2.See number 1, above.

3. I do not recall your using the phrase “triple up on contraception.” You used the phrase “take precautions” which must mean “use contraception” because I don't know what else it could mean. You did not say “extreme precaution.” You said that women who could not afford children or didn't want them for whatever reason should either abstain from sex or take precautions (i.e., use contraception). You did say “use contraception” but you did not say “extreme contraception.”

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don't want sex use contraception fit into those statements?

Nowhere, because that is not what the statistic says, and it's not what I said it said.

As I'm sure you would agree, contraception is not an issue for women who do not want sex.

Contraception is an issue for women who DO want sex but DON'T want children.

But I don't believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can't afford it, or doesn't want it, or is too immature, etc.

And as I've said, I agree with that assessment. But somehow, in your mind, the contraceptive issue seems to be one of the reasons you think a woman might have an abortion. You keep saying that most women have abortions because they can't afford, don't want, etc., the baby, NOT because their contraceptive method failed. But what I am trying to find some way to get you to understand is that it's not either/or. It's not either the woman had an abortion because she couldn't afford a baby, or a woman had an abortion because her contraception failed. “Reason for abortion” and “use of contraception” are different in *kind.* They are not in the same category. A woman can have an abortion because she can't afford a baby, EVEN IF she DID use contraception. And that is because contraceptives can fail — even if you use more than one method.

You seem to believe, or you seem to be saying, at least, that *either* a woman has an abortion because she can't afford a child, *or* she has an abortion because her contraceptive method failed. And that does not make sense. Here is what makes sense: A woman gets pregnant after her contraceptive method fails and she has an abortion because she cannot afford a child.

Is this clear to you now, what I am trying to say to you?

Now, if you come back at me with something like, “Kathy, you still don't understand; I told you that most women have abortions because they can't afford a child, not because of failed contraceptive method,” I am going to scream so loud and so long that you WILL hear it in Texas, or wherever it is you are.

1. I stated that most women have abortions for reasons other than your many exceptions (rape, incest, health, and contraception).
2. The vast majority have abortions for other reasons. You dismissed my numbers on that because you didn't like the website. Unless you can show me other numbers as to WHY women have abortions, then I have to rely on what I have found.
3. I stated that women who could not afford children, should probably not have sex, or at a bare minimum, triple up on contraception (the words I used were “extreme precaution” I believe).

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don't want sex use contraception fit into those statements? Yes, I got your intent from your last post. But I don't believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can't afford it, or doesn't want it, or is too immature, etc.

Here is the logical sequence again, JD.

1. Woman is sexually active but does not want to have a child.
2. Woman uses contraception to prevent pregnancy.
3. Contraceptive fails to work as it should.
4. Woman becomes pregnant.
5. Woman does not want to be pregnant (refer back to number 1) and decides to have an abortion.

Here is JD's argument:

1. If a woman does not want to have a baby, she should be responsible.
2. Definition of being responsible:
(a) not have sex
(b) use contraception
3. Woman chooses responsible option b: Use contraception.
4. Contraception fails, woman becomes pregnant, woman has abortion.

Now let's revisit what you said above:

Kathy. You've missed the original assertion, again.

SO WHAT? That's obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn't have used contraception!!!!!

Ummmm, yeah… that's true… so why have you been saying that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she should act responsibly by not having sex, OR by using contraception?

Continuing:

Now… Let's make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because “most” had failed contraception? No.

Ummmm, no…. It's because they don't want to have a child. I agree with that. Although I feel I must add, in the interest of accuracy, that I never said most women have abortions because they didn't use contraception. I said that most unwanted pregnancies happen because contraception fails. After all, if you're having an abortion, it must mean you're pregnant, right? And if you don't want to be pregnant and you were using contraception, it must mean your contraceptive method failed, right? Otherwise, you wouldn't need an abortion, right?

Now, going back to something you have said repeatedly: Those women (the ones who have abortions because they don't want a child) are irresponsible because if they didn't want a child, they should have either not had sex or used contraception.

But most of them DID use contraception!

Then you say,
I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don't want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

Here's what it has to do with your statement: Most women who have abortions don't want the baby. Most women who have abortions are pregnant (well, actually all women who have abortions are pregnant). Most women who don't want children were using contraception at the time they had sex, and became pregnant. Therefore, your repeated claim that women who have abortions are irresponsible because they should have used contraception doesn't make sense.

Finally you say,

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

To which I reply:Oh, JD. Tell me about it. I know exactly how you feel.

Ok, Kathy. You've missed the original assertion, again.

