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COMPROMISE NEEDED WITH ABORTION FOES IN HEALTHCARE REFORM

Anti-abortion and pro-life advocates successfully added an Amendment to the House Health Reform Bill that prohibited any Federal Funds from subsidizing private insurance purchases by individuals and families on public exchanges that would cover abortions. Pro-abortion and pro-choice advocates cried foul and the amendment constituted an impermissible limit on a woman’s right to choose. The President also complained that abortion legislation does not belong with healthcare reform.

Conservatives may be more correct than Progressives on this limited debate. Pregnancies and abortions are intrinsic parts of any healthcare debate since they impact the health of a woman. It is also a covered medical procedure for a majority of private health policies provided by employers across the country. However, many women do not make claims for reimbursement or present their insurance cards at the time of an abortion because they do not wish to inform their employers they have elected for such a procedure that generally costs between $300 and $600.

Since the 1973 Supreme Court decision, U.S. law permits an abortion for any reason during the first trimester. After the first 3 months, then states can limit it for certain public policy reasons or prohibit certain procedures altogether. There are not that many physicians and medical facilities that provide these services and overall availability varies greatly between different cities and states. The nation is evenly divided on this issue with a slight majority supporting the procedure anytime the mother’s life is at risk or the pregnancy was the result of rape of incest. The Supreme Court has cited these reasons to permit some later-term abortions. Certain abortion foes do not even sanction those exceptions, nor do they support the sale and distribution of RU-486, the morning-after pill since it causes an immediate menstrual period even though a recently-fertilized egg may or may not be present.

Employer-sponsored healthcare exists in the U.S. because of favorable tax treatment by the Federal Government. The benefits of medical insurance are not considered taxable income to the employee yet the employer may deduct those expenses against gross revenues to arrive at taxable net income. This preferential tax treatment has also been subject to considerable debate during the past 10 months. Therefore Conservatives can reasonably argue that federal funds and tax policy impermissibly support and pay for abortions covered under private employer-sponsored health plans.

If Democrats want to pass any healthcare before the 2010 Midterm elections, they will have to compromise with Democrats and some Republicans who support such broad limitations on public funding for abortion. In fact, those opponents of this elective pregnancy-terminating procedure could logically demand that all abortions not be covered in any public or private health insurance policies and that morning-after pills should also be excluded.

This national policy would not limit a woman’s choice, but merely eliminate public funds from paying for those particular legal private choices, without disrupting the need for federal subsidies so lower-income families can afford private health insurance. The left would argue that poor woman cannot afford these procedures without public assistance, but that misses the entire point. The choice is always there but the lack of money to pay for an elective and legal procedure has never been an adequate challenge against restrictions on how public tax funds are allocated.

It is highly probable that the Senate Bill and the later joint conference committee’s final Bill merging the Senate and House versions will have to deal with these issues. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and other abortion foes will likely widen their demands in light of their recent successful amendment to the House Bill. If they are successful at banning all public and private insurance policies from covering abortions and morning-after pills, Democrats might be able to insert an exception if a physician determines and signs a written certification that the life of the mother is at stake, to make it a covered procedure for all public and private insurance. To expand access to on-demand elective abortions for poor women, proponents may have to depend upon private charitable fundraising for such specific financial support.

As a counterbalance to sweeping prohibitions of any insurance coverage for all abortions, both liberals and conservatives should demand greater public and private insurance coverage for comprehensive pregnancy care, childbirth, extensive infant and maternity care during the first 6 months after birth, and full coverage for surgical remedies of various congenital birth defects.

In addition, progressives could advocate more public funds for comprehensive sex education in all public, charter and private schools starting in the 4th or 5th grade, being this is a healthcare education issue. Those schools that refuse to provide such sex instruction could lose all their federal and state public funds.

All condoms and other pregnancy-prevention medicines and devices for both men and women could be fully covered by public and private health insurance plans. A compromise should be sought to greatly reduce the need for any abortions because there would be far fewer unwanted pregnancies. For those pregnancies that proceed to birth, the mother and new child must become societal priorities so we significantly reduce our inexcusably high infant mortality rate. Any “continuum of life” should include adequate healthcare though every stage of life.

