230507</guid>
		<description>Karen, I have no problems with compromise when it comes to abortions &lt;i&gt;beyond&lt;/i&gt; the first trimester, but up until that time they should be legal and available without question - and without the patient having to walk through a gauntlet of screaming, spitting lunatics - and without the Dr. having to worry about some nutcase who imagines himself to be an avenger sent from god shooting or bombing people.  Also I don&#039;t have a problem with the patient being required to pay for her own abortion, although this is an area in which there is a certain amount if inconsistency when it comes to the principle involved. I hope this helps to clarify my position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen, I have no problems with compromise when it comes to abortions <i>beyond</i> the first trimester, but up until that time they should be legal and available without question &#8211; and without the patient having to walk through a gauntlet of screaming, spitting lunatics &#8211; and without the Dr. having to worry about some nutcase who imagines himself to be an avenger sent from god shooting or bombing people.  Also I don&#39;t have a problem with the patient being required to pay for her own abortion, although this is an area in which there is a certain amount if inconsistency when it comes to the principle involved. I hope this helps to clarify my position.</p>
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		<title>By: kathykattenburg</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230479</link>
		<dc:creator>kathykattenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230479</guid>
		<description>ROFL!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ROFL!!</p>
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		<title>By: DaMav</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230472</link>
		<dc:creator>DaMav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230472</guid>
		<description>Just another example of conservatives tearing the party apart and alienating moderates by applying litmus tests and bucking party leadership.  Oh wait, wrong party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just another example of conservatives tearing the party apart and alienating moderates by applying litmus tests and bucking party leadership.  Oh wait, wrong party.</p>
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		<title>By: AustinRoth</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230455</link>
		<dc:creator>AustinRoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230455</guid>
		<description>She probably thinks it is easier to hide from me here!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She probably thinks it is easier to hide from me here!</p>
<p> <img src='http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: adelinesdad</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230454</link>
		<dc:creator>adelinesdad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230454</guid>
		<description>Agreed, with an additional restriction of 5 threads per week.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I see no problem with Stupak predicting that removing the language of the amendment might cause the bill to go down.  If he&#039;s a loyal Democrat, isn&#039;t it his obligation to make that known so that such a defeat can be avoided?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Or it could be blackmail.  I guess that&#039;s in the eye of the beholder.  Either way, what he says doesn&#039;t matter.  The only thing that matters is how many votes they can get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, with an additional restriction of 5 threads per week.</p>
<p>I see no problem with Stupak predicting that removing the language of the amendment might cause the bill to go down.  If he&#39;s a loyal Democrat, isn&#39;t it his obligation to make that known so that such a defeat can be avoided?</p>
<p>Or it could be blackmail.  I guess that&#39;s in the eye of the beholder.  Either way, what he says doesn&#39;t matter.  The only thing that matters is how many votes they can get.</p>
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		<title>By: karenvogel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230447</link>
		<dc:creator>karenvogel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230447</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a woman, I&#039;m certainly not a misogynist, and I believe in limits on abortion.  It is beyond my understanding how either side can think that there will not be compromises made on this issue. Pro lifers need to understand that abortion will never again be completely illegal in the US. And pro-abortion advocates can&#039;t have everything their way either.  However they personally feel about abortion, it is morally repugnant to many of their fellow citizens - that is an unchangeable fact that the health care plan has to deal with.  I applaud the prolife Dems for keeping this issue on the table; and I deplore that our representatives cannot be more flexible and creative in dealing with the problems abortion presents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m a woman, I&#39;m certainly not a misogynist, and I believe in limits on abortion.  It is beyond my understanding how either side can think that there will not be compromises made on this issue. Pro lifers need to understand that abortion will never again be completely illegal in the US. And pro-abortion advocates can&#39;t have everything their way either.  However they personally feel about abortion, it is morally repugnant to many of their fellow citizens &#8211; that is an unchangeable fact that the health care plan has to deal with.  I applaud the prolife Dems for keeping this issue on the table; and I deplore that our representatives cannot be more flexible and creative in dealing with the problems abortion presents.</p>
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		<title>By: JSpencer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230435</link>
		<dc:creator>JSpencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230435</guid>
		<description>Interesting, especially the part about the republican plan covering elective abortion. I guess that sort of thing doesn&#039;t really surprise me anymore. As for Stupak, he might want to tone down his rhetoric a little bit; sounds like he imagines himself to be a bigger fish than he probably is.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;When Benen mentions Stupak&#039;s record on women&#039;s reproductive rights I can&#039;t help but wonder about the degree to which misogyny might be playing a part in all of this. Yes, I know, this the 21st century, we don&#039;t have misogyny, or racism, or any of those old problems anymore. ;-)&lt;/BR&gt;&lt;/BR&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting, especially the part about the republican plan covering elective abortion. I guess that sort of thing doesn&#39;t really surprise me anymore. As for Stupak, he might want to tone down his rhetoric a little bit; sounds like he imagines himself to be a bigger fish than he probably is.</p>
<p>When Benen mentions Stupak&#39;s record on women&#39;s reproductive rights I can&#39;t help but wonder about the degree to which misogyny might be playing a part in all of this. Yes, I know, this the 21st century, we don&#39;t have misogyny, or racism, or any of those old problems anymore. <img src='http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JeffersonDavis</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/52846/dont-push-your-luck-stupak/comment-page-1/#comment-230425</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffersonDavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=52846#comment-230425</guid>
		<description>Good gracious, Kat.  Can&#039;t we limit this subject to one thread a day?&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s emotionally exhausting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good gracious, Kat.  Can&#39;t we limit this subject to one thread a day?<br />It&#39;s emotionally exhausting!</p>
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