Most sexually active women of childbearing age but don't want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant?

SO WHAT? That's obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn't have used contraception!!!!!

Now… Let's make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because “most” had failed contraception? No.

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don't want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

GEEZ!

It does matter. And when you cite something on the Internet, you are supposed to provide either a link or some other way for the person you are speaking with to easily find it. How on earth am I supposed to find the above on Wikipedia with no link, no title, no way to identify or find the article on Wikipedia?

Even when I cite stuff, you don't actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity.

And that is because most of the time when you “cite stuff,” it *isn't* pertinent, even if valid, and usually I can't even find it (see above in this same comment).

From Encyclopedia Britanica and Wikipedia (read it in encyclo, cut it from Wiki).

Does it matter, Kathy. Even when I cite stuff, you don't actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity. The AGI info from the site I gave is accurate. It is merely the REASONS women have abortions.

. If you want statistics PER THE ALAN GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE SITE, then GO to the Alan Guttmacher Institute site.

Can be found here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/371100…

This is the study that JD mentions. Its there Kathy.

TABLE 3. Percentage distribution of women having an abortion, by their most important
reason for having the abortion, 2004 and 1987
Reason 2004 1987
(N=957) (N=1,773)
Not ready for a(nother) child†/timing is wrong 25 27
Can’t afford a baby now 23 21
Have completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/
children are grown 19 8***
Don’t want to be a single mother/am having relationship problems 8 13***
Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young 7 11**
Would interfere with education or career plans 4 10***
Physical problem with my health 4 3
Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 3 3
Was a victim of rape <0.5 1
Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion <0.5 1
Parents want me to have an abortion <0.5 <0.5
Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant <0.5 1***
Other 6 1
Total 100 100

Just one brief comment and then I have to run- about the part where you agreed that your position is based on a desire to 'level the playing field' since women are the ones who bear more natural consequence of sexual activity- this really just speaks to our fundamental, philosophical disagreement over the role of government. I don't think it's desirable nor even close to being possible for government to do that in so many instances, so I never consider that as the role that government should play. Life just isn't fair, and there's no way that we're going to make it that way by fiat.

Do you have a cite for this?

And it IS Alan, not Allen.

I'm just wondering: As a practical matter, what do you think the punishment for suicide should be?

That link you provided is to an unknown person on an anti-choice site. It is not per the Alan Guttmacher Institute. He takes information from the AGI and then claims they're wrong. If you want statistics PER THE ALAN GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE SITE, then GO to the Alan Guttmacher Institute site.

I gave you a link to a highly respected, professional site and you give me a link to a site belonging to an individual who is unknown to anybody and has no credibility at all.

And then YOU tell ME to “Read it carefully, ok?”

You know very well, Kathy, that I provided unbiased statistics as to THE REASON WOMEN HAVE ABORTIONS. I said nothing about statistics about promiscuity.

JD, you are having trouble keeping track of your own misinformation. I never said that you said anything “about statistics about promiscuity.” YOU said, repeatedly, that women who have abortions because they don't want or can't support the child are promiscuous. You defined promiscuous (paraphrasing) as having sex without taking precautions. Roro pointed out that your definition of “promiscuous” was incorrect. Here is your answer to her:

“And I stand corrected by the “promiscuous” definition. But besides symantics, which obviously is more important that the meat of the argument I presented; my assertion stands, correctly, that unwanted pregnancies are from lack of self control, or lack of precaution (my emphasis). If I do not want cancer, there is nothing I can do to stop it. If I do not want a child, I can CHOOSE not to have sex.”

I don't think that you yourself know what point you're trying to make anymore. First you tell us that women have unwanted pregnancies because they didn't use contraception. Then when I show you reliable information demonstrating that most sexually active women of childbearing age who don't want to get pregnant DO use contraception, you (a) deny that it's true and give me a new link to a junk site; (b) tell me again that “the vast majority of abortions are because the woman does not want the baby — for a myriad of reasons” — which is not the same issue as the contraception issue; and then (c) tell me, additionally, that “It is THESE women that could have prevented the pregnancy through more responsible methods. Contraception failure is less than 1% of the reason for abortions.” You conclude by repeating your mantra that if women don't want children they can choose not to have sex — which also contradicts your simultaneous and previous assertions that you want women to “take precautions.”