Whereas we can all believe different things with respect to when life begins and death occurs in humans, we need to establish firm, secular lines in a pluralistic society with respect to what is legally protected and what the public will support financially. This compromise would maintain a workable separation of church and state within the healthcare reform debate. These provisions might provide an opportunity for the Democratic Party to bring into its fold a number of pro-life Independents, Democrats and Republicans.

Meaningful healthcare and health insurance reform should move forward this year, even if it does not include everything many people desire. Life in general – and specifically politics in Washington – is an endless compromise. The choice of doing nothing will cost taxpayers far more under the current system in excessive payments under Medicare and permitting tens of thousands of people to die or go bankrupt due to a lack of adequate health insurance.

The public option, whether with an opt-out or triggering provision, or immediately effective for a small number of uninsured, may not survive into the final bill sent to the President. He probably has understood this inevitability since January that politics in Washington would not permit its survival. Some of my prior healthcare posts suggested the same or that a public option was not needed for comprehensive healthcare reform. On this policy initiative, these past 10 months of extreme vitriol, hyperbole, anger, debate and horse-trading were probably all for naught.

I would strongly advocate that the final healthcare legislation permits any state to try its own public option or complete single-payer plan free of any legal challenges. There are probably a half-dozen interested states that should be given the opportunity to be national incubators of these ideas. To oppose even this option for experimentation by individual states would be contrary to the very notion of federalism and our protection of individual freedom and liberty to choose all legal options that have been and still are intrinsic to our very system of government.

The many common, non-partisan, and non-debated proposed reforms in both the House and Senate bills should be enacted even if a major compromise must be made with those that oppose abortion since many of them also support expanded coverage to the uninsured and stricter regulations on private healthcare. We must realistically anticipate that we will be monitoring and modifying our national health system over the next decade. Neither the extreme right nor left is justified in complaining about most of these modest and incremental healthcare reforms.

After the passage of healthcare reform by the end of 2009, we will have to promptly turn towards addressing unemployment and all the other massive challenges facing this country.

Marc Pascal

  • redbus
    The nation is evenly divided on this issue with a slight majority supporting the procedure anytime the mother’s life is at risk or the pregnancy was the result of rape of incest.

    The most recent polling shows a significant shift in the public attitude. A greater percentage of the public now supports increased restrictions on abortion. This was reported, for example, by the U.S. News and World Report. CNN reported this morning (Wednesday) that Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Nevada) has gone on record that he will oppose any Senate health bill that does not include the same abortion funding restrictions contained in the bill recently passed by the House. Rep. Stupak and Sen. Nelson represent new winds blowing in the Democratic party, and I'm glad to be associated as a Democrat with this new direction, one that mirrors the growing public consensus on a long contentious issue.
  • Leonidas
    Good posting.
  • tidbits
    That abortion remain legal, but subject to restrictions and not publicly funded, is the ultimately rational position. It respects both constitutional principles of freedom and the sensibilities of opponents who do not want there tax dollars used for something they consider immoral. Unfortunately, both sides are so radically entrenched, either to outlaw the procedure entirely or to make it available on demand, that rational compromise will be satisfactory to neither.
  • redbus
    Unfortunately, both sides are so radically entrenched, either to outlaw the procedure entirely or to make it available on demand, that rational compromise will be satisfactory to neither.


    I'm willing to entertain a few exceptional cases where abortion could be allowed, and most in the pro-life movement are of the same mind. Actually, I'd be content to see the whole issue back in the state legislatures, like pre-Roe v. Wade. I'm with DLS, that as much as possible, contentious social issues should be decided as close to the people as possible. The Robert court would do us all a big favor by overturning Roe and letting us hammer this out state-to-state.
  • JSpencer
    The right to have an abortion in cases of rape or incest should not be a state legislature issue, but should be protected nationally. The idea that anyone in those situations should be forced to go out of state to terminate a pregnancy that occurs as the result of a crime is barbaric.
  • tidbits
    Before we get too close to the cliff, we need to be aware that Roe v. Wade is the basis for American's right of privacy. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, it is not just the issue of abortion that reverts to the states, but all privacy issues, including sodomy laws (that have since been found unconstitutional under the right of privacy), right to obtain birth control, and a miriad of other privacy issues protected by the right of privacy ensconced in Roe v. Wade.

