House Passes Health Care Bill But Future Unclear

I'm glad it passed, I hate to see this sort of obstructionism get rewarded. And yes, the Senate is another matter altogether. Too bad republicans haven't been willing to acknowledge the growing problem all these years and actually work with the democrats to craft some sort of effective and reform package. If they had been on board from the beginning instead of being dead weight or worse, then maybe the legislation could be better than it is now. Anyone can get in the way of progress, but it takes effort and commitment to create solutions to difficult problems. This legislation is far from perfect, but it's a necessary step in the right direction. Next the Senate...

Interesting points JS

Although one could argue that if, as a number of conservatives do, you think government run health care is unworkable as a rule, then arguably there is no reason to work with the Democrats since they won't consider any package without it.

I do think the GOP could have worked more to solving the problem but the Democrats (at least in the House) have pretty much said public option or nothing so that does limit the ability of opponents of public option to work with them.

Personally I'm still on the fence on the whole subject.

Couldn't agree with you more, JS.

It's on to the Senate now

Jeopardy Contestant: I'll take Grand Theft for $2.4 Trillion Alex

Alex Trebek: "Free" Healthcare paid for out of other people's wallet

Jeopardy Contestant: What is Pelosicare?

It's a shame that ONE Republican voted for this. Had it been a unanimous "NO" we'd be assured of at least twenty years of "R"espectful, "R"eliable... "D"emocrat controlled government. Reasoned, thoughtful, concerned governance that hasn't been seen since Harry Truman.

Wow, I'm shocked. The Dems actually did something big.

Congratz to them. It's about time.

You know Steve it may surprise you to learn that there are reasonable thoughtful concerned people who just aren't sure that this health care proposal is a good idea.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them bad.

It's a shame that ONE Republican voted for this. Had it been a unanimous "NO" we'd be assured of at least twenty years of "R"espectful, "R"eliable... "D"emocrat controlled government. Reasoned, thoughtful, concerned governance that hasn't been seen since Harry Truman.

Its a shame 35 democrats voted against it, those are seats that will be harder for the GOP to take, the democrats who voted for it who are from moderate districts should fall much more easily in 2012, already widely believed to hold Republican gains instore, even by democratic strategists. Of course that Republican was from former democratic congressman and convicted felon William "Dollar Bill" Jefferson's former district which is overwhelmingly liberal.

We, and our children, and their children, will reap what is being sown.

Unemployment is over 10%. It wasn't supposed to get that high. TARP was supposed to fix that.

Meanwhile today may be the most important vote in Congress since the days of the New Deal. If the health care bill passes, it will fundamentally convert these United States into a different kind of popular democracy, which generally means rule by a unionized bureaucracy organized to vote. Once that much of the economy is run by government, economic recovery as many hope for will simply be impossible.

Permanent unemployment at 7% or so; median income perhaps 10% higher than it is now, but not much higher; and a long period of stagflation. Reluctance to take on new employees, and great incentive to export jobs. Is this a picture of the future? We will have to see, as Congress debates the health care and carbon tax bills.

One of the big debating points is over abortion. That is certainly in important moral point, but the creation of an enormous entitlement overshadows it. At least under this bill, illegal immigrants can't be jailed for not buying government approved health insurance. The rest of us can be. I have no idea what happens to those my age. I gather that it pretty well eliminates the Medicare Advantage that pays most of my Kaiser dues. This all promises to be interesting.

With Detroit a ruin and manufacturing industries on the ropes, small business is the only possible engine of recovery from what they don't call a Depression; so the Congress is going to add an 8% tax on employing people. We already have the longest period of increasing unemployment since the Great Depression; I presume we are going for a really big record setting period of increasing unemployment.

What incentives people have to invest and create new jobs in this environment is pretty murky now; with the health bill there will be fewer incentives to invest in new jobs in the US. The incentives are now to the job black market -- hire illegal immigrants who don't have to have health insurance -- or to export the job if that can possibly be done.

ht: Instapundit

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them bad.

I never said that it did.

The simplistic (when not worse) herd mentality (lack of thinking, among other things) on the "pro" side of this effort continues, here as well as elsewhere.

As for the measure itself, the House lib Dems got their task accomplished, it's relief for them and for Obama, and now it puts pressure on the Senate. Then come those Senate-House negotiations. (The public option likely will survive if the Senate manages to support some kind of it in its own legislation, and then it will just be a matter of the final form it will take, in the conference legislation later, which is less important.)

"With Detroit a ruin" ... just wait until next year. Things have not bottomed yet. (Michigan has misspent stimulus money this year to fill in holes in the budget rather than face reality and make needed changes, and that includes stimulus money that would be otherwise used to fill in the much larger holes everybody expects to see materialize next year here in Michigan. Is this really the kind of behavior by state as well as by the federal government that people of which people approve, or even which people actually want?

