dr.e

“20.2 per 100,000 people in the military, compared with the civilian rate of 19.5 per 100,000. The Army's suicide rate was 12.7 per 100,000 in 2005, “

That's a significant increase since 2005. And as I mentioned suicide is just the tip of the iceburg. I didn't realized it had increased that much, as I was just comparing it to the civilian rate.

My apologies, and thanks for letting me think through the issue out loud.

Please don't misinterpret my comment. This thread is understandable already very emotional for many and I'm not trying to downplay the problem. I certainly am not surprised that military life is very difficult and would lead to suicides in some people and other mental health issues in many others, which truly is tragic.

But I also want to make sure I'm understanding these numbers. I think we have to put the number in context, so I did some looking around: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28895624/

Army officials calculated the suicide rate at 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, the highest in its history and higher than the civilian rate for the first time since the Vietnam War. According to figures compiled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the civilian suicide rate was 11 per 100,000 Americans in 2004, the last year for which fully adjusted national figures are available.

Exact comparisons could be misleading because the makeup of the Army does not mirror that of American society as a whole. But among the segment of the civilian population that most closely reflects the demographic makeup of the military — males ages 18 to 24 — about 19.8 Americans committed suicide per 100,000 in 2004, CDC figures show.

Again, please don't misunderstand. I absolutely agree that concern for the mental health of our troops is warranted, I'm just not sure that these numbers are really the ones to point to to make that clear. I expect you would see a much greater difference when you look at the numbers for post-duty military (as they deal with PTSD and such) if we had such numbers. And of course just counting suicides doesn't count the large number dealing with mental health issues that thankfully don't commit suicide. I understand that this is an emotional issue and just looking at the numbers is a cold way to look at it (however, in my defense, I'm not the one who brought up the original numbers), but honestly I believe numbers are important to understanding the issue and I don't see these numbers are particularly unexpected.

You know I love ya…

Perhaps this is the start of a longer term trend toward doubt and uncertainty. Let us hope.

And you don't want to hear this, Kathy. But do you know what cause #2 is?
The dimenishment of spirituality within the military.
(source: Navy Times, Vol 78, 2008: quoting the Surgeon General)

That is why the military began pushing spiritual inclusion while in uniform. Don't worry, there's no “go to Church” order here. They merely encourage military members to attend services of some sort (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wicca, etc). Even atheists are encouraged to come together in support groups. This push has resulted in an overal decrease in suicide rates over 4 years of implementation

However, this year has been the worst year in recent memory in terms of suicide among military members. They haven't determined why as of yet. Many theories out there. Could be the mixture of long tours and the economy, and even perhaps an uncertainty in how the Commander-in-Chief will utilize them. Who knows.

I have been thinking about your reply since I got it, as it had a strong reaction for me. I have indeed been looking at this wrong.

My initial reaction was driven by the use of the words 'ultimate sacrifice'. I still have issues with that term being used for those who commit suicide, even with my own background. I cannot shake the feeling it debases the use of it for those who gave their lives performing their duty.

That said, I do think my words were way too strong, and I found myself writing things upon reflection I know I cannot defend.

Cowardice in particular was a very shameful term for me to throw around, as was equating suicides with those who do self-harm to get out of battle.

For those comments, I do feel sorry for saying them.

Jeez Louise.

Honoring the heroes has its place. So does caring for all who serve or have served. And, damn the political leaders who send them to die or be forever diminished in their wars of choice.

I can't argue with that.

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/05/specific…

dr.e

On the other hand, it should be pretty clear that people don't just go and off themselves if their brain chemistry is acting in healthy way. Have you ever done biofeedback? A person can truly change their body processes by focused meditation, and one can stimulate things like alpha waves within the brain with enough practice, one can lower one's blood pressure through daily relaxation; hell, they say just having a dog raises a person's health (by whatever method of measurement they use). Considering we can change all these ways in which our body works (physical, quantifiable effects) by just being happy or relaxed or whatever, why is it a stretch to think that severe emotional trauma might do the opposite?

Valid point.

People may sign up or been lied to and signed up, or been bamboozled and signed– no matter. When a soldier, many are incredibly young people, determines that what they are doing has no meaning and perhaps may even be immoral, they have choices before them…… the healthiest probably choose sociopathic means of escaping, in the biz we call it healthy narcissism, they do what they have to, to put themselves out of the crazy situation (like the soldier who recently shot himself in the shoulder to avoid being redeployed to Afghanistan). There are the honorable ones who try to face down the military, but more often then not they are made to eat crow, and shamed out of service as if they lost their minds, — they didn't. There are those who are able to go out honorably, resigning with protest, like Captain Hoh recently did. Perhaps an arm chair tactician or a simply rigid heartless, perhaps inexperienced soul could label them all to be cowards. I would vouch that it takes a hell of alot more courage than you have imagined to go up against the status quo, even though by training they are supposed to refuse illegal orders. Those who do protest in whatever way they do, likely get the benefit of having stood guard on their own soul and attempted to follow its deep counsel. I suspect the ones that come home most messed up are the one that pitted duty against their own sense of right and wrong. In that case the duty they did does not protect them from their own conscience, thus they suffer and sometimes take their own life, tragically.

I also believe the biological model is only one way to look at depression and should be noted that PTSD is not a mere depression, however debilitating. Science does not have the instruments to measure “soul loss” likely Dr. E, could do a more credible job of explaining that if she cared to.

My friend was trying to get back into combat, as a US mercenary, but was stuck in jail the day before he was supposed to leave. You've assumed that these soldiers are trying to escape combat, but I'm not so sure. I thought that many of these people were home from combat unless they wanted to go back. I do know that many of these people were at home when they killed themselves.

I've also often wondered about how scientists can tell the difference between chemicals that cause depression, and those that are caused by depression.

I will grant that if changes in brain chemistry are occurring, that would be something to consider. Please point me to any studies that show that those chemical changes are occurring, as I would like to read them.

In war, among soldiers who are in shooting killing blowing up wars, it is not 'a small number' of persons who are shocked and their physiological chemistry turned upside down, it is most.

The government has its reasons for dampening and diverting figures and for NOT informing the public about how shock of any kind causes severances of many kind in the body. Persons can have genetic fragilities re balanced brain chemistry … they are born with it and it 'ripens' as they become older, often showing up in late adolescence.

None whether born with, or shocked into critical imbalances, are responsible for sudden surges and losses of balance of brain chemistry and other so very minute trace chemicals in the body that are less than the point of a pencil but make the difference between being at peace and being ever not at rest psychologically, spiritually, and physically.

Spiritual, meaning 'of the spirit' which is the sense a person carries that they have a strong animating force that wants to live, likes to live, cares about their own life and the lives of others. Spirit. Not to mention Mind, Body, Heart, and Soul, as well.

SElf-inflicted wounds 'to get out of' service, is not the issue at hand. Most who want to 'get out of service' just go AWOL, just drive off and dont come back. Until, or unless dragged back. Seen that too, up close, way more than once. Desertion by injury or walking, is a different situation and subject altogether.

I responded because the topic is suicide by vets. I've written about it today at TMV here. http://themoderatevoice.com/51542/veteran-suici…

The battle to be respectful to men and women who served and who are shocked and injured, continues. It ought not be a battle. It is very clear what is authentic shock and what is not. A civvie might not be able to discern, but well trained shrinks who have years in the field can. My field, 40 years, up to the ankles ever in blood. Scar clan.