    Roe is a judcially activist case, whose legal reasoning is subject to criticism. But, there is no express right to privacy in the Constitution, and without the judicially activist decision of Roe v. Wade, that right does not exist at the federal level.

    Like Redbus, I am morally opposed to abortion, euthanasia, physician assisted suicide and capital punishment. But, I make a distinction between moral issues and constitutional issues to the extent that I oppose legislating morality.

    My warning. In wanting Roe v. Wade overturned to send the abortion issue back to the states, be careful what you wish for.





  • bacalove
    Democrats must lead by doing what is right for the people of the United States as a whole and not by watching polls promulgated by the Party of No and Fear! Democrats must not be "hoodwinked and fooled" into an abortion fight that does not really exist! We should be smarter than that... We must keep our "eye" on the Prize -- the long awaited and wished for Goal of healthcare for all Americans and lower premiums for those who are already insured. Democrats have a chance to lead by actually doing something good for Americans -- like health care, which is tied to the deficit and the bankrupting of businesses and families. We must keep our "eye" on the Prize and not be labeled with the title of another "do nothing Congress"!

    GOP politicians and operatives continue to dishonestly and deceptively say that they cannot support a public option, they claim that they want to keep costs down for the American people! Really? This they claim all the while knowing that a public option/competition is the only way to really control cost and to bring about true reform thereby putting a definite Halt to the “out of control” medical costs and premiums crippling people and businesses today, making it harder and harder for average Americans and young people to realize and take advantage of the slowly, slipping away American Dream. One could ask themselves, If you happen to lose your job today or tomorrow in these unstable economic times and at a time when we currently do not have healthcare reform for all, who would pay you or your familiy's health care costs, that is, if you are lucky enough to be able to see a doctor without insurance? This American Dream, now being called Socialism by the GOP has slowly been slipping away, and is in the last throes of dying, if we do not forge a new path onwards toward inclusion and cooperation for all. This dream of America will die to be replaced with just another third world country -- only to go by the wayside and into the history books as another failed experiment.

    (FYI: The Conservative blog "Powerline" barred me from commenting on their blog because my ideas were opposite theirs. This is something a Liberal blog would never do -- censor free speach because it did not agree with theirs!)
  • JSpencer
    Just need to make one other comment here, and it isn't directed at anyone in particular, but rather at the general terminology used. Since words have power, we need to be responsible in their use. The term "pro-life" is a misleading one, in that it implies there is also a "pro-death" faction, which is of course absurd. Everyone is "pro-life". The belief that there is a certain right to privacy that should extend to ones own reproductive system is not "pro-death". I strongly believe in the right to abortion in the first trimester, and that within that time period the choice utlimately should belong to only the woman whose body is involved.
  • roro80
    There's a lot to comment on here, but before I even get to reading the entire post, let's please clear up a commonly-held but entirely inaccurate medical issue here:

    "nor do they support the sale and distribution of RU-486, the morning-after pill since it causes an immediate menstrual period even though a recently-fertilized egg may or may not be present."

    This is not true. RU-486 is NOT the morning after pill.

    RU-486 is what is known as the "abortion pill". It can be taken up to a month after conception (there is already a confirmed pregnancy) and causes a medical abortion over the two days following the dosage of the medication and has a success rate over 90%. It is an abortion choice that can be made instead of the standard surgical abortion within the first month. It does not cause menstruation; it causes an abortion.

    The morning after pill is a heavier dose of regular old oral contraceptive "The Pill". It must be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex (the sooner the better), and *prevents* pregnancy with a success rate of about 80%, if memory serves. It *will not work* if the woman is already pregnant -- medically speaking, if there is an implanted zygote. Zygote implantation happens within 3-7 days after unprotected sex. In fact, if implementation has already happened at the time a woman takes the morning after pill, it won't even hurt the implanted zygote. ETA: it also does not cause menstruation, even though it can cause some spot bleeding due to all the extra hormones.

    If we're going to talk about this issue, let's at least get the medical facts straight. The misconception that the morning after pill is the abortion pill RU-486 just makes it harder for couples who have a slip of the condom or unprotected sex to *prevent* pregnancy through the morning after pill which is, again, just a heavier than normal dose of oral contraceptives.