"35 democrats voted against it"

No doubt at least some of them had fears for their re-election prospects, or misgivings or objections about the contents of the House bill, which is a reminder that it's not a rubber-stamp routine in the Senate that people should be expecting. The effort overall has regained some "momentum" due to the House lib-Dem victory, but the Senate is of another, fortunately more intelligent and mature, complexion.

Too bad republicans haven't been willing to acknowledge the growing problem all these years and actually work with the democrats to craft some sort of effective and reform package.

That world imply the existence of Republicans who gave a damn about something other than staring wars in which other people's children can be used as cannon fodder and cutting taxes on the wealthiest 5% of the American population.

Well we have a VICTORY even after all that conservadip anti-reform rhetoric and media bravado! Self centered Tea Party tax cry babies can suck this up their confused fat arses. Go home and get a job ya losers.

Now we have the Senate. If it don’t pass there I can guarantee you there will be much fewer “blue dogs” after midterms. Republicans are irrelevant at this point.

Still though, the problem will not be solved until we have a full single payer cradle to grave national healthcare system just like the rest of the modern world. What a wonderful and patriotic accomplishment THAT will be!

Nicely said, partisan.

"If they had been on board from the beginning instead of being dead weight or worse, then maybe the legislation could be better than it is now."

I really really agree with this JS....
I do not, however, agree that they should have just hopped on board and tried to make nice-nice.
They should have attacked this problem when THEY had the majority - but their pockets were being lined by the corporate interests that benefit from inaction.

NOW, we are stuck with a democrat plan whose corporate interests benefit the implementation of Public Healthcare. We traded one set of greedy self-supporting scumbags, for another set of greedy self-supporting scumbags.

If EITHER party was serious about the problems plaguing healthcare, they would have attacked the problems and regulated the industries that keep the cost high - to the benefit of the corporations and parties - and to the detriment of the American people......
Namely: Healthcare industry - insurance industry - trial lawyers - and pharmaceutical industry...

"That world imply the existence of Republicans who gave a damn about something other than staring wars in which other people's children can be used as cannon fodder and cutting taxes on the wealthiest 5% of the American population."

That's a bit unfair to the Republicans. Yes, many many are like that, but many many are not. I'm a democrat, and supported both wars in the beginning. I was also willing to put my butt on the line to go over there and fight it - something few on either side of the aisle are willing to do. Although I do have respect for Biden and Palin (among others) who have children in harm's way in Iraq/Afghanistan. It keeps their mouths and policy in check when their own children may reap the benefit (or malevalence) of their actions.

"Self centered Tea Party tax cry babies can suck this up their confused fat arses. Go home and get a job ya losers."


Well, that's an odd statement, bro.
I would be willing to bet a paycheck that if you compared Tea Party participants to liberal demonstrations, you'd find that much more Tea Partiers have jobs than the liberals do. I could be wrong, of course, but it would be interesting to find out. I attended the Tea Parties, AND I have a well-paying job - in fact everyone I met was employed.

Can't lie AR. Jerry Pournelle's piece gave my wife (who's a dedicated Obama supporter) and I serious pause. I see no letup in unemployment as well. Here in Georgia, 26 banks have failed since August 2008 and 50 more are in trouble. Georgia's heavy real estate angle and local bank protectionism has fostered this environment. But real estate is shot here and the financial system is just stagnant. All the while, work on health care has been the priority (which I feel it shouldn't have). I can't help thinking what $1.2 trillion "real" jobs bill introduced early this year would have accomplished (not a distributed stimulus bill like we had passed earlier).

Didn't Nixon, a Republican, propose some sort of health reform in 1974? And, didn't Kennedy, a Democrat reject it.?
At least at that point both parties realized their was some kind of problem. Both parties are at fault.

You're right dd, and Ted Kennedy regretted that rejection afterwords. You know what they say about hindsight. Funny how Nixon's plan was so progressive it would be considered socialism by present day "conservatives". Apparently the post-Nixon GOP decided that affordable healthcare for all Americans was no longer important though, which is why it's been an ongoing (unsolved) problem.

As for the ailing economy? None of us are seeing the sort of recovery we'd like, but let's remember the rate the economy was plunging (into a depression) when Obama took up the reins and how long it took to get that way. This is not a ship that will turn on a dime. Things could easily be worse had inaction been the course followed. We all like quick fixes, but guess what? It ain't gonna happen this time.

"Self centered Tea Party tax cry babies can suck this up their confused fat arses"

All I can say, is that it's much easier to criticize something when you know nothing about it.

Actually, Leonidas, nobody said health care was free. No one ever said that. So I don't know where you get that from.

How could anybody miss? They scream their stupidity every chance they get.

Alas, nobody cares.