You seem not to understand the distinction between the reason for the pregnancy and the reason for the abortion. The first is because of, in most cases, contraceptive failure; and the second is because, in the majority of cases, the woman who is pregnant does not want, is not emotionally ready for, or cannot support a child at that time. The two are different. They're not the same. You also don't seem to be clear about which assertion you are trying to convince me of. Are you trying to argue that most women have abortions for social reasons, or are you trying to argue that most women have abortions because they did not take precautions. The first is probably true (which I argued against before, but CStanley persuaded me I was mistaken on); the second is most definitely NOT true.

And again:

“As a point of fact…the overwhelming majority of women of childbearing age who are sexually active and do not want children are using contraception.”

That's GREAT!
Once again….. EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.

I'll say it one more time for you. Read it carefully. Ok?
Per The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI):
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion…

No. You are the one who needs to read, and think, more carefully, not me. My statement that most women of childbearing age who are sexually active and don't want children are using contraception WAS AND IS CORRECT, per the AGI, which you can go and look at again if you want to. That is THE RULE, not the exception. Remember, try to keep this straight: *We are talking now about “taking precautions” — being responsible, using contraception. We are NOT talking right now about WHY most women have ABORTIONS. We are talking right now about WHY most women have unintended and unwanted PREGNANCIES.

Edited to add: Okay, JD, here is the problem, right here. This line:

“Contraception failure is less than 1% of the reason for abortions.”

No one is saying contraception failure is the reason for ABORTIONS. It is (most frequently) the reason for the UNWANTED PREGNANCY. The reason for the abortion is that the pregnancy is unwanted. The reason for the pregnancy is contraceptive failure.

roro80: “The point, yet again, that men's decisions about their own health care are not called into questions or restricted.”

You're right, but it is the unique biology of women that makes the abortion issue controversial. Is there a medical procedure that exclusively applies to men that is comparable to abortion in the moral questions that it presents? I can't think of any. Is that fair? No. But neither is it fair that biology/mother nature/God/whatever has determined that women should bear the children and men don't have to. Obviously, men and women are different. If separate-but-equal is not really “equal”, then women and men will never be “equal” in that sense because we will never be equivalent. It seems the best we can do is deal with that the best we can and not expect equivalent treatment in cases where clearly it is biologically impossible.

“Yet it's very easy for one of the parties to skirt this responsibility, and essentially impossible for the other party. “Busting his butt” is a great option for those rich women whose men take off.”

I explained my position on the legality of abortion previously in this thread (I think it was this one–they've all run together in my head). I believe it should be illegal except when there are medical complications (which is quite broad, and in at least Kathy's opinion would make it legal most of the time). I don't expect you to care what I think should be legal or illegal, and I understand that the court has ruled on the subject, but my point is this: I think the man who abandons the mother of his child has committed an act at least as immoral, and at least as worthy of legal prohibition, as the women who gets an abortion.

No, that's illegal. Why aren't you arguing for suicide rights?

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion…

from the Allen Guttmacher Institute.
Go check it out, please.

And what a woman does with her own body is EVERYONE'S business if she is committing murder. You can go ahead and consider an unborn child as a lumpy mass of cells if that helps you sleep at night. That does not take away from the point that life begins at conception. Once the cells begin to divide and synapses begin to fire, you've got a human being whether you like it or not. Your calling a baby a “fetus” makes it a little less cold to kill it as well.

Even the Japanese count age from the date of conception – as do many other cultures. So once you're born, you are already nine months old.

(sorry for the dolt comment, but it fit the situation. I don't really think you're a “dolt”)

That's GREAT!
Once again….. EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.

I'll say it one more time for you. Read it carefully. Ok?
Per The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI):
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion…

Rape: 1%
Incest: 0.5%
Health problems of mother: 12%
Health of baby: 13%

(NOTE: Not more than 13 percent listed the above reasons)

Unready to have child: 32%
Too immature to have child: 22%
Parents (grandparents) want it: 6%
To avoid single parenthood: 48%
Partner doesn't want child: 14%
Doesn't want any more children: 38%
Can't afford a baby right now: 73%
Unmarried: 42%

Another note: All of the reasons given for the second set could have been prevented through more responsible action or self control.

You know very well, Kathy, that I provided unbiased statistics as to THE REASON WOMEN HAVE ABORTIONS. I said nothing about statistics about promiscuity.

YOU STILL HAVE YET TO CONFIRM MY POST WITH THOSE STATS.
You simply choose to ignore it and say the exact opposite.
You said that most women have abortions because it is a health issue. I showed you proof to the contrary.

The VAST majority of abortions are because the woman does not want the baby – for a myriad of reasons.

It is THESE women that could have prevented the pregnancy through more responsible methods.
Contraception failure is less than 1% of the reason for abortions.