  • ProfElwood
    "Since words have power..."
    I've never completely agreed with that power-word idea. It seems to me that the bigger problem is when words get redefined or misused to mean something other than their original intent. Since pro-life, pro-choice, and all the other related terms have consistently meant the same things, I don't think it's a problem to let people show their bias.
  • tidbits
    JSpencer -

    Thank you for your comment. My use of the term "pro-life" was meant only as shorthand in the political vernacular of the day. No intent to imply the opposite on the part of those who might disagree with my position was meant.

    Still, I take your point that my use of the term was careless and could be misconstrued. My prior comment has been edited to reflect your concern. My apologies for having been responsible for raising such concerns in the first place.
  • ProfElwood
    ""Powerline" barred me from commenting on their blog because my ideas were opposite theirs."

    Or maybe it had something to do with giving partisan pep talks in place of on-subject discussion. ... just a possibility.
  • roro80
    Ok, now that I've read the rest of the article, it looks like there are some ideas I could totally get behind, and there are some that I find pretty wrong.

    "Conservatives may be more correct than Progressives on this limited debate. Pregnancies and abortions are intrinsic parts of any healthcare debate since they impact the health of a woman."

    I don't understand how sentence 2 follows sentence 1 at all. Progressives have been saying that pregnancies and abortions are important to health care because of their direct and huge affect on women for ages, while conservative pro-life folks have been talking about babies and babies only. These are HUGE medical issues for women, and that's why this legislation needs to ensure that women aren't cut off from the medical services involved; it's not progressives who are trying to make it harder for women to access the correct medical care.

    "Therefore Conservatives can reasonably argue that federal funds and tax policy impermissibly support and pay for abortions covered under private employer-sponsored health plans."

    If we're going to start saying that tax deductions equal government subsidies, we've got a whole 'nuther can of worms to open -- and let's just say that the church-going crowd would not be particularly happy to see that happen. I would say that, as laws go, the non-establishment clause in the Constitution takes precidence (by bounds and leaps) over the Hyde amendment. If tax deductions for health care costs mean that the government is promoting or paying for abortion, it sure as hell means that the government is promoting and paying for religion. It also means that I'm paying $400 per kid per year (the tax deduction for having a child, last time I checked) every time someone chooses NOT to abort. That might sound harsh, but if we're gonna go there, it's not exactly fair to go there ONLY for this one particular case which will only affect women who choose to have sex -- we've got to be fair about this.

    "both liberals and conservatives should demand greater public and private insurance coverage for comprehensive pregnancy care, childbirth, extensive infant and maternity care during the first 6 months after birth, and full coverage for surgical remedies of various congenital birth defects."

    Progressives (at least feminist progressives) have been fighting for this sort of thing, but it's looked on as "socialism" by conservatives. Good friggin' luck getting compromise on this.

    "progressives could advocate more public funds for comprehensive sex education in all public"

    Again: we do! We most certainly do advocate for comprehensive sex education! I could write a 10 page paper on just this subject. Guess who doesn't want schools teaching about safe sex? Guess who would rather slut shame and talk about marriage and show little videos about a piece of tape that's been stuck and ripped off too many times or pass around a rose and have each kid take off a petal to show just how dirty and slutty and *used up* women are if they have pre-marital sex? (hint: it's not progressives.)

    "All condoms and other pregnancy-prevention medicines and devices for both men and women could be fully covered by public and private health insurance plans."

    Great idea. Again, do you really think social conservatives will compromise on this?
  • redbus
    Tidbits -