Yes of course. The republicans have destroyed our economy and there is nothing left but Socialism for a prosperous, equitably distributed national wealth. Just like the rest of the modern world.

Uncontrolled Capitalism’s goose is cooked. Have a slice and smile.

Is it nice to only see black and white?

In spite of its monumental failure to bring social peace and material abundance, socialism is enjoying something of a renaissance. From Venezuela to Bolivia to South Africa, government ministers espouse the supposed virtues of socialism. Even in the West, some policies are taking government intervention in the economy to levels unseen in decades. Given the renewed interest in alternatives to capitalism, it is perhaps appropriate to recall the last time that socialism was tried with real gusto.

ht: Instapundit (again)

The US has always worked best when it functioned as a blend of capitalism and socialism. When the balance tips too far one way or the other then we get problems. That said, the limbutts and the beckerheads don't really have a grasp of what the two concepts really are to begin with (or their place in our history), nor are they any better at figuring out what is happening around them present day. Frustration and parroting noise aren't very good subs for actual knowledge and understanding - and only lead to a lot of foolish banter on political forums. Of course I'm not referring to TMV here. ;-)

The United States is already "to far one way". The United States is the most capitalist nation on earth. Unfortunately it's people's standard of living are far down the list from the "most" of anything. It has only been working "best" since WWII due to a lack of competition. Even then, the only way it could stay ahead, for a few decades anyway, was by uncontrolled capitalism. Now, socialism has passed us up and are looking back at us laughing. Classic tortoise and the hare scenario. We are the stupid hare, the socialists are the wise and well prepared tortoise.

To much political diversity results in to much indecision, un-decision, ineptitude, and, waste.

Depends on just what kind of Socialism you are talking about. The Socialism I seek is western European Socialism where the people's standard of living is higher than here. Where 750 million people do NOT want to be like America. Where everybody has healthcare and in Germany, retirement is age 58. Where the unemployed live better than our under employed.

Interesting that you pick third world countries to make your point, not first, or, even second world nations which by using would destroy your point.

Alas, the mechanism of conservative propaganda is revealed. Can’t even get it past the six graders anymore. Must be why you are the minority. Please, join us and be happy! More Harleys in Europe than here! You will love it!

Interesting that you pick third world countries to make your point

What?? Obviously you did not read the article, only my excerpt. It was talking about the previous major attempt at socialism (USSR), its failure, the fact that indeed those small countries are now trying it, and we seem to be headed down a somewhat similar path.

You really need to try and not beclown yourself so much via simple ignorance and laziness.

Before the Federal Reserve and the New Deal, we were both the tortoise and the hare. We now have more people living off of government money than earn it in the private sector. That's a pretty clear indication of the state of "capitalism" in our country.

Oh you must be talking about Social Security. SSI was well planned and would have been completely viable had the conservatives under Reagan not robbed the SSI coffers. I suppose you would just leave these people to die.

The New Deal was the best deal this country ever created. It actually saved capitalism. Without it, there would be a lot of dead capitalists and red flags flying around.

Besides, the addition of government jobs negates your premise. Deductions are taken from government jobs also. The state of our capitalism remains far to much uncontrolled capitalism, which is the very reason for our current economic woes. Out of control greed from undisciplined self serving capitalists.

Right. You need to check real statistics not propaganda crapola. The Europeans are doing just fine and have surpassed our "glorious capitalists" leaving them in the dust.

Business exists everywhere on the planet eons before the United States ever existed. It will exist forever. Separate business from capitalism and suddenly you understand where the excesses lay and why capitalism is now as redundant as Andrew Carnegie.

"Oh you must be talking about Social Security. SSI was well planned and would have been completely viable had the conservatives under Reagan not robbed the SSI coffers."

The SSI coffers were robbed in 1965, under a Democratic president and Democratic congress.

<span class="aptureLink " id="apture_prvw1"><span style="background-position: right -1349px;" class="aptureLinkIcon"> </span>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Ac...</span>

Reagan, by the way, made the biggest increases in welfare of any recent president, as a way of buying off the Democrats for his military spending. He should be your hero.

"The New Deal was the best deal this country ever created. It actually saved capitalism. Without it, there would be a lot of dead capitalists and red flags flying around."
I'll make some popcorn, please tell me the tale.

"Besides, the addition of government jobs negates your premise. Deductions are taken from government jobs also. The state of our capitalism remains far to much uncontrolled capitalism, which is the very reason for our current economic woes. Out of control greed from undisciplined self serving capitalists."
I know you're trying to say something, but somehow, I'm not able to pull an exact meaning out of it. If you're including the bipartisan repeal of Glass-Steagall being a big factor in this downturn, I'd have to agree. Ditto for them lobbying for laws that limit competition, protect industries from normal civil lawsuits, legalize deceptions, limit informed choices, and bail out failures. What kinds of laws do you want passed or repealed?