    You've raised an excellent point. Not being a Constitutional lawyer, I'm not sure about the validity of what you've said. You make Roe v. Wade sound like a game of Jenga, i.e. you pull out a block from the lower part of the tower, and what's on top comes crashing down. It's hard for me to see how overturning Roe would nullify Lawrence v. Texas, for example. The SCOTUS is usually smart enough to figure out a way to make a ruling that is narrow and thereby avoids legal collateral damage. There may be a lawyer reading this who will set me straight.
  • redbus
    It has been a few years since I commented at DailyKos, but when I did, I was quickly labeled a "troll" and had verbal abuse heaped upon me. True, they didn't delete my comments or prevent me from commenting, but the temperature was pretty hot there!
  • redbus
    People like labels, and aren't likely to get over them any time soon. Since the issue is abortion, then the two sides are those who would restrict its availability vs. those who want its availability to be expansive. That's a lot of words! How could we boil that down? Suggestions? Until then, pro-life and pro-choice seem fine to me, though both labels are misleading, since many support capital punishment who generally oppose abortion. And "pro-choice" has its own baggage, since many abortion providers do very little to provide other alternatives (like adoption) to patients.
  • JSpencer
    How about pro-choice and anti-choice? That would be a more accurate description of the two sides, although even that falls short. You're right, people like their labels, even when they complicate discourse.
  • JSpencer
    Tidbits, I've read enough of your posts to not be in doubt about the honesty of your intentions. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
  • JSpencer
    Another comment here: When abortion was illegal, women were not detered from seeking them, however the dangers were such that thousands of women per year died from unsafe procedures. Was that preferable?
  • ProfElwood
    The legality of abortion has never been a big deal to me, even though I have to agree that a fetus has to be considered a baby at some point before birth. The problem is, if the mother wants it out, she'll get it out, legal or not. Although there are a few exceptions, for the most part we're arguing over whether the kid dies legally or illegally. The real effects of making abortions illegal would be to endanger more women's lives and put some of the women and abortionists in jail afterword.

    I'd rather allow adopters to pay for healthy infants again. It's not that I'm comfortable with the idea of selling kids like they were a house or a can of beans, but I prefer that to throwing them away like trash. The definition of trash here being something that you don't want and can't sell.

    I understand that the change wouldn't save a lot of kids lives, and would have some other, unforeseen problems with it, but I still think it would be the lesser of evils.
  • roro80
    Hey Prof -- I'd like to maybe clear up a few of the issues here, ask for some clarification on others.

    "a fetus has to be considered a baby at some point before birth"

    Legally, it is. It's called viability, and the medical establishment considers this the dividing line between the second and third trimesters -- about 6 months. This is why it's illegal to get an abortion after this time unless something has gone terribly, horribly wrong. At this stage, the baby can be taken out of the mother's womb and will generally live given the proper medical care, etc. This means that it's rare to have an abortion if the baby's healthy but the mother will die if it doesn't come out -- they just take it out. This is already part of the Roe v Wade decision.

    "Although there are a few exceptions, for the most part we're arguing over whether the kid dies legally or illegally. "

    I'm really curious about what you mean here. Are we still talking late-stage abortion? I would agree with this statement if we're talking about first-trimester abortions, minus the calling the fetus a "kid". First trimester abortions are extremely easy and safe procedures if done correctly; even DIY (do research first, of course!). Later stage abortions get very dangerous. After about the 4th month of pregnancy, almost all abortions are done for more health-related reasons -- not just "I don't want this thing".

    "The real effects of making abortions illegal would be to endanger more women's lives and put some of the women and abortionists in jail afterword."

    Agreed.

    "I'd rather allow adopters to pay for healthy infants again. It's not that I'm comfortable with the idea of selling kids like they were a house or a can of beans, but I prefer that to throwing them away like trash."

    This shows some naïveté about the reasons women get abortions. First trimester abortions -- remember these are easy, safe, cheap -- are done for any reason the woman wants (legally). Sometimes those reason include shame, not wanting to carry a child, an inability to carry a child, not being capable of supporting a child, just not ready to be a parent, can't keep their job while pregnant, whatever. With most of the reasons women get early abortions, it doesn't make sense for the woman to carry that fetus to term, whether they'll be paid for the eventual kid or not. Again, most later abortions are done for other reasons -- the fetus has a disease, etc. It doesn't make sense if the eventual kid will have a disease to then keep the pregnancy in the hopes of getting money for it. Of course, there are huge moral issues involved here -- women getting pregnant on purpose in order to sell their kids, beautiful but poor women being taken advantage of and used as baby-makers for the rich who may be infertile or don't wish to ruin their bodies through pregnancy, etc. This doesn't take into account the fact that giving up your child for adoption is generally way more traumatic than having an early-term abortion.

    I don't think it's the "lesser of two evils"; in fact, I certainly think it's the worse of two evils. This is why I'm pro-choice.
  • kathykattenburg
    And that is one of the reasons why Roe v. Wade came about in the first place -- because a patchwork of differing state laws on abortion made access to this essential medical procedure difficult or impossible for women to obtain.

    Not only that, but throwing abortion as an issue back to the states will not satisfy opponents of legal abortion because the inevitable outcome of women flocking to the states where abortion is legal would be opponents of legal abortion pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban abortion outright, to prevent women from escaping their own states' criminalization of abortion.
  • kathykattenburg
    My warning. In wanting Roe v. Wade overturned to send the abortion issue back to the states, be careful what you wish for.

    Exactly, tidbits. People who want to go back to pre-Roe v. Wade have either forgotten or never knew what the practical state of affairs was before Roe v. Wade. We need to learn from our mistakes, not go back so we have to learn the lessons all over again.
  • tidbits
    Your analysis is correct, Kathy. The additional wild cards are availability across the borders and offshore. Prior to Roe, safe abortion was the province of the rich or those lucky enough to live in a state where it was legal.

    In a practical sense, the genie is out of the bottle on abortion and has been for decades. That did play a part in Roe v. Wade, and it's why even some of us who are Troglodilian in our views on the underlying moral issue do not see value in overturning Roe. Truth is abortion should remain safe and legal not because of any moral argument, but because the practical alternative is unacceptable.
  • ProfElwood
    "ask for some clarification on others."
    Understandable, this has got to be one of my more "off the wall" ideas.

    "Legally, it is. It's called viability, and the medical establishment considers ..."
    There's bunch of different answers with different principles behind them. GreenDreams brought up the constitutional definition (birth), JeffersonDavis uses synapse viability, if I remember right, and, of course, there's the conception group. All of them have good arguments on their side.

    "arguing over whether the kid dies legally or illegally."
    I'm not talking about anything medical here, just that the law has effective limits. Speeding, drug use, prostitution, office gambling, and a host of other things are illegal, but because they don't directly impact another person, the law really can't stop them. The kid is obviously affected, but, quite often, no one knows that the mother is pregnant, or at least, no one who would turn the mother in. Yes, late term pregnancies are more of an exception, not just because they're more difficult, but also because the pregnancy is harder to hide.

    "Sometimes those reason include..."
    Take a look at your list again: not being capable of supporting a child, and just not ready to be a parent are both saying that she can't afford it. Right now, couples will pay $30,000 and more to adopt a child from overseas, since the US market (I'm using that word on purpose) is limited to freewill donors. Although some states allows couples to cover certain expenses for the mother, it's hard to encode into law what all of those expenses might be.

    "there are huge moral issues involved here . . ."
    You think? Between adoption and abortion, I'd rather deal with the moral problems of adoption.

    "women getting pregnant on purpose in order to sell their kids,"
    If these kinds of problems really concern you, then are you concerned with AFDC encouraging girls to get pregnant in order to get the payments? The law currently sets the profit (again, I'm using that word on purpose) at $0. It could set at a different level into order to curb the worst abuses.

    "This doesn't take into account the fact that giving up your child for adoption is generally way more traumatic than having an early-term abortion."
    We were looking at adoption before we went through infertility treatments. Quite often, a baby adoption works like a divorce, with the mother getting visiting rights and choosing the parents, so that she knows how the kid turned out. I think you may have the "trauma" thing backward, unless you have statistics to contrary.

    "This is why I'm pro-choice".
    I'm more anti-law, since I think the unborn have some rights (even if they're not constitutional, GreenDreams) also. Rights aren't rights at all if they harm someone else, so I can't support abortions as a right without diluting the meaning of the word.
  • JeffersonDavis
    I agree in the spirit of Tidbits argument of rationality. But I can actually get behind your state-to-state (pre-RowVWade) idea. As long as none of my federal taxes go to abortion, I'd be willing to let it go state to state. It has worked with same-sex unions thus far. You may be right. Leave all social issues to the states. That's a compromise I can live with.

    I would be willing to bet that Kathy Kattenburg will poop in her pants when she reads that.

    LOL
  • JeffersonDavis
    "but throwing abortion as an issue back to the states will not satisfy opponents of legal abortion because the inevitable outcome of women flocking to the states where abortion is legal "

    Read my comment. You may be pleasantly surprised.
    As far as the flocking goes. You can require that abortion clients be legal residents of that state. If a "liberal minded" woman wants to get an abortion - she can actually MOVE to that state - and preferably stay there.
  • kathykattenburg
    Actually, it doesn't shock me out of my skull that you are fine with giving states the right to determine the legality of abortion. I'm not exactly sure why you thought I would be. It's not a pro-choice position or a liberal position.

    As for residency requirements to have an abortion, obviously that's not going to help a woman who is already pregnant and needs an abortion. And just so you don't come back at me with the same old non sequitur argument, sometimes a woman finds out, after she has conceived a wanted pregnancy, that the pregnancy is not viable for any one of many reasons, or that there are health concerns she was not earlier aware of, or that come up during the pregnancy.

    Aside from the above, I'm not sure how it could possibly be legal to have a residency requirement for abortion services if you're not paying for it with public dollars. If abortion is legal in my state, for example, and a woman travels to New Jersey from Mississippi, where abortion is illegal, assuming she can afford to pay for the abortion herself, how could a state government require her to be a legal resident before she could have one?

    If a "liberal minded" woman wants to get an abortion - she can actually MOVE to that state - and preferably stay there.

    It isn't just "liberal-minded" woman who need abortions or choose to have one, although there *are* women who never thought they would ever have an abortion who find at some point in their lives that they have to have one.
  • kathykattenburg
    In a practical sense, the genie is out of the bottle on abortion and has been for decades.

    This is another good point. Although you may not have intended this shade of meaning, what I take from it is that, even if we went back, in a strictly literal and legal sense, to states determining the legality of abortion, women are not going back. Women have had a 35-year taste of individual bodily autonomy, and as a general proposition, they are not going to be willing to return to the days of wire hangers, bottles of bleach, back alleys, kitchen tables, and quack doctors. Been there, done that. Never will do it again.
  • tidbits
    The state-by-state residency requirement is not tenable. If it went back to the states, then it would be up to the individual state to decide whether to have a residency requirement. You can't say it's a state issue, but the feds will impose a state residency requirement. And, states that voted for legal abortion would not impose such a restriction...even if they did, it would be impossible to enforce. Interesting idea. Won't happen. Wouldn't work if it did happen.

    And, it still doesn't account for cross border [Canada] and off shore abortions. As I said before, the genie is out of the bottle, and you just can't put it back in. Leave it legal and argue the morality on an individual basis. The practicalities just don't work to try to get to illegality or even state-by-state, and way too much is at risk, far beyond the abortion issue, in overturning Roe v. Wade.

  • kathykattenburg
    Rights aren't rights at all if they harm someone else, so I can't support abortions as a right without diluting the meaning of the word.

    Do you believe that 5% of the global population have the right to use up a quarter of the planet's fossil fuel resources? The fact that Americans do, harms many someone elses.
  • ProfElwood
    I have to agree (you know, it scares the heck out of me to be agreeing with you and Father_Time on the same day). Of course, encouraging the overuse of oil by subsidizing SUV purchases wasn't exactly a help. I'm certainly no fan of oil dependency or the mid-east wars that it's gotten us into. I believe we've discussed this in more detail on other threads, so I'll leave it at that.
  • kathykattenburg
    (you know, it scares the heck out of me to be agreeing with you and Father_Time on the same day).

    That scares me, too! :-)
  • DLS
    This always has been, and should remain, properly a state and local issue.

    It's also obvious that a majority doesn't approve of an unlimited, absolute federal abortion entitlement.
  • roro80
    "It's also obvious that a majority doesn't approve of an unlimited, absolute federal abortion entitlement"

    No, you're right. Luckily, that doesn't exist, nor is it being proposed by anyone.
  • ProfElwood
    Well, yes, it is. We're discussing that exact thing, at least for the poor, on another abortion thread:

    http://themoderatevoice.com/52754/an-abortion-c...
  • roro80
    I see nothing on that thread that indicates anyone advocating for "unlimited abortion entitlement". Those of us furthest to the left on this issue are merely advocating for keeping the tenets of Roe v Wade as far as legality, and be able to keep abortion on our insurance policies if the insurance companies wish to cover them. And of course they want to cover them -- it's one of the easiest and cheapest forms of preventative medicine as far as they're concerned. That's all a far, far cry from "unlimited absolute federal abortion entitlement".
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